UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: (sound as if someone laughing)

DEPUTY PALMER: Sometimes very unfortunate. You had -

DEPUTY GLEASON: You -- glad that you got away from it when you did. It got pretty bad.

MOTHER: Ah, that phone ring about 7:30 one morning. It was an officer from Inyo County. It was Stephanie and I didn't know whether she was alive or dead or where she was.

DEPUTY PALMER: How long have you been gone, ah, from here?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Ah, maybe about just a month and a half, you know.

MOTHER: I didn't know where she was.

DEPUTY PALMER: Yeah.

MOTHER: I just called the police immediately because she'd gone out of the window.

DEPUTY GLEASON: (sound as if someone laughing)

MOTHER: And he came to the house and he said do you suppose she went to visit friends and I said through the window?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Well.

DEPUTY PALMER: Yeah.

MOTHER: I don't think they made any effort to find her. I told them where they could look. I told them that this ranch was -

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Well, they would have known where I was immediately if they would have looked; you know.

MOTHER: Well, they didn't. I was (unintelligible) fearful about that because I thought they would cooperate in finding her. I told them where I thought she would go -

DEPUTY GLEASON: Do you remember me from the raid at the Spahn Ranch. You probably don't because there was so many people.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No, but those people that, sir, I had a $300 guitar and one of the police smashed it.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Uh?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I feel like suing them or something.

DEPUTY PALMER: (Sound as if someone laughed) Gee whiz.

DEPUTY GLEASON: I don't remember the guitar. We had quite a few people there, so it's -

DEPUTY PALMER: What did ah, you say you left here?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Oh, well, dates I'm just - I -

DEPUTY PALMER: Roughly. Listen, your mother probably knows when.

MOTHER: Well, I wish I - I had a folder that I was keeping all the information in when she was arrested at what time with Charlie.

DEPUTY PALMER: Uh, huh. Where was that now? At the spah -

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: It was at the Spahn Ranch.

DEPUTY PALMER: At the Spahn Ranch.

MOTHER: -- when we brought in for her -- this is why she was on probation because of that ah, incident.

DEPUTY PALMER: Uh-huh. How long ago before the Spahn Ranch raid did you leave here.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, I, I wasn't living here at the time. Well, it's so complicated. I was living down with my sister in San Diego.

DEPUTY PALMER: Uh-huh.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: And I ah, I was on a trip with a guy and I met ah, Charlie in Big Sur, ah third of August. And I went to the ranch probably about the fifth of August. And --

DEPUTY PALMER: Did you go there with this guy you were in Big Sur with?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah.

DEPUTY PALMER: What was his name?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Charlie Manson.

DEPUTY PALMER: No, I mean the other fellow, you said you met, you went on a trip with a guy.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, he was from San Diego.

DEPUTY PALMER: What was his name?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Jeff something or other. I don't even, he's just still down there. He didn't have anything to do with it.

DEPUTY PALMER: Oh, he -

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I just left him and as I don't know --

DEPUTY PALMER: Okay.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: -- what came over me, but that's what happened.

DEPUTY GLEASON: So about the 5th of August then, you went to the Spahn Ranch?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh-huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Now, how did you get from Big Sur to the Spahn Ranch?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: In an old ah, Bakery truck, that Charlie was driving.

DEPUTY GLEASON: What color was it, do you know?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Beige.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Did it belong to Charlie?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't think so.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Do you know a gu - do you know a guy named Clem?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Did it belong to him?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't think it belonged to any of the people that it belong to a -

MOTHER: Is that the one that we saw when we went to pick up your driver's license?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah. They, they, had it in ah, in they were holding it because ah, I guess, the paper was still in with the bank instead of a person like somebody had - I don't know how all that stuff works, but, um --

MOTHER: They picked two girls up that were driving this truck. And they had, Stephanie's identification was in it at that time.

DEPUTY GLEASON: That was in San Fernando?

MOTHER: In San Fernando.

DEPUTY GLEASON: All right, uh huh.

MOTHER: And I drove up with Stephanie and ah, they, they wouldn't send the identification, driver's license whatever, so we had to go to get it. And we went over to the lot where they were holding this then. And he at that time, said that there was no, nobody had any proof or ownership at - time.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Yeah.

MOTHER: -- that time. Just was -- it was just there.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Yeah. So then you went to the ranch on about the fifth or August and what did you do from the fifth to the raid?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I was staying down in a canyon. Ah, I don't know if Devil's Canyon is the real name of it or, or if that's just the name they made up, but…

DEPUTY GLEASON: Yeah, that wasn't near the Spahn Ranch, was it?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh-huh. It was a --

DEPUTY GLEASON: That's a couple of miles.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Well --

DEPUTY GLEASON: Yeah.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: It's (unintelligible).

DEPUTY GLEASON: Yeah, you have to drive over.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: From the time I got there I only spent that one day there and then rest of the time I spent down in the canyon. And the night that I came back was the morning that we got raided.

DEPUTY PALMER: Who, who, who did you stay down in the canyon with?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Ah, there was one other girl, her name was Gypsy. I don't know what her real name is though, and ah, --

DEPUTY PALMER: What did, what did she look like?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: She's kind of heavy, not fat, just a little bit heavy and fairly tall, dark almost black hair, not too long, cut short.

DEPUTY GLEASON: How old is she?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Ah, 26, I think. And she was down there and then ah, Charlie was down there too, because when ah, those two girls got busted for forgery --

DEPUTY GLEASON: Uh, huh.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: -- ah, they had mentioned his name so he was gonna go stay down there for a while. And he was there off and on, you know, and sometimes he would leave during the night or --

DEPUTY GLEASON: And on Devil's Canyon did you stay around where the sulphur springs was?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't know. Where was a stream, there was just a stream going by.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Uh-huh.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't know.

DEPUTY GLEASON: There was a sulfur spring that you could smell if you were in the area.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't think so.

DEPUTY GLEASON: So then you went down to the ranch the morning that it was raided?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh from the canyon back up to the ranch.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Then you were booked and then you were later released?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh-huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Then what did you do?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Stayed at the ranch until ah, until I got, until I got busted for possession and trespassing.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Who busted you for that?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Some policemen but there was this, there was the ranch here and down this little road there's a little, there's a house. And we were in that and a policeman just drove by in the morning and came and picked us up.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Now, how close to the Spahn Ranch is this other house?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Oh, it only takes like about five minutes to walk there.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Which way was it toward ah, Chatsworth -- San Fernando Valley?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No.

DEPUTY GLEASON: -- towards (unintelligible) valley?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No, the other, the other way.

DEPUTY GLEASON: In Ventura County?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, I guess.

DEPUTY GLEASON: What name did you use when you were booked there?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I started out using Carol Mathews but they didn't believe me so right there I told them who I was. Because I told them that I was Carol Mathews and 18 then they sent me to Juvenile Hall, anyway. So I figured well -

DEPUTY GLEASON: Do you know who, what department it was that arrested you?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Ventura County Sheriff's or --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Um --

DEPUTY GLEASON: -- Los Angeles Police Department?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No, a, um, um, um, name some more maybe I can tell you because I know it but I can't think of it.

DEPUTY PALMER: Where did they book you?

Um - And did they have blue uniforms on or brown?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: The same place we were when everybody got busted.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Malibu?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah.

DEPUTY PALMER: In Malibu.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Same place, yes.

DEPUTY GLEASON: How long ago or how many days after you were released the first time (coughing) arrested you again?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I think it was about a week.

DEPUTY GLEASON: And they sent you to juvenile hall?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh-huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: You tried to tell them that you were Carol Mathews and then ah, they wouldn't believe you so they sent you to juvenile hall?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh-huh.

DEPUTY PALMER: Okay. Good evening, sir. Deputy Palmer and Deputy Gleason from the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department.

DEPUTY GLEASON: We're running things as far as Stephanie here, her activities in the past summer.

FATHER: Right.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Have you talked to some other law enforcement people lately?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah. No, not lately.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Have you talked to any policemen since you've come back from Death Valley?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Other than --

MOTHER: Yes, you have.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: My probation --

DEPUTY GLEASON: Yeah, other than the --

MOTHER: From San Dimas.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Oh, yeah, I forgot.

MOTHER: The next day we picked you up there.

FATHER: Guenter and --

DEPUTY GLEASON: Guenther and Whiteley?

FATHER: Guenther and Whiteley, yes.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Yeah, they're another, they work with us.

MOTHER: We had a call about two weeks ago that said it was a -- officer from Inyo County.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah

MOTHER: Officer from Inyo County.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: And he was gonna come out and see me and he never came. He asked me on the phone, he said would you be willing to give me any information I asked for. And I said yes.

DEPUTY PALMER: Inyo County or LAPD?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Inyo County.

MOTHER: -- to Los Angeles, but he was from Inyo.

DEPUTY PALMER: Oh.

MOTHER: We don't know and we can't remember his name and we just weren't alert enough I guess at the time, so, but he never showed up so when you called today that's why we went (unintelligible)

DEPUTY PALMER: That's quite all right.

MOTHER: That's kind of silly; they did the same thing after Stef came home when they called from San Dimas. We called back the number to make sure that the (unintelligible).

DEPUTY GLEASON: Yeah, oh, yeah. That's quite all right.

MOTHER: These people are kind of --

DEPUTY PALMER: Well, if the officers are legitimate they don't mind it, you know, we don't mind it at all.

MOTHER: Well, I sincerely hope you don't.

DEPUTY GLEASON: So then when you were arrested the second time for trespassing and sent to Juvenile Hall then what happened?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Then I called my mother, came home. Was here for about a month.

MOTHER: About a month? No, dear, not nearly a month.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Two weeks. And then I left and went right from here, I was at the ranch for a few hours but then went right out to the desert.

DEPUTY GLEASON: So that would have been about the time school started then.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Okay, how did you get from the Spahn Ranch up to the desert? Well, first of all how did you get from here to the Spahn Ranch.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: With ah, Charlie Manson and Clem and ah, Lynn Fromme.

DEPUTY GLEASON: And did you call them and have them --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: -- come, come around and get you?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: You call the ranch?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Okay and then you're up at the Spahn Ranch for a few hours --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah.

DEPUTY GLEASON: -- and how did you get from the Spahn Ranch up to the desert?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Um, I don't know whose, ah, it was a rented car from Hertz rent-a-car or something like that.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Do you recall what it was a new one, old one, or?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: It was a new one, a green, I don't know, some kind of big car. I don't know what kind it was.

DEPUTY GLEASON: And ah, who rode up to the Ranch or to the valley --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: -- the desert from the San Fernando Valley?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh. Charlie and ah, Clem and Patty, another girl. I don't know anybody's full name.

DEPUTY GLEASON: All right. We have some pictures that we'll show you later then. Now, when you called Charlie to come down and pick you up, did he pick you up here at the house or near the house?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Here.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Now, when you guys left the Spahn Ranch and drove up to the desert ah, you said that Patty was in the car --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh-huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: -- and Charlie.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh and Clem.

MOTHER: (indistinguible) girls to stop (Some laughing)

FATHER: Lay down.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Now, how did you get from Goulder Wash up into the, to the Barker Ranch?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Walk.

DEPUTY GLEASON: They didn't come out and pick you up or --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY PALMER: -- that was kind of a long walk, wasn't it?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, it took us about three days. We'd camp and walk again, then -

DEPUTY GLEASON: It sounds funny, but it's true. Boy, it's really a remote place. We were up there driving around one day, bottom of the world. (Laughing)

FATHER: It's (unintelligible) territory up there.

MOTHER: Not where they were you don't. (Laughing) territory to cover. It's all the same.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Now, after you got up to the desert was Sadie up there when you first got up there?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY PALMER: Well, when did she get up there? About how long after you were at the desert did Sadie get up there?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I think I'd say about three weeks.

DEPUTY PALMER: Okay. Well, then you, sometime when you and Sadie were talking she supposedly told you that she killed somebody, or she stabbed somebody.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No, well, see it was alot of people ah, the girls were sitting around and there was on girl who was kind of new to the group and she said something like you mean you guys really killed, you know, somebody before. And Sadie said, sure, she said, and then I heard her talking about stabbing some great big guy in the leg wrestling with some big guy and stabbing him.

DEPUTY PALMER: What brought the conversation on about this new girl asking --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Sadie's always talking about killing, you know, death of some kind or you know, just doing weird things and --

DEPUTY PALMER: Well, what kind of weird things, what --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Oh --

DEPUTY PALMER: What did they talk about, you know?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't know. They talked about how when if anybody would come into the desert, you know, from the city then you'd get them and kill them and do something to them. It never happened while I was there. And ah, but (two people talking at the same time) suppose to do that's, you know --

DEPUTY PALMER: What were you supposed to do if somebody came?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Kill them, I guess.

DEPUTY PALMER: Did they say how or what you were supposed to do?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, they even, Charlie even told us, gave us a lesson on how to stab people and --

DEPUTY PALMER: When did he do this, while you were out there?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, when we were in the desert.

DEPUTY PALMER: What did he say, what did he show you?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: He said ah, he said ah, we'll take them and we'll, we'll chop them up and we'll have to learn how to, how to put their bodies in places where people aren't going to see them and how, and he said that, you know, he asked if everybody could do it.

DEPUTY PALMER: Did Charlie ever tell you about killing policemen?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No, he never told, he never talked about anything like that, you know.

DEPUTY PALMER: Hum.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: He never, you know, said anything about himself, or anything.

DEPUTY GLEASON: No, I mean about the family killing policemen who'd come up there to investigate?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Oh, he'd say if they came don't give in to them either, either you know get them however you can or else just act really weird so that (sound as if phone ringing). Ah I can't remember.

DEPUTY PALMER: Who did Charlie give this lesson to how to kill people? Who was there at the time, do you remember?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah. So it's me and ah, the girl whose name is Oosch and ah, Clem and Chuck, that's the other Charlie, Watson.

DEPUTY PALMER: Yeah.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Oh, yeah.

DEPUTY PALMER: Tex?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, Tex.

DEPUTY PALMER: Well, what did Charlie say about this -- how to kill people? Did he --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Well, he acted, he looked at me and he said, "Are you okay, can you do it? You know, if somebody comes out here, you know, and I said, oh, sure, you know, 'cause I had, I knew I had to go along with it.

DEPUTY PALMER: Yeah.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: So I said, "Sure" and I, I said, "Well, I really don't know how to do it." I said, "If it really came upon me to kill somebody I wouldn't know how," you know, and he says, "Well, you have to," you know, and he showed me gotta get them from here to here.

DEPUTY PALMER: Well, how did he show you? That's what we're interested in. How did he --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: He had a knife and he said, and he used me for a demonstration.

DEPUTY PALMER: How did he say you cut them from the ear --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah.

DEPUTY PALMER: Ear to ear?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah.

DEPUTY PALMER: Or just stab them or?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Said, "If you're going to cut them from their neck cut them from one side to the other," and if you stick the knife inside be sure to wiggle it around so you can get alot of --

DEPUTY PALMER: Yeah, get a lot as much as you can. Did he ever say just sticking it straight into him in the neck. Did he show you different areas --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No, but he said, "Stick it straight into their ear, or in their eyes if you can."

DEPUTY PALMER: Yeah.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I shouldn't be saying all this stuff. I just know it.

MOTHER: You've said it before Steff. You know I hear it again; it still would have been bad.

DEPUTY PALMER: Yeah, well, then did he ah, what did he a, did he go on with this further?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Well, you wouldn't believe this if I told you, but he says then you take their heads and boil them in a pot and then when we have all their skulls set them up and --

DEPUTY GLEASON: Yeah. Did Charlie ever say whether he, himself, would actually cut somebody's head off.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Did anybody talk about cutting somebody's head off?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No, I don't think so. See, it's like, like after I came out of the desert and I read all these articles and stuff, you know, about the Tate thing --

DEPUTY GLEASON: Uh, huh.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I knew that they did it, you know. I, nobody ever said anything, but just from the way they talked and the things they did and you know little snatches of things I'd hear, here and there I could read these articles and just put them together.

DEPUTY GLEASON: What, what would you hear, snatches --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Well, one thing I heard was one girl saying something about an article that something about Mau Mau people --

DEPUTY GLEASON: Uh, huh.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: -- and also ah, well, then I read an article and it said --

MOTHER: That's after you were home that you read that, though.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah. And the news said something about these people being Mau, Mau type people. I said, "Wow, that's weird," you know. I heard somebody saying about a magazine article. And then also, that it had Pigs on the board. They were always calling eve, you know, the policemen pigs.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Who would say this?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: All of them would call them that.

DEPUTY PALMER: All of them?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah.

DEPUTY PALMER: Did anybody that wasn't in the group get called pigs?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, just about.

DEPUTY PALMER: Huh, this wasn't --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: So when I, when I read the articles I, I, I yeah, I myself I had no proof or anything but I know that they did it.

DEPUTY PALMER: What, what would they do that made you think about after reading about the Tate situation? What did they do that recalled your memory that, that you thought they did it?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I just that, that it just had pigs on the wall and the Mau, Mau thing and also the way that they chopped people, you know, like I read an article it say how other articles were going overboard and saying that this, you know, that they said were done, sounded just like the things you know, like Charlie said he'd do to me if I, you know, did anything wrong.

DEPUTY GLEASON: What did Charlie tell you he would do to you?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Well, he was saying like cutting off part of your body or something like that, you know.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Did he ever threaten you?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Did Clem ever threaten you?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No, not really.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Did Tex?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No.

DEPUTY PALMER: What did ah, what did Charlie threaten you -- why did he threaten you?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Well, one time when I was at the ranch I wanted to go home and he wouldn't let me. So first he beat me up and then he took me back in some room with a great big knife and told me he was gonna kill me if I didn't decide to stay.

DEPUTY PALMER: Uh-huh. What part of the ranch was this?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Ah, back in, well, it's called the parachute room. It was back, it was a trailer, kind of all covered up. You couldn't really see it unless, you know, went in.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Is it back behind George's house or behind a saloon?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: This the trailer that ah, they had written on the walls inside? They'd written on the cabinet doors?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't know. I, I don't think so. But there was like a bed and it's enclosed on both sides and then it comes out and it goes around.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Uh, huh. Yeah.

I think I've been in that trailer. What did, how did he beat you up, with his fist?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yes.

DEPUTY PALMER: What did his knife look like that he threatened you with?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Um, I don't remember, there was so many of them around.

DEPUTY PALMER: Was it a small one?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No, it was pretty big.

DEPUTY PALMER: That big?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, about that big.

DEPUTY PALMER: Do you know what a machete is? It's a real wide blade, kind of curves. It's got a --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, I know what it is.

DEPUTY PALMER: -- pretty larger (unintelligible) on it. It's used for cutting bananas down, that sort of thing.

Or was it a thin blade, like a sword?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: It was so big, you know, like kind of buck knife or something like that --

DEPUTY PALMER: Uh, huh.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Only, you know, about that long or something like that.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Did you have a buck knife when you were up to the desert?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh-huh. I gave it to one of the police for his private collection.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Who gave you the buck knife?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Charlie did.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Did he give all the girls knives?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yes.

DEPUTY GLEASON: What did he tell you about the knife when he gave it to you?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Well, I was kind of confused at, he gave, he gave everybody a knife and he left, he was gonna do some scouting around or something and I said, to somebody, I said, "Don't think about I'm dumb or anything but what are the knives for?" And ah, they said they were for, you know, when somebody comes in, you know. Guys, you know, just used them for sewing or knitting, anything like that.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Now, getting back up to the desert, were you at the desert the day that the two policemen came to the Barker Ranch to talk to ah, to talk to Lynne?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: We were never there during the day. I was never there during the day.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Oh, did you have a talk about the two officers that came to the ranch?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh-huh.

DEPUTY PALMER: Where would you stay during the day?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Down in the wash. You walk about four miles around; there's another house over there.

DEPUTY GLEASON: At the Myer Ranch?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Huh?

DEPUTY GLEASON: At the Myer Ranch?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah. We'd walk, we wouldn't stay there, we walked all the way around and just camped out in the wash.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Behind the Myer Ranch?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yes. A little. About two miles behind it.

DEPUTY PALMER: Who would camp out with you up there?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Almost everybody. They only people that stayed at the house were, um like, maybe Charlie would stay there a, you know, some of them, some kid named Paul or something like that, I don't know who he was.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Now, when you were camping out at this place up past the Myer Ranch, did you see the shotguns that were buried up there in the grounds?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Do you know if they were still buried up there when you left?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't know.

DEPUTY GLEASON: I mean when you left they were still there, you know.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Ah, well, somebody had a sawed off shotgun they carry around all the time.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Uh-huh.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: And I guess there were two other ones with the cases and everything --

DEPUTY GLEASON: Uh-huh.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't know where they were.

DEPUTY PALMER: Who was --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: But they stashed everything, Uh?

DEPUTY PALMER: Who was the one that carried the sawed-off shotgun?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: One of the guys. You know, different people, different guys would carry it.

DEPUTY PALMER: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Were there any hand guns up there like a .22 rifle or a pistol?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I never, I never saw any.

DEPUTY GLEASON: How about the Spahn Ranch, did you ever see any hand guns up there, like .45 revolvers or --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh. I saw alot of rifles, but I never saw any guns.

DEPUTY PALMER: Where did they stash them up in the desert?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Um, wherever we were, we, you know, well, there was a bunch of things stashed at ah, a little mining house, I don't --

DEPUTY PALMER: The Lotus Mine?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No.

DEPUTY PALMER: Do you know where the Lotus Mine is?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No, I was never there.

DEPUTY PALMER: Do you know --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: There was some people that was there, but came after that.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Well, as you walk up from Goulder Wash up to the Barker Ranch you had to go by the Lotus Mine.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Oh, I did?

DEPUTY GLEASON: You don't know?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Okay. You never went by a place, do you recall seeing a place with a mail box if front of it?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Just at Barker Ranch, that's all.

DEPUTY GLEASON: No, before you get to Barker's. As you're walking up from Goulder Wash, on the right as you walk up --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah.

DEPUTY GLEASON: -- There's a place called the Lotus mine; two houses and has some signs around it that said, "Keep out." It's right next to the road.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Gee, I --

DEPUTY GLEASON: I just wonder if that's the mine place you're talking about?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh, that's not the one I was talking about. This one's way over on the other, all the way down the wash. There's nothing but a -- all by itself.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Oh, what was place called?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I can't remember, um, the something or other. Somebody's name. That's where they found all the dune buggies and everything.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Uh, huh.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: But I can't remember the name of it, but there was stuff stashed there and there was stuff stashed down in the was where we camped and --

DEPUTY PALMER: What were they stashing?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Oh, food and ah, I don't know what else. I never did see any stashing, but it was mostly food I guess. Like in the winter everybody ended up some place.

DEPUTY PALMER: Were you up in the desert when they burnt the tractor?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh-huh.

DEPUTY PALMER: Do you know who burnt it?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Um, Clem, Clem, Charlie and Tex, I think. I can't, you know, I'm not positive.

DEPUTY PALMER: Were you there when they did burn it?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah. We were coming out from the hot springs and ah, they had blown up the road or something so he said nobody could get through. So we fixed the road up and went through it. So then they saw that thing there and we took all the gas out and then burn it.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Whose idea was it to burn the tractor down?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Probably Charlie's. You know, no, he's the only one that ever has any ideas and everybody else just does what he says.

DEPUTY GLEASON: How come everybody does what Charlie says?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Don't ask me. Either, well, the reason I did it was because I'd either get beat up and killed if I didn't do it, you know. And I couldn't leave so I'd just do it, when, you know.

DEPUTY PALMER: So it was ah, Charlie and Clem and what, Tex?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I think so. I think those were just about the only guys down there.

DEPUTY GLEASON: And any of the girls there?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: They didn't help with burning it up.

DEPUTY GLEASON: What did you --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: We were all there, but they didn't help.

DEPUTY PALMER: Were you driving on the road?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, we just sat in the cars and the guys ran out and did it. And then we drove on.

DEPUTY PALMER: Then the three of them came back and the thing burned. Did they laugh about it, did they -

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yes.

DEPUTY PALMER: - make a big sport out of it?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh-huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: That was a $40,000 tractor.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I can imagine

DEPUTY PALMER: Federal property besides. Gosh. What ah, after that where did you guys go?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Um. We went to, it was just a little shack place you probably, probably nobody even knows where it is. It's just a little shack and everybody went there and sorted out all their stuff. He told everybody to get everything in order, you know.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Is that near Barker's

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: It's hard for me to figure --

DEPUTY GLEASON: I mean, ah --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: -- to figure the place out. Um --

DEPUTY GLEASON: Or was it near Goulder or up near Mangle Pass?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't know. I don't know all the names and everything.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Did you, how about Willow Springs? Do you know where that is?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Willow Springs; that's the house I was talking about before.

DEPUTY GLEASON: That's the house?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yes.

DEPUTY GLEASON: How long did you guys live there?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Oh, about three or four days.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Were you there when they brought all the ah, truck, the batteries and stuff up there --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh-huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: -- and case of oil and stuff? Is there any guns buried around there or hidden around there?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't think so.

DEPUTY GLEASON: You know how many dune buggies they hid around there?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Ah, there was three, four, there was four of them.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Around the Willow Springs?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Were they all in the wash or do you know where they were?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Um, three of them were like, here's the house and you go down a thing, a little, you know, you go down a little hill there and they were around here and a bunch of trees and stuff.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Uh, huh.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: And then there was another one all camouflaged over by the spring over by where the water came out the spring. There was one there.

DEPUTY PALMER: What else did ah, Charlie teach you there besides wiping people out. Did he ever held any other classes like that?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, how to sing and dance and --

DEPUTY PALMER: Do you know Terry Melcher?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No, no.

DEPUTY PALMER: How about Dennis Wilson?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, I, yeah. Not well, he probably wouldn't, you know. We were over there a couple of times.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Was Dennis ever up at the desert?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh-huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Just at the Spahn Ranch?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I never even saw him there but I was only there for awhile. He'd probably been there before though.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Did you ever go to Dennis' house? Who else was at Dennis' house?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Just me and Charlie went there.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Do you recall when that was?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Um, yeah, I think I could put it together. It was about a week after those two girls got picked up because he wanted some money to get them out of jail.

DEPUTY GLEASON: If was just before the raid then?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Just before the Spahn Ranch raid?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No just after, I think, because I was staying at the ranch not down in the canyon.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Did Charlie think that Dennis would give him money?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Well, I guess he did a record a long time ago and he wanted to see if there were any royalties left on it or something; but he no, he didn't give him any.

DEPUTY GLEASON: But Dennis was home though?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY PALMER: Did you ever go down into Topanga with Charlie?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY PALMER: Where did you stay down there?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: What, what do you mean stay?

DEPUTY PALMER: In Topanga Canyon did you ever stay in Topanga Canyon with Charlie?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Any of the family live in Topanga or --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I thought that was where the ranch was in Topanga Canyon.

DEPUTY GLEASON: No, that's in Chatsworth.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Oh. No I guess we didn't.

DEPUTY PALMER: Never did go down into what they call Topanga Canyon down towards the beach, towards Malibu?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, uh.

DEPUTY PALMER: Did you ever know a guy name Dave, had long --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I --

DEPUTY PALMER: -- dark hair parted in the middle and wore a big earring in one ear --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY PALMER: -- that rode a motorcycle or had a motorcycle jacket on?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I know one guy who was a motorcycle guy. I think his name was Danny, though, not Dave but that's all.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Where did you know him from?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: The ranch.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Ranch, did any other motorcycle guys come up there?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Ah, once in a while, but they didn't stay. They just came and visited or something like that.

DEPUTY PALMER: Did Danny spend any time at the ranch?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah.

DEPUTY PALMER: He did. Did Danny ever go to the desert?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Did you ever see anybody driving a brand new red Ford?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Either at Spahn's or up at the desert?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Do you know a guy named Joe Vance?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I think so but I don't, it sounds familiar, the name. Is he, is he an older guy?

DEPUTY GLEASON: Yeah.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: What is he, I don't know, what does he look like?

DEPUTY GLEASON: I don't have a picture of him with me. Where do you know him from?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't know his name just sounds familiar.

DEPUTY GLEASON: How about Bill Cole?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't know, his name sounds familiar.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Do you know a guy that's got some front teeth missing, older guy? With a broken nose?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, uh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: How about Bruce Davis?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Bruce, yeah, I know Bruce. I don't if its the same Bruce or not.

DEPUTY GLEASON: What does he look like?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Ah, he's got real dark hair, ah --

DEPUTY GLEASON: Tall or short?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Reg, regular size. Not real tall, not real short.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Does he own a car, do you know?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't know. I don't think any of us, anybody owns a care. (Unintelligible).

MOTHER: She doesn't know. (Unintelligible)

DEPUTY GLEASON: Do you know, ah, do you know a girl named Sharon from the Spahn Ranch?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Sherry, no Sharon.

DEPUTY GLEASON: How about Sherry, what does she look like? Do you know where she was from?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Ah, I don't know where she was from. Hair was about down to there, I guess. Real kind of thin, kind of young looking.

DEPUTY PALMER: Was there ever any at the ranch; did you remember seeing a girl that was quite tall maybe 5'8", 5'9", real slender? Did you a ever see a girl --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Dark hair?

DEPUTY PALMER: Yeah, it would be brown hair about like yours.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Probably shoulder length hair.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Ah.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Usually wore hippie clothes, boots.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, there was one, yeah, what was her name, ah -- it started with a 'S' I think. I can't remember her name.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Did you know where she was from?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I, I really didn't know anybody that well --

DEPUTY GLEASON: Oh.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: -- there.

DEPUTY PALMER: Would you know her if you saw a picture of her?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah. I'd know everybody that was there, I guess, if I saw a picture of them. I was with them long enough.

DEPUTY GLEASON: How about a girl named Virginia Smith?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Or a Robbin Ross? A girl named Robbin? Or a guy named Verne Thompson?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh. What ever happened to Verne?

DEPUTY GLEASON: That's what we'd like to know.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: She seemed like ah, like a he didn't fit in with anybody out there.

DEPUTY GLEASON: How about a guy Larry Jones?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Little Larry?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: He's a little guy, yes.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Who did ah, who was Verne and ah, what girls were friendly with Verne and Larry?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't, none that I knew of. I don't know. I don't know he seemed like, he, he seemed like he should just one of the guys working there. He didn't seem like he fit in with the rest of everybody else.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Uh, huh. This is Larry or --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Vern.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Vern?

DEPUTY PALMER: Did you ever see -- Charlie and any of the girls or did any of you ever dress up all in black?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No, but I heard people talk about it once. I, I

DEPUTY PALMER: Who was talking about it?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Well it was the first night that I got there, I think, and we were all sitting down to dinner and I heard somebody say that so, and so and so and so, went into Hollywood all dressed in black.

DEPUTY PALMER: Did they say who? Do you remember who it was?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I think Sadie was one of them.

DEPUTY PALMER: Sadie?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah.

DEPUTY PALMER: And who else?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: But I don't, but I don't, I don't know the other name.

DEPUTY PALMER: Was there a girl or a guy?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: It was a girl, two girls.

DEPUTY PALMER: Did you ever see them dressed in black?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No.

DEPUTY PALMER: Did you ever see Charlie dressed in black?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No.

DEPUTY PALMER: Never at the ranch or at the desert?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, uh. In the desert we always wore dark clothes like at night and stuff so we, you know.

DEPUTY PALMER: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: And you were at the ranch and these people were talking about going into Hollywood, do you know what kind of car they would use?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No, that was just a little, little thing that I heard, you know.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Uh, huh. Do you know Bobby Beausoleil?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, uh, I never met him.

DEPUTY GLEASON: And Gary Hinman? Haven't met any of them, huh?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Does he have another name, Beau, that Beausoleil guy?

DEPUTY GLEASON: Cupid.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, that's what it was. I was trying to think of this the other night.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Did you know him?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No, you know, I heard about him.

DEPUTY GLEASON: What did you hear about him?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: He was suppose to, I think, come with us maybe you know, but, you know I --

DEPUTY GLEASON: When you first got out to the Spahn --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I thought he was, Kitty, Kitty's boy friend, I guess, a long time ago awhile back or something.

DEPUTY GLEASON: When you first got up to the Spahn Ranch do you recall anybody talking about Cupid?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No. Just that he wasn't there.

DEPUTY GLEASON: But apparently he had been there?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yes.

DEPUTY GLEASON: I'll turn this off a second. I'll show her some pictures here. Girl that had infections something on her leg that never healed and left scars? Do you recall seeing anybody like that?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, uh, Yes.

DEPUTY GLEASON: What do you call her?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: That's gypsy. She is the one that was in the canyon with me.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY PALMER: She stayed in the canyon with you, in Devil's canyon?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yes, she would, had been there for awhile. She was fat, she was trying to lose weight and she stayed out there all the time.

DEPUTY PALMER: Did you ever see anything drive up in the ranch in a brand new Volkswagen? A stolen Volkswagen?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't know if it was stolen or not, there was --

DEPUTY PALMER: Not a dune buggy but a regular Volkswagen.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: A beige one. Some guy drove a beige one all the time, was over there.

DEPUTY PALMER: Do you know who he was?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I think he was a mechanic or something. He helped with parts and things like that.

DEPUTY PALMER: Did he work on a dune buggy?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't think he ever worked on them but he'd bring them things, I think --

DEPUTY PALMER: Parts?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah.

DEPUTY PALMER: Do you know what his name was?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, uh.

DEPUTY PALMER: Now about B.C. Did you ever hear of that?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, but I --

DEPUTY PALMER: Or did you ever hear of the name B.C.?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh, but I didn't know who it is. That could have been some guy.

MOTHER: She's getting so quiet out there (unintelligible).

FATHER: Digging something up.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: See

FATHER:, really she shouldn't do that out there because she's gonna be digging holes. Now I've been watching her all day so she wouldn't.

MOTHER: In court all day, right (unintelligible).

DEPUTY PALMER: (sound as if someone laughing) Yeah, they sure like to dig.

MOTHER: Not in my beautiful yard.

DEPUTY PALMER: Did you ever see any of the girls or anybody drive up in stolen dune buggies at the ranch?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh. There was dune buggies there but I, everybody said that ah, you know, all the news paper saying that they had been stolen but as far as I knew they would just using them, go got them so that they could use them in the desert.

DEPUTY PALMER: Hide around the ranch?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: When we got to the desert cause that was the whole thing, you know 'cause they were --

DEPUTY PALMER: Now when you got to the desert you had some dune buggies?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, well, there some of them were stolen then, yeah.

DEPUTY PALMER: Do you know who stole them or who drove them to the desert?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Ah, no I don't know.

DEPUTY PALMER: Did you ever see Charlie, did you see paint the dune buggie that he had the one he camouflaged?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, uh, he did that before I got there.

DEPUTY PALMER: Oh, it was already that way when you got there?

DEPUTY GLEASON: Now did you ever see, did you ever see the movie camera that they had? The big movie camera?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Did you ever hear Charlie talking about driving around the desert and having ah, like war games?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Okay, getting back to Sadie and what she told you about stabbing these guys, ah, did she ever mention or did you hear the name Shortie?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yes.

DEPUTY GLEASON: What did you hear about Shortie?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Well, I, see when I went to San Dimas, to be questioned they asked me about him there and there was one night when we were in the desert that all the girls walked down this mountain to go get water and I was the only one that didn't go. I stayed to put the sleeping bags out and stuff like that. Well, Kitty, was at San Dimas too and she had said, you know, that they found out about Shortie being killed. And she figured I knew because she probably figured everybody went down there for water and forgot I didn't go. And that they talked about it when they went down there. Who did it and all that kind of stuff and I wasn't there so when they asked me about it they thought I was lying 'cause I said I didn't know anything and I didn't.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Did Kitty, did Kitty tell you what ah, she had heard about Shortie?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, uh, they just took her out of the room after that.

DEPUTY PALMER: Did she ever tell you who killed Shortie?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Three, three guys, I think.

DEPUTY PALMER: She say who? --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Three of the guys.

DEPUTY PALMER: What, three of the guys, what, you mean like Charlie and them or --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah.

DEPUTY PALMER: -- from that group or --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, but that's all, you know, that all they let her say, I mean (unintelligible).

DEPUTY PALMER: What three guys would she be referring too?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I don't know.

DEPUTY PALMER: Would they be the only three that were there? Were there more than three guys in your group or --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Yeah, there was more than three. Ah, I don't know who, I don't know who it was and you know, I wouldn't want to say 'cause --

DEPUTY PALMER: Yeah.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: -- I just don't know.

DEPUTY PALMER: What did ah, this new girl that came into the group when Sadie was saying that she had stabbed this guy, ah, did she go on any more about it ah, --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No. Every, nobody ever talked, you know, they didn't talk about it that much.

DEPUTY PALMER: Uh, huh.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: They just kept quiet about things they did, you know.

DEPUTY PALMER: Do you know who the new girl was that came into the group?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No I can't remember her name ah --

DEPUTY PALMER: Was she arrested ah, --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: No, she was like brand new I think. She, she nobody had ever met her before.

DEPUTY PALMER: Where did you first see her at?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: In the desert.

DEPUTY PALMER: Did she come up there with anybody or alone?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: She come up there with Sadie a couple other people came up there.

DEPUTY PALMER: Did you ever know a girl by the name of Juanita?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Heard about her.

DEPUTY PALMER: At the ranch?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: I heard about somebody named Juanita but she was never there.

DEPUTY PALMER: What did you hear about her?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: That she was there once, that's all. I heard people talk about her. I don't know what they said I just remember the name and but she was never there while I was.

DEPUTY PALMER: You never saw her then?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY PALMER: A short girl with real long blond hair?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: This new girl, ah, did she come up there with anybody else to the desert? Did she arrive at the same time?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: She came with Sadie and ah, I guess Squirt and them and maybe a few other people I can't remember who.

DEPUTY GLEASON: How about ah, did she say where she was from or anything?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: She's from L.A. She's from around L.A.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Was there anything outstanding about her? Was she tall or short or fat or skinny or anything?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Just regular.

DEPUTY GLEASON: She grew, did she have buck teeth or regular teeth or anything. Okay, is there anything else you can think of?

DEPUTY PALMER: There's a million things left.

MOTHER: Are you fellows ready for dinner?

DEPUTY PALMER: We had lunch about 4 o'clock.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: How dangerous do you think her position is?

DEPUTY PALMER: Pardon?

DEPUTY GLEASON: I don't think you have any problem ah --

MOTHER: I don't think Stephanie knows anything incriminating.

DEPUTY GLEASON: No.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

MOTHER: -- the same thing with the people but like I say she did get away just about in time, I think.

DEPUTY GLEASON: This is ah, this is ah, our biggest thing right now we, we're just right there, you know.

MOTHER: I don't see how they could hold Charlie on anything.

DEPUTY GLEASON: We're just right on the edge --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: How can you convict him, I mean he instigated he had so much control over everybody but they all did the thing so what's he gonna do?

DEPUTY GLEASON: We're right on the edge --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Life is wasting --

DEPUTY GLEASON: No, we, we're just right on the edge and we just can't find the person or persons or that will what we call just get up off of it.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Yeah.

MOTHER: Maybe they're, maybe there were just so many other --

DEPUTY GLEASON: We're just right over the brink that will cinch it for us. We know, you know, we know who the people are --

MOTHER: Well that's the law you know it's (unintelligible - people talking at the same time) they just protect the guilty.

DEPUTY GLEASON: It's just right on the edge and all we need is just one thing or one person or a couple of things and its there but we just can't get it.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Well the people that there have they admitted killing Sharon Tate?

DEPUTY GLEASON: We can't say --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Like what's that one girl that they got in --

DEPUTY GLEASON: We can't say, we don't know really it's LAPD's case, they're strictly LAPD's. My main concern right now is Gary Hinman who is one of our cases.

FATHER: Who is he?

DEPUTY GLEASON: Now, he was killed in July in Topanga Canyon. Then we have some other rumors like this fellow Shortie that supposedly was killed. Nobody ever found anybody who can definitely say he was killed.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: What about Sherry, I heard something on the news the other night that they said they found some girl about a month ago or something like that and whose name was Sherry and she killed.

DEPUTY GLEASON: I don't think so.

MOTHER: She's suppose to be about 17 or something, they couldn't identify here. It was about three weeks ago and I heard it on the news and I, I get --

DEPUTY GLEASON: That was the girl that we was asking about that was ah, so tall and thin.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Uh, huh.

DEPUTY GLEASON: They thought her name was Sherry, her first name was Sherry. We still haven't identified her. She's never been arrested so she has no finger prints on file. And we've got people, we've got people that have dropped out of sight. And we, we know were in your, in your group and what have you. I just, they disappeared one day --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: If you left, if you left the group Charlie would kill you.

MOTHER: What would happen if somebody would actually come into my house and I, I don't have a we, don't have a gun but I've been thinking of leaving a knife out on my kitchen sink. I would never done, brutally harm anybody but I'm a person who (unintelligible) if anybody would threaten me. (unintelligible).

DEPUTY GLEASON: Everybody's in jail.

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: Okay what about --

MOTHER: Well, I don't know they've seem to have other pieces of the family that maybe weren't there. They claim he's still giving orders to everybody anyway. They're talking about eating peanut butter.

FATHER: That's why I bought a German Shepard.

MOTHER: -- and honey --

FATHER: The most vicious dog you could buy, you know he got (unintelligible) but I couldn't even bring him in the house, he was just vicious.

MOTHER: The dog goes where I go. I'll take a chance with my knife. I always take a chance with my knife (unintelligible) with a dog every time I look around.

FATHER: If this is what everybody - we called eh -

MOTHER: We called Inyo County two or three times to see if they were still in custody because they picked him up even when he was picked up with Stephanie.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Yeah.

MOTHER: He was violating Federal parole they let him loose.

DEPUTY GLEASON: We couldn't get his parole officer to violate him at that time.

MOTHER: (unintelligible) we could figure out that maybe there was something they wanted to get him that would be a longer term.

DEPUTY GLEASON: No we couldn't get his parole officer off the dime to violate him when we arrested him in August.

MOTHER: Well, she's on probation that's all -- for all the parole (unintelligible) same thing possession of marijuana what's that?

DEPUTY GLEASON: Um-um-

MOTHER: They let him go.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Yeah.

FATHER: Not it's on her record.

MOTHER: It's on her record and he was just let free and -

FATHER: He didn't have it but even (unintelligible) you know and we were.

DEPUTY PALMER: That's her problem with the probation and parole and what have you, and the courts and everything else.

MOTHER: Well, it kind of hurt Stephanie's case. We didn't go in with an attorney because we were more less led to believe that ah, it really was kind of borderline as to whether - like she said, well she still claims - Stephanie's very honest and everything -

DEPUTY PALMER: Uh, huh.

MOTHER: -- that she has no idea where the marijuana cigarette came from.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Which arrest was that?

MOTHER: She went with Charlie and the two of them were picked up for trespassing and possession of marijuana there were eight cigarettes and they don't know how it got there.

DEPUTY GLEASON: Yeah.

MOTHER: But in order for her - for us to contest this thing we would have to witness --

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: (unintelligible talking at the same time as mother) people and I said no way I gotta have that on my record and you have any contact with these people but he was very hostile person who heard the case he's --

DEPUTY GLEASON: Well his daughter got killed.

MOTHER: Yeah and all this but all he did he got talking about two girls that were down in Mexico and got in trouble and before he was finished he was so made that if it was Mother Superior or something they would have throw the book at, you know and we just sat there. There was no hearing we just listened to him lie and we listened to everything.

DEPUTY PALMER: How old are you now?

STEPHANIE SCHRAM: 18.

DEPUTY PALMER: 18?

MOTHER: She was 18 on the 13th, 13th of November.