MR. STOVITZ: Dr. Katsuyama; please.

THE SERGEANT AT ARMS: Dr. Katsuyama.

THE FOREMAN: Will you state your name; please.

THE WITNESS: My name is David M. Katsuyama.

THE FOREMAN: Will you raise your right hand and take the following oath:

You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give in this matter now pending before the Grand Jury of the County of Los Angeles shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

THE WITNESS: I do.

THE FOREMAN: Will you please be seated.

Q: Your name is David M. Katsuyama?

A: Katsuyama.

Q: K-a-t-s-u-y-a-m-a?

A: Right.

Q: And you are a licensed medical doctor?

A: Yes, l am.

Q: And how long have you been admitted to practice?

A: I got my license to practice medicine in 1960.

Q: And do you have a specialty; Doctor?

A: Yes. I am a specialist in pathology.

Q: Where did you obtain your specialty in pathology?

A: I took my residency at the Glendale Sanitarium and Hospital.

Q: And how long have you been practicing as a pathologist?

A: Well, including the training period of a residency I -- in 1960, ever since.

Q: And what title, if any, do you hold now, Doctor?

A: I am a Deputy Medical Examiner for the Coroner-Medical Examiner, County of Los Angeles.

Q: How long have you had that position; sir?

A: I have been a Deputy Medical Examiner since the first of the year.

My present title, I am Acting Chief of the Forensic Medicine Division of that office.

Q: And since the first of the year of 1969, approximately how many autopsies or postmortem examinations have you performed, approximately?

A: Probably about at least 300, maybe closer to four, five hundred.

Q: And on August the 11th, 1969, did you perform an autopsy on the body of Leno LaBianca, Coroner's No. 69-8859?

A: Yes, on August 11, 1969, I performed an autopsy on Leno LaBianca, our File No. 69-8859.

Q: Do you have, sir, photographs that are known as Coroner's photographs?

A: I believe so.

Q: I am now signing a receipt for fourteen 5 x 7 photographs.

I show you a photograph which depicts the head of a corpse with the same number.

Is that a photograph that was taken under your supervision and direction?

A: This was taken under my direction.

Q: And is that a photograph of the deceased in this case, Leno LaBianca?

A: Yes, that is.

MR. STOVITZ: May this photograph be marked Grand Jury Exhibit 41?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. STOVITZ: As a result of the autopsy examination that you performed on the person depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 41, did you form an opinion as to the cause of death of this individual?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: And what is that opinion?

A: That he died as a result of multiple stab wounds to the neck and abdomen, which caused massive hemorrhage.

Q: Did you find anything significant concerning these massive stab wounds?

Q: The multiplicity of the stab wounds and also another finding in which -- prior to the full examination of the unclothed body was found an electrical cord around the wrist and also I believe that there was something resembling a pillow case over his head, and if I remember correctly there was also writings on the abdomen.

In addition, there was a knife found in the neck which the Police Department took custody of.

MR. STOVITZ: All right, with respect to the item that you said was wrapped around the man's wrist, I have another photograph

May this photograph be marked as Grand Jury Exhibit 42?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. STOVITZ: I.show you Grand Jury Exhibit 42 and, more particularly, the hands of the individual.

Is this the photograph of the individual shown in Exhibit 41?

A: Yes, it is.

Q: All right, was that the way the hands of this individual shown in Exhibit 41 were tied when you first saw the body?

A: Yes, it was.

Q: And you described it as an electrical cord.

Did you see the actual copper wire inside?

A: It had the rubber coating with the rather deep mark between the two wires itself, and if I remember correctly, whether it was this electrical one or the other case, there was actually, I believe, a plug.

Q: So, then, that was significant.

Then you stated that there was something else that was significant concerning the body of this individual. You said that the knife was still in the neck; is that correct?

A: There was a knife still found in the neck.

The knife was present in the heck and the pillow case was pulled loosely over it.

MR. STOVITZ: I have a photograph depicting an individual with a knife protruding from his neck.

May this be marked Exhibit 43?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. STOVITZ: I show you Exhibit 43.

Is this the photograph of the same individual shown in Exhibit 41?

A: Yes, it is.

Q: And is that the way the individual shown in Exhibit 41 first appeared to you when you first noticed him?

A: No, because the head actually was -- he entire portion was still covered with the pillow case and the photograph -- there were several photographs taken of it without moving the materials around, and then after the general photographs were taken, then the pillow case was flipped back and -- at which time the knife was discovered.

Q: You stated that you removed this knife, the knife shown in Exhibit 43; is that correct?

A: It was removed and it was handed to one of the criminalists from the Los Angeles Police Department, I believe.

Q: All right, now, do you know what an ordinary kitchen knife looks like; Doctor?

A: Yes, what I believe is a kitchen or a steak knife.

Q: And was that the type of knife that you saw in Exhibit 43?

A: Yes, it was

Q: In other words, it wasn't a knife that would be used by, say, a lumberjack or a man that was cutting wood, or anything like that, but someone using it in a kitchen?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, I believe you stated something about the man's abdomen.

Would you tell us did you notice anything unusual about his abdomen?

A: Yes, several letters were roughly scrawled on it. Actually, they were the letters "W-A-R."

Q: And they were scrawled in what fashion, Doctor, with pen and ink?

A: No, it appeared that some cutting instrument had been used to scratch it.

I believe, also, that at the scene the was a tined large fork found, which you can see several tine marks, also, there.

MR. STOVITZ: I have a photograph, Mr. Bishop, of a man's abdomen with the letters "W-A-R" written on there.

May this be marked as Grand Jury Exhibit 44?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. STOVITZ: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 44.

Is that the abdomen of the same individual shown in Exhibit 41?

A: Yes, it is.

Q: And is this the writing that you observed on the man's abdomen?

A: Yes, it is.

Q: Now, next to the writing there appears to be four cuts into the skin; is that correct?

A: These are four rather deep stab wounds that went into the abdomen.

Q: Now, those four stab wounds, to your knowledge, Doctor, from what you could tell, were they made by same instrument, these four?

A: Yes.

Q: What type of instrument was it that made those four?

A: It was a sharp knife-like instrument.

Q: Did this knife-like instrument nave two sharp edges or one sharp edge, if you could tell from your examination of the body?

A: I believe it actually had only one sharp edge.

Q: Approximately what was the total number of stab wounds that you found in the body of Mr. Leno LaBianca?

A: That I would have to count.

There were four or five in the neck, and then four in the abdomen and one on the back.

Q: Now, in addition to the hands being tied, did you notice any wrapping around the neck of Mr. Leno LaBianca?

A: There was actually around the pillow case a segment of electrical cord..

MR. STOVITZ: I have another photograph.

May this photograph showing some electrical cord be marked as Grand Jury Exhibit 45?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. STOVITZ: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 45.

Is that a photograph of the same individual shown in Exhibit 41?

A: Yes, it is.

Q: And is this the electrical cord that you have just described?

A: Yes, it.

Q: And where is this electrical cord with relation to the decedent's head that is shown in Exhibit 41?

A: Actually, this was over the pillow case that was over his head and the back portion was on the lower portion of the neck and the forward portion was about just above -- just below his nose. The nose is at a somewhat prominent point, about there.

Q: By "there," you mean near the knot?

A: Yes.

Q: And you can actually see the plug from the electrical wire; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, was this same electrical wire also tied around his wrists in Exhibit 42?

A: No. No, I don't believe it was.

Q: All right, on Exhibit 42, you don't know whether that is an electrical wire?

A: As I remember it was an electrical wire. I think it was a separate piece.

Q: But in Exhibit 45 you are sure that that is electrical wire?

A: That is.

Q: Did you finally count the number of stab wounds that you found; Doctor?

A: As I said, there were four or five on the neck, some were rather irregular, and there are four in the anterior portion of the abdomen and there was one in the mid-back.

Q: And the multiple stab wounds of the neck, would those have caused the death to this individual; sir?

A: One of the stab wounds of the neck had caused severance of the right carotid artery, which is one of the main vessels that feeds the structures of the head.

Q: And what about the stab wounds to the chest?

A: Actually, the stab wounds into the abdomen, they had perforated parts of the bowel, the colon and portions of the tissue that hold the bowel the abdomen.

Q: Now, did you also perform an autopsy upon the body of Rosemary LaBianca?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: And did you perform that autopsy at the same time, August 11, 1969, as you did the one on Leno LaBianca?

A: Yes, it was on the same day.

Q: I notice that on your actual records that your office issued that date is listed as August the 4th, 1969.

Is that an error; Doctor?

A: It is an error. I will have to have that corrected.

Q: So, then, on the top page of this official report and on page 2, page 3, page 4 and page 5, the very top where it says August the 4th, that is in error; is that correct?

A: Yes, it is.

Q: But you did sign the report on August the 17th, 1969; is that correct?

A: On that day or very shortly thereafter.

That was when the report was finally typed up.

MR. STOVITZ: And you have with you nine 5 x 7 pictures.

I will sign for you the receipt that you have.

Taking one photograph out of this group, it shows a face of a female individual.

May this photograph be marked as Grand Jury Exhibit 46.

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. STOVITZ: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 46.

Is this the individual depicted in this photograph upon whom you performed an autopsy, File No. 69-8860?

A: Yes, it is

Q: And, then, what was the date that you performed that autopsy?

A: August 11, 1969.

Q: As a result of the autopsy performed on this individual, which we will now call Rosemary LaBianca, were you able to form an opinion as to the cause of death?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: And what is that opinion; Doctor?

A: I ascribed the cause of death to multiple stab wounds to the neck and trunk, causing massive hemorrhage.

Q: Approximately how many stab wounds did you find in the body of Rosemary LaBianca?

A: There are nine major wounds in her back and on the upper portion of the back and on the lower portion of the back were numerous small superficial, relatively superficial cutting wounds over the lower portion of the trunk and on the buttock.

Q: Did you find any type of wire wrapped around this individual?

A: This was also wrapped around the extremities, yes, I believe, and also around the neck.

MR. STOVITZ: I have another photograph.

May this photograph be marked Grand Jury Exhibit 47?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. STOVITZ: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 47.

Is this a photograph of the same individual as depicted in Exhibit 46?

A: Yes, it is.

Q: And does this Exhibit 47 show that electrical wire that you have just described?

A: Yes, there is a definite plug, also, quite visible.

Q: What section of the body is shown in Exhibit 47?

A: This is the body before any clothing or other material was removed and this represents how they had appeared, with what appeared to be a pillow case and the wire cord wrapped around it.

Did you find any type of instrument still in the body that could have caused death?

A: Not on this person.

MR. STOVITZ: I have a photograph of the back of this individual.

May this photograph be marked Exhibit 48?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. STOVITZ: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 48, are the cuts in the back some of the stab wounds that you have described in your autopsy report?

A: It shows the -- depicts the major stab wounds and also the multiple superficial wounds on the back.

Q: Were you able to compare the stab wounds, Doctor, with the stab wounds that you noticed in Leno LaBianca's back?

A: Yes.

Q: And as a result of that comparison, were you able to form an opinion as to whether or not these were caused by the same instrument or the same type of instrument that caused the injuries on Mr. Leno LaBianca?

A: My opinion is that they were caused by the same type of instrument.

Q: But you cannot say it was the same instrument?

A: No.

Q: Your examination, I believe, began at what time on August the 11th?

A: 11:30.

Q: Were you able to form an opinion as to the time of the death of these individuals?

A: No, not at that particular time.

I will have to express an opinion based on other factors.

Q: First of all, tell us what your opinion is and then tell us what these other factors are; sir.

A: My opinion is that the person -- that Mr. LaBianca was dead for approximately ten hours, at least, at 3:52 a.m. on the morning of 8-11-69, when our investigator made a determination of the liver temperature to the body of the deceased.

Q: Did you notice any writings at all or the body of Rosemary LaBianca, the lady depicted in Exhibit 46?

A: No, I did not.

Q: Did you examine the sexual organs of both individuals in the two autopsies that you performed?

A: I don't think sperm studies were done on Mr. LaBianca, but on Mrs. LaBianca a vaginal smear for sperm was done.

No sperm were found on the person of Mrs. LaBianca.

Q: Was there any mutilation of the sexual organs of either Mr. LaBianca or Rosemary LaBianca?

A: No.

MR. STOVITZ: I have no further questions.

THE FOREMAN: Is there any member of the Jury that has a question that they would like to ask the witness?

You are admonished --

MR. BUGLIOSI: Sir, there may be another question here.

Q BY MR. STOVITZ: Now that you have have had an opportunity to see the photograph, Exhibit 47, showing the electrical wire on Mrs. LaBianca, and Exhibit 45, showing the electrical wire on Mr. LaBianca, sir, I'd like to again show you Exhibit No. 42, the hands of Mr. LaBianca, and show you an enlargement of that photograph, which we will ask to be marked as Exhibit No. 49.

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. STOVITZ: And ask you to look at that.

Does that refresh your memory, sir, as to what type of cord or what type of ligature you did find around the wrists of Mr. Leno LaBianca?

A: Well, it appears to be electrical cord.

Q: It still appears to be electrical cord?

A: Yes.

MR. STOVITZ: All right.

THE FOREMAN: May this witness be excused?

MR. BUGLIOSI: Yes. I'd like to have the witness retain, however, not in the Grand Jury Room, but we are seeking to the rope, or whatever it is, tying Mr. LaBianca's hands. We are trying to get the rope up here right now.

THE FOREMAN: You are admonished not to discuss or impart at any time outside of this Jury Room the questions that have been asked of you in regard to this matter, or your answers, until authorized by this Grand Jury or the Court to discuss or impart such matters.

Will you wait in the witness room until we bring up this cord.

MR. STOVITZ: Mr. DeCarlo.

THE FOREMAN: I would like to remind you that you are still under oath.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I realize that.

THE FOREMAN: Will you take a seat.

Q: Mr. DeCarlo, you are still under oath, you realize that; sir?

A: Yes, I do.

Q: Do you recall your testifying earlier this morning that you knew Mr. Manson out at Spahn Ranch; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: How frequently would you see Mr. Manson?

A: I saw him every day.

Q: To your recollection did Mr. Manson wear any type of a leather thong around his neck out at Spahn Ranch?

A: He wore just a piece of leather.

Q: How thick was the leather?

A: Approximately an eighth of an inch thick.

Q: Would you classify the leather as a leather thong at all?

A: Well, a thong -- I don't know -- thongs, I always thought thongs were sandals that you wear, but the leather you are talking about is the leather -- they made a buckskin out of -- like we make buckskin pants and when it comes time to tie everything together, they use this leather to weave it back and forth in order to hold it together.

Q: And Mr. Manson used to wear this leather around his neck?

A: Yes, he did, one little piece of it.

Q: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 49 for identification and direct your attention to what appears to be a rope tied around the two hands of the individual shown in the photograph.

Did the rope, or leather, or what have you, that Mr. Manson used to wear around his neck look the same or different from the rope that you see in this photograph here?

A: That is the same.

Q: Is your answer that the rope that you see in this photograph, Grand Jury Exhibit No. 49, is the same type rope that Mr. Manson used to wear around his neck?

A: Yes, it is.

Q: Did you see rope like this in abundance on the Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: What did they use it for?

A: They made buckskin clothes out of it.

Charlie had a set of buckskins that the girls made for him and it was all pieces of leather that was made and instead of stitching it with thread they stitched it with that leather right there.

Q: So Charlie's Family used this type of rope quite a bit?

A: All the time. Everybody wore buckskins. Everybody wore the leather pants, the girls made them for everybody.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Thank you, no further questions.

MR. STOVITZ: Will you admonish this witness, Mr. Bishop, that the admonition you gave before still applies to this last testimony?

THE WITNESS: Oh, I'll keep it down.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Thank you, Mr. DeCarlo.

MR. STOVITZ: Mr. Lucarelli; please.

THE SERGEANT AT ARMS: Mr. Lucarelli.

THE FOREMAN: Will you state your name; please.

THE WITNESS: Rorie M. Lucarelli.

THE FOREMAN: Will you raise your right hand and take the following oath:

You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give in this matter now pending before the Grand Jury of the County of Los Angeles shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

THE WITNESS: I do.

THE FOREMAN: Will you please be seated.

Q: What is your business or occupation; sir?

A: I am a police officer for the City of Los Angeles, presently assigned to the Highland Park Division.

Q: Were you familiar with an individual by the name of Leno LaBianca in his lifetime?

A: I was.

Q: Were you familiar with an individual named Rosemary LaBianca in her lifetime?

A: Yes.

Q: And approximately how many years did you know these people?

A: I have known Leno 45 plus years and Rosemary about 10 years.

Q: And what was the relationship between the two people?

A: Husband and wife.

Q: Do you know approximately how long they had been married?

A: About eight to ten years, as best as I can recall.

Q: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 41.

Is that a photograph of Leno LaBianca in death?

A: Yes, it is.

Q: I show you a photograph of Grand Jury Exhibit No. 46.

Is that a photograph of Rosemary LaBianca in death?

A: Yes it is.

Q: Do you recall when it was the last time that you visited their home there on Waverly Drive?

A: Oh, I visited their home the night of the killing.

Q: All right, in other words, you arrived at the time that the police arrived; is that correct?

A: I received a call at the Highland Park Station and I went directly there. It was right around midnight, just before. I was on duty at the time.

Q: I'd like to show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 17 and 18.

Are these photographs fair representations of the home in which Mr. and Mrs. LaBianca resided at the time of their death?

A: Yes, they are.

Q: Do you know approximately how long Mr. and Mrs. LaBianca had lived in that particular home shown in Exhibits 17 and 18?

A: Well, Leno had lived there when he was a boy, but they most recently lived there a matter of months. Shortly after they sold their other home in the Los Feliz area. They have lived there ever since they sold that home.

Q: Could you fix the date, let's say, from the incident that occurred on August 10, 1969?

Could you fix it, say, by the previous Christmas of '68?

Had they lived there the previous Christmas of '68?

A: No, I don't believe they lived there -- I'm not sure. We did attend a Christmas party at his other home but I don't believe it was that year, it was the year before.

Q: And did Mr. and Mrs. LaBianca live at this particular home shown in these exhibits with any other individuals, grown children or younger children?

A: Yes, they did. Rosemary's son Frank, and her daughter Sue Struthers did reside there on occasions. I don't know that they lived there all the time.

Q: Do you recall whether Frank and Sue were living there in August of 1969? Were they away at school or vacation, or what?

A: Of '69?

Q: Yes, August of '69.

A: Well, Frank was at home. The LaBianca's were in the process of going on their vacation at this particular time and I think Frank was gone a few days at the river, or, the lake, with some friends.

Q: And Sue?

A: I believe Sue had an apartment of her own.

Q: Sue's last name is Struthers, you say?

A: Yes.

Q: S-t-r-u-t-h-e-r-s?

A: Right.

Q: Now, you stated that when you arrived at the LaBianca home on August the 10th, the police officers were already there?

A: Yes, they were.

Q: And did you recognize Mr. Galindo as one of the officers?

A: He was already there.

Q: When you arrived Mr. Galindo was already there?

A: Yes.

MR. STOVITZ: I have no further questions.

THE FOREMAN: Does any member of the Jury have a question they would like to ask the witness?

You are admonished not to discuss or impart at any time outside of this Jury Room the questions that have been asked of you in regard to this matter, or your answers, until authorized by this Grand Jury or the Court to discuss or impart such matters.

You may be excused.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Galindo.

THE SERGEANT AT ARMS: Mr. Galindo.

THE FOREMAN: Will you state your name; please.

THE WITNESS: Danny Galindo, G-a-l-i-n-d-o.

THE FOREMAN: Will you raise your right hand and take the following oath:

You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give in this matter now pending before the Grand Jury of the County of Los Angeles shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

THE WITNESS: I do.

THE FOREMAN: Would you please be seated.

Q: What is your occupation and assignment; sir?

A: Police officer for the City of Los Angeles, assigned to the Homicide Division.

Q: Are you one of the investigating officers in the LaBianca homicides?

A: I am.

Q: Did you proceed to the LaBianca residence located at 3301 Waverly Drive in Los Angeles on August 11, 1969?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: What time did you arrive there?

A: Approximately 1:00 a.m.

Q: Now, when you refer to the LaBianca residence, I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 17 for identification.

Does that appear to be a photograph of the LaBianca residence?

A: Yes, it is a good likeness.

Q: This is the residence that you went to at 1:00 a.m. on August 11, 1969; is that correct?

A: That is correct.

Q: Would you tell the Grand Jury what you observed upon arriving at the residence?

A: On arrival there were other officers there, mainly uniformed officers and some other detectives from the Hollywood Division.

I entered the interior of the living room at this residence at 3301 South Waverly Drive -- or, North Waverly Drive, whatever it is.

As I entered I observed the body of the deceased, Mr. LaBianca, lying in an east-west direction besides the couch and just a little bit angled with his left leg underneath the massive coffee table.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, I have here a photograph depicting a Caucasian lying on what appears to be a living room floor.

May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit 50?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: For identification.

I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 50 for identification.

Do you know what is shown on that photograph; sir?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: What is shown in that photograph?

A: This depicts the scene that I observed, that I described a moment ago.

Q: You say "the scene," are you referring to Mr. LaBianca?

A: Yes, the body of Mr. LaBianca with his left leg underneath the coffee table.

Q: Does this appear to be a fork protruding out of his stomach near the navel?

A: Yes, that was sticking just above his navel, approximately two inches, and just left of the midline.

Q: Is this photograph a fair and accurate representation of what Mr. LaBianca looked like when you arrived at the residence; sir?

A: Yes, it is.

That photograph was taken at my direction,

MR. BUGLIOSI: All right, I have here another photograph showing the head portion of Mr. LaBianca.

May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit 51 for identification?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 51 for identification.

Do you know what is shown in that photograph?

A: Well, I could make no comment on this. I did not attend the postmortem examination.

MR. BUGLIOSI: May I withdraw Grand Jury Exhibit 51 at this time?

THE FOREMAN: It can be withdrawn.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I have here another photograph, Mr. Foreman, depicting a male lying on the floor, living room floor of a residence.

May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit 51 for identification?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 51 for identification.

Do you know what is shown in that photograph?

A: Yes, I do.

Q: What is shown in that photograph?

A: It is the body of the deceased, Mr. LaBianca, and it shows a portion of the cord from a lamp, the massive lamp that was on the lamp table at the edge of the couch, and it shows some rather angry scars on his stomach area and what appears to be either "W-A-R," or, "X-I-A-R." Also some wounds in the abdomen area.

Q: Do the angry scars on Mr. LaBianca's stomach make the word war, w-a-r?

A: That is what it appears to be.

Q: Is this a fair and accurate representation of the way Mr. LaBianca looked when you arrived at the residence?

A: Yes, that photograph was also taken at my direction.

Q: Did you observe any other human being inside the residence who appeared to be deceased at the time of your arrival?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Who is that?

A: That was Mrs. LaBianca, as we later determined.

Q: Where did you observe Mrs. LaBianca's body?

A: She was lying on the floor, face down, on the outside of the bed in the bedroom, which is located at the southwest corner of the premises.

Q: Did she appear to be dead at the time of your arrival?

A: She was obviously dead.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, I have here another photograph depicting a female Caucasian lying on a floor of a residence.

May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit 52 for identification?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 52 for identification.

Do you know what is shown in that photograph?

A: Yes, this is a photograph of the remains that I observed of Mrs. LaBianca at the time that observed it.

Q: Was that photograph taken under your direction?

A: It was.

Q: Does it appear to be a fair and accurate representation of the way Mrs. LaBianca looked when you arrived at the house?

A: An excellent photograph.

Q: Apart from what it depicts, it is an excellent photograph?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 41 for identification, which has previously been identified as a Coroner's photograph, of Leno LaBianca.

Does the Leno LaBianca appearing in that photograph, Grand Jury Exhibit 41 for identification, appear to be the same person whom you have identified as Leno LaBianca in Grand Jury Exhibit 50 for identification?

A: I never saw Mr. LaBianca in this stage as depicted in People's -- that is 41?

Q: Yes.

A: I didn't attend the postmortem examination.

Q: Have you ever seen a photograph of Leno LaBianca?

A: Yes.

Q: Does that appear to be Leno LaBianca to you?

A: Yes.

Q: Looking at this photograph that is named Leno LaBianca, does it appear to be the same person whom you identified earlier as Leno LaBianca in Grand Jury Exhibit No. 50 for identification?

A: Yes.

Q: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 46, a Coroner's photograph of a female Caucasian, previously identified as Rosemary LaBianca.

Does the Rosemary LaBianca depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 46 for identification appear to be the same woman whom you previously identified in Grand Jury Exhibit 52 for identification as Rosemary LaBianca?

A: Yes, however, I can't associate the two pictures.

However, I have seen other photographs of Mrs. LaBianca, and the People's No. --

Q: This is Grand Jury Exhibit 46, the Coroner's photograph.

A: Coroner's photograph No. 46 appears to be the same person as Mrs. LaBianca whose photograph I have seen.

Q: When you say "the same Mrs. LaBianca," are you referring to the same Mrs. LaBianca whom you have previously identified in Grand Jury Exhibit 52 for identification?

A: Yes.

Q: What else did you observe inside the LaBianca residence when you arrived in the early morning hours of August the 11th?

A: Beginning with the remains of Mr. LaBianca, I observed a large amount of blood that had gathered on a cushion seat on the couch beneath which Mr. LaBianca lay.

I observed in what should be the den area just north of the living room a crumpled piece of paper that appeared to contain smears of blood.

In the living room on the wall, on the south wall by the door at the top left-most corner of the door and pointing diagonally to that corner, I observed the lettering "R-i-s-e," and it appeared to be in blood. In any event, it was reddish.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, I have here a photograph of a picture hanging from a wall and just above the northeast corner of the picture are the letters.

May the photograph be marked Grand Jury Exhibit 53 for identification?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 53 for identification.

Do you know what is shown in that photograph?

A: Yes, it is that scene of the lettering "Rise" that I described, and this photograph was also taken at my direction.

Q: And does it appear to be a fair and accurate representation of what was shown therein?

A: Yes, sir, excellently depicted.

Q: Did you observe any other writings in blood inside the LaBianca residence?

A: On the north wall of the living room, facing north and just left of the archway into the den there was a lettering "Death to Pigs" in rather large reddish letters on the wall and it appeared that a picture of some sort had been removed from the wall.

Q: Did the "Death to Pigs" appear to be written in blood?

A: Yes.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I have here another photograph, Mr. Foreman, of a wall of a living room with the words "Death to Pigs" written on the wall.

May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit 54 for identification?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 54 for identification.

Do you know what is shown in that photograph?

A: Yes, it is the lettering that I described, "Death to Pigs" on the north wall of the living room.

Q: Was that photograph taken under your direction?

A: It was.

Q: Does it appear to be a fair and accurate representation of what is shown there?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you observe any other writings in blood inside the LaBianca residence?

A: In the den, which would be in the center, eastern portion of the residence at the premises, through the den and into the kitchen, again on the north wall, of the kitchen there was a refrigerator on which on the door the lettering "Helter-Skelter" had been written, apparently in blood.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, I have here another photograph depicting a refrigerator inside a kitchen of a residence with the words "Helter-Skelter" written thereon.

May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit 55 for identification?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 55 for identification.

Do you know what is shown thereon?

A: Yes, it the refrigerator described with the lettering "H-e-a-l-t-e-r" across the top right-hand door and right underneath the word "S-k-e-l-t-e-r," in a combination of capital letters and lower case letters.

Q: Was that photograph taken under your direction?

A: Yes.

Q: Does it appear to be a fair and accurate representation of what you observed on the refrigerator door when you arrived at the LaBianca residence?

A: Yes.

Q: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 49 for identification. It is a Coroner's photograph.

Now, you did not -- you were not present at the postmortem examination; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: When you arrived at the LaBianca residence, what was the condition of Mr. LaBianca's hands; if you recall?

A: At the time the Coroner removed the remains I had him turn the remains of both Mr. and Mrs. LaBianca without removing the facial cover and I observed at the time that Mr. LaBianca's body was turned over, I observed a leather thong tied around the wrists.

Mr. LaBianca, he was wearing a wristwatch at the time.

Q: Looking at Grand Jury Exhibit 49 for identification you will notice that there is some leather rope, or material of that type, wrapped around, or, tied around the wrists of Mr. LaBianca.

Does this photograph depict how Mr. LaBianca's hands were tied when you arrived at the residence?

A: Yes, taking into account that I observed the body from right to left -- from left to right, instead of from right to left, but apparently this is exactly almost similar to what I observed.

Q: When you arrived at the scene Mr. LaBianca's hands were tied about the same way they are tied in Grand Jury Exhibit 49?

A: When he was turned over that is the way they appeared to me.

Q: Now, you say leather thongs, was it rope tied around Mr. LaBianca's hands or could they have been electrical wires?

A: No. No, these are like the leather shoelaces that are manufactured for that purpose.

They are also -- you will see them sometimes as, oh, neckties with the -- with a little, probably, hook, that sort of thing.

It is treated leather. It was leather but it is treated leather.

Q: You observed no electrical wire around LaBianca's hands when you arrived at the residence?

A: I didn't say that. I did see an electrical cord around his neck.

Q: But not around his hands?

A: No.

Q: Did you ascertain whether or not the inside of the LaBianca residence had been ransacked in any manner whatsoever?

A: I attempted to.

Q: What was your finding in that regard?

A: After approximately five or six hours search it was our determination that a large amount of valuables still remained within the premises, including several diamond rings, two large jars of coins, several coin collections, bits, many guns and rifles.

There didn't appear to be any ransacking of any sort.

The only possibility of ransacking would have been the evidence of watermelon rinds in the kitchen basin but, generally, it wouldn't indicate to me as a policeman that a ransacking had occurred for the purpose of stealing or burglarizing.

Q: Did you go to the shower area at the residence?

A: I went to the bathroom, yes, sir.

Q: Did you look into the shower area?

A: Yes.

Q: Was there anything unusual about that?

A: Nothing that I noted particularly remarkable about it other than underneath the wash basin there was some paper towels that had been water soaked and appeared to have blood, kind of reddish, and I submitted those for examination by our Scientific Investigation Department.

Q: What was the condition of the doors when you entered the LaBianca residence at 1:00 a.m. on August the 11th?

A: When I arrived there the front door was completely closed and there was a police officer standing there to admit other detectives or other officers going in and out.

The door on the east side of the building that leads into the patio from the east central den was ajar and I was told that was the way the door had been found on the arrival of other officers there.

Q: For clarification, again, Sergeant, what time did you arrive at the LaBianca residence?

A: At approximately 1:00 o'clock in the morning, give or take a few seconds.

Q: What day?

A: On August 11, 1969.

Q: As part of your investigation of the murder scene did you attempt to ascertain at approximately what time Leno and Rosemary LaBianca met their death?

A: Yes.

Q: What conclusion did you come to?

A: I reached none. That was in progress at the time. I went for a different type of investigation altogether.

Q: Since that time have you reached any conclusion as to the time of death of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca?

A: Not to the satisfaction of my personal curiosity or professional knowledge.

Q: Within what period of time do you feel Leno and Rosemary LaBianca met their death?

A: This is regressing sometime between -- I was able to determine on August the 10th, 1969, Mr. and Mrs. LaBianca arrived at their home, or near their home, deposited their daughter at a different location, at 4636 Greenwood Place, and then that was about 1:00 o'clock in the morning on August the 10th.

I was able to determine that they then went to a location other than their home where Mr. LaBianca bought a newspaper and I wasn't able to determine exactly what time he arrived home.

However, I was able to determine from Frank Struthers, the son, Mrs. LaBianca's son, arrived home in the neighborhood of 10:30 a.m. on August the 10th and our investigation disclosed that at that time the LaBiancas had already suffered their demise.

Q: From whom did the police first secure information about what had happened at the LaBianca residence?

A: It was a Tinkers to Evers to Chance sort of thing where on the arrival of Frank Struthers at his home he noticed some peculiarities around the residence and he became rather frightened about going into the residence because certain things weren't as they usually were, and he went to a phone booth and phoned Susan Struthers and, unable to locate her, phoned her place of employment, who then contacted Susan Struthers who then phoned Frank Struthers who was then in a phone booth at a gas station not far removed from the residence, and a radio unit was summoned to the scene.

They met with the police officers and they then went to the front door and determined that the front door was closed but that it was not locked.

Q: So Frank Struthers was the first person who contacted the Los Angeles Police Department?

A: I have no exact knowledge of that.

I know that he started the machinery in motion by contacting his sister and then the police.

Q: What time did the police first arrived at the LaBianca residence, the first police officers?

A: I don't have the sheet but it would be nearly 10:30 o'clock on August the 10th, 1969, give or take a few minutes.

Q: A.M. or P.M.?

A: A.M.

Q: When you looked at the shower area did you form any opinion as to whether the shower had been used?

A: I didn't, no.

Q: When did the police, again, first arrive at the LaBianca residence, according to your records; sir?

A: I don't reflect it on the record. I had to estimate, I'd say around 10:30, it would be around 10:35. Twenty to thirty-five hours, 06839 arrived to talk to Frank and Susan Struthers.

Q: Twenty-two-thirty-five would be 10:35 p.m.?

A: Yes.

Q: On August the 10th, 1969?

A: Yes.

Q: You arrived about three and a half hours thereafter at 1:00 o'clock in the morning on August the 11th?

A: About two and a half hours, two hours and forty-five in that area of time..

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.

THE FOREMAN: Is there any member of the Jury that has a question they would like to ask the witness?

You are admonished --

MR. BUGLIOSI: There is another question here,

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Were you able to find either Mr. or Mrs. LaBianca's wallets on the premises?

A: Approximately somewhere in the neighborhood of around 7:00 o'clock in the morning of August the 11th, Sergeant Lucarelli and I were able to locate Mr. LaBianca's wallet based on knowledge that Sergeant Lucarelli had of Mr. LaBianca's habits and of Susan Struthers' knowledge of Mr. LaBianca's habits, and we found his wallet and some ID cards, not very much money. I can't remember if there was any money, but several cards, in the glove compartment of his T-Bird which was hooked up to the boat, and in the trunk of the car we found a black briefcase containing many many business records.

Also, we found two bags full of coins that allegedly are nickels, mint nickels, and I think there were about $200.00 worth, I don't know.

Later, we made a -- in conjunction with the search they were making to determine whether or not there had been a burglary or what kind of evidence that they have existed, we were able to determine that a rather beat up wallet was missing, including some credit cards in the name of Mrs. Rosemary LaBianca. These we were not able to find.

As a matter of fact, to the best of my knowledge, these are the only things that were missing out of the premises.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.

THE FOREMAN: You are admonished not to discuss or impart at any time outside of this Jury Room the questions that have been asked of you in regard to this matter, or your answers, until authorized by this Grand Jury or the Court to discuss or impart such matters.

You may be excused.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

THE FOREMAN: We will take a recess.

THE FOREMAN: You may continue.

THE FOREMAN: I will remind you that you are under oath.

Q: Doctor, you are still under oath, sir.

Since the recess in this case were you able to refresh your memory from your notes concerning the tie that you discovered around the hands of Mr. Leno LaBianca?

A: Yes, I found this note in protocol.

"The hands are tied together with a rather thin leather thong."

Q: So, now, again showing you Grand Jury Exhibit 49, I ask you whether that refreshes your memory.

A: Yes, it does.

Q: And is that, rather than being an electric cord as you first described, is that the leather thong that you have just described that you found listed in your notes?

A: Yes, that is the thin leather thong.

MR. STOVITZ: Thank you very kindly.

THE FOREMAN: You may be excused.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Sergeant Frank Patchett.

THE SERGEANT AT ARMS: Sergeant Patchett.

THE FOREMAN: Will you state your name; please.

THE WITNESS: Frank J. Patchett, P-a-t-c-h-e-t-t.

THE FOREMAN: Will you raise your right hand and take the following oath:

You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give in this matter now pending. before the Grand Jury of the County of Los Angeles shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

THE WITNESS: I do.

THE FOREMAN: Would you please be seated.

Q: Spell your name, again; sir.

A: P-a-t-c-h-e-t-t.

Q: Sergeant?

A: That is correct.

Q: Sergeant Patchett, are you one of the chief investigators in the LaBianca homicides?

A: I am.

Q: Did your investigation of the LaBianca homicides take you to Independence, California?

A: It did.

Q: What date did you go to Independence?

A: I believe it was November 6th and 7th.

Q: Did you go to the Sheriff's Jail there in Independence?

A: I did.

Q: A little small jail on the corner?

A: That is correct.

Q: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 2 for identification.

Do you know the male individual shown in that photograph?

A: Yes, that is Mr. Charles Manson.

Q: What date, again, were you up there in Independence?

A: November 6th and 7th.

Q: Was Mr. Manson in custody inside the jail on November the 6th and 7th in Independence?

A: Yes, he was.

Q: Did you ask the Sheriff's Office if you could examine Mr. Manson's clothing at the jail in Independence?

A: I did.

Q: Did you, in fact, examine Mr. Manson's clothing?

A: I did.

Q: What clothing did you examine?

A: I looked at a pair of trousers and a vest.

Q: Where were those trousers and vest?

A: What would be the Property Room where the prisoners' clothing is kept.

Q: This is inside the Sheriff's Jail in Independence, California?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you recover anything from Mr. Manson's clothing?

A: I did.

Q: What did you recover?

A: I removed a leather thong from a moccasin-type boot and also a leather thong from a pair of leather trousers.

I notice here that one is longer than the other.

Q: Would you please indicate which thong you removed from the moccasin and which thong from the trousers.

A: The longer, as I recall, came from the moccasin and the shorter, newer-looking one came from the trousers,

MR. BUGLIOSI: I have here, Mr. Foreman, what appear to be a leather thong.

May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit next in order, 56?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 56 for identification.

Is this the thong that you removed from Mr. Manson's moccasin?

A: That is correct.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I have here another thong, Mr. Foreman,

May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit 57 for identification?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 57 for identification.

Is this the leather thong that you removed from Mr. Manson's trousers?

A: Yes.

Q: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 49 for identification.

You will notice that it is a photograph of a male Caucasian. His hands are tied behind his back with what appears to be some type of a leather thong, or other type of material.

Did you ever see the material which is shown in this photograph?

A: I have.

Q: Where did you observe it?

A: In the Property Room at the Police Administration Building.

Q: What type of material is that that is wrapped around Mr. LaBianca's hands?

A: What I describe as a leather thong.

Q: And did you take a good look at the leather thong, which had been tied around Mr. LaBianca's hands?

A: I did.

Q: Did you ever compare the leather thongs which were tied around Mr. LaBianca's hands with the two pieces of leather thongs which you recovered from Mr. Manson's clothing in the jail in Independence?

A: I did.

Q: Did you form any opinion as a result of the comparison?

A: It was my opinion that they were similar.

Q: Did they appear to be different in any fashion?

A: No, other than that perhaps this thong is a little more worn.

The thongs around his hands are closer in appearance to this, although they are worn a little bit more than this, but by size and to look at them they appear to be the same.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Thank you.

Are there any questions from the Jurors?

No further questions.

THE FOREMAN: You are admonished not to discuss or impart at any time outside of this Jury Room the questions that have been asked of you in regard to this matter, or your answers, until authorized by this Grand Jury or the Court to discuss or impart such matters.

You may be excused.

MR. STOVITZ: Nancy Pitman.

THE SERGEANT AT ARMS: Miss Pitman.

THE FOREMAN: Will you state your name; please.

THE WITNESS: Nancy Laura Pitman.

THE FOREMAN: Will you raise your right hand and take the following oath:

You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give in this matter now pending before the Grand Jury of the County of Los Angeles shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

THE WITNESS: I do.

THE FOREMAN: Will you please be seated.

Q: Will you state your name and spell your first, middle and last name; please.

A: Nancy Laura Pitman.

Q: N-a-n-c-y is the first name?

A: Yes.

Q: L-a-u-r-a?

A: Yes.

Q: P-i-t-t-m-a-n?

A: One "t."

Q: And is it Miss or Mrs. Pitman?

A: Miss.

Q: Miss Pitman, I understand that you are under arrest for some charge in Inyo County at this time; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: We do not intend to ask you any questions concerning that charge for which you are under arrest; do you understand that?

A: Yes.

Q: I understand that you were also arrested on August the 16th, 1969, by the Sheriff's Office in Los Angeles County and thereafter released; is that correct?

A: Yeah, I believe so.

Q: We do not intend to ask you any questions concerning that arrest and I understand there are no charges pending from that arrest; is that correct?

A: No, there aren't.

Q: So, now, we are going to ask you some questions concerning ten days before August the 16th, 1969, as to where you were living, who you were associating with, and certain things of that nature.

Are you willing to answer these questions truthfully?

A: Yes.

Q: And you understand that no one is forcing you to testify; do you understand that?

A: Yes.

Q: First, I ask you whether or not you know the girl shown in photograph Exhibit 1.

A: Yes.

Q: And what is that girl's name?

A: Sadie.

Q: Sadie Glutz?

A: Yes.

Q: Was she arrested with you on August the 16th, 1969?

A: I think so.

Q: I show you a girl depicted in Exhibit 5.

Do you know what that girl's name is?

A: Yes.

Q: What is her name?

A: Linda.

Q: Is that Linda Kasabian?

A: Yes, I believe so.

Q: Was she arrested with you on August the 16th, 1969?

A: I don't believe she was.

Q: I show you another girl shown in Exhibit 3.

Do you know what her name is?

A: Yes.

Q: What is her name?

A: Katie.

Q: Do you know her by the name of Patricia Krenwinkel?

A: I knew that was her name but she went by Katie with me.

Q: Was she arrested with you on August the 16th, 1969?

A: Yes.

Q: I show you another girl, Exhibit 16.

Do you know what that girl's name is?

A: Yes.

Q: What is her name?

A: Lovella.

Q: Is she also known as Leslie Sankston?

A: Yes.

Q: Was she arrested with you on August 16. 1969?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, without telling us what you are in custody for, was she, this girl in Exhibit 16, Leslie Sankston, in custody with you in Inyo County?

A: Yes.

Q: Was she transported from Inyo County down to the Los Angeles County Jail about a week ago?

A: Yes.

Q: And to your knowledge is she in custody at the Sybil Brand Institute right now?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, I show you a man depicted in Exhibit 15.

Do you know what that man's name is?

A: Clem.

Q: Do you know him by any other name?

A: Steve.

Q: I show you another man depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 4.

Do you know what that man's name is?

A: Chuck.

Q: Chuck. Do you know him by any other name?

A: Tex.

Q: And going back, now, to August the 16th, 1969, how long had you been living at the Spahn Ranch?

A: On and off for about a year.

Q: And going back to the ten days before August the 16th, 1969, what particular place did you live in?

In other words, where did you usually put your bed and sleep at night?

A: In a trailer alongside George Spahn's house.

Q: And George Spahn is the elderly gentleman, about eighty years of age?

A: Yes.

Q: In this trailer did you have anything like a radio or TV set?

A: Sometimes a TV.

Q: Well, going back to August the 16th, 1969, did you have a TV, then?

A: I can't remember.

Q: Now, do you remember hearing anything about the Sharon Tate murders where five people got killed?

A: Yes.

Q: Going back to the time that you were first arrested, August the 16th, when was the first time that you learned about the Sharon Tate murders?

A: The first time I heard about it I was driving in a car on the way to Bakersfield -- or, San Bernardino, and I heard it on the radio.

Q: Was this one day, two days, five days, ten days before August the 16th?

A: I'm not sure.

Q: All right, now, do you remember a man by the name of Danny DeCarlo being out at the ranch, this Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: Was there any incident that occurred sometime before August the 16th with relation to Danny DeCarlo?

A: August the 16th is the day we were arrested?

Q: Yes, by the Sheriff's Office.

A: No.

Q: Were you there on August the 15th at the Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes, early in the morning.

Q: And where did you go after that?

A: To the beach.

Q: And did you ever hear any motorcycles come up there or cause any row or disturbance?

A: No.

Q: Now, then, you said that you heard about the Sharon Tate murders while you were in a car driving towards San Bernardino.

Who were you with in the car?

A: John Schwartz.

Q: Was he one of the fellows that was arrested at the ranch with you on the 16th?

A: Yes, I believe he was arrested for something other than us.

Q: And what were you going out to San Bernardino for?

A: To pick up a ranch truck.

Q: Did you come back the same day?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, when you came back to the ranch and you say you can't tell us whether it was one day before the 16th or ten days before the 16th; is that right, that you were driving out to San Bernardino, but it was before August the 16th; is that right?

A: Yes, I believe it was.

Q: Well, consider that after being arrested on August the 16th you were kept in custody about two or three days?

A: Yes.

Q: And after coming out of custody you stayed at the ranch for about two or three days?

A: Yes.

Q: And then you went where, up to Inyo County?

A: No.

Q: Where did you go after that?

A: To the beach.

Q: To the beach. Did you stay at the beach for a while?

A: Yes.

Q: And then you went up to Inyo County?

A: No, I stayed at the ranch.

Q: At Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: How did you eventually get up to Inyo County?

A: I went to Death Valley on the 27th of September, I believe was the date.

Q: And how did you get up there?

A: I hitchhiked.

Q: Now, going back, again, to the time that you first heard about the Sharon Tate murders you say you were in a car going to San Bernardino to pick up a truck for the ranch and when you came back to the ranch did anybody talk about five people getting killed at the ranch?

A: Yes, I believe they did.

Q: Who talked about it?

A: Everybody, it was on the news and everybody was talking about it.

Q: What were they saying about it and who was saying it that was doing the talking?

A: I believe it was George.

Q: George is who?

A: He owns the ranch, he is the elderly man.

Q: And was Mr. Manson there living at the ranch at that time? Do you know who I mean?

A: Yes, I believe he was.

Q: You know who I mean by Mr. Manson?

A: Yes.

Q: And was Susan Atkins living at the ranch at that time?

A: Yes.

Q: And was Linda Kasabian living at the ranch at this time?

A: I'm not sure about her.

Q: What about Tex or Chuck as you call him?

A: Yes, I believe he was living there.

Q: And what about Miss Sankston, or Lovella, as you call her?

A: Yes, she was out there.

Q: Do you remember any of those people talking about the Tate case in any particular?

A: Miss Atkins talked about it. She was watching it on the television.

Q: Do you remember what she said about it?

A: She just said five people were murdered, stabbed, and that somebody wrote pig on the door.

Q: And did she say anything else that you can remember?

A: She said they were trying to -- they were trying to think of a reason why it had been done on the TV.

Q: On the TV they were trying to think of a reason?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you ever see anybody dressed in black there at the Spahn Ranch?

A: No.

Q: Did you girls ever go out like on night raids or anything, while you were out there at the ranch? Did you see any of the girls go out on food raids to get food and things of that nature?

A: No, not at nighttime.

Q: When would they go out?

A: In the daytime, sometimes, down to the produce stand and behind some markets.

Q: Now, what is your birth date?

A: The 1st of January.

Q: So, August the 8th of 1969, would that mean anything to you at all if I asked you where you were on August the 8th, 1969?

A: No.

Q: What about August the 9th, 1969?

A: No.

Q: August the 10th, 1969?

A: Well, around that time, I don't remember exact dates, but around that time I was staying at Spahn Ranch.

Q: And did you see these individuals like Tex and Charles Manson and Clem and these girls around there at that time?

A: Yeah, they were in and out of the ranch all the time.

Q: Were they all together, generally, or were they off in different groups, or what?

A: They were off in different groups.

Q: Do you remember which groups got together the most?

A: Lovella and Katie were together quite a bit.

Q: By "Lovella," that is --

A: Leslie.

Q: Leslie Sankston?

A: Yes.

Q: And Katie, that is the girl in the photograph which we have shown to you which is Grand Jury Exhibit No. 3?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, did the girls ever carry knives that you saw, this Katie and Leslie Sankston?

A: When we were in the desert most of us had small knives for cutting cans open and cutting bushes, and things like that.

Q: And what about leather ties or leather pieces somewhat like Exhibit No. 56 or 57 here?

A: No, I never saw the girls with those.

Q: Did you see any fellows with thongs like that?

A: Yes, occasionally they'd wear them around their head.

Q: Do you remember who it was particularly that wore them?

A: Yes, Tex.

Q: That is Mr. Watson?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, did you ever see any guns there at the ranch, particularly pistols?

A: No, I never saw any pistols, just some rifles.

Q: Do you know the difference between a revolver and an automatic?

A: Is an automatic a rifle?

Q: Well, I just wanted to know without telling you what it is whether or not you know the difference between the two.

A: No.

Q: I show you a picture of a gun, Exhibit No. 38.

Can you tell me whether this is a pistol or revolver or a rifle or an automatic?

A: I think it is a pistol.

Q: Did you ever see any guns like that out at the ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: Who would be holding a gun like that?

A: Stunt riders.

Q: By "stunt riders," what do you mean, people that come out to shoot movies?

A: Yes.

Q: When was that?

A: We would see these people out there in the summertime every couple of weeks.

Q: Now, did you ever hear Mr. Manson tell anybody to do anything that was wrong or to do anything that just -- you wouldn't consider to be completely right?

A: No.

Q: And did you ever see where Mr. Manson would stay at night?

A: Yes.

Q: Where would he stay?

A: Wherever he decided to stay that night.

Q: You don't remember him staying any night with you; do you?

A: No.

Q: Especially going from the 1st of August to the 16th of August, which was the date that you were arrested, did Mr. Manson spend any particular night with you?

A: No.

Q: How old are you?

A: Eighteen.

Q: And do you know a boy by the name of Kim?

A: Yes.

Q: And what is his last name?

A: Luster.

Q: Kim Luster was kind of living there at the ranch in August of 1969?

A: No.

Q: Were you originally from Los Angeles here?

A: Yes.

Q: And were you familiar with the Spahn area before you went out there?

A: No.

Q: How did you first get out there?

A: I was living in Topanga, which is up the Coast Highway, and I moved there on a black school bus onto the back property of the Spahn Ranch where there is a small ranchhouse.

Q: Were you just doing that to get away from home, so to speak?

A: No, I was already away from home.

Q: And this was about a year and a half ago?

A: Yes.

Q: And did anyone mistreat you out at the ranch there?

A: No.

Q: And when you are through testifying here you expect to be taken back up to Inyo County and handle whatever charges are against you up there?

A: Yes.

MR. STOVITZ: I have no further questions for this witness.

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You went up to Barker Ranch with the group; didn't you?

A: No.

Q: You were never at Barker --

A: Oh, yes, I was up there but I didn't go up there with them.

Q: You were up with the Manson Family; right?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: Did you read much on the ranch?

A: No.

Q: There were quite a few movie magazines on the ranch; weren't there?

A: There was a whole drawer of them.

Q: Do you know who got those movie magazines?

I remind you, again, Nancy, that you are under oath.

You know what that means?

A: Yes.

Q: Who got those movie magazines?

A: I don't know.

Q: Did you ever see anyone read those movie magazines?

A: The first time they were taken out of the drawer was when we were arrested and they were out on the front porch and we were looking at some of the pictures in them.

Q: You mean at the time you were arrested you were looking at the pictures?

A: Yes, they kept us there all afternoon. There was nothing to do, so we looked at the magazines.

Q: That is the first time you ever looked at the magazines?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you know how they got in the drawer?

A: No.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.

MR. STOVITZ: Thank you very much.

THE FOREMAN: You are admonished not to discuss or impart at any time outside of this Jury Room the questions that have been asked of you in regard to this matter, or your answers, until authorized by this Grand Jury or the Court to discuss or impart such matters.

You will understand that a violation of these instructions on your part may be the basis for a charge against you of contempt of court.

This admonition, of course, does not preclude you from discussing your legal rights with any legally-employed attorney, should you feel that your own personal rights are in any way in jeopardy.

Any other questions?

Q BY MR. STOVITZ: Did you understand what Bishop said?

A: Yes.

MR. STOVITZ: Thank you very much.

THE FOREMAN: You may be excused.

MR. STOVITZ: Rachel Morse.

THE SERGEANT AT ARMS: Rachel Morse.

THE FOREMAN: Will you state your name; please.

THE WITNESS: Rachel Morse.

THE FOREMAN: Will you raise your right hand and take the following oath:

You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give in the matter now pending before the Grand Jury of the County of Los Angeles shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

THE WITNESS: I do.

THE FOREMAN: Will you please be seated.

Q: Is it Miss or Mrs.?

A: Mrs.

Q: Do you have an attorney, Mrs. Morse?

A: Yes.

Q: What is his name?

A: I don't know.

Q: Did he come to visit you in the Los Angeles County Jail?

A: Yes.

Q: Could you describe him for us so that we might try to guess who he is?

A: He is fat.

Q: Big and fat?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: Is he also the same attorney that talked to Gipsy?

A: Yes.

Q: What is Gipsy's real name?

A: I don't know, really. I just know her as Gipsy.

Q: Was she booked over there as Manon Minette, M-a-n-o-n M-i-n-e-t-t-e, something like that?

A: Yes.

Q: And you understand that this Grand Jury is investigating the Sharon Tate and LaBianca murders; do you understand that?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: We are not going to ask you any questions concerning your arrest either up in Inyo County or on August the 16th, 1969; do you understand that?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: Now, Rachel, are you willing to answer these questions truthfully about what you know about the Sharon Tate and LaBianca murders?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, that is supposed to have happened on August the 8th or August the 9th and August the 10th, 1969; do you understand that?

A: Yes.

Q: Where were you living at that time?

A: At Spahn's Ranch.

Q: And were you living there continuously up until August the 16th, 1969, which was the date that you were arrested at the Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you go out to any place in Bel Air or in Los Feliz with this fellow here in this photograph and see anybody killed?

A: No.

Q: So, then, anything that you may have heard about the Tate murders and LaBianca murders came over the radio or from somebody else; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you know what this man's name is in this picture?

A: Tex.

Q: And was he arrested with you on August the 16th, 1969?

A: No.

Q: Now, I show you Exhibit 15.

Do you know the boy that is shown in that picture?

A: Yes.

Q: What is his name?

A: Clem.

Q: Was he arrested with you on August the 16th, 1969?

A: I don't remember.

Q: I show you on the bottom of this picture there is a name Grant Mollan, M-o-l-l-a-n, but it doesn't show the date that picture was taken.

All right, we will go to the next picture.

This girl here, do you know what this girl's name is on Grand Jury Exhibit No. 16?

A: Leslie.

Q: Is that Leslie Sankston?

A: That is how I know her.

Q: And was she arrested with you on August the 16th, 1969?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember what name she used then?

A: No.

Q: Was she also brought from Inyo County with you when you were all brought down to testify before the Grand Jury?

A: Yes.

Q: And do you know whether or not Leslie Sankston was living at the ranch between August the 8th and August the 16th, 1969?

A: Yes.

Q: What name was she using out there at the ranch?

A: Leslie.

Q: Do you know whether or not she had a particular place that she would stay or live, or anything like that?

A: No.

Q: Would she sleep one night at this place and one night at that place out at the ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember what place the girls slept every night at the ranch?

A: No.

Q: Well, the fellows would -- how many fellows were there at the ranch there back in August of 1969, approximately?

A: About ten or fifteen.

Q: Of these ten or fifteen, Charlie Manson was one of them?

A: Yes.

Q: And Tex was one of them?

A: Yes.

Q: And Clem was one of them?

A: Yes.

Q: Was Danny DeCarlo one of them?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember any of the other boys that were out there?

A: The ranch hands.

Q: The ranch hands, and do you remember any other boys that were out there?

A: A bunch of them came in and out.

Q: Do you remember an incident that happened when Danny DeCarlo's friends came up to get him one night?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: Were you there at that time?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: By "Uh-huh," if you could just say yes.

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember when that was with relation to the day that the Sheriffs came out there on August the 16th and arrested everybody?

A: Yes.

Q: When was it?

A: It was -- they came at night and the Sheriffs came right after they had all left in the morning.

Q: Now, if we go by the date that the Sheriffs came on August the 16th, the morning of August the 16th, these motorcycle boys came on August the 15th, which would be the night before; is that right?

A: Yeah, all night.

Q: All right, now, were you staying with one of the fellows there, say, five or six days before that or were you just staying with the girls there?

In other words, the place that you were sleeping at was this with one of the fellows or were you just staying with one of the girls, or what were you doing up at the ranch?

A: Everything.

Q: Where would the place be that you would be sleeping the night before the 15th, let's say?

A: In the little shack. There is a shack.

Q: Is this a little shack behind the house?

A: It's kind of on the side of it.

Q: And is this the place that Charlie Manson lived?

A: No.

Q: Where was Charlie Manson staying?

A: All over.

Q: I'm speaking about the week before the ranch got raided.

A: I don't remember where he slept.

Q: When is your birthday?

A: January 6, 1951.

Q: So if I would ask you where you were on August the 8th, 1969, could you tell me right now where you were?

A: Huh-uh.

Q: Could you tell me where you were living on August the 8th, 1969?

A: No, I don't remember.

Q: Would you say it is a pretty good bet that you didn't sleep with Charlie Manson that night?

A: I couldn't say that, either.

Q: What about August the 9th, 1969, could you tell us whether you stayed with Charlie Manson that night?

A: I couldn't tell you. I could tell you if I remembered but I don't remember.

Q: You don't remember one way or the other?

A: No.

Q: What about August the 10th, 1969?

A: See, I didn't pay attention to the dates all the time at the ranch.

Q: Now, you did hear about the Sharon Tate murders some way; did you?

A: Over the radio.

Q: Do you remember whether it was the same day that it happened that you heard about it on the radio, was it a day or two after it happened, or was it a week after it happened?

Can you tell us when it was that you heard it on the radio?

A: No, I was listening to TV and it came on.

Q: Where was the TV set?

A: In the trailer.

Q: Who else was looking at the TV set with you at that time?

A: I was just alone because I was taking care of the baby.

Q: Would you take care of all the babies, like Danny DeCarlo's and Susan Atkins' baby, and all of the babies?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: Would you answer yes.

A: Yes.

Q: Now, when you heard about the Sharon Tate case, when you heard it on the television, did it seem like it had just happened or did it seem like it happened --

A: It seemed like it just happened because everybody was in a frenzy, excited on the TV.

Q: Now, did you then hear about two other people getting killed a day or two later?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: By "Uh-huh," do you mean yes?

A: Yes.

Q: And did you ever see any of the people at the ranch like, let's say, Susan Atkins and Charlie Watson, Tex, leave the ranch late at night?

A: A couple of times.

Q: Do you remember whether it was about the time you heard about the Sharon Tate murders on television that you saw them leave the ranch?

A: No.

Q: Would they leave the ranch, say, a couple of times or just every once in a while?

A: Oh, almost every night people went out.

Q: Do you remember what kind of a car they would use when they went out?

A: Whatever car was available.

Q: Do you remember how they were dressed when they went out?

A: No.

Q: Do you ever remember any of them going out dressed in black?

A: Yeah.

Q: Do you remember when that was with relation to you hearing about the Sharon Tate murders? Was it a day before, was it a week before, was it a month before?

A: What?

Q: When you saw these people dressed in black.

A: We usually wore black.

Q: You usually wore black?

A: Yes.

Q: Would you usually wear boots or go barefooted or what?

A: I always went barefooted. Whatever people could find in the way of shoes they wore.

Q: Do you remember an incident when seven people went out late at night, say, about 8:00, 9:00 o'clock at night and they all went out in a '59 Ford automobile?

Do you remember such a thing happening?

A: Yeah, various times.

Q: And do you remember what happened?

Were you up when they came back?

A: No.

Q: Did they ever discuss with you what they would do when they went out at night?

A: No.

Q: Did you ever hear anything said around the ranch about anybody at the ranch being involved with the Tate or LaBianca murders?

A: No.

Q: Did you ever hear anything at the ranch about "five pigs getting killed last night"?

A: I heard something. I heard a lot about pigs.

Q: What did you hear about them?

A: Just pigs.

Q: How would the people at the ranch use the term pigs?

Would they use it according to pigs were police officers, or pigs were people, or pigs were pigs, that means hogs?

A: Mostly police officers.

Q: Mostly police officers.

And did you ever see any guns carried by anybody at the ranch there?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: What kind of guns would you say?

A: Danny had a .45.

Q: And "Danny" is Danny DeCarlo; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: A .45, is that a rifle or an automatic?

A: Automatic pistol.

Q: Any other kind of guns that you would see out there?

A: Yes, I saw a lot of guns.

Q: Can you think of any ones by any particular descriptions?

A: There is a big -- the kind that the police have.

Q: Shotguns?

A: Yeah, it was called a riot gun.

Q: I show you a picture, Exhibit 38, here.

Did you ever see a gun that looked like this out at the ranch?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: By "Uh-huh," you mean yes?

A: Yes.

Q: And who did you see have a gun like that?

A: I think Shorty did and another ranch hand.

Q: By "Shorty," is Shorty's last name Shea,(sic)?

A: I don't know.

Q: Do you remember how long it was that you saw Shorty before you were arrested August 16th? Was this a month before August the 16th, a week before?

How long was it that you had seen Shorty?

In other words, how many weeks before August the 16th was it that you saw Shorty?

A: Is August the 16th the day we got arrested?

Q: Yes.

A: Oh, I saw him after the arrest. I think I saw him after the arrest.

Q: How many weeks after the arrest did you last see him?

A: I left for the desert about a week after the arrest.

Q: Did you ever see Shorty after that?

A: No.

Q: Do you know where Shorty is now?

A: Yeah.

Q: Where is he?

A: He is dead.

Q: How do you know he is dead?

A: Because the detective told me.

Q: But you don't know that from your own knowledge; is that right?

A: No.

Q: And you didn't see anybody kill him?

A: No.

Q: You never went to his funeral?

A: No.

Q: Is there anything else that you can remember happening out at the ranch other than getting arrested on August 16th, or the motorcyclists coming out there trying to get Danny back to them on August the 15th?

Can you remember anything else happening at the ranch out there that you want to tell us about?

A: No.

Q: How did Charlie Manson treat you girls?

A: Just girls.

Q: Did he tell you what to do, generally, or did you do whatever you wanted to?

A: Everybody did what they wanted to do.

Q: Suppose you wanted to get up and leave the ranch, could you have done that?

A: Yes.

Q: Nobody kept you there against your will?

A: Huh-uh.

Q: By --

A: No.

Q: And what about Charlie Manson, did he have one particular girl that he liked more than the others?

A: No.

Q: Did he ever stay with two or three girls that he liked more than all the others?

A: No.

Q: Did he like you as much as he liked the others?

A: Yeah.

Q: Would you say he liked everybody equally as far as the girls were concerned?

A: Yes.

Q: All right, what about Tex Watson there, did he have a girl that he liked more than the others?

A: No.

Q: What about Clem, did he like any girl particularly more than any others?

A: No.

Q: This fellow here, No. 4, Exhibit 4, is the one I referred to as Tex Watson.

Do you know where he was on August the 8th or August the 9th, 1969?

A: No.

Q: Do you know where Charlie Manson was on August the 8th, or August the 9th, or August the 10th?

A: They were at the ranch.

Q: You don't remember now that you are thinking back of actually seeing them those dates; do you?

A: No.

Q: Was there a time that any of them would go away from the ranch and then come back after a while?

A: Yes.

Q: And, in other words, people would come and go as they wanted to?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you ever work in an office where there was a time clock that you had to punch in and punch out?

A: No.

Q: You didn't have a time clock over there where everybody punched in and punched out?

A: No.

Q: Did you ever see any of the girls carry knives?

A: In the desert.

Q: What kind of knives were they?

A: They were about this long.

Q: You are indicating about twelve inches; is that right?

A: Not the blade, the handle and the blade.

Q: The knife was about twelve inches and the blade would be about half that long?

A: Yes.

Q: There is a ruler right in front of you.

Do you want to measure again? You are satisfied with your estimate about the length of the knife?

Put your fingers up, again.

A: That is where the handle would be and the blade would be about to this.

Q: You are indicating the handle would be about three inches and the blade would be up to about here -- show me.

A: About seven.

Q: So the handle would be about three inches and the blade would run up to --

A: I'd say eight.

Q: About five inches.

Was this a folding knife?

A: No

Q: Was this a knife that you put in the side of your belt like Tarzan would wear?

Do you know who Tarzan is? Have you seen him on television?

A: Yes.

Q: A fellow swinging through the trees. Is that the kind of knife it would be?

A: It would hang on your belt or wherever you wanted to keep it.

Q: Was it a little knife that you put in your pocket?

A: There were some little knives.

Q: Now, did any of the girls, particularly Leslie Sankston, ever tell you anything that happened unusual that one night that she went out that something unusual happened?

A: No.

Q: What about Katie, did she ever tell you anything unusual that happened one night?

A: No.

Q: What about Sadie Glutz, did she ever tell you anything that happened unusual one night?

A: No

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: When you go back do you understand you are going to be in the same jail with Charlie Manson?

A: If I go back.

Q: I remind you, again, Rachel, you are under oath; do you understand that?

A: Yes.

Q: And that means if you testify falsely under oath that is perjury; do you understand that?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you understand that perjury is a crime?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you understand it is a felony?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you tell Charlie before you came down here to Los Angeles that they were bringing you down here?

A: No.

Q: Did you see Charlie the day you came down here?

A: Yeah, I went to court that day.

Q: Did you talk to Charlie?

A: Uh-huh, yes.

Q: And you told him that you and several other girls were being brought down to Los Angeles?

A: We didn't know, they just stuck us in the booking room and told us to put our hands behind our backs.

Q: You didn't see Charlie afterwards?

A: Not after court.

Q: Are you sure about that?

A: Yes.

Q: You spoke to Charlie frequently when you were in custody up there at the jail; didn't you?

A: Whenever we go to court.

Q: Did Charlie ever tell you never to tell anyone anything about what he did?

A: No.

Q: You're sure about that?

A: Uh-huh, yes.

Q: Charlie used to have a large glass jug at Spahn Ranch; is that correct?

A: Yes, there were a couple of big Sparkletts bottles. They weren't Charlie's.

Q: Didn't Charlie have one in particular?

A: No.

Q: That he had helter-skelter put on that?

A: We had that when we had the nightclub.

Q: The nightclub?

A: Yes.

Q: What is the nightclub?

A: We opened up the saloon as a nightclub.

Q: That is right on the Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Charlie put helter-skelter on the jug?

A: I did.

Q: Did Charlie tell you to put helter-skelter on the jug?

A: No.

Q: Why did you put helter-skelter on the jug?

A: Because I listened to the Beatles and they told me to paint the jug so I just put it on there.

Q: Charlie told you to paint the jug?

A: Yes. I don't know if he told me directly, it was just getting everything ready and the jug had to be painted.

Q: How long before August the 16th was it that you painted this jug?

A: I don't remember when the nightclub was opened but it was right before it opened up, but I don't remember.

Q: Do you recall that you were arrested -- Rachel, you recall that you were arrested on August the 16th; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: How long before August the 16th did you open up that nightclub?

A: It was a long time before that.

Q: A couple of weeks?

A: Oh, no.

Q: A couple of months?

A: About three, four months, I'd say, I'm not sure, but it seemed like a long time.

Q: You got this word helter-skelter from a Beatles album?

A: Yes.

Q: Charlie liked that Beatle album quite a bit; right?

A: We all did.

Q: Charlie Manson did; right?

A: Yes.

Q: Tex liked that Beatles album quite a bit, too; right?

A: Yes.

Q: There was a song on that Beatles album called Blackbird; wasn't there?

A: Yes.

Q: Was the word rise or arise in that song called blackbird?

A: Yes.

Q: Was it rise or arise?

A: I don't think it was rise, I think it was fly. I can't remember, I was just singing it to myself, blackbirds fly --

Q: Helter-skelter was in the album?

A: Right.

Q: It was the name of a song in the album?

A: Yes.

Q: Charlie Manson and Tex played this album all the time; is that correct?

A: No, we listened to it for about a week straight and we never played it at the nightclub.

Q: So when it first came out the Manson group played that record, that album, all the time; is that correct?

A: Uh-huh, yes.

Q: How did you get your groceries at the Barker Ranch?

A: People brought them.

Q: Did any of your Family ever leave Barker Ranch and go into Independence and one of the other towns to pick up some groceries?

A: Only when we were traveling, like when we traveled from different places we'd go through towns.

Q: Well, you were living at the Barker Ranch for a couple of months; weren't you?

A: Yes, but not right there.

Q: Where were you living?

A: We lived outside. We just wandered all over the desert.

Q: But frequently one or more of you would go somewhere and buy some groceries; is that correct?

A: I don't think anybody ever left to buy groceries. I think more people came and brung them up.

Q: And there were quite a few magazines at Barker Ranch; were there not?

A: Yeah, there were some in a big drawer.

Q: Who bought those magazines?

A: They were there.

Q: When were they there?

A: I don't know, just the day before we got busted up there, before, I went to sleep -- went walking over into the hills to go to sleep. I didn't know they were there before and I opened the drawer for something to do and found some magazines to read so I took them up with me. That is how I saw the magazines.

Q: Did Charlie Manson sleep inside that Barker Ranch, that ranchhouse?

A: I don't know.

Q: Where did you sleep at the Barker Ranch?

A: We camped up behind Meyer's Ranch and slept with the baby.

Q: Did you ever sleep in the bus?

A: When we first went there.

Q: You don't know where Charlie Manson slept at the Barker Ranch?

A: Not all the time. Sometimes he would make a campsite and sleep there with the others.

Q: Did he ever sleep in the ranchhouse?

A: I don't remember. I don't remember him sleeping in the ranchhouse.

Q: Did you ever see Charlie Manson reading any of those magazines?

A: No, he doesn't read.

Q: What about Tex?

A: No.

Q: Why did you leave the Spahn Ranch for Barker Ranch; Rachel?

A: Because the police were bothering us.

Q: You mean at Spahn Ranch?

A: Yeah, we always wanted to go to the desert anyway.

Q: Who decided to go up to Barker Ranch?

A: We all did.

Q: Was Charlie the main one who decided to go up there?

A: No.

Q: Who was?

A: Nobody was the main one.

Q: You mean you all got together at the same time and agreed to go up there?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Tex drive the bus up first?

A: The bus came up a couple of years ago, or a year ago.

Q: Didn't Tex ride the bus up there in the summer of 1969?

A: I don't know who drove it.

Q: At the Barker Ranch Charlie and the rest of you continued to talk about the Tate case, I imagine?

A: I never heard.

Q: You never heard anyone talk about the Tate case?

A: No.

Q: But they talked about the Tate case quite a bit at Spahn Ranch?

A: I never heard it there, either.

I heard it when we were watching the TV and it was on the first couple of days but I never heard anything.

Q: But everyone at the ranch was talking about it; right?

A: Yes.

Q: What were they saying about it?

A: Nothing, they were just -- news that was on, a whole bunch of people got killed.

Q: Did Charlie talk about the Tate murders at all?

A: I didn't ever personally hear him talk about it.

Q: What about Tex?

A: Not ever personally about it.

Q: How about Sadie Mae Glutz?

A: Yes, she talked about it when it happened on TV one day.

Q: Are you one of Charlie's girls?

A: I'm one of the Family, I guess.

Q: You belong to Charlie; right?

A: No.

Q: You will do whatever he tells you to do; right?

A: Well, it depends.

Q: If Charlie told you to go out and steal something you'd do it for him; wouldn't you?

A: It depends on what it was.

Q: If he told you to go out and steal groceries you'd do it for him; wouldn't you?

A: Yeah.

Q: Have you had sexual intercourse with Charlie?

A: Uh-huh, yes.

Q: You are in love with Charlie; right?

A: No.

Q: Are you in love with Tex?

A: No.

MR. STOVITZ: We have no further questions from this witness.

THE FOREMAN: Does any member of the Jury have a question they would like to ask the witness?

Q BY MR. STOVITZ: Do you have any idea what the words helter-skelter mean?

A: It means in a frenzy, I think.

Q: In a frenzy?

A: I think so.

Q: All mixed up; is that right?

A: Yes.

THE FOREMAN: You are admonished not to discuss or impart at any time outside of this Jury Room the questions that have been asked of you in regard to this matter, or your answers, until authorized by this Grand Jury or the Court to discuss or impart such matters.

You may be excused.

MR. STOVITZ: She may discuss it with legal counsel.

THE FOREMAN: You may discuss this with your legal counsel but no one else.

MR. STOVITZ: Diana Bluestien.

THE SERGEANT AT ARMS: Diana Bluestien.

THE FOREMAN: Will you state your full name; please.

THE WITNESS: Dianne Elizabeth Lake.

THE FOREMAN: Will you raise your right hand and take the following oath:

You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give in this matter now pending before the Grand Jury of the County of Los Angeles shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

THE WITNESS: I do.

THE FOREMAN: Will you please be seated.

MR. STOVITZ: Dianne, no one is going to hurt you, just be seated. It will just be a few minutes.

Q: Your first name is Dianne, D-i-a-n-e; is that right?

A: No.

Q: How do you spell that?

A: D-i-a-n-n-e.

Q: D-i-a-n-n-e. And your middle name is Elizabeth, E-l-i-z-a-b-e-t-h?

A: Yes.

Q: And the last name, I didn't get that last name.

A: Lake.

Q: L-a-k-e?

A: Yes.

Q: And what is the date of your birth date?

A: February 28, 1953.

Q: So, you are under sixteen; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: But you want to be considered as being over eighteen; is that right, Dianne?

A: No.

Q: You always give your birthday as February 28, 1968 (sic); don't you?

A: Uh-huh, yes.

Q: Now, on August the 16th, 1969, were you living at the Spahn Ranch?

A: No.

Q: So then you weren't arrested on that date by the Sheriff's Office; is that right?

A: No.

Q: By "No," that means yes, you were not arrested; is that correct?

A: I was somewhere else.

Q: On May the 2nd, 1968, you and Charles Manson and a couple of other people were arrested on the Summit Trail in Malibu for some charges about marijuana is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: We are not going to ask you any questions about that arrest but just so the Jury knows, that case was dismissed against you; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: And there are no charges pending against you for that case?

A: No.

Q: Now, after August the 16th you were arrested in Inyo County, that is, Death Valley, by the Sheriff's Office up there; is that right?

A: What date?

Q: August the 16th, 1969.

A: Yes.

Q: And you are now in custody because of that arrest; isn't that right?

A: Yes.

Q: We are not going to ask you any questions concerning that arrest before this Grand Jury, now.

Do you remember where it was that you last lived at the Spahn Ranch?

A: I don't remember.

Q: Now, do you remember ever hearing about the Sharon Tate murders when five people got killed?

A: No.

Q: Did you hear about it on the radio or the TV or in the newspaper?

A: No.

Q: You never heard about it at all?

A: (Witness shakes head.)

Q: When was the very first time that you heard about it?

A: In the police station.

Q: And that was the police station where?

A: In Inyo County.

Q: Now, after you heard about it up there in the police station in Inyo County did it bring back to your mind that you heard about it sometime before?

A: No.

Q: Were you living in Los Angeles County in August of 1969?

A: No.

Q: Where were you living in August of 1969?

A: Inyo.

Q: And when had you gone up to Inyo?

A: August.

Q: Who did you go up there with?

A: Myself.

Q: Anybody else?

A: (Witness shakes head.)

Q: How did you get up there?

A: In a truck.

Q: Did you hitchhike or did you drive the truck or did somebody else drive?

A: Somebody else drove.

Q: Do you know who that other person is?

A: No.

Q: Was it Tex?

A: No.

Q: Was it somebody else?

A: It had to be.

Q: Do you remember that person's name?

A: No.

Q: Did you ever see that person again after you got up to Inyo?

A: Yes.

Q: Where is he now?

A: I don't know.

Q: When was the last time that you saw him?

A: The night we were arrested.

Q: In Inyo?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: Now, if we were to ask you your whereabouts on August the 8th, 1969, could you tell us? That is the first week in August.

A: Yes.

Q: Where were you?

A: Inyo County.

Q: August the 9th, 1969?

A: Yes.

Q: August the 10th, 1969?

A: Yes.

Q: Up in Inyo County?

A: I think so.

Q: Do you know a girl by the name of Marie Brunner?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you know whether or not she went up to Inyo County with you?

A: No.

Q: Was she still here in Los Angeles when you left to go up to Inyo County?

A: I don't know.

Q: Do you know where she was at the time you went up to Inyo County?

A: She could have been one of six or seven places.

Q: But you do not know where she was?

A: No.

MR. STOVITZ: I have no further questions of this witness.

THE FOREMAN: Any members of the Jury have a question they would like to ask the witness?

You are admonished --

Q By MR. BUGLIOSI: Did Charlie have a big glass jug out at Spahn Ranch?

A: a what?

Q: a big glass jug?

A: (Witness shrugs shoulders.)

Q: You don't know?

A: No.

Q: Did you ever see a big glass jug out there with helter-skelter written on it?

A: (Witness shakes head.)

Q: You're sure?

You have to answer out loud.

A: No.

Q: You never saw helter-skelter on a jug?

THE FOREMAN: State yes or no.

THE WITNESS: No.

Q By MR. BUGLIOSI: Did you ever see magazines inside a drawer at the ranch, out at Barker Ranch?

A: Of what?

Q: Did you ever see any magazines inside of a drawer in the house there at Barker Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: You did?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did Charlie buy those magazines?

A: No.

Q: Did Tex buy them?

A: No.

Q: Who bought them?

A: They were there.

Q: When were they there?

A: When I was arrested before -- the night before. There were drawers all over that place with magazines.

Q: Who bought those magazines?

A: I don't know, Mrs. Barker, I imagine.

Q: Did you ever see anyone read those magazines?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did Charlie read them?

A: No.

Q: Did Tex read them?

A: No.

Q: Did Susan read them?

A: No.

Q: Were these movie magazines?

A: Some of them.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.

MR. STOVITZ: That is all.

May this witness be excused?

THE FOREMAN: You are admonished not to discuss or impart at any time outside of this Jury Room the questions that have been asked of you in regard to this matter, or your answers, until authorized by this Grand Jury or the Court to discuss or impart such matters.

If you have an attorney you can discuss it with him.

You may be excused.

MR. STOVITZ: That concludes the presentation of evidence, ladies and gentlemen.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I will make a motion that the exhibits that have been referred to now be received as they are numbered.

THE FOREMAN: They may be all received into evidence as to number.