LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 28, 1971
10:25 A.M.
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THE COURT: Good morning.
THE JURORS: Good morning.
THE COURT: Gentlemen.
Let the record show all jurors are present; all counsel, defendant present.
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we are getting a rather late start this morning, but we were not twiddling our thumbs. We were discussing matters of law in chambers, so we were busy.
Mr. Bubrick, are you ready to proceed?
MR. BUBRICK: I am, your Honor.
Mr. Watson, would you resume the stand, please.
THE CLERK: Retake the stand, please. You have been previously sworn.
CHARLES WATSON,
the defendant herein, called as a witness in his own behalf in surrebuttal, having been previously duly sworn, testified as follows:
THE CLERK: Would you restate your name for the record?
THE WITNESS: Charles Watson, W-a-t-s-o-n.
THE CLERK: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUBRICK
Q: Mr. Watson, I think you told us at the time you originally testified that you were back home in Texas during the month of October 1969; is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Did you see any of your friends during that time?
A: No, not during that time.
Q: Do you know Denise Mallett?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see her when you were home in Texas?
A: Not until a little before I went to jail, about a week before I went to jail.
Q: What month of the year would that have been?
A: In November.
Q: That is when you saw Denise?
A: Yes.
Q: You say about a week before you went to jail?
A: I'm not -- somewhere in that period.
Q: Can you tell us whether it was before or after, say, Thanksgiving of 1969, which occurs in November?
A: It was before, I believe.
Q: And do you remember how you happened to see her for the first time?
A: She called up on the phone and I was at home.
Q: Were you in Copeville?
A: Yes. And I talked to her on the phone. She said that she was at her grandmother's house in Farmersville and wanted to know if I could come up of something to that effect.
Q: Up until the time that you heard from Denise and she came over, had you seen any of your other friends in Farmersville or Copeville or the area that you lived in?
A: No.
Q: Had any of your old friends been over to visit you?
A: No.
Q: Had you seen any of thee
A: No.
Q: Then Denise did however come to your home in Copeville, did she?
A: Yes, the following day.
Q: Did she drive?
A: Yes.
Q: She came her own car?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you go out with her that day?
A: Yes, in her car, went to Denton.
Q: Do you remember how you were dressed?
A: No, I don't remember how I was dressed. I know I had a couple of new pair of Levis and a couple of new shirts that my brother bought me.
Q: About how many times would you say you saw Denise when you were in Texas in the month of November 1969?
A: About five times.
Q: What did you talk about? Do you remember?
A: I was mostly talking about the end of the world coming and things to that effect.
Q: Did you talk about California?
A: Yes. I said something that I wanted to get back to California where it would be safe to be in the desert when the world came to an end or something like that
Q: Did Denise say anything about coming to California?
A: She told me that she had been out one time. Yes, she wanted to come and live in California or something. She was up in the air about California, you know, she just liked California she said.
Q: Was there ever a discussion between yourself and Denise about a leader in California., being a leader of some girls or anything of that nature?
A: I talked about, when I told her when I left the desert that it was just another guy and I in the desert with a bunch of girls.
Q: Did you ever mention his name?
A: No, I don't believe so.
Q: Did you tell her that the other boy and you were the leaders of this group?
A: No. I just said that when I left the desert that there was just a couple of guys there, me and another guy there with a bunch of girls.
Q: Do you remember generally what your mood was while you were with Denise?
A: Not really; kind of -- it kind of ranged, you know, from different moods, I think; and around her, though, I was nice, I guess, you know.
Q: She was an oId girl friend, was she?
A: Yes.
Q: Somebody you had known before you had come to California?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. Do you remember being confined in the jail at McKinney?
A: Yes.
Q: And were you being visited regularly by your folks or on any sort of a regular basis by your folks?
A: My mother and my father would come every other day and then on weekends my sister or my brother would come.
Q: How were you treated by the jailers there?
A: Very nice. I never did see much of them, really. You know, my cell was always locked and didn't have bars on the front of the door like most jails. It was just kind of a closed iron room, you know and nobody never saw in or I never saw out, really.
Q: Did you have any food problems while you were there?
A: No, my mother and father brought me food every other day when they would come. They would bring me stuff that I could eat, you know.
Q: How about this spitting, was this a problem with you there in Texas?
A: Not that much. I did a little bit, but getting the right food that I could eat, you know, and I could keep it down pretty good and I didn't have that problem.
Q: What kind of food did you eat in Texas?
A: Juices and dry fruits, fresh fruits and honey and some pickled foods, you know.
Q: What sort of foods have you been eating here in the jail since this trial started?
A: Since the trial started, I have been eating that same kind of stuff there; they are feeding me that kind of stuff now, fresh vegetables and fruit and a lot of juices and dried fruits.
Q: Eating any meat?
A: No.
Q: Potatoes?
A: No.
Q: Bread?
A: No.
Q: Butter or fat of any sort?
A: No.
Q: Oils of any sort?
A: No.
Q: Now, when you left McKinney -- strike that.
While you were in McKinney did you see a lawyer in McKinney?
A: Yes, I had a lawyer there.
Q: And when you left McKinney did he give you any instructions? Don't tell us what they were, just yes or no.
A: Yes, he did,
Q: Now, do you remember coming here to California, being in jail here in Los Angeles County?
A: Huh?
Q: Do you remember being brought here?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember being weighed in at the County Jail?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember what you weighed when they brought you here from Texas?
A: 118.
Q: Do you know how much you weigh today?
A: 121-1/2; I weighed this morning.
Q: Did you ever weigh anything over the range between 118, 120, of thereabouts since you have been in the Los Angeles County --
A: I believe I weighed up to 124 before.
Q: Did you ever weigh in the neighborhood of 160 when you were in the Los Angeles County Jail?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: What sort of treatment did you get while you were in the Los Angeles County Jail?
A: Well, when I first got out here, everybody was calling me Manson.
Q: When you say everybody, who do you mean?
A: The deputies and everybody around my cell was hollering at me, and things like that.
Q: What sort of food were you getting when they first brought you?
A: Oh, meat and potatoes and bread and, stuff like that.
Q: Could you eat that?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell them you couldn't eat it?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you getting any special diets at that time?
A: No.
Q: Were you spitting up?
A: Yes.
Q: Was this part of an act on your part, Mr. Watson?
A: No.
Q: Were you trying to fool these doctors?
A: No.
Q: Trying to deceive them?
A: No.
Q: Were you trying to make them think you were sick when you weren't?
A: No.
Q: Did you want help when you first got here to this County Jail?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember much about the events leading up to your being sent to Atascadero?
A: Not much. I know I was strapped to a bed in the jail.
Q: Do you remember doctors coming and talking with you before you went to Atascadero?
A: Yes.
Q: Then do you remember being sent to Atascadero?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you remember how you were treated when you first got to Atascadero? That is what your sleeping arrangements or accommodations were? Things of that nature.
A: Strapped into a bed again.
Q: For how long? Do you remember?
A: Three days, I believe.
Q: When you say to a bed, did you actually sleep on some kind of a bed?
A: I was strapped to a bed, but after they take you off the bed, I slept on a mat on the floor.
Q: After you were unstrapped from the bed, did you ever have a bed again?
A: No
Q: How did you sleep all the time you were at Atascadero?
A: At first they had me in wrist restraints with my arms tied around my waist and that is the way I would sleep.
Q: On what? On a cot?.
A: No; on the floor.
Q: How long did that last?
A: All the time I was there.
Q: You mean all the period you were at Atascadero you never had a bed after you were initially untied from it?
A: No.
Q: Did you sleep by yourself or in a ward room?
A: Slept in a room by myself.
Q: For how long?
A: All the time I was there.
Q: When you were first taken to Atascadero, you said you were tied to a bed; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: How long did that last, if you can remember?
A: About three days, I believe, or four days.
Q: When you were released from there, do you remember where you went?
A: When I was released from Atascadero?
Q: No, no. When you were released from the bed or from the room where you were tied to the bed?
A: I went to a room right across the hall and it was in the same place as where the bed was in the back part of the isolation or seclusion, they call it, I believe.
Q: Is this also part of an isolation ward?
A: Yes.
Q: What sort of accommodation did you have in that room, if you remember?
A: It was just a bare room with a hole in the floor to use the bathroom in.
Q: And what else -- what did you sleep on there?
A: The floor.
Q: On some sort of a cot or I mean on a pad or something?
A: Yes, a little pad.
Q: Now, you say there was a hole in the floor. Do you mean you had no lavatory facilities?
A: Right. There was just a hole in the floor and a bare room.
Q: How long did you stay in that room?
A: I don't know. It seems like it was about two or three weeks, maybe.
Q: After you left that room, what sort of room did you go to?
A: A room, same kind of a room with a mat and had a commode and a lavatory.
Q: And was it also in the isolation area, if you remember?
A: No. It was out on the ward, which was, you know, locked. That is the only place you could go but --
Q: Do you remember what sort of food you got when you first got there?
A: When I was tied to the bed?
Q: Yes.
A: They fed me some chocolate milk stuff and then I was spoon fed. My hands were strapped to the bed, you know, and they were feeding me, spoon feeding me.
Q: That went on for three days?
A: Yes.
Q: Were you given any medication, as you recall?
A: No.
Q: When you were sleeping in this room that you said had the hole in the floor, were you still in restraints?
A: Yes.
Q: When you were removed from that room into the room where you had some sort of lavatory facilities, were you still in restraints?
A: Yes.
Q: Will you describe the restraints that you were in?
A: They have a piece of leather around each arm and then a belt running to those and then they are tied down to your waist, around your waist, and your arms are hooked down here, so when you eat, you have to go something like this, you know.
Q: Was there a time when the belt was removed from your waist?
A: I don't know how long it stayed on but they removed it after a while, after, I don't know, I guess maybe a month. I don't know, really.
Q: What sort of treatment would you say you received at the hands of the attendants there, the technicians? How did you get along with them?
A: I got along fine with them but for a couple of times, I guess, you would say.
Q: What happened on those occasions?
A: I wouldn't eat some of the stuff that was on the tray and then when I wouldn't do that, one time they took me back in the back and karate chopped me, you know.
Q: Karate chopped you where?
A: Started here and then they --
THE COURT: The throat?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Hitting like this, then they went all the way down to here and they were kneeing with their knee. They would knee me in the mid-section and choke me until they brought me to with oxygen.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Where did this occur?
A: In the back room, in the back part.
Q: Do you remember who this was that did this to you?
A: It was my sponsors.
Q: Would you say his name or their names?
A: Barnett was one of them, one was Weems, and there was two more but I can't remember their names.
Q: Did you do anything at or about the time you received this treatment other than not eat?
A: One time I gave away some food and that was against the rules and I had to write down the rule 100 times.
Q: What was the rule?
A: Something about not supposed to trade or give away food.
Q: Who made you do that?
A: Mr. Williams.
Q: Do you remember anything else that was done about the food problem?
A: They did give me, after, they did give me some peanut butter after a while, you know.
Q: I'm sorry; I meant by way of disciplinary action.
Did they ask you to do anything else because of some violations of the rule by you?
A: I had to stand up against the wall with a dot -- there is a dot on the wall and I had to put my nose to it and stand there. I was on medication and I couldn't stand there, so when I couldn't stand there, when would fall to the floor, that's another time they took me back in the back and kind of banged me around a little bit.
Q: Did you ever bang any of the attendants around?
A: No, I never did do anything.
Q: Did these events occur while you were still in restraints?
A: I'm not for sure. .
Q: Were you trying to deceive the technicians or the doctors at Atascadero?
A: No, not at all.
Q: Were you trying to act as if there was something wrong with you?
A: No.
Q: Did you do this, did you act at Atascadero in a conscious manner; were you consciously trying to do these things?
A: No, I was just myself when I was there.
Q: You weren't trying to act crazy, were you?
A: No
Q: Incidentally, was there some incident where you told Dr. Owre something about, "I could kill you now" or, "I could kill you easily," or something of that nature?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Think has already been gone into, your Honor; repetitive.
THE COURT: I think we have covered that once before.
MR. BUBRICK: Yes, I think I led into that initially, your Honor.
MR. BUGLIOSI: He testified to it, his version of what happened.
MR. BUBRICK: I don't know whether he elaborated on it at the time; your Honor.
THE COURT: I will permit him to answer it.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Do you know when that occurred, Mr. Watson?
A: I believe it was close to right before they sent me back here.
Q: Do you remember where it was in the hospital that this occurred?
A: It was in the back part, the same part as where they would take you, you know.
Q: Who was in the room other than yourself and Dr.Owre?
A: That other doctor that gave me the tests.
Q: Bramwell?
A: I never did know his name.
Q: A psychologist?
A: He gave me those tests.
Q: All right.
A: And two of the technicians, Barnett and Weems; and another guy that had a beard, I remember.
Q: Do you remember what Dr. Owre said to you just before you made that statement to him?
A: No, I can't remember. I know he just said -- they kept calling me Manson, and there wasn't never any -- there never was — they never raised their voices or anything, it was just that I told him that when I was with Manson and all of them that, I guess I could have killed anybody, you know, like if they were at the house that night.
Q: How long would you say you were in this room with Dr. Owre?
A: About -- just an interview, like, not too long.
Q: When you responded to Dr. Owre, did you scream or yell?
A: No, never. I never raised my voice to any of them.
Q: When you said, "I could kill you easily," or "kill you no," what was your tone of voice?
A: It was just a conversation, you know; it wasn't any madness or anything, neither one of us.
Q: Were you trying to deceive Dr. Owre at that time?
A: No, I was talking to him just like anybody else.
MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further, your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BUGLIOSI
Q: When you went to Denton with Denise the first time you smoked some marijuana with her?
A: Yes, that's correct.
Q: Where did you get the marijuana?
A: She had some friends in Denton and took me by her friends and they sold us some marijuana.
Q: Did you tell Denise that you wanted to come out to northern California?
A: No, I can't remember that. We did have some conversation about coming to California but I can't remember -- maybe to the desert, is about what I think I said; I'm not for sure, though.
Q: Is it your understanding that the desert in California is in northern California?
A: I don't think so.
Q: So you don't believe you spoke about northern California, then.?
A: I can't recall it at all, northern California, saying northern California,
Q: And you don't recall telling Denise that you and another man were the leaders of this group?
A: No, the only thing I do recall is saying that when I left the desert that there was two of us in the desert and with a bunch of girls.
Q: There was more than two of you, wasn't there? There was Bruce Davis, Danny DeCarlo, Clem Tufts?
A: No, they weren't there. Charlie left me off at the ranch house and all the rest of them, I believe, was in L.A.; and Charlie left me off at the ranch house there.
Q: So there was just you and Charlie, then?
A: That's correct.
Q: For what period of time?
A: I believe just for about a day.
Q: So when you were talking to Denise about your experiences in California with this group you lived with, you only told her about this one day?
A: No, I don't believe so. I told her some more things about California, I believe.
Q: But you only told her about this one day that you and this other man were the only men in the family; that's the only day you told her that?
A: I don't understand what you are saying now.
Q: You indicated that you told Denise that there was only you and this other man and the girls.
A: This is when I left the desert, I believe.
Q: That only existed for one day; so when you told her that, you were only talking about the one day period that you and this man were together?
A: I guess so, yeah, I guess; I'm not for sure what you are asking there
Q: I believe you testified, Tex, that you told Denise that you and another man and several girls were in this group; is that correct?
A: Right. That is what I told her. That is the only thing I was talking about, I guess, at that time.
Q: And you never told her that you and this other man were the leaders of this group?
A: No.
Q: It is your testimony now that when you referred to the fact that you and this other man were with a bunch of girls, you were only talking about this one day that you and this other man were with a bunch of girls?
A: I said when I left the desert, another man and I, or there was two of us and a bunch of girls, another man and I and a bunch of girls.
Q: That only occurred during one day, the one day that you were with another man with the girls?
A: Yes.
Q: What about all the months and months and months when you -- when there were other men in the family besides you and this other man?
A: I don't know if I talked to her about that or not.
Q: So you were just referring to this one day?
A: I believe so.
Q: Why did this one day stick in your mind so much that you spoke about it to the exclusion of the other months that you were in California with the group?
A: I don't know. I guess I was just trying to say that I had a bunch of girls out here or something.
Q: You had sexual intercourse with Denise?
A: Yes.
Q: This was at the Holiday Inn?
A: Yes.
Q: In Denton?
A: Yes.
Q: You got along fairly well when you were incarcerated in McKinney?
A: Yes.
Q: And the sheriff of McKinney is who?
A: It is my uncle.
Q: And you ate all right there at the jail?
A: I ate what my mother brought me.
Q: When you were brought back to Los Angeles from McKinney, when you were at the jail here in Los Angeles, you wouldn't eat, is that correct? They had to tube feed you?
A: That was just, I believe, at the end. I ate what I could on the plates but I would spit most of it up.
Q: You didn't do too much talking when you were out here, did you, to anyone?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: You had a lot of physical problems; is that correct?
A: When I left Texas I felt fine.
Q: Right. When you got out here you had some physical problems?
A: Yes. I had physical problems.
Q: You were even relieving yourself on the floor; right?
A: I was tied to the bed. I couldn't get up and go to the bathroom.
Q: You mean the sheriff's office here at the Los Angeles County Jail, Tex, never permitted you to go to the bathroom; is that what you are telling us?
MR. BUBRICK: That is not what he said.
THE WITNESS: I was tied to the bed when I went to the bathroom.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: When you got up to Atascadero, you were not tube fed up there, were you?
A: No. I was spoon fed.
Q: And you talked to people up there, didn't you?
A: A little bit.
Q: You wouldn't lay in bed and remain mute for several days, would you, like you did here at the Los Angeles County Jail?
A: No. They just kept me down for three days and let me up.
Q: But you, got along much better at Atascadero than you did down here at the Los Angeles County Jail?
A: Yes, uh-huh.
Q: In fact, you put on 14 pounds up there; right?
A: I believe I did get up to 124 one time up there.
Q: Before you were incarcerated in McKinney, when you were with Denise and your mother, this was before incarceration, you ate at your mother's house; right?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And you dressed yourself; is that correct?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And you would drive the car around town in Copeville; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that correct?
A: Not in Copeville l didn't.
Q: Well, in Denton and Dallas.
A: At Richardson I went to see Denise a couple of times.
Q: You would go to a bar and have a beer and things like that; is that right?
A: Denise and I went to a grocery store one time and got a beer, no bars.
Q: You communicated with people. You wouldn't be mute and refuse to talk, would you?
A: No.
Q: Do you have any explanation, Tex, why you got along fairly well before you were arrested and you got along fairly well in the jail in McKinney and also up at Atascadero, but here at the Los Angeles County jail you did all types of things?
Do you have any explanation for that?'
A: I guess just the treatment I was. getting at the jail.
Q: Where at? The Los Angeles County jail?
A: The people hollering at me and officers were telling me that why didn't I kill myself and I would save the state a lot of money. They told me that a bunch of times.
Q: So when you refused to eat and you refused to talk and lost all this weight here at the Los Angeles County jail, that was in direct response to the way they were treating you at the L.A. County That is the only reason; is that correct?
A: I didn't lose a lot of weight at the county jail.
I weighed in at 118 I believe.
Q: When you were sent to Atascadero you weighed 111, so you had lost 7 pounds; is that correct?
A: Yes, 7 pounds.
Q: But I take it that your conduct at the Los Angeles County jail when you wouldn't talk to anyone or you wouldn't eat, you had to be tube fed, when you relieved yourself on the floor and things like that, this was in direct response to the way they were treating you here at the Los. Angeles County jail?
A: I believe so, yes.
Q: There was no other reason, was there?
MR. BUBRICK: Your Honor, I don't know whether he would know if there was any other reason. I think it calls for a conclusion on his part.
THE COURT: If you know of any other reason.
THE WITNESS: I know I just flipped out in my cell and felt like a monkey and they tied me to the bed.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: When you flipped out like a monkey, what did you do?
A: I remember I got up on the bars and started shaking the bars and I just felt like a monkey, you know. I felt I just, you know, I don't know how I felt. I just know I was kind of -- I don't know.
Q: Climbing up and down the bars like a monkey?
A: Uh-huh
Q: Were you incoherent?
MR. BUBRICK: I think that would be a conclusion. I don't know whether he would know,
MR. BUGLIOSI: Who can describe a man's state of mind better than himself?
THE COURT: That is not a very logical question at all.
When you flipped out and felt like a monkey, do you recall what you did?
THE WITNESS: Not that much.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Other than trying to climb the bars, or what have you, did you say anything? Did you do anything else?
A: Well, I was laughing and jumping around. That is about all I remember about that.
Q: So as soon as you got better treatment, then, up at Atascadero, then there was no need to tube feed you anymore; is that correct?
A: No.
Q: Is it correct what I said?
A: What did you say, again?
Q: Well, you had been being tube fed down here in Los Angeles County, then you got better treatment up in Atascadero; then there was no need to tube feed you anymore; is that correct?
A: I know before I left Los Angeles I was drinking out of -- they wouldn't take my tube out of my nose; I 'don't know why they wouldn't take it out of my nose, They wouldn't take it out and it was hurting.
Q: You claim that some of the technicians up at Atascadero hit you some karate blows and knocked you out?
A: Yes.
Q: You didn't like what they did to you?
A: I didn't -- I didn't talk about it; I didn't voice any opinion about it.
Q: But you didn't like it, did you?
A: I couldn't say that. It seems like I did kind of like it.
Q: You did like it?
A: I don't know,
Q: Do you feel that you are a masochist?
A: That is that?
MR. BUBRICK: I don't know if he knows what that means. I think it calls for a conclusion.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Well, why did you like it? Do you like it when people beat you up?
A: I don't really know. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.
Q: Who else was beating you up, other than the technicians at Atascadero, whom you claim beat you up? Who else beat you up?
A: Just them, as much as I can think of; just them
Q: And you say now that you enjoyed it?
A: Well, I can't say I enjoyed it, but I didn't go against it any or I didn't go with it, you know. I was just there.
Q: Why didn't you fight back?
A: I didn't have any reason to fight back
Q: When you left Atascadero, like all the patients leaving Atascadero, you were asked to sign a waiver of a complaint against the institution; isn't that correct?
A: They put a sheet of paper in front of me and asked me if I had any broken bones or something, and I signed it, yes.
Q: You signed the paper that said you didn't have any broken bones?
A: I guess I did.
Q: Did you read the document?
A: No, I didn't read the document; I just left.
Q: So you had no idea what you were signing?
A: No, I don't look at much what I sign, I just sign it.
Q: You thought maybe you were signing a broken bone document; is that it?
A: No, it didn't make any difference what I was signing, I just signed what they put in front of me all the time.
Q: But you did sign a waiver of complaint when you left Atascadero; is that correct?
A: Yes I believe that is what I understood it to be.
Q: When you were brought back to Los Angeles from Texas and incarcerated here at the Los Angeles County Jail, was there any tension or any fear or anxiety in your mind over the fact that you were being brought back for trial?
A: No, everything was pretty good until, you know, until the guys started walking by my cell and people started hollering me about stuff, you know; seemed like I was in kind of two worlds and I had brought back into my mother's and father's things, but I still had Manson's thing in me and then everybody started hollering at me about Manson and people started trying to visit me from Manson's group and stuff and I wouldn't visit them; and I just kind of went back into Manson's thing.
Q: And they called you Manson when you got out here, the deputies and co-inmates?
A: Yeah, they were always putting the Manson thing on me
Q: That you were Manson?
A: That I was Manson and that -- all that kind of stuff.
Q: And you say that when you got up to Atascadero that the doctors up there, the psychiatrists who were charged with the responsibility of treating you, you say that they also called you Charles Manson?
A: What they would do, they'd be talking to me and they'd say — they'd say, "Mr. Manson," and then, like they'd say, "I'm sorry, I meant Mr Watson"; that's the way they would do that.
Q: In other words, they were they were looking at you and they thought maybe that you were Charles Manson; then they caught themselves and said, "Sorry" --
A: No, that's just what they did several times. I don't know, you know, what -- I know they would just -- it could just be a mistake, you know; they would say, "Mr. Manson," then they would say, "I am sorry, I meant Mr. Watson."
Q: Who did this, Dr. Owre?
A: Dr. Owre, I believe, yeah, in some interviews.
Then the technicians would do it. I remember one time the technicians do things like that when they would put me to bed at night.
MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUBRICK
Q: Charles, when you came here from McKinney did Mr. Boyd give you anything aside from instructions?
A: He told me not to talk to anyone until I saw my attorney out here.
Q: Did he give you anything, in writing?
A: No, he just gave me a business card with the name of who I was supposed to call when I got out here.
Q: Was there anything on the back of the card, if you remember?
A: Yeah, Mr. -- I believe his name is Ransom.
Q: Karl Ransom?
A: Yeah, I was supposed to call, him when I got here.
Q: As a matter of fact, did he talk with you a number of times after you got here to California?
A: Two times, I believe.
Q: Mr. Ransom did?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you followed his instructions, did you not.
A: Mr. Ransom's
Q: Yes, and Mr. Boyd.
A: Yes.
Q: And, thereafter, mine?
A: Yes.
MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further, your Honor.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BUGLIOSI
Q: The first day you arrived at Atascadero you drank liquids and you had a regular meal; is that correct?
A: They brought me, I think, first -- I don't believe that they didn't bring me any meat at first, I don't think; and then they started.
Q: I didn't mean any meat, but a regular meal of solids?
A: Right; they just gave me a lot of chocolate milk, I know, a lot of it.
Q: So you drank liquid an ate solid food the first day you arrived at Atascadero; is that correct?
A: I don't know about the first day. It might have been the second day on the solid foods, but I drank a lot of stuff on the first day and I might have ate, I'm not sure.
Q: You weren't eating down here at the Los Angeles County jail before they sent you up to Atascadero, Tex. How did it happen that as soon as you arrived up at Atascadero you started drinking and eating; what is your explanation for that?
A: I have no explanation for it.
Q: Was it because you had gotten away from Los Angeles and you had achieved something in your mind?
A: No, I don't know, I just didn't -- I don't know. I didn't have any thoughts about anything then.
Q: How do you explain not eating down here and eating as soon as you get up there?
A: I know down here I eat until about the last day, a little bit on my tray until they put the tube in there; then they took me up there right away. I ate the vegetables and stuff off my tray.
Q: You were near death down here, weren't you?
MR. BUBRICK: I don't know if he knows that, your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you know that?
THE WITNESS: I didn't have any feelings of anything then.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You were being tube fed down here the last day before they sent you up to Atascadero; isn't that right?
A: Yes, I had a tube in my nose.
Q: Why wasn't it necessary to tube feed you up at Atascadero, Tex; what is your explanation for that?
A: Like said before, I would have drank stuff here in this jail. I know when one of the psychiatrists came he gave me stuff to drink and had the tube in my nose, but they wouldn't give me anything to drink like that here. They wanted to use the tube and the tube was hurting me.
Q: So they preferred to feed you by tube rather than through your mouth; is that correct?
A: That's correct.
MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUBRICK
Q: Tex, do you remember the name of the doctor that came to see you just before you left for Atascadero?
A: No, I don't know which one it was.
Q: Did one of them, however, give you something to drink by mouth?
A: Yes, before --
Q: That was while you still had the tube in you?
A: Yes, right.
Q: That was the day before you came -- or, went to Atascadero, was it not?
A: It was when he examined me; he gave me stuff to drink and I was drinking.
Q: You took it by mouth?
A: Right. And when I would swallow, it would hurt, because the tube was going from my nose to my stomach.
Q: As a matter of fact, you only had the tube in you one day, did you not?
A: I believe so, one day.
Q: And up until the time they put the tube in you, you ate whatever you could or whatever you wanted to off the tray by mouth?
A: Yes.
Q: And they only fed you by tube that one day?
A: That is right.
MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Nothing further.
THE COURT: You may step down
MR. BUBRICK: Your Honor, apparently our last witness is not yet here. I would have hoped that I would have had word by him. I have been told that he will probably be here at 1:30. It is Dr. Abe.
THE COURT: He will be here at 1:30?
MR. BUBRICK: Yes. He told me that he had been subpoenaed elsewhere but that he felt that in all probability he would be through in time to be here at 1:30 and he will be our last witness.
THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury. We will have our recess at this time until 1:30.
Once again, heed the usual admonition, please.
(A luncheon recess was taken until 1:30 p.m of the same day. )
