LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 18, 1971,
9:45 A.M.
-- oOo --
THE COURT: Good morning. I hope it is.
THE JURORS: Good morning.
THE COURT: Gentlemen, such as will listen, good morning.
People against Watson; let the record show all our jurors are present; the defendant and all counsel are present.
LINDA KASABIAN,
Resumed the stand and testified further as follows:
CROSS-EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY MR. BUBRICK:
Q: I think yesterday when we stopped, Mrs. Kasabian, we were just about to start to talk about the events that occurred on the night of the 10th, the trip to the LaBiancas; but before we get into that, may I just invite your attention to a few other questions that I have, prior to starting that?
I want to invite your attention now to the incident that occurred when you left the Tate house and you stopped and the car was stopped so that the people involved might hose off.
Do you recall that?
A: Yes.
Q: And I think you said that Mr. Watson was calm and controlled his faculties and things of that nature; is that correct?
A: Yes, he seemed to be.
Q: How about you, were you calm?
A: I was scared.
Q: Well, but were you calm?
You didn't cry out or do anything like that, did you?
A: No, I didn't say anything.
Q: Did you talk to either of the people that came out, either the man or the woman?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell them, "We have just committed a horrible murder," or something like that?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: And when the gentleman that you described as sixtyish started to approach your car did you join and run with the other three to the car?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: You didn't stay behind?
A: No.
THE COURT: The old man of 60?
MR. BUBRICK: Let's just say that the sixtyish man -- I will withdraw the adjective. I feel closer to that age than otherwise.
Q: Well, at least that gentleman came out and you joined with the other three and you ran to the car; is that correct?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And then when you got down the hill, or wherever it was, at the gas station, I think you told us there was a purchase of gas made at that time.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you say anything to the attendant?
A: No.
Q: Did you stay calm and collected in the presence of the gas station attendant?
A: I didn't say anything to him.
Q: I think you told us also, Mrs. Kasabian, that there were four changes of clothing that were taken when you first started to go to the Tate residence; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, three of them were thrown out; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: How about yours? Did yours stay behind?
A: I never changed.
Q: Did you take the change with you?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: What happened to that?
A: It stayed in the car. I never bothered to change.
Q: When you were told to throw the clothing out, you never threw out the clothing that you had taken to change; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember what happened to it when you got back to the ranch?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see it again?
A: Yes.
Q: When?
A: The next night.
Q: Did you do anything with it the second night, after the second night?
A: Not that I recall.
Q: Did you bring it back to the ranch, if you remember?
A: Yes.
Q: I think you told us that when you left the ranch the night of the 10th Charlie was driving, that is Charlie Manson was driving the car; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were in the front, in the middle of the front seat?
A: Yes, that is right.
Q: And Clem was on the right-hand side of the front seat; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And I take it this was again that Ford without the back seat?
A: Yes.
Q: So there were four people sitting on the floorboard area of the back seat; is that correct?
A: Well, three on the actual floor and one person was another's lap.
Q: And then you started to drive and I think Mr. Manson was driving the car when you left the ranch; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you drove into the Pasadena area?
A: Yes.
Q: And from the Pasadena area you drove where? From the Pasadena area then next you drove to another house, is that correct? Drove around Pasadena area a while and then there was some talk about stopping at a house but Mr. Manson had seen the pictures of children or something?
A: Yes.
Q: That was in Pasadena and then you drove to another area?
A: Still in the same area.
Q: Very close to the first stopping?
A: It was in the Pasadena area.
Q: And then you drove on to a church. Was that also in the Pasadena area?
A: Yes, it was.
Q: From there you then somewhere along the line you took over and drove; is that correct?
A: No. From the church Charlie drove.
Q: Pardon?
A: From the church Charlie drove.
Q: From the church.
Somewhere you got eventually back down onto Sunset Boulevard, didn't you?
A: Yes.
Q: Wee you driving while the car was going westbound on Sunset?
A: Near the end of Sunset Boulevard I remember taking over driving.
Q: Do you remember how far west on Sunset Boulevard you got when you became involved with that white sports car incident that you told us about?
A: How far west?
Q: Yes. Were you down near the ocean somewhere, do you know?
A: I didn't see the ocean but we were down pretty far and the white sports car didn't happen until we turned around and started coming back.
Q: Then you drove from the area on Sunset all the way back across Los Angeles, eastbound; is that correct?
A: I don't know if we went through town, I can't remember.
Q: Well, were you driving when you got to the LaBianca house?
A: Yes.
Q: And had you driven continuously from the time you took over on Sunset until -- and started on the way back until you stopped at LaBianca's?
A: Yes.
Q: How long would you say that trip took?
A: I don't know.
Q: You had a pretty good idea what was going to happen when you were doing that, didn't you?
A: When I was driving?
Q: Yes, when you were driving.
A: I don't quite understand.
Q: Well, did you know that you were going to eventually wind up killing somebody, or were going to --
A: No.
MR. BUGLIOSI: This assumes a fact not in evidence, your Honor, that she is going to kill anyone.
MR. BUBRICK: That the killings might occur.
THE COURT: Her language on direct was, "I knew we were going out to kill"; that was her language on direct.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I think the question said that she was going to kill someone.
THE COURT: She used "we"; "we" were going out to kill.
Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Would you repeat it again?
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: You knew you were going out to kill; at least you had that idea?
A: Yes, I knew that was eventually going to happen.
Q: The car eventually came to a stop in front of the LaBianca house; is that correct?
A: I didn't know whose house it was. I saw Harold True's house.
Q: You recognized the house next door to the LaBianca house, didn't you?
A: Well, I noticed the house across from us on the hill, which was Harold's house.
Q: Was Harold's house on a hill or the house just directly next door to the LaBianca's?
A: Excuse me?
Q: Harold True's house, was his house and the LaBianca house side by side?
A: I don't remember seeing any other house but Harold's.
Q: Well, when you saw the house that you knew was Harold's house, did you drive again to another house --
A: No.
Q: -- to the LaBianca's?
A: No.
Q: When you stopped the car and at what you thought was Harold True's house, that's the last time that you were in that particular area that evening; isn't that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And it was while the car was stopped in front of the house that you recognized as Harold True's house, that Watson, Sadie and Leslie Van Houten got out; is that correct?
A: No, not Sadie; Kate.
Q: I'm sorry, Katie; but those three people got out of the car at the time it was stopped in front of Harold True's house?
A: Immediately after it was stopped?
Q: Well, shortly after that.
A: Yeah.
Q: I think you described the time interval as long as it take to smoke three-quarters of a Pall Mall cigarette; is that correct?
A: Yeah.
Q: Is that about the time that you were parked there?
A: No, that was about the time that they got out of the car.
THE COURT: Excuse me, maybe you are confusing something here.
On her direct testimony she said, "When I got to Harold True's house, Manson walked up the driveway"; is that correct?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Some time after Manson walked up the driveway, he returned to the car.
THE WITNESS: Right.
THE COURT: And after he returned to the car, that's when Leslie, Katie and Tex got out of the car.
THE WITNESS: Right.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: And the time interval that Manson was gone was about as long as it took you to smoke three-quarters of a Pall Mall cigarette; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: But the car was always stationary in front of this Harold True's house; correct?
A: Yes.
Q: You had been to Harold True's house before, hadn't you?
A: Yes.
Q: When, about a year before?
A: Yeah, about a year before.
Q: With whom?
A: Charlie Melton and my husband; Jim and Julie and a few other people.
Q: What had taken place at that time, if you know?
A: We had a party.
Q: What kind of a party?
A: Kind of a party?
Q: Yes.
A: Just a party; and then we -- there was wine, there was drugs and we danced. I remember Harold had a strobe light.
Q: Did you know whether Harold True was living in that house the night you drove up there with Mr. Manson on August the 10th?
A: For a fact, did I know?
Q: Yes.
A: No, I didn't.
Q: You hadn't seen him any time within that one-year interval; is that correct?
A: Yeah, I had seen him once after that.
Q: Well, I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way.
I mean, you hadn't been back to the house within that one-year interval?
A: No.
Q: You said something to Mr. Manson when he started walking up the driveway, didn't you, about that being Harold True's house?
A: Yeah.
Q: What, if anything, did he say?
A: No, he said, "I'm going next door."
Q: Next door?
A: Yeah.
Q: Then after Tex, Leslie and Katie got out, did Manson then get back in the car?
A: Yes.
Q: Then did you drive off immediately?
A: Yeah.
Q: There was some conversation, I take it, between Manson and Tex and the girls; is that correct?
A: Yes, there was.
Q: And when they got out did they take a change of clothes with them?
A: I don't recall seeing anything that they had.
Q: Did you see any weapons on any of the three people?
A: No.
Q: Did you see a gun on any of the three people?
A: No.
Q: All right, then you drove -- after those three people left, you got back in the car and the four of you then drove off; is that correct?
A: I got back in the car?
Q: I'm sorry, Mr. Manson got back in the car.
A: Yes.
Q: And then the four of you drove off?
A: Yes.
Q: Was Mr. Manson driving when you left the area of Harold True's house?
A: Yes, he was.
Q: And where did you then go?
A: I don't know; streets -- I just remember there were streets and houses, not far from where we had been parked.
Q: Well, did you eventually wind up at the beach?
A: Yeah.
Q: You drove all the way back through town again in the area of the ocean; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And then the car was stopped on the hill and you walked around on the beach; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: What happened as you walked with Mr. Manson on the beach?
A: I don't know. He was talking to me and we were holding hands.
Q: Holding hands with Mr. Manson?
A: Yes.
Q: Anything else?
A: I remember I gave him some peanuts.
Q: All right, anything else?
A: I think I told him I was pregnant.
Q: All right.
A: But that's about all.
Q: How did you feel about Mr. Manson at that time?
A: I don't know.
Q: You still were in love with him, weren't you?
A: I don't know. I was really confused.
Q: Do you remember being asked at the last trial:
"Q Wee you in love with him then?
"A Walking on the beach?
"Q Yes.
"A Yes."
Do you remember that?
A: No.
Q: But you do remember testifying in the last trial, do you not?
A: Yes, sure.
Q: And as you walked down the beach with him, hand in hand, you told us about meeting a police office; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you knew that, or you had reason to believe that there was something improper that had taken place at the LaBianca house or the house that you had just left?
A: Yes.
Q: You knew that a killing was taking place?
A: Yeah.
Q: And that Manson had sent the three people in to do the killing?
A: Yeah.
Q: When you walked hand in hand with him on the beach and you saw the police officer, did you tell him that a killing had just occurred or was occurring?
A: No.
Q: Did you say anything at all to the police officer?
A: No.
Q: Manson sort of laughed when he talked to the police officer about whether or not the police officer knew his name, didn't he?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you laugh with Manson?
A: No, I don't think so.
Q: Do you think you were sober?
A: Sober? I don't understand.
Q: Do you think you were very calm and with a sort of a sober expression?
A: I can't really remember how I felt. I don't know -- dead.
Q: Sort of in a jovial mood, Manson was in sort of a jovial mood, wasn't he?
A: Yes.
Q: Weren't you feeling very good walking down the beach with him?
A: Yeah.
Q: So you were probably feeling much as he was feeling; is that correct?
A: I guess so.
Q: As a matter of fact you said:
"Charlie and I started walking hand in hand at the beach and it was sort of nice, you know."
Didn't you say that?
A: Yeah, I can remember he made me feel sort of good inside.
Q: Just sort of made you feel good?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: You didn't feel like a zombie then, did you?
A: No, I guess -- I don't know.
Q: How long would you say you stayed in the area of the beach, Mrs. Kasabian, before you left?
A: I don't know. Not too long.
Q: When you left the area of the beach, did you all leave, all four of you leave at the same time?
A: The area? You mean in the car?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: Who was driving when you left this beach area?
A: Charlie was.
Q: Then I think you told us something yesterday that involved an Israeli or Arab actor, do you remember?
A: Yes.
Q: When did that incident occur with respect to leaving the beach area?
A: Well, however long it took us to get from that beach to Venice Beach.
Q: The incident with this person you have described as an actor occurred about when? When did you meet him for the first time?
A: The day that Sandy and I went down to the beach. I don't know the date. Sometime in July.
Q: Can you give us any idea when it was? Within a week or two weeks?
A: Probably about a week, I guess.
Q: About a week prior?
A: Yes.
Q: How did you happen to meet him?
A: We were hitch-hiking.
Q: Did he give you a ride?
A: Yeah.
Q: Where to?
A: First we stopped at a gas station and then he got some gas and he took us to his apartment and fed us.
Q: To this apartment in Venice, the one you went to on the 10th?
A: To his apartment, yes.
Q: What happened there?
A: We ate, took showers, made love, left, talked.
Q: You, Sandy, and the actor?
A: No. Sandy slept while the actor and I made love.
Q: How long would you say you were there on that occasion?
A: I don't know.
Q: That is the first time you met this gentlemen, I take it?
A: Yes.
Q: Then you left that area -- and I am talking about the night that you met the actor -- did you then eventually get back to the ranch?
A: What? When I was with Sandy?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: How did you get back to the ranch that evening or that day, if you remember?
A: I think he gave us a ride not exactly to the ranch but in the vicinity of the ranch.
Q: When you were driving from the area on the beach where you had been walking hand in hand to the next beach as you have described it, how did the subject involving this actor come about, if you remember?
A: Well, Charlie asked us all if we know anybody at the beach. Everybody said no and then he said to me, he said, "Well, what about that man that you and Sandy met?"
Q: Had you told him about meeting this actor on the prior occasion?
A: Not that I remember, no.
Q: How would he know that you and Sandy had met an actor, if you know?
A: I don't know.
Q: Then he suggested that you kill him; is that correct?
A: Yeah.
Q: Gave you a pocket knife?
A: Yes.
Q: Gave Clem a gun?
A: Yeah.
Q: And you went in back into the house; is that correct?
A: Back into the house?
Q: You went into the apartment then?
A: To the apartment building, yes.
Q: Yes. And I think the first time you went in you went with Mr. Manson; is that correct?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And you knocked on the door on the fourth floor; is that correct?
A: Yes, I think so.
Q: Why was it that you told Mr. Manson that the actor lived in any particular building in the neighborhood?
A: I was afraid.
Q: Afraid of what?
A: Of Charlie.
Q: Well, but he didn't know where this actor lived, did he?
A: No.
Q: And he didn't even know if that was the area, did he?
A: No.
Q: Well, had it occurred to you that you might be jeopardizing somebody's life if you took Manson into that apartment building?
A: I don't know, but when I got into the building I decided to knock on the wrong door. I don't know what my thoughts were.
Q: But the thought never occurred to you not to enter the building at all?
A: Not that I can remember.
Q: Then you went up to the fourth floor with Mr. Manson; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you left and you came back out when whoever responded to your knock appeared and you said something about the wrong person; is that correct?
A: Say that again.
Q: You knocked on the door and somebody responded to the knock; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: That is while Mr. Manson was there?
A: No.
Q: Who was there with you then?
A: Sadie and Clem.
Q: I see. I am sorry. Then you said something about the wrong person?
A: Yes.
Q: And then the three of you left?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: When you got out Mr. Manson was gone at this time, wasn't he?
A: Well, he had left as we were entering the building.
Q: I think you told us you hitch-hiked back up toward this building called the Feed Bin.
A: The house next door to it.
Q: And you stayed there for a little while; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: I think you told us, Linda, Mrs. Kasabian, yesterday also that somewhere along that ride after you left the area of Harold True's house you stopped and you had some milkshakes or something like that.
A: Yes.
Q: When did that occur?
A: Well, right after we left the house and then I was supposed to throw the wallet out but I didn't and we got on the freeway and went to a gas station and I put the wallet in the ladies room. It was right there that we got the milkshake.
Q: This was after this incident involving the stopping at Harold True's house or the LaBianca house?
A: Yes.
Q: I take it you had no trouble getting or drinking your milkshake, did you ?
A: I don't know. I don't know.
Q: But you ate it or drank it?
A: I drank it, yes.
Q: I think you told us that after you got back to the ranch that night you again went to sleep, I take it, and you got there early in the morning, did you?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you sleep the balance of that day?
A: Yes.
Q: And then when was it that Mr. Manson asked you to go to visit some people in jail?
A: I think it was the following day.
Q: And did you come downtown here to visit some people in jail?
A: Well, I made the attempt to visit but I didn't actually see them.
Q: Did you tell anybody in the jail facility what you knew about the murders of the last two nights?
A: No.
Q: You did talk to law enforcement officers, I take it --
A: Yes.
Q: -- when you were in the city?
Then you came into the city on two successive days in an effort to see people in jail; is that correct?
A: Well, I came once to see the people. The next day I was supposed to, but I didn't.
Q: It was the second day, then, that you took the Volvo and left the Los Angeles area; is that correct?
A: Yeah.
Q: And when you left on that second day, you left without Tanya; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, I think you said when you left the ranch you picked up some two men, did you?
A: Boys.
Q: Two boys?
A: Yeah.
Q: Were they people you knew?
A: Well, I had met them the day before. They were hitchhiking and I gave them a ride.
Q: And then what happened, did you tell them you'd be back the next day?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you tell them when you’d be back the next day?
A: I just told them early in the morning.
Q: What time did you leave with Mr. -- with the Volvo?
A: I don’t know what time -- in the morning.
Q: Was it early in the morning?
A: Yeah.
Q: And do you remember where it was that you picked up the other boys?
A: Not the street. I know it was off of Topanga Canyon Boulevard, but I don’t know the street.
Q: And you took them into the New Mexico area with you; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: How are did they go with you, if you remember?
A: To Albuquerque.
Q: And were you using credit cards on that trip?
A: Yes.
Q: Whose credit cards were they?
A: One of the boys had one that was his, it was legal; and we used that most of the time until the Albuquerque incident, then I used the credit card that Bruce Davis gave to me.
Q: And the credit card that Bruce Davis gave to you was one that did not belong to him; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: You know it was stolen, didn’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: The car broke down, I think you told, us in Albuquerque?
A: Yes.
Q: And you had made arrangements to have it towed elsewhere; is that correct?
A: Yeah.
Q: Now, when you started off to Albuquerque, you were going where, to Taos; is that where you were going?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you know your husband, Bob, was there?
A: Not for a fact, no.
Q: When had you last talked to him, if you know?
A: The day I took the money.
Q: That would have been on July the 4th -- July the 5th; right?
A: Yeah.
Q: Now, when you got to the Taos area, you eventually did see your husband; is your correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And was that in the town of Questa?
A: Yes.
Q: You talked with him there, did you?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And you talked with a Joe Sage; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Mr. Sage actually called the family, or the ranch back in Los Angeles, in your presence, didn’t he?
A: Not in my presence, no.
Q: Didn’t you call the ranch from Mr. Sage’s place?
A: Yes.
Q: And you talked to one of the girls back at the ranch in the family, didn’t you?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: As a matter of fact, she accused you of having a big mouth or something like that, didn’t she?
A: Yes.
Q: So that when you talked to -- who did you talk to, incidentally; was it Patty?
A: Yeah, Katie.
Q: When you talked to Katie, then, Katie told you that the family knew that you had told them about the murders on these two succeeding nights, didn’t she?
A: I don’t recall; words to that effect. She just said, “You just couldn’t wait to open your big mouth, could you?”
Q: What was she referring to?
A: I don’t know. I guess -- I don’t know if she told me that, you know, she had spoken to Joe or heard from Joe; but that’s what I figured she knew.
Q: Well, Mr. Sage told you he talked to Manson about what you told him?
A: Yeah.
Q: And then you called after Mr. Sage called, didn’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: And that’s what Sadie -- or, Katie said, “You have a big mouth”?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, at that time, now, you knew that the family knew that you had made a statement about the events that occurred on the 9th or the 10th, didn’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you go to the police then?
A: No.
Q: You eventually came back to the Los Angeles area on two more times -- well, strike that; at least two times from the Taos area, didn’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: How did you get back here on those occasions?
A: By plane.
Q: And who supplied the money?
A: Joe Sage.
Q: How much money did he give you?
A: Plane fare both ways -- four ways; two times.
Q: And what, if anything, were you to do in return for that money?
A: Sort of like be his old lady.
THE COURT: Be what?
THE WITNESS: Be his old lady.
THE COURT: His old lady?
THE WITNESS: Cook for him and things like that.
THE COURT: You mean live with him; is that what you mean?
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
THE COURT: By the way, when you used the expression, “We made love,” what do you mean by that?
THE WITNESS: Well, there’s different terms of making love.
THE COURT: All right, when you say that you made love with this Israeli actor this night that you went there, what do you mean by that?
THE WITNESS: Intercourse.
THE COURT: Sexual intercourse?
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
THE COURT: The night you met Watson, you said you made love to him, you meant sexual intercourse?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: And the next night when you met Manson --
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: So, are we safe in saying, when you say, “We made love,” you meant sexual intercourse?
THE WITNESS: Yeah, in most cases.
THE COURT: Thank you.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: What do you mean, “in most cases,” Mrs. Kasabian?
A: Well, sometimes you can make love with a person just by looking at him or just embracing; it does not have to be a physical intercourse to make love.
Q: Well, you told Mr. Sage -- did your Honor --
THE COURT: No, no, I thought better of it.
Go ahead. I’m sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Bubrick.
MR. BUBRICK: That’s all right.
Q: When Mr. Sage gave you the money, you told him you were going to live with him; is that correct?
A: Yeah.
Q: And he was talking about going to South America, wasn’t he?
A: Yes.
Q: He was going to make a picture or something in South America?
A: Make movies, something like that.
Q: And you told him you’d go to South America with him, didn’t you?
A: I never really committed myself positively to the statement, no.
Q: Well, you never really intended to go to South America with him, did you?
A: Not really, no.
Q: And you never really intended to live with him either, did you?
A: Well, I was living with him.
Q: How long?
A: Probably for about two weeks, three weeks, I’m not really sure.
Q: Was that as long as it took for you to make these trips to Los Angeles and back?
A: Yeah.
Q: Because after you had got Tanya in Los Angeles you never went back there again, did you?
A: I think I stayed for a day or two.
Q: But you never lived with him after that?
A: No.
Q: The real purpose was to get the money from Mr. Sage wasn’t it?
A: I guess so.
Q: Did you call -- strike that.
When you talked to Katie, Mrs. Kasabian, did you find out what had happened to Tanya?
A: I don’t think it was Katie that told me; I think Squeaky told me.
Q: Was this at the time of this telephone call with Katie, however, or did you call later on?
A: I think it was at this time, I’m not really positive at the moment.
Q: Well, whenever it was that you did learn about Tanya, what did you find out had happened to her?
A: That she was in custody.
Q: Well, that she was in a foster home --
A: Yes.
Q: -- or something in Los Angeles -- or, in Malibu?
A: I think she said that the Malibu police were the ones that took her, something like that.
Q: Didn’t you eventually get the name of a social worker?
A: Yes.
Q: And didn’t you talk to that person?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: By phone?
A: Yes.
Q: From where?
A: From New Mexico.
Q: Do you remember that person’s name?
A: No.
Q: Would you recognize it if you heard it?
A: I doubt it.
Q: Does Kroeger, Armond Kroeger, sound familiar?
A: I know a Kroeger, but not an Armond Kroeger.
Q: Well, do you know the name Kroeger in association with the social worker?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember talking to Mr. Kroeger about Tanya?
A: If that’s who the social worker’s name was, yes.
Q: Well, do you remember talking to the social worker about the baby?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were asked when you had left Tanya behind, weren’t you?
A: I guess so; I don’t know.
Q: Do you remember what you told him?
A: No.
Q: Well, you told him you left the baby on August the 1st, didn’t you -- or, August the 6th?
A: I don’t remember. I don’t know. I don’t remember.
Q: I beg your pardon. I didn’t mean the 1st, I misled you there; the date was the 6th or 7th of August?
A: That’s what I said?
Q: Yes.
A: I don’t recall.
Q: Well, do you remember the question at the last trial:
“Did you tell Mr. Kruger that ‘On the 6th or 7th of August I left Tanya with Mary Brunner and went to Arizona to meet my husband?
“A Yes, I think I did.
“Q And so when you stated that you know that was an untruth?
“A Yes, that is obvious.”
Do you remember those questions and that answer?
A: Yes; yeah, but I don’t remember if I said it was the 6th or 7th. I don’t remember if that’s the date that I said. I don’t know what date I said.
Q: You mean you think the record might be wrong?
A: Oh, I don’t know about that; but I don’t remember saying the 6th or 7th.
Q: But you do remember testifying at the last trial?
A: Yeah.
Q: Now, eventually you came into the Los Angeles area and made a court appearance, didn’t you?
A: Excuse me?
Q: You came into Los Angeles in connection with Tanya’s custody and you made an appearance in court.
A: Yes.
Q: You actually talked to a judge in a courtroom, didn’t you?
A: I guess so, yeah.
Q: Did you tell the judge what you knew had happened on August the 9th or the 10th?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell anybody in the courtroom what had happened on the night of the 10th?
A: No.
Q: I think you told us that eventually -- or, somewhere in connection with these custody proceedings you were directed to a Gary Fleischman; Mr. Gary Fleischman, an attorney; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And the person that directed you to him was a Paul Rosenberg?
A: Not Paul Rosenberg, his wife.
Q: His wife?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you know Mr. Rosenberg?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Who is he?
A: He was a doctor.
Q: He is a psychiatrist?
A: A psychiatrist, yeah.
Q: Had you attended hm professionally?
A: No.
Q: How did you happen to meet him?
A: Oh, right after Tanya was born I remember we took some acid and I was breast feeding and she seemed to, I don’t know, be crying a lot, and I wasn’t sure if it was just within myself that, you know, just normal crying or if the acid had affected her, so I went to see Mr. Rosenberg.
Q: That is Dr. Rosenberg?
A: Yes.
Q: When was Tanya born?
A: March 3rd, 1968.
Q: Now, I think you told us you then left and you got Tanya. You hitchhiked back to Florida; is that correct?
A: I stayed in New Mexico for a while.
Q: Did you hitchhike from here to New Mexico, or did you fly back?
A: From here?
Q: Yes, from Los Angeles to New Mexico.
A: No. I flew back.
Q: Then you hitchhiked from New Mexico to Florida?
A: Yes.
Q: With Tanya?
A: Yes.
Q: How old was Tanya at that time?
A: A year and a half, I guess, something like that.
Q: Do you remember how long it took you to get back to Florida?
A: To Florida? About three days.
Q: And then you stayed with your father for a while, did you, in Florida?
A: In his apartment, yes.
Q: And then eventually you went on back to New Hampshire?
A: Yes.
Q: When you got back to New Hampshire, you knew there was a warrant outstanding for your arrest, didn’t you?
A: When I first got back?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: Didn’t you read it in the paper?
A: No.
Q: How long were you there before you read about it in the paper?
A: I don’t know -- a couple of weeks. I am not real sure of the time.
THE COURT: I think you have told us you gave yourself up in December of 1969?
THE WITNESS: Yes, the first part of December.
THE COURT: How long before that did you know, or did you learn a warrant had been issued for your arrest?
THE WITNESS: The night before.
THE COURT: The night before?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Had you read about it in the paper before you knew the warrant was outstanding?
A: No. I heard it over the radio.
Q: When was that, with respect to the date that you turned yourself in?
A: The night before.
Q: So that you heard on the radio that you were wanted is that correct, the night before?
A: Yes.
Q: And you knew a warrant was outstanding for you at the same time?
A: I don’t know.
Q: The night before?
A: I didn’t know about a warrant. I read it in the newspaper the next day.
THE COURT: That is when your mother showed you the newspaper?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: And then when was it that you actually went to the police department?
A: My mother went that day, the next day.
Q: Did you go with her?
A: No. I stayed at the house.
Q: When did you go?
A: To my town police station?
Q: Yes, wherever you were taken in custody.
A: That day.
Q: There in New Hampshire?
A: Yes.
Q: When you were taken into custody, were you interrogated by any police officers?
A: No.
Q: When was it that you were questioned about the Tate-LaBianca murders for the first time, if you know?
A: I think a few questions were asked of me back in New Hampshire but I never gave answers. I didn’t talk to anybody but as soon as I got to Los Angeles, I told my attorney.
Q: That is Mr. Fleischman?
A: Yes.
Q: You were brought back to Los Angeles by some police officers from the Los Angeles Police Department, weren’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: Was Mr. Gutierrez one of them, if you remember?
A: No.
Q: Whoever he was, did you talk to him about the Tate-LaBianca murders on the way back to Los Angeles?
A: No.
Q: Your only concern was to tell the truth, was it?
A: Yeah.
Q: You wanted everybody to know about the truth?
A: Yeah, I wanted to get it over with.
Q: When was it that you made a statement to the police for the first time in connection with what you actually knew about the murders?
A: I think the first time was with Mr. Bugliosi. I am not real sure right now.
Q: Now, you surrendered yourself to the police back in New Hampshire in early December of 1969; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember when you came back here to Los Angeles?
A: I think it was the next day.
Q: All right. If we can say then December 2nd or 3rd, if we can use that as a point of reference. When was it that you talked to Mr. Bugliosi for the first time?
A: I guess maybe January or February. I was still pregnant. That is about the only way I can really tell as to time.
Q: Roughly, a period of some two months, would you say?
A: Yes, I think so.
Q: Now, did you talk to anybody in law enforcement before you talked to Mr. Bugliosi?
A: I don’t think so. I don’t remember.
Q: Now, did you talk to Mr. Bugliosi after you were given or promised some immunity?
A: I don’t think so. I am not sure.
Q: Did Mr. Bugliosi tell you that if you would testify you would be granted immunity?
A: Yeah, I think it was then, something like that. I am not real sure.
Q: But you never talked to anybody in law enforcement before you knew you were going to be granted immunity?
A: I don’t think so.
Q: Can you tell us about how many times you think you may have talked to Mr. Bugliosi or members of his staff?
A: Quite a few times.
Q: What would that mean in terms of numbers?
A: Up to what point?
Q: Until today.
A: Until today?
Q: Yes.
A: Gosh, I don’t know. Lots of times.
Q: As many as 10, maybe?
A: More than 10.
Q: More than 10?
A: I guess so.
MR. BUGLIOSI: This is an ambiguous question. Talk? I spoke to her five times this morning.
MR. BUBRICK: I am sorry.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Talked about the murders or what?
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Yes. Only about the murders. I don’t care about any social visits you may have had.
MR. BUGLIOSI: We will object to that question.
MR. BUBRICK: I am sorry.
THE COURT: You know he was not serious about that.
MR. BUBRICK: I am sorry.
Q: I don’t mean times when you might have been talking about the weather or if you had, you know, if you were in the middle of a conference and he had to take time out for lunch. I am not interested. I want to know about how many times you might have talked to him about the facts of the Tate-LaBianca murders.
A: A lot of times. Twenty, I guess. I don’t know.
Q: Did you talk to anybody other than Mr. Bugliosi about the facts of these murders, if you can remember?
A: Yeah.
Q: To Mr. Stovitz?
A: Yeah.
Q: How many times with him? Again, about the facts of the murders?
A: It wasn’t really about the facts. I had one meeting with him but it wasn’t about the facts as I recall. I can’t really remember sitting down with Mr. Stovitz and talking.
Q: Was there a time when he showed you a lot of photographs?
A: Yeah.
Q: And they were pictures of members of the family, weren’t they?
A: Yes.
Q: So that was a discussion about the facts of the murders, wasn’t it?
A: Yes.
Q: Did that happen on more than one occasion?
A: The first day that I got into Los Angeles, he showed me pictures.
Q: Was he the first person you talked to rather than Mr. Bugliosi about the facts of this case?
A: Well, pictures, yes.
Q: And how about police officers that might have seen you when Mr. Bugliosi was not present?
A: Well, after I spoke to Mr. Stovitz I spoke to Mr. Patchett, not about the case, though, just with reference to my background and stuff like that.
THE COURT: Mr. who?
THE WITNESS: Mr. Patchett.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Frank Patchett, for the record, Sgt. Frank Patchett of the Los Angeles Police Department.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Anyone else that you can think of?
A: Before I spoke to Mr. Bugliosi?
Q: Yes.
A: I don’t think so.
Q: Did you talk to officers after you talked to Mr. Bugliosi?
A: Yes.
Q: Oh how many occasions, if you can remember? Again about the facts of this case.
A: Not quite as many as I had with Mr. Bugliosi, but a number of times.
Q: And were those on occasions when Mr. Bugliosi might not have been present?
A: Yeah.
Q: Do you remember where the conversations occurred?
A: At the jail, at the last trial, outside of jail.
Q: Were you in custody during the entire last trial?
A: Not the whole trial, no.
Q: When were you released from custody? Do you remember?
A: The date?
Q: Well, with respect to the trial’s conclusion, if you know.
THE COURT: Connected with some event that may have occurred? That might help. Do you remember you testified, you were on the stand for quite some time.
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
THE COURT: Were you released after that or before that?
THE WITNESS: I was released before I got off -- yes, before I got off the stand.
THE COURT: You already had started to testify before you were released. Is that when you were released?
THE WITNESS: I wasn’t through testimony before I was released.
THE COURT: In other words, while you were testifying you were released from custody; is that what you mean?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: I just have a few more questions, Mrs. Kasabian. You told us yesterday when you started that Mr. Watson looked about the same now as he looked at the ranch for a while; is that correct?
A: Looked the same?
Q: Yes, looks about the same now.
MR. BUGLIOSI: That is a misstatement, your Honor.
THE COURT: No. That was rather ambiguous. She said, “I see his eyes but he is much thinner now.”
MR. BUGLIOSI: Also his mouth is open now I believe she testified.
THE COURT: Yes, and the mouth was open.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Were you aware of his mouth being open, Mrs. Kasabian?
A: Yesterday?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: When did you first become aware of that?
A: The first time I looked at him, I guess. I don’t know.
Q: Was it before Mr. Bugliosi mentioned it in court?
A: No, because I hadn’t seen him.
Q: He drew your attention to it?
A: Yes.
Q: Had he drawn your attention to it before you took the witness stand?
A: Yes.
Q: He told you that before he got on the stand, in other words; is that correct?
A: Explained to me some medical problem.
Q: That his mouth was drooping or open?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, you also told us yesterday that he is thinner now than he was at the ranch.
A: Yeah, a lot thinner.
Q: A lot thinner?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, of the four people -- let’s limit it to three people now -- going to invite your attention to the night of the Tate affair, on the 9th of August.
Aside from yourself, how would you say Mr. Watson compared in size to the other two girls?
A: To the other girls?
Q: Yes.
A: A lot taller.
Q: How about in terms of weight?
A: More weight.
Q: And how about in body size? Was he bigger than the other girls?
A: I don’t understand.
THE COURT: Like Katie and Sadie.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Yes, including yourself.
A: Just one other girl, Leslie.
Q: But she was there only on the 10th, is that correct? Talking about the first night.
A: The first night. What was your other question?
Q: Yes. Is he any bigger in the body than the other girls?
A: Well, he was taller. His legs are longer and his arms are longer.
Q: How about his waist?
A: I don’t know. I guess his waist would be bigger too.
MR. BUBRICK: I wonder if we could get those trousers we had yesterday.
THE COURT: By the way, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, while Mr. Bubrick is looking for those trousers, when Mr. Bubrick referred to socializing, he at no time intended to infer that Mr. Bugliosi did socialize with the defendant at any time and please lest there be anybody suspect anything, nothing like that occurred. It was just a misstatement of facts.
MR. BUBRICK: Thank you. I certainly didn’t intend to imply anything different.
Q: Mrs. Kasabian, I have three pair of trousers that have heretofore been introduced in evidence. I will lay them on the table before you.
Two of them appear to have the same waist and the third pair, the one on top, is obviously much smaller.
Can you tell me which of the three pairs of trousers Mr. Watson were?
A: I don’t know definitely what pair it was.
Q: But you are certain it was one of the three?
A: Have to be one of the two because I am sure this (indicating) wouldn’t fit.
Q: You think either the black ones or the blue jeans?
A: Yes.
Q: Can you tell us which of the girls was the smallest of the three?
A: Sadie was.
Q: So that Sadie might well have worn the very small pair of blue jeans?
A: Yes.
Q: And then the other girls, or Tex, would have worn either one of these two pairs of trousers?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you have any idea what Tex might have weighed when he was back at the ranch?
A: No, I have no idea.
Q: Do you know or can you tell us what the principal diet was at the ranch, what you ate by way of food?
A: Fruit and vegetables, brown rice, candy, ice cream.
Q: What did Mr. Watson eat, if you know?
A: The same as everybody else.
Q: Fruit?
A: Vegetables.
Q: And brown rice?
A: Yes.
Q: No meat?
A: No.
Q: No potatoes?
A: I don’t recall of eating potatoes, no.
Q: How about bread and butter?
A: Yes. There was bread there.
Q: Did Mr. Watson eat bread?
A: I can’t account if I ever seen him eat a piece of bread. Everybody at just about everything.
MR. BUBRICK: May I have a minute, please?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: I have a couple of random thoughts here, Mrs. Kasabian.
When you left the ranch after the LaBianca affair, did you tell the owner of the Volvo you were taking his car?
A: The day that I left for good?
Q: Yes.
A: I don’t recall ever saying.
Q: That’s Mr. Hannum, was he the owner of the Volvo?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see him the day you took the car?
A: Yes.
Q: You left early in the morning; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Was he up and about?
A: Mm-hmm.
Q: Did you tell him that you were going to leave with his car?
A: I don’t recall ever saying that.
Q: And did you get the key from him?
A: Maybe; I’m not really sure.
Q: Did you tell him you were going out of the City of Los Angeles with it?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell him you were going to Albuquerque with it?
A: No.
Q: When was Angel born, Mrs. Kasabian?
A: March 9, 1970.
Q: And that was, of course, after you were back here in Los Angeles?
A: Yes.
Q: When you were back in Taos, did you tell Mr. Sage about the murders?
A: Not in great detail, but --
Q: What did you tell him, if you remember?
A: I just remember saying that I had seen these people be killed and I knew who did it.
Q: Then you what?
A: I knew who did it.
Q: You knew who did it? Anything else you remember?
THE COURT: You are dropping your voice again, Mrs. Kasabian, please.
THE WITNESS: I am sorry.
What was your question?
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Anything else that you remember telling Mr. Sage in connection with the murders?
A: No, not that I can recall right now.
Q: Now, you told us yesterday that there was a sort of a oneness, Mr. Manson and you and the family would feel they were one?
A: Yeah.
Q: Do you remember making such a remark? Can you elaborate on that; can you tell us what that meant to you?
A: Well, just like in perfect tune with one another.
Q: In what?
A: In tune with one another, in harmony, like, no conflicts and things like that.
Q: You mean philosophically you were in tune with one another?
A: I guess on all levels, I don’t know.
Q: Well, did he tell you that he was in your mind?
A: Well, he used to say that, “I’m you and you are me.”
THE COURT: “I am you and you are me?”
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: And did you think of yourself as Manson?
A: I don’t know.
Q: In a philosophical sense, of course?
A: I don’t know.
Q: Had you ever given any thought to his philosophy, as it affected you?
A: At the time?
Q: Yes.
A: I’m not really sure.
Q: Were you influenced by him?
A: Yeah.
Q: Completely?
A: Yeah.
Q: Pretty well under his control?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you do most anything he asked you to do?
A: Just about, yeah.
Q: Was there anything he asked you to do that you didn’t do?
A: Yes.
Q: What?
A: Kill.
Q: Well, aside from that.
A: Not that I can recall right now.
Q: When you left and went to Taos in New Mexico, how long were you gone before you next saw Tanya?
A: Well, I made an appointment to speak to the social worker from New Mexico. I flew to there, -- maybe a week, I’m not really sure of the time.
Q: Did you call at any time within the week to find out about how Tanya was getting along?
A: Well, I just spoke to that social worker over the phone that one time and made a definite date to go and see him; and then once there, I was able to see Tanya.
Q: When you left, you left Tanya behind, didn’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: Weren’t you concerned about Tanya’s welfare?
A: Well, at the time I just really felt that she was going to be okay.
Q: What made you feel that?
A: I don’t know what the word can be used to describe it. I just -- I don’t know, I just felt deeply within myself that she was going to be all right.
Q: Now, you left her back with the very same people that you knew were responsible for a number of murders, didn’t you?
A: Yes.
Q: But in spite of that, you felt that Tanya would be taken care of?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you approve of the way she was being cared for at the stage, as opposed to when you originally got to the ranch?
A: I don’t understand.
Q: Well, this is now some five weeks after you have been at the ranch or the family; is that correct?
A: Yeah.
Q: You told us yesterday that you sort of disapproved of the way Tanya was being taken care of?
A: Yeah.
Q: But I got the impression that’s when you first got to the ranch; maybe I’m wrong?
A: Well, there was certain things that was done with and without me concerning her that I didn’t approve of.
Q: Well, when you joined the family and turned Tanya over you knew it was with the understanding that you were not to care for Tanya, didn’t you?
A: Yeah.
Q: You know that somebody other than the natural mother would take care of the baby?
A: Yeah.
Q: And you agreed to that, didn’t you?
A: Not completely, no.
Q: Well, how did you voice your disagreement?
A: I don’t know if I ever voiced it.
Q: Well, did you ever tell anybody, “I think I would like to take care of Tanya”?
A: No, but I did take care of her at times.
Q: You did do what? I’m sorry, I didn’t hear.
A: I did take care of her at times.
Q: At times.
About how often would you see Tanya while you were at the ranch?
A: At least once a day.
Q: Was she in the same -- did she live in the same area on the ranch that you lived in?
A: Most of the time.
Q: Did you ever tell whoever was taking care of Tanya that you disapproved of the way she was taking care of your child?
A: Not that I can recall.
Q: Did the children, the three youngsters there develop bits and sores of any kind, if you remember?
A: Yeah, everybody did, including the children.
Q: You mean everybody, the adults as well as the children?
A: Some of the adults, not everybody.
Q: Did you ever take Tanya to a doctor during the time that you were at the ranch?
A: No.
Q: Were you concerned about her welfare to that degree; did you think she needed some medical attention?
A: I don’t know if I ever thought about it.
Q: You never thought about that?
A: I remember washing her sores one day.
Q: Washing her sores with what?
A: Soap and wate.
Q: Mrs. Kasabian, did you ever see or observe any member of the family do anything -- refuse to do anything that Manson told them to do?
A: Not that I can recall right now.
Q: Well, again, when you say, “Not that I can recall right now,” does that mean that you may have but you just don’t remember now?
A: Yeah.
Q: Or that nobody ever did disobey him?
A: I don’t think so. I can’t remember if anybody did.
Q: Well, you were asked the same question at the last trial and you said, “No, nobody did,” didn’t you?
A: Mm-hmm.
Q: Without any qualification?
A: Mm-hmm.
Q: Because nobody ever did disobey Mr. Manson, did they?
A: Not that I ever saw somebody say, “No, I’m not going to do that or anything like that.”
Q: Did you ever see Mr. Manson tell somebody to do something and that person not do it?
A: I don’t think so.
Q: I think one last question: I think you told us yesterday that you felt dead when you left, came back from the Tate residence; is that correct?
A: I felt dead when I came back?
Q: Yes, when you came back from the Tate residence -- I’m sorry, the LaBianca residence; do you remember that?
A: When I came back for the LaBianca --
Q: Yes, after leaving the LaBianca residence.
A: Back at the ranch?
Q: I think you were at the beach.
A: Yeah, I just felt empty and confused at different times.
Q: Was that before or after you walked along the beach with Mr. Manson?
A: I think at one time on the beach.
Q: While you were walking with him?
A: Mm-hmm.
Q: But I thought he made you feel good and made you forget everything while you walked with him.
A: I remember that, too.
Q: And it was sort of a loving situation, you loved him at that time.
A: He sort of made me feel like, I don’t know, a young love, infatuation kind of thing.
Q: Well, how would you describe yourself, if you can, at the time that you came to the ranch?
A: Describe myself?
Q: Yes, can you -- how would you characterize yourself, if you are able to do that?
A: Well, I guess I was sort of down and out.
Q: Were you impressionable, would you say?
A: Yeah.
Q: Do you think you would consider yourself naive?
A: Yeah.
Q: Did you consider yourself suggestible, amenable to suggestion?
A: Yes, I guess so.
Q: And you were 20 years old; correct?
A: Yeah.
MR. BUBRICK: Roughly 20.
I have nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you want to finish with this witness now, or --
MR. BUGLIOSI: Could we have our recess, your Honor?
THE COURT: At this time we will have our morning recess, ladies and gentlemen.
Once more, do not form or express any opinion in this case; do not discuss it among yourselves or with anybody else and please keep your minds open.
(Recess.)
THE COURT: People against Watson.
Let the record show all jurors, counsel, and the defendant are present.
Miss Kasabian, you are still under oath. Would you state your name, please.
THE WITNESS: Linda Kasabian.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I just have a few more questions.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUGLIOSI:
Q: En route to the Tate residence on the night of the Tate murders, before you wrapped the knives and the revolver up, where were the knives and the revolver in the car?
A: The gun was in the glove box and I think the knives were on the seat, the front seat.
Q: Right next to Tex?
A: Yes, between us.
Q: Between you and Tex?
A: Yes.
Q: The three knives?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, you testified earlier that when Tex walked up the driveway to the Tate residence, he had a rope on his shoulder; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: When he, Sadie, and Katie returned to the car at the bottom of a hill, did Tex have the rope with him at that time?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever see the rope later on that night?
A: No.
Q: At any time on the night of the Tate murders or the night of the LaBianca murders, for that matter, did you see Tex stumble or fall to the ground?
A: No.
Q: When he would talk to you, specifically on the night of the Tate murders, when he had several conversations with you, would he repeat what he said over and over again?
A: No.
Q: For instance, he wouldn’t say, “Wrap the knives and the revolve up, wrap the knives and the revolver up, wrap the knives and the revolve up,” he didn’t talk to you like that?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever creep crawl, as you explain it, into anyone’s home in the day or night to take anything?
A: You mean sneak, creep crawl? No.
Q: Into someone’s home.
A: No.
Q: Could you briefly explain, an LSD experience or trip?
Do they call an experience a trip?
A: Yeah.
Q: Could you briefly explain an LSD trip?
MR. BUBRICK: I am going to object to that as being improper redirect.
MR. BUGLIOSI: They went into this on cross-examination.
THE COURT: She may explain her reaction.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Right.
THE COURT: You may explain yours; tell us what you took, how much of it --
THE WITNESS: Do you just want me to recall a specific --
THE COURT: I don’t know.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Well, the typical LSD trip, could you briefly explain it to the judge and jury, how it affected you?
MR. BUBRICK: I am going to object to the word “typical.” I don’t know if that would be a typical reaction.
MR. BUGLIOSI: We are talking about her.
THE COURT: That’s why I asked her to tell how much she took, when it was, what time of day it was.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I’m not --
THE COURT: Because there is no such thing as a typical one, as I understand it.
MR. BUGLIOSI: There might be, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: It is only in relation to me.
THE COURT: Only in relation to you.
THE WITNESS: I can’t say what it is to somebody else.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I am only talking about Mrs. Kasabian.
THE COURT: You tell us how much you took and what it was and its reaction on you.
THE WITNESS: Well, I am going to have to recall a specific trip now.
I remember I took a tab of what is referred to as pure Owsley acid; it was called “white lightning.”
THE COURT: “White lightning”?
THE WITNESS: White lightning, yes.
And it was a very small white tablet and a pharmaceutical; and it was extremely intense, vivid colors, things were like flowing, on the physical -- I’m talking about physical objects, things would sort of bend into each other and blend out of each other, and also it was like a very intense journey into myself, into my own mind, in my thoughts, and things like that.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Well, would you say that normally during an LSD trip, you would look inwards into yourself?
A: Yes.
Q: You’d become introspective, as it were?
A: Yeah.
Q: Try to analyze yourself?
A: Not so much analyze, just mostly ask questions.
Q: Ask questions of yourself?
A: Yeah.
Q: Searching for answers?
A: Yes.
Q: And during an LSD trip, would you normally be more aware of things around you?
A: Yeah.
Q: Colors would be brighter, more intense?
A: Yes.
Q: Tell me this, during an LSD trip did you ever see an object that wasn’t in fact there?
A: Not that I can recall, no.
Q: So everything you saw during a trip was actually there?
A: Yeah.
Q: But there would be a certain distortion in terms of color, intensity, size, things like that?
A: Yeah.
Q: After you came down off the trip, would you have any difficulty remembering what took place during the LSD trip?
A: Not usually.
Q: You could remember what happened?
A: Yeah.
Q: In detail?
A: Well, just only the most vivid things, you know, that impressed on me.
Q: When you first came out here to Los Angeles after you were extradited, that is in early December 1969, did you want to tell the authorities what happened on these two nights?
MR. BUBRICK: Objected to as calling for the conclusion of the witness.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Why didn’t you, Linda?
A: I had two attorneys and they instructed me not to talk to anybody about it and I didn’t.
MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BUBRICK:
Q: Mrs. Kasabian, you were telling us about an LSD experience that you had with pharmaceutical LSD.
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know what dose it was?
A: Milligrams or whatever?
Q: Yes, in milligrams.
A: No, I don’t think so.
Q: How did you take it?
A: Through the mouth.
Q: Was it a liquid that you took?
A: No. It was a small tablet.
Q: Do you know what a normal dose of LSD is in milligrams?
A: About 500, I would say.
Q: 500 milligrams?
A: Yeah.
Q: How about in micrograms?
A: Wait. Milligrams and micrograms I don’t know.
Q: You mean they might be both the same to you?
A: Yes. I don’t know. I have heard the terms but I don’t know the difference between the two.
Q: In your experience, Mrs. Kasabian, did you ever learn how many normal doses of LSD could be made out of an ounce?
A: No.
Q: You have no idea of the number that could be made out of an ounce?
A: No.
Q: And is it your experience that all LSD reacts the same way with the person who takes it?
A: No, not necessarily.
Q: And is it your experience that pharmaceutical LSD is the same as street type LSD?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever take any street type LSD?
A: Oh, sure.
Q: And was your reaction the same as the pharmaceutical LSD?
A: No.
Q: What does the term street type LSD mean to you?
A: Sort of not pure, cut with, you know, with other things other than acid.
Q: Do you know what things, what they use to cut LSD with on the street?
A: For a while it was being cut with speed.
Q: That is Methedrine?
A: Yes. And, I don’t know, it would be cut with various amounts of other drugs.
Q: Had you ever heard of it being cut with strychnine?
A: Yes.
Q: Anything else that you can think of it’s being cut with?
A: No, not that I can recall.
Q: But you say that when you took the pharmaceutical LSD trip, that you told us about, that objects were floating around.
A: Floating around?
Q: Yes. Is that an expression you used? Physical objects were floating?
THE COURT: Flowing and blending.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: I beg your pardon. Flowing. Things were sort of merging together?
A: Yes.
Q: Then would they separate in your mind?
A: I don’t quite understand.
Q: Well, would everything in the room sort of consolidate, all things flow on into the other?
A: Sort of, yes.
Q: Would they stay that way?
A: No. You know, I don’t know, a motion like this (demonstrating) is all that I can tell you.
Q: The objects in the room were sort of in and out of one another too; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Isn’t that really the way you remember the experience after the trip is over?
A: Yeah.
Q: You remember some things and then you don’t remember others; is that correct?
A: Yeah.
Q: How long does a trip last?
A: I don’t know. I have been told some people never come down but the actual feeling of the chemical drug in your body is anywhere from eight to twelve hours.
Q: You say that you never had a strip where you imagine things being present that weren’t present; is that correct?
A: No, not that I can recall.
Q: Have you ever had such an experience where you imagine things present in a room?
A: No. I felt what I imagined to be the presence of a spirit, God.
Q: Physical presence with you?
A: No, not -- well, it is hard to explain. It is just not, you know, an image, a physical image kind of thing, but just, I don’t know, a feeling of a presence near me.
Q: Of some imaginary force?
A: I don’t know if it was imaginary or real.
Q: Did you see anybody else in the room when you were on this trip?
A: You are not understanding me and I am not understanding you.
Q: Have you ever taken an LSD trip in an empty room, for example?
A: Not that I can recall right now.
Q: What are you trying to convey about this feeling or the image of somebody else being present?
A: I don’t mean an image, a physical image. I mean the feeling of a presence near me within a room. Some people just say it is a spirit. Some people would call it God. That is what I mean.
I don’t mean like I am not seeing you there, and I am on an acid trip, and I am imagining that you are there but I don’t even see you. I don’t see the physical person or the spirit or presence, whatever it is that I am feeling.
THE COURT: Did you ever feel like somebody was staring at you without actually seeing that person?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: In other words, you felt a presence but could not touch or see it?
THE WITNESS: Right.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Was there anything other than just a feeling of the presence of some other force or anything else that you want to call it being in the room with you?
A: I don’t understand.
Q: Was it anything other than this presence that you described?
I take it this is some sort of a sensation that you have; is that correct?
A: Sensation?
Q: Yes, you have a feeling that there is a presence of something else, or somebody else?
A: Yeah, I guess so.
Q: Well, as the judge -- it is nothing you can reach out and touch?
A: Right.
Q: Well, that’s what I mean, you have a feeling as if there is something else there that you can’t see or hear?
A: Right.
Q: Did you ever communicate in whatever manner you do with that force?
A: No, I don’t think so.
Q: Does that force ever communicate with you in an LSD experience?
A: Yeah, I have heard one particular instance that was very vivid in my mind and I felt as though, well, I was asking a question and I was searching and I received an answer.
Q: You mean you actually -- you actually felt as if there was somebody talking to you; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And you could understand this on a conscious level?
A: I guess so.
Q: Well --
A: I was able to relate it to another person.
Q: In other words, after the LSD experience was over, you still remembered?
A: Yes; I still remember.
Q: The question and the answer or the response that you got?
A: Yes.
Q: And this was at a time when, of course, there was just a force present, rather than a finite being of any sort?
A: I didn’t see any being, no.
Q: There was not a human being present?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever have an LSD experience in a room where the furniture seemed to float around?
A: No.
Q: Nothing ever became detached and moved around in space?
A: No, I didn’t see -- no.
MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further, your Honor.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Just one more question, your Honor.
FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUGLIOSI:
Q: The feeling of looking inward and the intensity of colors and the flowing of objects, et cetera, did you experience this with street LSD as well as with the pharmaceutical LSD?
A: Yeah, you know, it’s like par for the course when you take acid, that you know --
Q: This is a normal experience, to look inward?
A: Yeah.
Q: To ask yourself questions?
A: Yeah.
Q: To be more aware of things around you?
A: Depending on the acid, you know, different awareness and levels.
Q: Different levels of intensity, depending on the acid?
A: Yeah.
MR. BUGLIOSI: No more questions.
THE COURT: I have one, Mrs. Kasabian.
Just forget about this acid experience now; we’ll take you back to something else.
Yesterday you told us before you went to the LaBianca home, do you recall, you saw Tex take a white capsule of some kind?
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
THE COURT: And then you said that during the events that were there he was coherent -- well, this is the Tate, I mean -- the Tate, coming back to the Tate thing; that’s when he took the capsule; is that right?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: At the LaBianca?
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
THE COURT: You also said he appeared coherent to you, “But he acted crazy when I saw him stabbing.”
Now, you saw him stabbing only at the Tate place; isn’t that correct?
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
THE COURT: Describe what you meant by “he acted crazy when I saw him stabbing.”
THE WITNESS: Well, just the motions that he was going through in stabbing.
THE COURT: Well, just describe that to us.
THE WITNESS: In words?
THE COURT: Well, we weren’t there, Mrs. Kasabian.
THE WITNESS: You want me to show you what I saw?
THE COURT: Show or describe or tell us what you meant when you said by “he acted crazy.”
THE WITNESS: He was stabbing, going like this, and this, and this, and this.
THE COURT: Repeated stabbing?
THE WITNESS: Yeah.
THE COURT: Was he saying anything?
THE WITNESS: I didn’t hear words, no.
THE COURT: Did you see his face at that time?
THE WITNESS: I don’t recall it, no.
THE COURT: Then you feel that just by the repeated stabbings, that’s what you meant by “acting crazy”?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: I have nothing further, gentlemen.
MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions, you Honor.
MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further.
THE COURT: Gentlemen, approach the bench, please.
(Unreported discussion between the Court and counsel.)
(The following proceedings were had in open court in the presence of the jury:)
MR. BUGLIOSI: May the witness be excused, your Honor?
THE COURT: All right, Mrs. Kasabian, you may be excused.
