TRANSCRIPT OF TAPE #32570

A RECORDED INTERVIEW OF RONNI HOWARD

AT SYBIL BRAND INSTITUTE ON NOVEMBER 25, 1969.

QUESTIONING BY:

SERGEANT M. J. MC GANN, 10329

SERGEANT F. J. PATCHETT, 7872

ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION

TAPE TRANSCRIBED BY:

STEPHEN P. TAYLOR,

ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION

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SERGEANT PATCHETT: Hi Ronnie, how are you?

SERGEANT McGANN: How are you doing?

MS. HOWARD: I forgot my cigarettes could I have one of yours?

SERGEANT McGANN: I don't smoke, but he does.

MS. HOWARD: They sent somebody up to talk to me from Homicide.

SERGEANT McGANN: They did what?

MS. HOWARD: They sent someone up to talk to me from Homicide. They said the ones that were handling the case.

SERGEANT McGANN: We're handing the case. We were here the other night. Remember us talking to you the other night, we're the two.

MS. HOWARD: I'm sorry.

SERGEANT McGANN: Back again, to talk to you a little more. We would like to go over actually what you told us the other night again. Also before we start out we have a deal made so we can get you out when you go up for your probation hearing, your parole board.

MS. HOWARD: I won't --

SERGEANT McGANN: December the tenth isn't it?

MS. HOWARD: I don't know between the fifth and the eighth. It won't happen until my case is --

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay. It will all be squared away.

MS. HOWARD: Excuse me may I say one thing? I don't understand, you said like, I am out of the working dorm where I was in. To me it seems like you ought to forget about something like this because this is something out of the ordinary. Because there are other things that I can find out that might be very important.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you see, we have to work within the scope of the law. It only allows us to do certain things, Ronni.

MS. HOWARD: See, I shouldn't have said anything until I got --

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, we're glad you did because along the with the other stuff that was coming around it put us onto the right track.

MS. HOWARD: But you mean to say, that you mean that, gee you couldn't forget your code of ethics on something like this. Because this is something out of the ordinary, really.

SERGEANT McGANN: In other words, we have to take this thing to court to prosecute these people and to do so we can't put you back in there; because you will be our agent then.

MS. HOWARD: Well, I won't say nothing to anyone. Like the girls asked me how come you got out of the other dorm and I said, "Oh, they're trying to put another case on me."

SERGEANT McGANN: That's good. Incidentally we didn't talk to your parole officer. You didn't want us to, so we went to the board.

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, because the parole officer, I don't trust her. I mean, because she and I just have a personality conflict.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, we realize that, so we went to the board.

MS. HOWARD: As a matter of fact, I have been in here --

SERGEANT McGANN: I mean don't worry about it because we're not going through here we're going through your board.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: So she will know nothing about this.

MS. HOWARD: But, I want you to understand that, you know, when I first, you know, I thought about this for about a week before I even called down there because it just worried me. You know, I wasn't thinking of anything else or getting anything in return, or something. It was just like I said this is something way out of the ordinary really.

SERGEANT McGANN: As we said the other night there is a reward for this thing. It may have to be shared with two or three people but it is twenty-five thousand dollars and I am sure there is enough to go around.

MS. HOWARD: I am not interested in the money, you know.

SERGEANT McGANN: In other words, you want your freedom is what you're really interested in?

MS. HOWARD: If there is anything to benefit, you know, but I was doing this because I just felt those people shouldn't be running around loose.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: I agree and you're just fortunate in that you are the one that heard this information and decided to act on it because there are a lot of fringe benefits for you. I grant that your reason for coming forth because it is so weird but at the same time these other benefits are there and they are available to you. Like I say, we have extended them to you. What is most important is that we convict these people.

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, I know.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: So, the way to do that is with the information that you received from her. I hope you have had enough time from our last conversation to go over --

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, I made a few notes but I left them up in the locker.

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you want to get them? Would they help you?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, trying to remember everything, it would only take a minute to go and get them.

SERGEANT McGANN: Let's get them.

(Pause in the tape)

MS. HOWARD: Sorry I took so long but I told them I wanted to get my transcript. So anyway, well, I just made a few of these notes so I -- So as you were saying.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Let's go back to the beginning, you know, we talked about this the other evening. But just to make sure we all have it in line against your notes here, let's go back (indistinguishable) off and work right down the line.

SERGEANT McGANN: First of all, she approached you about six or seven times, I think you said, over a period of how long?

MS. HOWARD: Oh, let's see, how long was she in. See we slept right next to each other and then she would work all day and I would work all day and in the evening we would talk sometimes.

SERGEANT McGANN: You were in the same -- Right together there?

MS. HOWARD: Right next to each other. It is a big dorm and our beds were right next door to each other.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay. So when did you become cell-mates or dorm-mates, or whatever it would be?

MS. HOWARD: I guess it was about, for about three weeks.

SERGEANT McGANN: For about three weeks?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, about three and a half weeks.

SERGEANT McGANN: And this stopped when we were here the other night?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: And was it three and a half weeks prior to us coming to visit you?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, before that.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: So we are talking about the last week in October?

MS. HOWARD: It was before she went for her arraignment on this deal.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay. So then you started talking to Sadie Mae Glutz, Susan Atkins?

MS. HOWARD: Uh huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Now, if you will start from the beginning and tell us everything that you can remember that she told you?

MS. HOWARD: Well, she was talking about the case she was on and she said, "That they tried to say that I held this guy down and the guy is over two hundred pounds." She said, you know, I said, "Well, come on you must have know about it?" You know, she said, "Yeah, I was there but," she said the cops turned what she said around. They said that she held the guy and she said, "It wasn't that way at all." She said, "I am not big enough." I said, "Okay." So I said, "So your friend held him." She said, "Yeah." But she said, "They twisted it around." So actually she was the one that did the stabbing on this deal.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she tell you that she did the stabbing?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Or did she just simply say that, "I didn't hold him down?"

MS. HOWARD: No. She said, "I didn't hold him." She said, "How could I, because I had to get in a couple of stabs myself but there was another girl involved too." Now I am not sure but she said that was the one, Katy. But she said her co-defendant told, I think she said that he mentioned this other girls on this deal that the other girl was here. I (indistinguishable) when they had arrested about sixteen of them, or something, six weeks ago, or something or whatever, and that she was here and they let her go.

SERGEANT McGANN: This was the girl that was with her up there?

MS. HOWARD: This is on this deal that she is on now.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Let's go back to just exactly how she words this. She says, "The police got this twisted around. This guy is over two hundred pounds she couldn't have held him down." Then what does she say?

MS. HOWARD: She says he was a hippie too and I asked her, I said, "Well, why did they do it?" She said, "Well he owed them some money or something. He owed this Bobby and her some money and some other girl. I heard them talking on the telephone. I heard them trying to kill him. So they got him out for a ride. He thought he was just going out for a nice drive."

SERGEANT McGANN: How did they get in the car? Did he pick them up somewhere?

MS. HOWARD: I don't remember that.

SERGEANT McGANN: But she said that he thought he was just going out for a nice ride?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: All right.

MS. HOWARD: I am not sure but I think the guy was driving, I am not sure.

SERGEANT McGANN: Does she say Bobby, does she mention his last name?

MS. HOWARD: No. She just calls him Bobby, her co-defendant on this case.

SERGEANT McGANN: And does she mention the other girls by name? This other girl that was out there with her?

MS. HOWARD: Just the Katy. But she said that Bobby had given both her name and the other girl's name. She said the other girl was here. I am not sure if she said she is testifying against her. No, that is not the one that is testifying against her. This one was arrested when they were all arrested and they let her go.

SERGEANT McGANN: What did she say this girl did? What was her part in the murder? This is the Hinman deal now.

MS. HOWARD: I don't remember too good but this girl was just there, or if they both did some of the stabbings.

SERGEANT McGANN: Now is when she told you that stabbing people was as good as a climax or the same?

MS. HOWARD: No. That came after she told me about the Tate deal.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Okay. Let's go back to Hinman again. She made the statement, "She wasn't big enough to hold him down." Did she ever say that she stabbed him?

MS. HOWARD: She said Bobby held the guy while she stabbed him, but she said he had it coming because he owed them some money.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Bobby held the guy?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, and I know this other girl was there also. I can't remember whether she said the other girl did some stabbing or not.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Okay. She said Bobby held the guy while she stabbed him, what else did she say? Her quote if you remember it.

MS. HOWARD: I am sorry, I don't remember. She said he was very surprised, she said because he thought he was just going out for a nice ride.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she indicate how many times she stabbed him?

MS. HOWARD: I think she said it was a couple of times in the leg and the rest were in the stomach or in the body a couple of times. In the leg I remember that.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Do you remember how she said it?

MS. HOWARD: No. I was just trying to get mostly in generalizations. I wasn't thinking too much of how it was worded.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she seem enthused when she was saying this or -

MS. HOWARD: She was always enthused when she told us about gruesome things like this. Like on the Tate deal, she said that they were going to pull the people's eyeballs out and gouge them against the walls.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Well, we'll come to that one. What else does she say in this Hinman murder that she is talking about here. Do you remember what else she said?

MS. HOWARD: No. Only that this one girl, the one that is testifying against her, overheard a telephone conversation where they were planning to kill the guy.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: How did she say that? As well as you can remember? How did she word it?

MS. HOWARD: I don't remember. I mean the exact words. All I know is that this girl was listening as either her or Bobby were talking on the telephone planning on, "Well, we'll have to kill them," she said.

SERGEANT McGANN: Now who is this girl that you're talking to?

MS. HOWARD: The one that is supposed to testify in court against her.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she mention any girl's names?

MS. HOWARD: No, I don't remember. But evidently the girl is already a witness against her.

SERGEANT McGANN: This girl play any part in anything?

MS. HOWARD: No. I think she said this was the girl's first deal.

SERGEANT McGANN: Does she know anything about the later things such as the Tate or the other murder?

MS. HOWARD: I don't remember. Oh, the one that is going to testify against her?

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh huh, right. Does she knew anything other than about the Hinman thing?

MS. HOWARD: No. This one just knows about this one.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: She said now that the girls that was going to testify against her overheard a telephone conversation?

MS. HOWARD: Where her and Bobby were planning to kill this guy

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she indicate that she was talking to Bobby on the phone or Bobby was talking to her on the phone or?

MS. HOWARD: I don't remember whether she overheard Bobby talking or her talking but they were talking to one or the other. Now I don't know which one she overheard. Gary Hinman that was the same, that was the name, Gary Hinman.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Uh huh.

MS. HOWARD: She showed me her paper work after she came back from court.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: What your saying is that either she or Bobby did have a telephone conversation with someone regarding --

MS. HOWARD: Either she or Bobby were on the other end. I don't remember which one was on the other end and this girl either overheard her end of Bobby's end of the conversation.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: And the conversation was --

MS. HOWARD: Was then her and Bobby said I and Bobby.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: The conversation was between Sadie and Bobby?

MS. HOWARD: On the telephone yeah.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: And who made the statement that they were going to kill him?

MS. HOWARD: I don't remember.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Okay. Could it have been that she was with Bobby when he was making a telephone call to someone else talking about killing Hinman and that this girl overheard that conversation?

MS. HOWARD: May have been, but I think Sadie was talking to Bobby, you know, they were talking to each other on the telephone, Sadie and Bobby. So the girl evidently overheard one of them, I don't know which one.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Okay. What else does she say in regards to that murder?

MS. HOWARD: She doesn't go into this too much because she said this was done mostly because the guy had it coming because had owed them some money and --

SERGEANT PATCHETT: What murder does she talk about next?

MS. HOWARD: Then she came on about the Tate deal.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Let me interrupt you for a minute. Does she ever talk about a fella named Shorty?

MS. HOWARD: No.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever talk about murdering a negro fella?

MS. HOWARD: No. But she doesn't think too much of colored people. She thinks their, well, white people should stick together and colored people should stick together. You know, because I told you why they were doing some of this. She said she thought that it would make the colored people wake up and take notice that this is what they should do to get what they want out of the world, you know, some violence.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she talk about the murder of a sixteen year old boy, a young boy?

MS. HOWARD: No. She just told me that there were eleven murders that the police will never solve.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Okay.

MS. HOWARD: And she said that the fella's head that they cut off, that was either out in the desert; I think it was out in the desert or one of the canyons.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: What did she say about the fella that had his head cut off?

MS. HOWARD: She said that if police did ever find his body that they would never know who he was anyway.

SERGEANT McGANN: Why is that?

MS. HOWARD: Because his head was cut off.

SERGEANT McGANN: Had they done anything to make it deteriorate faster the body or anything?

MS. HOWARD: No. She just said they cut his head off.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say who cut his head off?

MS. HOWARD: No. The deal that she went into mostly was about the Tate deal.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: And what else did she say, if I can use the expression lost his head?

MS. HOWARD: She thought it was funny because like she said the police will never identify him anyway.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she say that she did it, "I cut a fella --

MS. HOWARD: No. She said "We cut his head off." She said we.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she seem kind of sad or remorseful that she said it?

MS. HOWARD: (Indistinguishable)

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Happy as a lark?

MS. HOWARD: No. She thought it was funny. That is why this girl said even if they do convict her she said that they will probably send her to a mental institution. She said, "I'll make those psychiatrists think that I am crazy." She said, "I want to make them think I am insane." I was thinking to myself she really is insane.

SERGEANT McGANN: This is what she said, she was going to try to make the psychiatrists think she was insane?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah. I told her I said, "All you have to do is talk to them normal."

SERGEANT PATCHETT: How did she react to that statement?

MS. HOWARD: She said, "Yeah I know." Because she knows her philosophy doesn't conform to the normal pattern of life.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who did she say philosophy this was she was practicing?

MS. HOWARD: This fella, Charles, Charles Manson. Isn't that a groovy name she said, Charles Manson, in other words he is a man and the son too.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, let's go into the Tate deal a little bit. Starting out with the first name she told you about Tate.

MS. HOWARD: Oh, how I got her to tell me about it was I told you we were talking about an acid trip. You know, because not too many of the girls take acid in there and I guess I (Indistinguishable) she could talk to. Anyway she said that Charlie had been talking to her and he was trying to think of something. She said, "I have done just about everything there is to be done, I don't know what there is left for me to do that I haven't done before." In other words, nothing moves her anymore and nothing shocks her so Charlie asked her one time, he said, "Would it shock you if I slit Katy's throat?" Katy is another friend of theirs and she said, she thought for a minute, she said, "No, I don't guess so." After that she went on to tell me, the fact is, she said, "You remember this Tate deal?" And I said, "Yeah." I said, because I was going to rent the house one time, you know. She said, "Well they'll never find out who did these murders." She said, then she went on and I said, "Come on, you know." I said, "I don't believe you did it and you're just talking big, you know. Anyone can say they did it." And she said, "Oh, no." And she went on to tell me that there were four of them that went into the house and this one fella was supposed to wait in the car. Now, whether or not he came in later or not I am not sure, you know, it was supposed to have been her two girls, this Charlie and the fella that was supposed to have been waiting in the car. She said they parked the car on the street and they walked up to the house. She said they picked the house because it was secluded and out of the way. She said first they cut the wires, supposed to be the telephone wires but I don't remember who. She said they may have cut the wrong wire. They cut the utility wires by mistake or something, but Charlie was supposed to have known what wires to cut because he knows how to finagle with telephones and things like that. In other words, he knows how to cut telephone wires. And so I am not sure, I think, it was through the kitchen. She said the door was unlocked and they went in the house. Oh, before that the young fella was leaving in the car, the one that spotted them and asked them, "Hey, what are you doing here?" and Charlie shot him. I forget she said two, three, or four times, but I know that it was more than once. But she said the stereo was going so the people in the house didn't even hear when the fella outside was shot. And they went into the house. The door was unlocked and there was, let's see, she said, the girls all had knives. I don't know what kind of knives but I assume they must have been pocket knives they were carrying with them because later on she told me that she had thought she lost her knife there at the Tate place and was afraid to go back and look for it. So that is why I assumed her's must have been a pocket knife, because she sounded like it was her own personal thing. She said that all the girls had knives and Charlie had a gun and I assume the guy in the car or not. I think she said one fella was sleeping on the couch and she said he was really surprised too. Because, you know, when he woke up he had (Indistinguishable) "She said that Sharon Tate, she said she was in the bedroom. But when I asked her about the color of the bedspread she said it was pulled down. She said that Sharon just said, "Well why are you doing this, you know, don't kill me, let me live just for my baby," and Sadie said, "I got no feelings for you bitch, we're doing you a favor, we're releasing you from this earth." And she said she had no feelings whatsoever for her because she was doing people a favor and in the future what should be. Like she said, people, you know, really you don't really live until you die.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say that she had stabbed Sharon or stabbed some of the people there?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah. Oh yeah, because she even told me she said, "Well it felt so good," she said "the first time that I stabbed her." She made a motion and that is when I told her I said, "I don't believe you did it." I said, "What does it feel like when you stab somebody?" I said I know because like I told you I have stabbed somebody and I, she kind of doubted me and I said well it has been quite a while ago. I told you the deal about my ex-husband and I said, "Did it feel kind of like a pillow?" and she said, "Yeah," and she got all enthused, "It felt like going into nothing just like into air." She said, "And she said that a couple of girls held Sharon's legs. I think it was Charlie held her arms, but I guess they took turns stabbing her. But then she said, now I don't know if the other guy came into the house or not but she said that a couple had to check the upstairs to see if anyone was up there. Now I don't know if that is when they found the other guy or girl or not. But there was somebody upstairs. I don't know if it was just the guy or what.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did they have to chase somebody? Did she mention chasing anyone?

MS. HOWARD: I don't remember because evidently there was a couple of people downstairs and a couple of people upstairs. In other words, they were all over the house. I told you what she said about that their were either a lot of furs around or skins or something. I think she mentioned there was a skin on the sofa or devan or something and also she mentioned that their was a desk there which is usual that the room have a desk. So I wondered if there might be a desk there. Then afterwards she said that they changed clothes in the car. And that some fella came out of the house and they were afraid that he was going to get the license number but it was a hot car that they were driving anyway so they took off.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say how far this was from where they parked the car originally or was it the same place that they parked the car?

MS. HOWARD: I don't know, but I assume that it was a few house from there. Evidently on the same street.

SERGEANT McGANN: where they parked the car?

MS. HOWARD: Uh huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you remember exactly what she said about that particular point?

MS. HOWARD: No. She just said that they saw some fella come out of the house when they were changing clothes in the car and they were afraid he was going to get the license number so we took off, she said. Even though it was a hot car anyway she said. It was an older car because I asked her, I said, "These cars you steal, what are they new cars?" She said, "No. I don't even know why people miss them because most of them are older cars."

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say when it was that she had first realized she had lost her knife?

MS. HOWARD: No. After it was all over, because she said they started to go back but they were afraid to go back. Then after that when she told me about she said, "Well you remember about a week or two after that?" She said, "When this couple in Beverly Hills they found? In the papter the police thought it was blackmail." She said, "It wasn't no blackmail." Oh, on the Tate deal she said, they wanted to do something to shock the world and that is when she said we were going to take their eyeballs out and crush them against the walls. But she said, "But we didn't do that, but I don't know if anyone else in the other rooms did it or not." because from the way she talked they were all over the house.

SERGEANT McGANN: Going back to the very first, here for a minute did she say who actually cut the wires and what they used?

MS. HOWARD: Charlie cut the wires, but she didn't say what with.

SERGEANT McGANN: She didn't say what with. Did she describe the gun that Charlie was using?

MS. HOWARD: No. She told me when the police arrested them out at some ranch or something out in the desert, I think she said that the police had gotten several guns. Now if that was one of them or not I don't know. She mentioned about one gun she said it was very different because they had to put it together or something. In other words, it was a different make, not a common make.

SERGEANT McGANN: And so you don't remember her actually describing the weapon that Charlie had used to shoot the girl? Or a weapon that Charlie had used more than other ones?

MS. HOWARD: Huh uh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she describe what they used to stab the people with?

MS. HOWARD: No. She just said that all the girls had knives, herself and two other girls and they all had knives and Charlie had a gun. The fella in the car had a gun but as I said I just assumed because the way she said, her knife, for her to be carrying it around it must have been a pocket knife.

SERGEANT McGANN: How about, did she mention any names at all of the other girls?

MS. HOWARD: No. I am trying to remember that name Katy keeps coming up now. I don't know if that Katy was in on that deal or not or if that was the Beverly Hills thing. But the name Katy keeps coming up somewhere. Do you know Katy, that maybe --

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, we have a couple of Katys in here. She didn't actually say her by name, or describe her, or give any indication?

MS. HOWARD: No. But she said that her and Katy were like Charlie's two proteges, or whatever you want to call them.

SERGEANT McGANN: Kind of number one girls, uh?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she mention the other girl?

MS. HOWARD: No.

SERGEANT McGANN: How about the man that remained in the car?

MS. HOWARD: No. She just, I don't remember.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say anything about why they cut the wires, the phone wires, and the other wires?

MS. HOWARD: I guess so the people couldn't call for help.

SERGEANT McGANN: What did she say about it actually?

MS. HOWARD: I don't know. She just said that they meant to cut the telephone wires. She said, I think Charlie cut the utility wires by mistake or something but it was supposed to be telephone wires. They didn't know who all, how many people were in the house at the time, or who was there really but they were just out to slaughter whoever was there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say why they had gone there to that particular place?

MS. HOWARD: Well, I am not sure. She said his was her first time there but as I told you that Terry Melcher, I know he didn't own the house because I heard that on the news the other day that some director owned it or something. But like I said when people are on LSD everything is kind of out of focus anyway. So it could have been that maybe they got the wrong house. But this Terry Melcher had something to do with it because she said that he had been out there a few times. But he hadn't gone through enough changes, and that he was still to hung up materially. I don't know whether they expected to find Terry Melcher there, Doris Day's son, or not. But as I said, he really didn't own the house but on LSD everything is kind of out of focus anyway.

SERGEANT McGANN: In other words, you think they went there actually to kill him, is this what she indicated to you, or what she said about it?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah. She said, I said, "Who did you think was going to be there?" She went on this thing about Terry Melcher. She said, "He is too hung up materially and we wanted to show im that all these material things don't mean a thing." So evidently she must have thought this was the house that he owned because they wanted to strike back at him or something that he owned. Yeah, because he is too hung-up materially, you know, he was trying to be in with their crowd but, you know, like she said, he was more or less a phony. I know because he didn't really think the way they did.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say who in the group was the contact for him or who his friend was?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, one of the Beach Boys introduced her, I think she said. I would remember the name if I heard it but I can't think of it.

SERGEANT McGANN: One of the Beach Boys had introduced Terry Melcher to the whole group or any specific person?

MS. HOWARD: Well, she said Charlie was there. She met him, I think she had been out with Terry Melcher a couple of times.

SERGEANT McGANN: How about any of the other girls up there?

MS. HOWARD: And she used to go with one of the Beach Boys. I can't think of his name.

SERGEANT McGANN: Sadie did?

MS. HOWARD: Uh huh.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Does Wilson ring a bell?

MS. HOWARD: What is his first name?

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Gary or Terry?

MS. HOWARD: No. I don't think so.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say any of the other girls had been out with Melcher or any of the other girls, or one of the girls was more or less kind of his girl, more or less?

MS. HOWARD: Huh uh. No. I think she said she had been out a couple of times or something, but that evidently he hadn't gone through enough changes. And I think she said he gave them a car or something just give it away. In other words, it wasn't material things that they wanted they wanted his mind, you know.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: She said they wanted his mind?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, well they wanted to show him the true way of life, you know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say what their philosophy was as far as sticking together and keeping silent, and such? Did she say what they had discussed?

MS. HOWARD: Well, they call themselves a family. Whenever a group of people are together like that and this Charlie was supposed to be like the father of it. As she said they called him the devil, or like she said, he is the devil sometimes and other times he is Jesus Christ. Like she said, Charlie has her mind and a few of the other girls there too. I guess he figures that he can control a women's mind easier than he can a man's. That's why I think she said there were many more girls there than there were men.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she mention any other men?

MS. HOWARD: I think she said that their was about sixteen girls and only about three or four men.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she mention any of them by name, any of them?

MS. HOWARD: No. Just Bobby and Charlie like she said, Bobby was trying to take Charlie's place that is why this deal, more or less, trying to take Charlie's place. Showing him that he wasn't the only one that could do things. He could too.

SERGEANT McGANN: And she said when they went in you thought she said they went in the back door, do you recall?

MS. HOWARD: It sounded like she said the kitchen door. I know she said the door was unlocked, but something about the kitchen. I know she said the kitchen lights were off when --

SERGEANT McGANN: Were off?

MS. HOWARD: Uh huh, when they went in the house the lights were off.

SERGEANT McGANN: How about the rest of the lights?

MS. HOWARD: She said the stereo was going. One fella was lying on the couch. Well, from the way she said the bedspread was pulled down and Sharon Tate was in the bedroom. I don't know if anyone was in there with her or not. And somebody was upstairs, but I don't remember if it was just a guy or or who was upstairs. I know that she said from the sound or it they were all over the house.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say anything specific that you have in your notes there, Ronni?

MS. HOWARD: I am just trying to think. She said that there was two girls in the group out there in the desert that they were leary about, that ran away from there, or something and they had overheard a lot of these things, you know. And she said if they could have found them they would have killed them. But like she said they had to because they knew too much.

SERGEANT McGANN: These were girls that were in the desert?

MS. HOWARD: Yah, in the desert with them and evidently these two girls took off one time when Charlie --

SERGEANT McGANN: Was what?

MS. HOWARD: Charlie was away and this is when these two girls took off and if they would have found them they would have had to kill them because they knew too much.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, did she mention their names or what part they played in it?

MS. HOWARD: No.

SERGEANT McGANN: Nothing at all?

MS. HOWARD: She just said these two girls, they were the weak ones of the group and she mentioned a girl named Sue. But I don't remember if that is the girl that comes to see her or. I asked her about the girl that comes to see her if she knew anything and she said, no. She had no part of it. So I don't know if that is her girl friend that comes to see her. The name Sue rings a bell somewhere.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say way they left to go up to the north, in the desert?

MS. HOWARD: Oh, yeah because that is where the hole is, in the desert. They call it devil's canyon or devil's hole or something. What is what she said, the government put a big fence around it and it is supposed to be owned by the bottomless pit and she said that, in other words, people are all going to go back to the earth eventually anyway and they wanted to be one of the first ones there to start it. In other words, so when people die like ashes to ashes and dust to dust. Well, their just kind of speeding things up a little bi.

SERGEANT McGANN: And to the best of your knowledge she can't remember weapons or what she said they did with them other than her's which she had lost there?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you recall anything that was said about what they did with these weapons when they completed their little rampage and their murders and what they would do with the weapons?

MS. HOWARD: Huh uh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Where they would take them?

MS. HOWARD: She said they all had to clean their knives off because their clothes were all bloody and the knives were all bloody.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say what she had done with the clothing?

MS. HOWARD: No. She didn't say what she did with the clothing. I assume they got rid of it.

SERGEANT McGANN: For a minute now if you can rack your mind as to what in the world she said about them going and changing their clothes in the car, if you can remember everything she said about that. It could be important to us.

MS. HOWARD: What they did with what?

SERGEANT McGANN: In regards to changing their clothes in the car, I mean, they're leaving the scene of the murders apparently and she at sometime discovers that she has lost her knife there, but they're afraid to go back and they go to their car. Okay, now can you remember exactly what she said, whether they got in the car and changed there or whether they drove somewhere and changed. If you can remember exact words. Think for a minute.

MS. HOWARD: I don't remember. I know they changed in the car but whether it was where they had parked the car or, you know, further on, I don't know. But she said that some man came out of the house and they were afraid that he would get their license number and so they took off, but I don't remember if it was on the same street, right near there or not. I told you what she said they wrote on the Beverly Hills house.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Yeah, we will come to that house.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say anything about writings on the Tate place? Did she say they had written anything up there?

MS. HOWARD: Only, you know, that "Pig", like that was in the papers.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, did you read that or did she mention anything?

MS. HOWARD: No. She said that they wrote "Pig" in blood.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say who wrote it?

MS. HOWARD: No, we.

SERGEANT McGANN: How about the Hinman thing did she ever mention any writings up there?

MS. HOWARD: The deal she is on now?

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

MS. HOWARD: No.

SERGEANT McGANN: She never mentioned any writings up there?

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she mention going into the Hinman house and wiping the house down so there would be no fingerprints?

MS. HOWARD: Oh, wow, yeah, I am sorry, wait a minute. I think she said, I know she said they tore the place up to make it look as if there had been a fight there or something. I am sorry, I forgot all about that and they tore the place up to make it look as if there had been a fight there.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: That was the Hinman place?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, the deal she is on.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she say anything about wiping down the place for prints and such?

MS. HOWARD: No. She didn't mention that.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she mention wiping down the Tate or the other place?

MS. HOWARD: No. Because I remember her saying on this deal what a ball she had just tearing up everything else to make it look as if there had been a fight or something.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she say where she stabbed Tate?

MS. HOWARD: I think she said her face was cut, and her chest. I know that she said her face was cut.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: And anything else, did she say anything else about any of the victims there in the Tate house?

MS. HOWARD: I think she said that there was a rope around this one guy's neck. They put a rope around his neck or something. I asked her about that and she said, "Well, we were going to string him up." She says so that way in case he moved around while we stabbed him he would just strangle himself. But I don't know whether they really did string him up or not.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she indicate that they brought the rope with them?

MS. HOWARD: I don't remember. I am not sure.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she mention that anyone had an unusual knife?

MS. HOWARD: No. She just said that they all had knives.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: She never said so and so had a certain kind of knife?

MS. HOWARD: No.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: When she talked about changing clothes in the car did she mention that before they went on one of these things they always took a change of clothes with them?

MS. HOWARD: No. But I didn't even have to ask that, because the way most of their people are they carry like their own, all their belongings with them, you know, like a pack in the back. You know, they usually don't have that many belongings anyway.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she talk about coming back from one murder, going back to the ranch and then going back out and committing another murder or did she just indicate that they just spent the weekend in town committing murders and then went back?

MS. HOWARD: No. Afterwards there was a time lapse, you know.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she indicate, in any way indicate, that there were people in the second murder that weren't on the first one?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, on the Beverly Hills thing, I think she just said, there was just Charlie, herself, and this other girls. I don't know if it was that Katy or not. But that name Katy keeps coming up and rings a bell.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: This would be on the murder?

MS. HOWARD: Beverly Hills.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Just Charlie, Sadie and Katy?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, I don't know if that Katy is Kathy or not but she calls her Katy.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she indicate why the other people didn't come along?

MS. HOWARD: No

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever indicate how they selected this house?

MS. HOWARD: No. Just by random. Just like she said this was only the first of many.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: This is the one where she told you about the writings?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, where she said they wrote "Arise", and "Death to all pigs" and, I believe she said, I think she even said they wrote "Helter Skelter" is supposed to be like this new movement or whatever it is up there.

SERGEANT McGANN: She spoke of helter skelter in addition to writing on the wall?

MS. HOWARD: Uh huh, yeah she said where is some song out, helter skelter or something. It means, most everyone, I guess, in the group knows what helter skelter means. It is supposed to be like their new movement, you know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she describe it exactly as to what it was, Helter Skelter? I mean did she sort of recruit you? I mean tell you that Helter Skelter meant this and this and this?

MS. HOWARD: It means you have to die in order to live, you know.

SERGEANT McGANN: What did she say about what was her thinking or what was her words of warning?

MS. HOWARD: That is what she told me.

SERGEANT McGANN: That is what she said?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah. She said you have to die in order to live like you should know it.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever try to turn you onto her way of thinking, explain it to you?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, well she figured that I was going along with it more or less if not she wouldn't have told me.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she say where you should go when you leave?

MS. HOWARD: Well, she told me I have to meet Charlie. She said he is Jesus Christ.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Where did she say you had to go to meet Charlie?

MS. HOWARD: Well, she said Charlie was in jail in Indio right now, but she said the police -- The government wants to put him away because they want to stop anyone that has a group of people, or more than one person has a group of people. Because they're afraid they might try to overthrow the world or something. In other words, she says they wish they could turn the whole world onto their way of thinking. She said that if a lot of, in other words, if they wipe out a lot of people well then they can just come in and take the children, and uncorrupt mind and make the mind think the way they want to, you know.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Very interesting.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say that is why they were all having babies up there; or was that just a result of their playing?

MS. HOWARD: I guess so.

SERGEANT McGANN: What, did she say one way or the other? No morals or scrouples or anything.

MS. HOWARD: She said if you feel like making love to this one or that one or five or six or whatever, you know. Evidently this Charlie, he was something of a man, you know. She said that, you know, maybe five or six girls and Charlie all at one time. She said if she felt like making love to a girl she would just tell her and that is why she said she couldn't understand why they didn't do it in jail, you know. And I said, "Well, you know, you have to conform according to where you are" and she said, "Yeah, well I keep forgetting because I don't have any inhibitions at all."

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Do you think she is a lesbian?

MS. HOWARD: No. She isn't really a lesbian she just likes whatever. Whether it's in the form of a male or female.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever make a pass at you?

MS. HOWARD: No, not really. She just told me she said, "Hey, I would like to make it with you one time." I told her, I said, "Well hey, you have to conform to where we are." I didn't want to scare her off so she wouldn't tell me anything else.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever talk about some girl that she is in love with? She is hung up on Charlie as a guy, did she say who she was hung up on?

MS. HOWARD: No.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: What did she say they did when they want to this Beverly Hills home from what you can recall about that?

MS. HOWARD: She told me about the writings on the wall. I think that was important.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she say where the man and woman was when they came into the house?

MS. HOWARD: No. She didn't go into much detail on this deal. Because like whenever she is talking it is like she keeps getting these flashes back from acid, you know. After you see things, and so on. She said she has taken it almost steady for the last four years, four and a half years. Like as she would be telling me she would skip from one thing to another and she would say, "Oh, I'm flashing so fast." You know, which is speeds up the way of thinking anyway and you know, your liable to get a million thoughts at once. That is why I said, I can't understand the way she was telling me. It was as if she was getting one thought and then she will jump to another thought, you know.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever comment on how they got into the house?

MS. HOWARD: She said the door was unlocked at the Tate house.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: How about the other house, the one in Beverly Hills?

MS. HOWARD: She didn't say how they got in there.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she talk about lights being on?

MS. HOWARD: No. She didn't say. She just said there was herself Charlie and this other girl. I don't know if it was that Katy or not.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever talk to you about liking animals? Dogs, cats, that type of thing?

MS. HOWARD: Huh uh.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever mention animals being present when they were murdering people?

MS. HOWARD: No. Only at the Tate house cause I asked her, I said, "That was a white cat wasn't it up at the Tate house?" and she said, "No, it was a black kitten." She said because I remember on the TV it was a black cat. So I told her, I said, "It was white wasn't it?" She said, "No it was black." (Unintelligible)... But the reason why I started taking notice because she said they had been out in the desert for so long and that, you know, they weren't near any newspapers, radios or anything. So that is why I figured, well even though a person could have gotten a lot of this out of the newspapers but their not the type of people that read newspapers but they were out there where they didn't get to a newspaper.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever mention ever taking anything from any of these homes? Something that caught her eye? Not that they went there to steal or rob but did she ever say I found a vase that really turned me on?

MS. HOWARD: No. She never mentioned anything.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: She never said she took anything uh? Did she indicate that her leader Charlie told her not ever to take anything if she wanted to take anything?

MS. HOWARD: No. She never mentioned taking anything, one way or the other but like she said, at different times the said that all we have given away thousands of dollars because money doesn't mean that much to me, she said you know we just give it away.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she say where she got the thousands of dollars?

MS. HOWARD: No. That is what I said. She never mentioned it.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: I think the last time when we talked with you, you talked about a fork?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, she said that she was going to stick a fork in the guy at the Beverly Hills chest or she did. She was going to do it or she did do it, a fork in the chest.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she say why?

MS. HOWARD: No.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she say where she got the fork?

MS. HOWARD: No. But I assume that it was probably in the house. A lot of these things that they do she keeps thinking up. See, the sight of blood excites her and like she said it is like a sexual release. She says it is even better than a climax. You know and by stabbing somebody like she said, after the first time it gets good to you, you know.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever talk about the people screaming?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, that excites her to have somebody scream. She said just sends a rush all the way through her, you know.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Do you remember in a little more detail how she said that?

MS. HOWARD: I just remember saying that Sharon Tate was was screaming, "No, don't kill me let me live for my baby." But she said that every time she screamed, I don't remember if she said that she stabbed her or she would get stabbed.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever talk about tieing anyone up other than with this rope?

MS. HOWARD: Huh uh, she didn't go into that. Huh uh as I said, she was flashing so quickly she went from one thing to the other.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever talk about a boat?

MS. HOWARD: No.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever indicate that she had been to --

MS. HOWARD: Malibu? She said she lived in Malibu.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Well how about around -- Well you wouldn't know if it was around the time of the murders. Did she ever say she went to a weekend resort like a lake?

MS. HOWARD: No. She didn't mention that.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever mention motorcycle riders to you?

MS. HOWARD: Oh yeah. Yeah that is why she said that they got friends that are with the Hells Angels, the Devil's Disciples. Because she said once they got enough people together Charlie with this thing that she said these people kind of throw fear into people anyway. These motorcyclists, the Devil's Disciples, I think she said and the Hells Angeles (Indistinguishable) they figure that if they're all combined, in other words, they would really throw some fear into the world.

SERGEANT McGANN: The other day when we were here you mentioned some Slaves, or something like that? That is a motorcycle club.

MS. HOWARD: No, I don't recall. Slaves you said?

SERGEANT McGANN: Slaves, some group know as the Slaves or something like that?

MS. HOWARD: Huh uh.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did the name Satan ever come up?

MS. HOWARD: No. Just Charlie is the devil.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever talk about a club called the Satans or something like that?

MS. HOWARD: I can't remember and I don't want to say one way or the other because I am not sure.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say how they got up to this Beverly Hills place when they went up there?

MS. HOWARD: No.

SERGEANT McGANN: What kind of transportation they had used?

MS. HOWARD: No. But she said they had stolen evidently several cars. She said that they used to take volkswagens and cut them down for something and make dune buggies out of them.

SERGEANT McGANN: While they were up there at the Beverly Hills place did they say, did she say how they got in there?

MS. HOWARD: No. She didn't go into much on that deal.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever say anything regarding the fellow that got his head cut off? Did they cut off more than his head? Just cut off his head and buried him?

MS. HOWARD: She didn't say what they did with the body. She just said that they would never find him and even if they did they wouldn't know who he was because she said they cut off his head.

SERGEANT McGANN: How did she describe her trips?

MS. HOWARD: Her trips? How could she --

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Well, did she indicate that when she went on a trip did she have a desire to see some blood or do some stabbing? Or did she just like to flake out and listen to some music?

MS. HOWARD: Oh, no they were always thinking of something new to do. Something that they had never done before. Because like she says she had experienced just about everything in life and so they were trying to evidently think of some new kick.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she say what other experiences she has had besides murdering people since she has done everything?

MS. HOWARD: She can't think of anything else that would move her really. She said she is going to have to think of something else. She wishes she could think of something else new because she has experienced everything.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: This kind of bores her now?

MS. HOWARD: No. The sight of blood still evidently excites her. Evidently this is the ultimate she has found because she said when her girl friend came and told her about this fella that killed himself shooting Russian roulette she said he had a smile on his face. That the girl held his hand while he died. She said imagine she said. She said this friend of her's had shot himself and she said he just climaxed all over himself, she said. So imagine how good it must have been.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she indicate that the girl that comes to see her was present when this fella killed himself?

MS. HOWARD: No. She didn't say if that was the girl or not but this is the girl that told her about it. When she introduced her it was right afterwards she came rushing out to me and she told me, because I was working down here then. She says, "Guess what?" She said, "My girl friend just told me that this guy killed himself playing Russian roulette and she said imagine how beautiful to be there when it happened, you know, and she said that this other girl she said one girl just held his wrist while he died, imagine how beautiful.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: She said the girl held his wrist while he dies uh?

MS. HOWARD: Uh huh. She said that the first time (Unintelligible) In other words, she said it was meant to be.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she say who else was present when that thing went down?

MS. HOWARD: No. She just, I don't know if it was the girl that came to visit her or another girl that was just holding the guy's hand.

SERGEANT McGANN: What was her name?

MS. HOWARD: I don't remember the name of the girl that comes to see her. I don't know if that is Sue or what. The name Sue comes up somewhere.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she mention any girls that were pregnant at the ranch or pregnant up north at the desert?

MS. HOWARD: She said she had her baby up there but that some other girl was taking care of it or something.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she ever talk about her kid?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: What did she say about it?

MS. HOWARD: That she said she had him without any anesthetic and that two girls held her legs and two held her arms and while she just bore down and gave birth to the baby.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she indicate that Charlie was there when this happened?

MS. HOWARD: I don't remember. I just remember she said two girls held her arms and two held her legs which seems to kind of ring a bell in the Tate case. It seems like somebody is always holding somebody's arms or legs.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever indicate that she had to chase somebody to kill them? That they were trying to get away?

MS. HOWARD: I don't want to say for sure because I'm not sure.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever indicate that someone else had to chase someone to kill them because they were getting away?

MS. HOWARD: That is what I say. I don't want to say either way because I am not sure. I don't want to say anything unless I'm for sure.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Was there anything else that comes to your mind that she said no matter how insignificant?

MS. HOWARD: Not that I can think of right now.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: What else did she talk about besides these murders? You say she mentioned her kid, now and then?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, how she used to masterbate him, make him get a hard on, a little one, I forget how old seventeen months or something she said.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: She did that to the boy?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah, imagine.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she tell you the name of the child?

MS. HOWARD: Yes, and I can't remember. It is one of those long once like Abacadabra, or something, I really, I can't remember.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she say where she thought of the name for the kid?

MS. HOWARD: (Unintelligible)...And then one part is his middle name and the last part is his last name (Unintelligible)...But she wanted a name that there would never be another one like it. I told her I don't think you'll ever find another one like it.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she say whose baby it was? Who the father was?

MS. HOWARD: Huh uh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she know?

MS. HOWARD: No, and I don't think she cared really. Like she said it doesn't matter who gives birth to somebody their just an instrument in sex or love or whatever you want to call it.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: She feels she is just an instrument?

MS. HOWARD: Yeah. Well, like she said she will do anything that a man tells her to do. She said she will do anything that a man tells her to do because that is why women are put on this earth to do what a man tells you to do, no matter what it is. That is waht she mentioned about this deal. She said she would do, in other words, she did what Bobby had told her to do, you know.

SERGEANT McGANN: In other words, Bobby had told her to kill Hinman?

MS. HOWARD: Yes. She said, "I don't even question him." She said, "When a man tells me to do something I am going to do it."

SERGEANT McGANN: What did she say Bobby told her?

MS. HOWARD: She said they knew they had already planned to kill him so I forget Bobby held the guy's arms while I stabbed him but this was already prearranged. They already knew what they were going to do before they went in the car. She said (Indistinguishable) when a man tells her to do something.

SERGEANT McGANN: Anything else that sticks in your mind?

MS. HOWARD: Not that I can think of right now. I think this deal happened in Topanga Canyon she said.

SERGEANT McGANN: Which deal is this now?

MS. HOWARD: The one she is on now, happened in Topanga Canyon and I don't know if that was at the time she was living in Malibu or not. I told you she said there was eleven murders they will never solve.

SERGEANT McGANN: She said there was eleven they would never solve?

MS. HOWARD: Uh huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did you ever say, well tell me about them all?

MS. HOWARD: No. I was saving that for another day. I don't want to because she gets very suspicious real fast. So I didn't want to press anything too much time.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did she mention killing anyone up there, up north in the desert? You said that they would have killed the two girls that ran away if they could have found them. Did they mention killing anyone up there?

MS. HOWARD: Well, the guy with his head cut off that was supposed to be in the desert. I think, I don't know. She said a couple of others in the desert, I don't know. I don't want to say one way or the other but there are a couple of others somewhere. I don't know if it is in the desert or in. I am not sure.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever make a statement that I had to dig the grave or anything like that?

MS. HOWARD: No.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she indicate that there was another girl present when they cut this fella's head off, like me and another girl?

MS. HOWARD: No. But the way she said we, I assumed that it was more than her and a guy evidently. I assumed that there was more than two people.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Did she ever indicate to you?

MS. HOWARD: No.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: She never said anything like on the fourth of July we killed somebody?

MS. HOWARD: Huh uh.

SERGEANT PATCHETT: One Friday night we went out driving and we decided to kill somebody, or Tuesday?

MS. HOWARD: Huh, no she never said. And as I said I didn't want to press her because she kept thinking that there was some plant in there anyway. Some girl that was planning to, because she said that the time when she was in there this one certain girl came up to her and offered her to get an attorney and everything and anyway she was very suspicious of her so she was always keeping an eye on that girl. Like she said, "If she is she won't get out of here alive."

SERGEANT PATCHETT: Does she have access to a knife?

MS. HOWARD: No. You know in jail if a person wants to get something they can. If I wanted to get one I could from one of the girls that works in the kitchen. But even though they count them and all that. But the fact is I found a putty knife that was missing and they had the sergeants and everything looking up in the kitchen looking for it one night and I am the one that found it stacked on top of the (Unintelligible)...months before she got here though.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, did we give you a card tonight?

MS. HOWARD: No. You didn't

SERGEANT McGANN: If you want to get a hold of us.