Category Archives: Audio Archives

Lynette Fromme interview with Dr. James Richmond, September 21, 1975

Wednesday, May 7th, 2014

May 7 – On the afternoon of Sunday, September 21, 1975 Lynette Fromme was interviewed on tape at the Sacramento County Jail by Dr. James Richmond, at the request of U.S. District Judge Thomas J. MacBride, to evaluate if Fromme was mentally competent to give up counsel and represent herself at trial. The tape was hand delivered to MacBride the following day and placed under seal, along with Dr. Richmond’s determination which read:

Lynette Alice Fromme was seen in psychiatric evaluation on the 21st of September, 1975, pursuant to your order and in accordance with provisions of Title 18 U.S.C. Section 4244. Present throughout the examination was Robert M. Holley, Assistant Federal Defender. Mr. David R. Kraft, Federal Public Defender Investigator, was present periodically to supervise the tape recording of the examination, The evaluation lasted approximately one hour and forty minutes and was conducted with the stipulation from Mr. Holley that absolutely no questions be asked with reference to the events of the alleged offense.

The defendant is a 26 year old, single, caucasian woman who stated that she was charged with the attempted assassination of the President of the United States. She stated the alleged offense occurred on the 5th of September, 1975, and that she had been arrested at approximately 11 A.M. of that same day, being held in the Sacramento County Jail since that time. She estimated she had been in court approximately 3 times. She said that she was represented by the Federal Defender’s Office, having discussed her case to some degree with both E. Richard Walker and with Robert Holley of that office. She stated that presently she was represented primarily by Mr. Holley whom she felt to be a competent attorney. She stated that she had experienced no difficulty in communicating with each of these attorneys. She expressed her awareness that the offense was a very serious one and that she faced “years to life” in prison if she were found guilty. She stated that she had entered a plea of “Not Guilty,” this plea having been decided upon primarily by herself with concurrence from appointed counsel. While unwilling to discuss in any detail her planned defense, she stated that she thought there was a 70% chance of being found Not Guilty, though she had concluded that she would probably do some prison time, perhaps for a charge other than attempted assassination.

With regard to the issue of self representation in court, Miss Fromme stated that she had considered this issue at length and that she had a definite conviction “in heart and mind” to carry this through. She expressed her firm conviction that noone could adequately speak for her, that people generally should speak for themselves. She expressed concern about the distortions that had appeared in various publications, indicating in a general fashion that she hoped her image might be changed by her deportment during the trial. She expressed awareness that there would be attempts to make her out to be a bad person, stating that she could remain calm under such a situation. While saying that only she could adequately speak for herself, she said that she was aware the trial situation was not a forum to express her ideas generally and that she was prepared to accept the authority of the court. She anticipated no difficulty in conducting herself in a “businesslike” manner. She acknowledged her lack of familiarity with the technical aspects of courtroom procedures, saying however, that she thought she could pick these up as the trial proceeded as she was “quick” when she wishes to be. She stated that she did “plan” on having Mr. Holley as her co-counsel, though this matter had not previously been discussed, and that such an arrangement would be “fair.”

Miss Fromme stated that it was not a severe emotional stress to appear in court, that she felt comfortable with you as the trial judge, and that she had a general conviction that you would handle her case fairly. This she said was not based on any personal knowledge of your record or the types of decisions which you have made, but rather was based on a general feeling of comfort in her communication with you. She stated further that she had full recall of the circumstances of the offense, and that she could discuss these in detail without undue emotional strain. She said She has the ability to “make the best of any situation” she is in.

Miss Fromme said that she was feeling well, mentally and physically. She denied any present anxiety, depression, paranoia, hallucinations, insomnia, anorexia, depersonalization, or use of medication. She said that she was sleeping well, arising refreshed. She estimated she had lost some weight, the product of passing up jail food which is markedly different from her prior health food and vegetarian diet. She denied any prior history of significant mental illness, psychiatric therapy or hospitalization.

Miss Fromme acknowledged having experimented with LSD and marijuana in prior years. She said that newspaper accounts of how heavily she had used drugs were patently false. She estimated that she had used LSD approximately 30 or less times, and she stated that she had never experienced any severe psychiatric disturbance from such use. She said that she had used marijuana lightly, perhaps one joint per week, in no steady pattern. She said that the effects from it were even lighter than from the LSD. She denied any residual memory or intellectual deficit from the use of either.

Miss Fromme did not wish to discuss her family or prior life in any detail as she felt this was not pertinent to the issues at hand in the present evaluation. She claimed that she had gotten along well with parents and siblings and that she was not a rebellious child. She stated that when she was 18 she and her father disagreed about certain things, and he asked her to leave home. She has not been contacted by her parents since incarcerated.

Miss Fromme has been educated through high school. She did very well academically to start, but lost interest in her later study and her grades fell to average. She had started college, planning to major in psychology, but dropped out when she was asked to leave home.

With regard to her life from 18 to the present, Miss Fromme said that newspaper and magazine accounts were grossly distorted in many ways. She described this period of her life as one marked by increasing social awareness with a discovery of a joy in giving. She denied that she had participated in “sex or drug orgies, or cult meetings, or hanging Christ in effigy, or thinking Charlie was Christ.” She said that she believes in God as “life force” resident in all living things, and that all persons are potential deities. She said that this world is a beautiful place. She expressed no firm belief, pro or con, regarding some final “judgement”, but she stated that people pretty much “judge themselves.”

Miss Fromme is a young caucasian woman with long reddish-brown hair who appeared several years younger than her stated age. She was dressed in typical jail garb. Both her clothing and her hair were somewhat disheveled, though her grooming generally was adequate. She had a careful, somewhat tired expression about her. As the examination continued she loosened up emotionally, showing a range of emotional expression in keeping with the present situation. She smiled appropriately periodically. She displayed no overt anxiety or depression, and there were no signs of a psychotic thought disorder. She was attentive, comprehended my questions without difficulty except for occasional words with which she was not familiar, and her responses were quick, pertinent, and appeared candid. Her statements were consistently rational. She appeared to be a most sensitive and intuitive person, acutely tuned in to social issues. At one point she suggested a way in which I might join in with a constructive social activist project prominent in her thoughts. There was an air of composed restraint with regard to what she believed to be gross and repeated distortions and misinterpretations of her prior life and activities. She was alert, well oriented, and displayed intact intellectual functions including that of memory. Her abstractive abilities were quick and certain, indicating a definite ability to think symbolically. While not having extensive formal education, she appeared to be of at least bright normal intelligence. While she obviously had strong underlying emotions, she was consistently soft spoken and definitely in control.

As I explored in detail with Miss Fromme her thoughts and intentions with regard to representing herself in court, she became concerned that perhaps I was trying to talk her out of such a course of action. She accepted my reassurance that I had not been appointed nor had I come for such a purpose. It appeared that she had given considerable thought to this issue, that she was accepting of the fact that she was not technically experienced, but that she was firmly determined to do this if at all possible. Her desire for co-counsel was most appropriate, though I could not be certain that this thought had preceded my questioning. In this regard, she was most attentive to the presence of Mr. Holley, and she indicated that she wished to speak with him as soon as the examination was concluded.

It is my opinion that Lynette Alice Fromme is mentally competent to understand the proceedings against her and to assist in her own defense. It is my further opinion that she has the capacity to meaningfully waive the right to counsel, should this be her desire.

In July of 2013, the Eastern District Historical Society and the Sacramento Bee began filing a series of motions in U.S District court, requesting the court unseal items possessed by the clerk from the Fromme trial. On the list was the 93-minute audio recording of the Fromme/Richmond interview.

The following month, U.S. District Judge Kimberly Mueller tentatively ordered the release of a number of sealed materials from the trial. However, the Fromme/Richmond recording wasn’t included on the list and remained under seal. Attorneys representing the Eastern District Historical Society and the Sacramento Bee partially objected to ruling, arguing that the Fromme/Richmond tape should not be excluded. Their argument cited United States v. Kaczynski, in which the Ninth Circuit court had granted the motion to unseal a redacted version of Theodore Kaczynski’s psychiatric competency report.

A week later, U.S. Attorney Christiaan Highsmith responded to the Sacramento Bee’s partial objection, writing:

The Government objects to this request because the defendant, Ms. Fromme, has not been notified of the Bee’s motion. In United States v. Kaczynski, 154 F.3d 930 (9th Cir. 1998), which the Bee cites in its motion, the Court of Appeals ordered the release of redacted versions of the defendant’s psychiatric competency report. In the Kaczynski case, the defendant was provided with notice of the motion to unseal his psychiatric report, and he opposed that motion before the Court of Appeals made it ultimate decision to unseal portions of the psychiatric report. Here, however, Ms. Fromme has not yet been provided with notice of the Bee’s motion to unseal. The Government believes it is proper that Ms. Fromme be notified of the motion to release her psychiatric report before the Court issues its order concerning whether the report must be unsealed.

On November 12, 2013, notice was sent to Lynette Fromme’s last known address that a hearing on the motion to unseal the psychiatric report would be held in Sacramento on January 17, 2014. It is unknown whether Fromme would’ve objected to the release, or if she even received the notice, because she never responded.

After both the U.S. Attorney and the court determined Fromme was provided adequate notice, the motion to unseal was granted in part in order for the tape to be digitized so that the Judge could review it to determine if redaction was necessary.

On April 16, 2014, Judge Mueller made her final ruling, unsealing the entire recording, writing:

In this case, given the contents of the audio recording and the applicable law, the court finds no need to redact portions of the recording. Unlike the redactions in Kaczynski, there is no discussion of ‘private information’ or information that has ‘the potential to embarrass a person not before the court.’ Instead, the recording exclusively explores, through Dr. Richmond’s questioning, defendant’s background, demeanor, and mental state and explores defendant’s motivation, desire, and ability to represent herself. Dr. Richmond reviews these issues for the purpose of determining whether defendant was competent to stand trial and represent herself, if she wished. Thus, the court finds unsealing the entire report ‘serve[s] the ends of justice by informing the public about the court’s competency determination.’

Audio Archives, Danny DeCarlo interviewed by the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department – Part One

Saturday, January 4th, 2014

Jan. 13 – Part one of the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department, Homicide Bureau interview of Straight Satans motorcycle club member Danny DeCarlo, regarding the murder of Gary Hinman. This interview was conducted at the Hall of Justice on November 19, 1969.

DANNY DeCARLO: (Unintelligible)

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Just be honest. Danny, all, all we’re asking from you, is just be honest with us.

Don’t uh – If – if you’re honest with us – I, I, promise you that I can’t be any different than Gutierrez. We’re gonna be just as honest with you. And – In fact, we’ve already started being honest with you.

(Unintelligible)

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok

(Unintelligible), Sergeant Paul Whiteley and Sergeant (Unintelligible).

Well, let’s first of all make sure we’ve got your right name.

Ok, you’re Daniel T. DeCarlo, is that right?

DANNY DeCARLO: That’s correct.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok, and your address is 8335?

DANNY DeCARLO: (Unintelligible)

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: a-o-l-e-g-i-o, drive

DANNY DeCARLO: drive, L.A. 45

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Do you have a phone there, Danny?

DANNY DeCARLO: Yes sir, I do. 641-1691.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: 1691.

What’s your father’s first name?

DANNY DeCARLO: Thomas.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Mother’s name?

And your mother?

DANNY DeCARLO: Gloria. Gloria Marie, DeCarlo.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok, Will you tell us – first of all – what you know, about — Ah, I turned it up. I thought it was doing. Something to tell it, all these god damn

(Unintelligible; too many people talking at one time)

Uh, let’s start out with all you know about Bobby Beausoleil.

DANNY DeCARLO: Alright. Ok, Bobby now — from what I first heard about Bobby, he was a musician; he knew music. And I understand also, that he was one of the best guitar players, that are around.

Now Bobby, used to live at that ranch at one time, but he left (unintelligible), everybodys come back. Well, approximately, two weeks before Gary Hinman got it, maybe not even that, maybe a week and a half.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Two weeks is the following week.

DANNY DeCARLO: Gary shows back — I mean Bobby shows back up at the ranch

(background noises)

Now, he said he was hung up on this little girl up there. He said, that’s one of the reasons why, because he was trying to get her, to leave the ranch with him. But, Charlie was his god. Whatever Charlie did, he did. Whatever Charlie think, he’d think. It was this tight, you know.

So, and you just want about Beausoleil. Well, that’s about all I know, that’s first how I met him. Just prior to what happened to Hinman. And uh, he bought the three wheeler and he wanted me to rebuild the three wheeler for him. (unintelligible) but I never got around to it (unintelligible)

That’s uh – that’s about as far as I know, thats he’s a musician, a friend of Charlie’s, uh, the time he (unintelligible) the ranch, I saw a three wheeler out with him, that he was building. The first contact I had with him was about parts. He called up the ranch and he wanted to trade parts. He had this motorcycle, he had that motorcycle.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Were you living at the ranch at that time Danny?

DANNY DeCARLO: Yeah.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok.

DANNY DeCARLO: Now —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Did you have a conversation with him, right after or just before, the Hinman deal went down, with Gary. Did you know Gary Hinman?

DANNY DeCARLO: No, never seen him before in my life, I didn’t know who he was.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: You’re sure you didn’t.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Pardon me

(Unintelligible; too many people talking at one time)

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok, you didn’t know Gary?

DANNY DeCARLO: I’ve never seen the man in my life.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok. Tell us, tell me what happened then. Just about the time about the Gary Hinman deal. What was the next contact you had with Bobby?

DANNY DeCARLO: The next contact – well, Bobby was right there where I was living.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: He was living there same time you were.

DANNY DeCARLO: Same time I was.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok.

DANNY DeCARLO: Ok, the first thing I ever heard about Hinman, was that he had 20 grand.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Who told you this?

DANNY DeCARLO: Charlie, he told me this.

He had $20,000 and they were going to go out there and get the money off him. Now they, this is, they were talking about this for probably weeks – the Gary Hinman’s money. According —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: (Unintelligible) they, both knew Hinman?

DANNY DeCARLO: They both knew Gary, from prior contact with Gary. Alright, he had 20 grand. Where he got this money, I don’t know? If he had 20 grand, I don’t know? They just said it was $20,000 that they were gonna get.

So they have to, talk somebody out of it. So they’re gonna talk it out of Gary Hinman.

So, they sent Bobby, they sent Sadie, and they sent Mary.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Sadie is who?

DANNY DeCARLO: Sadie Glutz.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Sadie Glutz.

DANNY DeCARLO: Right.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Mary is, Mary who?

DANNY DeCARLO: Brunner.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok.

Sent them up to Gary’s house?

DANNY DeCARLO: Right.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Do you know where Gary’s house is?

DANNY DeCARLO: Not the slightest idea.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok.

DANNY DeCARLO: Ok, now I’m telling you, what he told me, when he came back, I’ll run it on down to you.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: He?

DANNY DeCARLO: He is Bobby Beausoleil.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok.

DANNY DeCARLO: Right from the horse’s mouth. Now this is when he came back. And a little bit, what Charlie told me, from when they got there. Now when they left, I don’t know. When they came back, I don’t know. What they left in, I don’t know. I’m only telling you what he told me when he came back. And that’s where I’m going to start, when he came back. Ok, I was in the end bunkhouse, on the ranch. Right, he came back, and uh, I says — he was telling me about uh, he had stabbed Gary Hinman. He says, ‘and I got the motherfucker, I said, I killed him.’ He says, “it’s pretty weird, I never killed anyone before in my life.” And he had a little knife, that he carried with him. A little a, like a bowie knife – a mexican, bowie knife. A Mexican, a bowie with a blade that comes up like this and down like this and under, fancy handle, fancy engraving on the handle. You people have it.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: How do you know that?

DANNY DeCARLO: Cus, he carried it constantly on his hip —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Mmm hmm.

DANNY DeCARLO: — on a sheath. When he got busted up there in San Luis Obispo in that little Toyota, he had that knife on him. He was supposed to take that Toyota out of town —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Let me ask you something.

DANNY DeCARLO: Ok

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: How do you know he had the knife on him?

DANNY DeCARLO: Cause he (Unintelligible), he never parted with it.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok.

DANNY DeCARLO: When he did it, Bobby — Charlie told him to get rid of the knife, he never did. He didn’t want to get rid of the knife, because he loved it. That’s why he kept it with him. So when he got arrested up in San Luis Obispo, he had the knife with him, right? He had that knife? Didn’t your crime lab check that knife and it came back clean? Well that was the knife that did it. I almost choked, when I heard that.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Well now, not that our crime lab came back clean, but we have, we did test the knife.

DANNY DeCARLO: Yeah, well he, he called the ranch while he was in jail and said, yeah the crime lab came back, and he said the knife, wasn’t the knife that did it.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: That’s not true.

DANNY DeCARLO: Well, that’s what he said.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok, anyway. Let’s go down, specifically – first of all – I take it you’re gonna tell me a conversation you got from Beausoleil, some that you got from Manson, and you pieced the whole thing together, of what happened.

DANNY DeCARLO: Now, the conversation I had with Manson, is that, that Gary had 20 grand.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok.

DANNY DeCARLO: And uh, he was gonna get the 20 grand off Gary – force him out of it. Not only the 20 grand, but he was gonna get him to sign over his house, sign over his car, and that Volkswagen bus. Now all-of-a-sudden my name got next to that Volkswagen bus, it was at the ranch when I was up there. But believe me, I had nothing to —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: The guy we, we arrested in the car said you were one of the guys who sold it.

DANNY DeCARLO: He’s a lying motherfucker and go up against a lie detector test.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok, we’re not making any accusations —

DANNY DeCARLO: Well, I’m not —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: — I’m just told you how you’re name got into the deal.

DANNY DeCARLO: Well.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok. well anyway, let’s go – first things first. Ok, first, let’s go, so it’s clear in our minds. First of all, why don’t you tell us, uh Danny, what Robert Beausoleil told you, just what he told you.

DANNY DeCARLO: Ok, this is, what I’m telling you is after he did it.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok.

DANNY DeCARLO: He came back and we got to talking about Gary. And he ran down the whole trip, of, what he, what he did when he was up there.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Tell me what he told you.

DANNY DeCARLO: Him, Sadie, Mary, went up to see Gary. Bobby, sitting there bullshiting with him.

“Hey Gary, what’s happening, how’s it going?”

“Pretty Good”

“Yeah, good to hear that”

“How you doing?”

“Yeah, good”

“Glad to hear that”

“Yeah, that good to hear.”

This went on for a couple of hours. Then Bobby said, “Gary, I want everything you got” and pulls out a gun, that 9mm Radom. That’s the pistol, that, they had bought. Cus I was with them, it was the same day I bought that Signat .45 for Charles, under Richard Smith. That people are telling me I have to go turn myself in for. I bought that gun the same day they bought that Radom, .9mm polish Radom. I should’ve let them buy both, but I didn’t. But anyway, he pulled the gun on him.

“So look here Gary, I want your money.”

“I want everything you got.”

“Crazy motherfucker, got outta my house, you piece of shit. Get the hell outta my house.”

Bobby pistol whipped him, bam! And the first time he hit him, he cracked, the pistol grip on him; the pistol grip handle, was, if you know – if you’re familiar with a .9mm Radom, second world war, polish, that gun was shot. Shot it once and it chipped. And the pistol grip was very brittle. He dropped the pistol and it broke, the pistol grip shattered, because it was really brittle plastic. When we brought the pistol back, the uh, the pistol grip was broken in half, on one side, it was broken in half. Cus I remember, “Who the fuck did this?” I said. Bobby said, “I broke that on Gary’s head.”

Ok, so he pulled the gun out on him, and uh, Gary wasn’t going for it.

“Man, get the hell outta my fucking house, man. Get the hell out of here.”

So Bobby pistol whipped him, you see. He threw them out (unintelligible) “put two fuckers in him if you don’t. I want you to know I’m not fucking around. Look here Gary, I don’t want no trouble with you. I don’t want to hurt you. I want your $20,000, where’s it at?”

Gary, “I don’t have no money, I don’t have nothing.”

Bobby wouldn’t believe him. So, he gave the gun to Sadie, “Sadie watch him”

Gary was sitting behind his desk (unintelligible) So Bobby went and searched the house. And Bobby said, he’s in the other room and heard Sadie say, “Now sit down Gary. Now Gary sit down, don’t make me shoot you, now Gary.” Now so Bobby said, he ran back in there, just about the time that Gary got to Sadie with the gun. All three of them met at the same time. They’re hassling with the gun and it went off. The bullet, Bobby says, traveled, right into a drain pipe, right through that, ricocheted, it went through the wall; up into the house, (unintelligible) in the back. He said, if the police go back there, do you think they can find the bullet? I said, yes they could. And that’s why – that’s when they got rid of the pistol. After that, they didn’t want the pistol traced back. So they got rid of the pistol and gave it to this other guy, who I already told Sergeant Gutierrez who it was. And uh, so anyway, they wrestled the gun away from Gary. And he gave him (unintelligible) help him up for Gary to settle down. So about that time, Bobby called up Charlie. So, Charlie said alright, I’ll come up there. You know Bruce went up there.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Were you there when Bobby called?

DANNY DeCARLO: No.

I wasn’t there but he called the ranch and he asked to go down to a pay phone. Gary said – Charlie said, pay phone.

William “Billy” Doyle interviewed by LAPD Lt. Earl Deemer 8/30/69 – Part Two

Tuesday, July 2nd, 2013

Jul 2 – Part two of Lt. Earl Deemer’s August 30, 1969 interview of William “Billy” Doyle in Toronto, Canada.

SATURDAY, AUGUST 30, 1969, TORONTO, CANADA

LT. EARL DEEMER: Were you ever at a party at uh, Cielo, when a, beef occurred; when Polanski was present? (unintelligible)

WILLIAM DOYLE: Unfortunately I was.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Give me the rundown on that.

WILLIAM DOYLE: Yes, I was invited to a party at Roman’s – and Cass and I were both invited. I was invited by Wojciech. Cass had been invited by Roman. We were both – we were invited as a couple, by both of them.

Uh, Tom and John were up in – in Los Angeles at the time.

I invited neither of them.

Perhaps we should use that machine. If you could just give me an idea of the kind of questions you’re going to ask me?

LT. EARL DEEMER: I could –

WILLIAM DOYLE: I’d like you to know, that uh, Del Negro(?) invited John Deturo to that party, not me. And I made a point —

LT. EARL DEEMER: Who invited him?

WILLIAM DOYLE: Del Negro.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Uh.

WILLIAM DOYLE: And I made a specific point of criticizing Del, suggesting to Del that John won’t be there.

Uh, his brother-in-law will uh, confirm that for you. His brother-in-law had to go to the parking lot and straighten it out. John got a little juiced. And everybody at the party knew each other, of course. Uh Del invited John because I – he assumed that John and I were friends and that I would want John to be there. I didn’t know we didn’t invite John.

Uh, you know what those parties are like. I don’t serve any. I don’t need any investigation by describing a party – you already know what can – how (unintelligible) about how the parties are.

I like John. And uh, John didn’t know anyone long, and those people are very cliquish. And uh, their generosity uh, to strangers is uh, is not a, is not a watermark of these people, generally. And, for rightly so, their public is a stranger uh, and uh, they’re usually mobbed. And so uh, John maybe had a few drink, which he doesn’t do, as a rule. And he was at this party for two hours and I don’t believe anybody said anything except for me said anything to him. And he felt obviously useless there and he had no way to leave. And I could see you begin to look tough. I went into another room, talking with some people. When I came, back, somebody ran in and grabbed me and said Deturo is up in the parking lot, this one’s in trouble. Ben Carruthers and I went out to the parking lot. And John was arguing with the parking lot attendants. He uh – I believe that, they had asked him, you know, some (unintelligible). They felt his behavior was kind of strange; that they were trying to really look after him, as attendants usually do to people who are at Hollywood parties. If a star get [tape ends]

WILLIAM DOYLE: ..those people, that’s my first connection to that house. It was a very expensive home, there was a lot of very lovely landscaping up there. I didn’t notice the house in the back; the first few times I was there.

I’d loved – I’d loved to help you.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Mm Hmm.

WILLIAM DOYLE: I loved Wojciech.

I don’t think Wojciech would willing have hurt me or anyone else.

And I don’t think there’s a possibility in the world that Wojciech would’ve stood by and let anybody hurt Sharon.

He may – he might’ve let Jay handle his own case. But in the final analysis he wouldn’t let anybody do him serious harm.

LT. EARL DEEMER: What about his relationship with Gibby?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I think his relationship with Gibby – I think Mr. Folger should and will soon investigate everything and everyone. Gibby Folger was not a drug addict. Gibby Folger, I repeat, was not a drug addict. And, and – thought it was a big deal, and thought she was being incredibly mischievous to take a poke off of somebody else’s joint.

Gibby was a girl of breadth. She was a lady of equality. I was very, very, very fond of Gibby. She was uh, lovely girl.

As was Sharon – was Sharon, I think. They were really nice people – you don’t understand they were really, really fine people. It’s all a lot of nonsense and crap in the newspapers, about those girls. Neither of those girls were whores, to my knowledge. For sure Gibby wasn’t. I didn’t know Sharon all that well, but I knew Gibby. I was exposed to her a lot. She was a nice girl. She loved Wojciech and that was oblivious. She wanted him to marry her. I believe he had a wife or something in Poland. He used to talk about it when he used to drink a lot of Vodka.

Wojciech had uh, Wojciech was violently anti-Nazi. I made the mistake one time of saying in my opinion, that Asianatic Communism was more subhuman than uh, as in my opinion was uh, the worst political system in the world. And Wojciech became hysterical – apparently that had been the night that I had taken all those drugs apparently. He had gave me all those drugs and thats why he was mad a me because he was, saying that the Nazis were the worst. Apparently he had some bitter experiences with them at the hands.

And he wouldn’t marry Gibby on the account she was wealthy. I believe uh –

LT. EARL DEEMER: But he would let her keep him.

WILLIAM DOYLE: I don’t believe she was keeping him, I believe Roman was. And it may be expedited for Roman to deny it now. Uh, Wojciech has told me so.

Wojciech indicated to me that his friend Roman, uh, was helping him.

I never – never saw Wojciech doing any work. I never knew – but Wojciech told me he was having problems with his working paper.

So I assume the kind of help was material aid. You can’t live in Hollywood, in a $200,000 home, and drive a car, and have clothes, and uh, and buy drugs, and have parties, and have catering services and carry on in general, in an, in an, in an in-depth social scene, without money. It can’t be done. I couldn’t afford it.

LT. EARL DEEMER: How did you support yourself while you were there.

WILLIAM DOYLE: I had some money when I arrived there, and it was very little. And I was very prudent with it. And I spent a total of maybe, five, six hundred dollars on drugs, and that was my major expenditure.

All the time I was there – I had – I had $10,000. And in the end, the last few months I didn’t even have enough money to pay for taking the garbage away from Cass’ house. Cass was having some problems with the IRS. And I paid – footed the bills there. And if you ask Ben or Judy Carruthers, they’ll tell you so.

LT. EARL DEEMER: How about Pic, how did he support himself?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I don’t have the faintest idea. I believe when Pic came back from Europe he had some money.

Pic has always been nefarious to me – in his financial dealings.

When I first met Pic, he was strung out. I cleaned him up. I guess you know that.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Mm Hmm.

WILLIAM DOYLE: The next time I met Pic, he was strung out. I cleaned him up.

I made him cut all his hair off. One time I brought him to Canada; put him on a train. And then he went to Europe. His hair was short and he was fine. He went away and got his leg operated on, it was a big success; he came back.

Hung out with his musician fellows, got strung out again. Once again I threw him out of the house.

He was hanging around with Cass. I’m sure you know all about that too.

I love Cass. She was a nice girl, we had a lot in common. She had the same values as I did. Unfortunately, somebody convinced her that I killed those people. That I had snuck back into the country and done it. And then along with the super paranoia – concerning her girl – her, her daughter Owen, (unintelligible) because every mother’s first thought goes to her child.

She called me and told me that she had, told the police a whole bunch of things concern – about me; she apologized.

She told me that, she didn’t believe that I had did it. And that, at the time, that Mr. John Phillips had told her that, the police were coming there to arrest her; for withholding – withholding information and that she’d be an accessory to murder, or something.

You ask her. Call her when you get back, she’ll tell you that that’s what she told me.

I believe – was it you that Cass spoke with?

LT. EARL DEEMER: No, I didn’t talk to her.

WILLIAM DOYLE: But you’re familiar with the detectives that when out to talk to her.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Yeah, I’ve uh, frankly never talked to Cass at all.

WILLIAM DOYLE: The uh, everybody in California seems to a degree in spy-manship. Everybody that uh – a lot of those people – a lot, a lot – that was one (unintelligible). Within super – within the confines of the social scene, that, that, that I was socializing in (unintelligible) out of the country.

Wojciech uh – Wojciech led a truly social life. He had no – the fact that Wojciech that’s even a drug dealer is as alien as the thought of me homesteading on the moon; he – first of all he had great difficulty speaking English. He so far out of touch, with that kind of thing. That he couldn’t have sold any drugs and he wouldn’t – I don’t believe he really knew where to go to buy any. In fact it’s a mystery to me who was his connection. And I can tell you right now, it wasn’t me.

Because we wouldn’t have any smoke at Cass’ house; because Owen was there. Cass has been just divorced, and shh – no trouble.

And you could, they – anybody at anything could walk over there to 7708 Woodrow Wilson Drive and tear it top to bottom. There’s never any drugs there. I know this uh – I guess you’ve heard. I’ve uh – Cass used to – when Pic was around, there were drugs around. I put a stop to that. That’s the truth. I really did.

LT. EARL DEEMER: When did you say was the last time you saw Pic?

WILLIAM DOYLE: Last time I saw Pic was seven months ago.

Pic and Wojciech were close.

Uh, Pic and I were close. But finally I couldn’t like Pic anymore.

Wojciech tried to help. Wojciech was not a bad fellow. Everybody that represents Wojciech as being a bad fellow, has something to gain, or something to hide, is doing that.

Wojciech was really motivated by the highest things. Wojciech wasn’t strung out, when I saw him last, or anytime through the time that I saw him; he really wasn’t.

Pic was, in bad shape. Wojciech took him in, gave him a home, and cleaned him up. It’s most difficult to put up with people when they’re kicking.

It’s hard for a fellow to put up with his girl.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Yeah, did you and Pic have any uh, beef with John Phillips over Michelle?

WILLIAM DOYLE: Michelle was a cobra. I’ve never had anything to do with Michelle. I’ve never kissed Michelle. I’ve never held her hand, nor would I.

Michelle Phillips is a (unintelligible) lady. I have no interest in the Phillips.

I know John Phillips to be a bragger. I know John Phillips to be the father figure to the Mamas and the Papas. And I know when Cass had her troubles last (unintelligible) I heard John Phillips tell some people that Cass was strung up on drugs which is patently false.

Dave Victorson, at Caesars Palace wouldn’t have an entertainer in there that was strung out on drugs. Do you understand?

I mean, he really wouldn’t.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Mm Hmm.

WILLIAM DOYLE: Cass’ struggles leaving – John Phillips came in and uh, then said, “See. I told you couldn’t make it on your own, etc., etc.”

I told him to uh, to shut up. Michelle said something, I told her to shut up. He jumped up and gave me a push.

(unintelligible) was in the room at the time – who was Cass’ musical arranger – assisted John out the door. That’s exactly what happen that time.

I’ve been to, John Phillips’ house on more than ten occasions, always with Cass. I’ve never had any dealings with John Phillips concerning his wife. I, I couldn’t be less interested. I know that John Phillips used to settle all his arguments with Cass by hitting her. When I came around, that ended.

I told John Phillips if he had anybody to hit, he could hit me.

I’m not bitter about John Phillips. I do however know about – what I’ve been told, from people in California, that John Phillips has, has laid the blame squarely at my feet. And I would (unintelligible) enter in reality. For what I’ve read in the paper. I believe, that if you go to John Phillips, with this machine and ask him to repeat all the testimony that he’s given to you – and to, and to uh, and to Polanski – that you’ll end up arresting him for mischief.

Or have the grounds to at least.

‘Cause John, John would believe – have you been to John’s house?

LT. EARL DEEMER: No.

WILLIAM DOYLE: He lives in a very expensive house; which he earned.

I believe that basically he’s a fine guy.

LT. EARL DEEMER: What’s he doing? Arranging or what?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I don’t know what he’s doing. I know that his overhead is enormous and the residuals from the Mamas and the Papas are off very badly. And I know he’s been, heading – I know his financial situation is not quite what he’d like it to be.

I believe he did all that with (unintelligible) with a uh, Monterey Pop Festival thing; that’s hearsay.

All I know that he’s desperate to make any kind of fame. Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones was found dead. John and Michelle wanted to have a big wake at their house. Anybody that knew Brian, was aghast. And they were called up by a number of people and told not to do that, that it won’t look well.

No one (unintelligible) I mean no one of the people uh,

John would use anything, and has, and will use anything to, to aggrandize himself, or to secure for himself a position in the Hollywood community, because he is attempting – and it’s a difficult thing to make the transition from a rock and roller, to a regular of the – to a regular of the Hollywood establishment. That’s a difficult task for a man to do, it’s highly competitive. And I believe he’s, uh – I believe his uh, his effort was uh, was uh, not in the interest of, of, of assisting Police with the crime. But more of in the interest of endearing himself to the, to the bereaved.

LT. EARL DEEMER: If we could stop for uh, cup of coffee, I want to call uh, McGann, and uh, see if there’s anything else that uh, wants to be uh –

William “Billy” Doyle interviewed by LAPD Lt. Earl Deemer 8/30/69 – Part One

Monday, July 1st, 2013

From the First Tate Homicide Progress Report*

William J. Doyle, Toronto, Canada, No. FPS 230 203-A, male Caucasian, 27, 5-8, 180, brown hair and brown eyes. This suspect has one arrest for Uttering Prescription for Narcotic Drug, two charges. Disposition indicates that he was sentenced to 12 months, case suspended, case appealed. The appeal was allowed, the conviction was squashed and the verdict of acquittal entered. Doyle is a native of Toronto, Canada and a user and smuggler of drugs to the United States.

William Doyle and Tom Harrigan came to Los Angeles in January of 1969, from Toronto, Canada. Doyle arrived first via commercial airline, arriving with an estimated two pounds of cocaine. After his arrival, he took up residence at Cass Elliot’s, 7708 Woodrow Wilson Drive, Los Angeles. Doyle and Elliot, had met while Elliot was making a film in Toronto, Canada, Doyle’s and Harrigan’s hometown. When Doyle arrived, it was obvious to Elliot that he was high on drugs and when he produced the two pounds of cocaine, Elliot told him he would have to leave. It was at this time that Harrigan arrived and the two of them took up residence at 1459 North Rings Road, Los Angeles. From this location, Doyle and Harrigan began to solicit and make friends among various persons in the movie industry. They did this in order to make contacts for the sale of the smuggled cocaine.

Harrigan and Doyle, after moving to Kings Road, sold at least $6,000 worth of cocaine during their first month.

Terrance Cooksley, an 18-year-old houseboy at the Kings Road address remained high for at least the month of February on cocaine supplied by Harrigan and Doyle. Sometime in March, he stole the $6,000 that Doyle and Harrigan had made. He frequented miscellaneous discotheques in the Los Angeles area and spent the money freely or gave it away in the form of large tips to various waiters. Doyle and Harrigan followed him to Stockton, California where they knocked him around and threatened him. They told him to keep his mouth shut and left Cooksley returned to Los Angeles, and in mid March, Doyle and Harrigan took Cooksley, bodily, from the Whiskey-A-Go Go. They rode around in the Hollywood hills, with Harrigan driving. Doyle was in the back seat beating Cooksley with a hammer handle. Harrigan stated it appeared that Cooksley liked the beating and, therefore, they stopped. A crime report was taken; however, Cooksley gave misleading statements and information and there was no prosecution. He did describe Harrigan and Doyle to his father as vicious persons and probably hired killers.

****

In mid March of this year, the Polanskis had a large catered party which included over 100 invited guests. The persons invited included actors, actresses, film directors and producers, business agents for the above-described people, and the Polanskis’ attorneys. Most of the people invited came to the party along with several people who were uninvited. The list of uninvited guests included William Doyle, Thomas Harrigan and Harrison Pickens Dawson. They came to the party accompanied by an invited guest, Ben Carruthers and an unidentified male.

During the party, a verbal altercation ensued involving William Tennant, Roman Polanski’s business agent, and William Doyle. Doyle apparently stepped on Tennant’s foot during this altercation. Dawson and Harrigan joined in the verbal altercation, siding with Doyle. Roman Polanski became very irritated and ordered Doyle, Harrigan and Dawson ejected from the party. Ben Carruthers and the unidentified male that had accompanied him to the party escorted the three men from the property.

****

Doyle and Harrigan became quite friendly with [Wojciech] Frykowski and [Abigail] Folger. This was mainly due to the fact that Frykowski was interested in the known drugs on the market, in addition to future synthetic drugs that were being made in eastern Canada. Doyle and Harrigan told Frykowski that they would obtain the new synthetic drug, MDA, from Canada and allow him to be one of the first to try it. This conversation or agreement apparently took place sometime in the early part of July, 1969, at the Polanski home.

[Witold] Kaczanowski was present at the Polanski home in the early part of July and overheard Doyle and Harrigan tell Frykowski they were going to get him the drug known as MDA. Kaczanowski did not see Doyle and Harrigan after this meeting.

In mid July, Doyle left for Jamaica with Charles Tacot to make an underground film about the effects of marijuana. Harrigan made a trip to Toronto, Canada and brought back a supply of MDA and possibly other drugs via commercial airlines. It is known that he supplied at least a portion of this MDA to Frykowski. It is possible that Frykowski was given this drug by some other emissary two or three days prior to the murder.

* Portions of this police report have been rearranged for chronological purposes.

SATURDAY, AUGUST 30, 1969, TORONTO, CANADA

LT. EARL DEEMER: It’s 11:50 and this is William – what’s your middle, uh —

WILLIAM DOYLE: Joseph George.

LT. EARL DEEMER: William Joseph George

Well, suppose you can give me a little run down just how you became uh – so when you came – first came to Los Angeles.

WILLIAM DOYLE: I believe I first – to the best of my recollection, I first uh. I first came to Los Angeles two years ago.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Two years ago.

And, uh, you stayed up until – did you stay or were you back and forth?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I was back and forth between, Los Angeles and Canada and other places.

LT. EARL DEEMER: And uh, prior to this occurrence, when was the last time you were in Los Angeles? When did you leave Los Angeles?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I believe – I’m trying to recall the exact day – I believe I arrived in Jamaica on the uh, 15th of July.

LT. EARL DEEMER: 15th, so you left with Charles?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I don’t know the dates. And of course, I wasn’t expecting him, but I can find out the dates; ’cause I kept the airline tickets.

LT. EARL DEEMER: And, when did you leave Jamaica?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I left Jamaica.

Excuse me Mr. Deemer, do you remember the day that I came in?

LT. EARL DEEMER: Well you told me uh —

WILLIAM DOYLE: You met me at the airport

LT. EARL DEEMER: — (unintelligible) the day coming back. Uh

I have to look at something.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Ok, I guess you caught my name. It’s Lieutenant Deemer from Los Angeles Police Department.

When you leave – I talked to Charles about this – when you leave Jamaica, what is required, that you uh, pay two dollars or something like that?

WILLIAM DOYLE: When you go to Jamaica they give you – Canadians, Neither Canadians or Americans need a passport to enter Jamaica. When you enter Jamaica they give you a slip. Akin to a visa slip. They take a two dollar – a two dollar and fifty cents head tax, tourist tax. (unintelligible) and keep this with you at all times and turn it in when you leave the island, you get. And you pay two dollars and fifty cents and they stamp it, and turn it into the customs agent as your leaving the island.

LT. EARL DEEMER: And you, uh, originally went down there with Charles to uh, do some work on this?

WILLIAM DOYLE: To collaborate on a film.

LT. EARL DEEMER: ah uh.

Were you in the acting aspect or the, producing, writing or?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I was giving Charles my – he was making a film on the socialogical impact of drugs and culture today, particularly how it deals with the young people. I was with him. He was asking me my opinion of what I’ve saw, what I’ve seen in Hollywood; or wherever I have been. And what my uh – getting some impressions from me, as to, pertinent to the nature of the film.

LT. EARL DEEMER: That was the 18th of the – that you returned from uh, Jamaica. (unintelligible)

WILLIAM DOYLE: That was the day I left then.

LT. EARL DEEMER: And you came directly to, uh?

WILLIAM DOYLE: Non-stop.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Where did you first hear about this, uh?

WILLIAM DOYLE: Learned about it on Saturday at noon from a news broadcast. And the records will show that the telephone lines in the north shore of Jamaica were out that day. And uh, that evening I got through to California and I instructed Cass – told me what happened and I instructed her to call the officers that had been to see her. I believe she did that immediately. And uh, from that time on the Los Angeles Police Department was appraised of my whereabouts, my address and my phone number. Three days after that I read in the paper I was wanted for murder; or in connection with the murder.

I was very nervous. I couldn’t understand it.

LT. EARL DEEMER: And uh, was there anyone else in the party when you left to Jamaica, besides you and Charles.

WILLIAM DOYLE: Charles and I were together

LT. EARL DEEMER: Were there a couple of girls in the uh, group?

WILLIAM DOYLE: Yes there were.

They weren’t – they, they didn’t come when Charles and I flew in from – Los Ang- the United States. Both girls were Jamaica nationalists who are, residents of Canada, under working permits who came down to stay with us down there; we had a lovely home; and there were servants there, and a housekeeper, and a maid, and a gardener who were all living in the house.

LT. EARL DEEMER: They’re still there?

WILLIAM DOYLE: They’re there all year round.

LT. EARL DEEMER: They live there?

WILLIAM DOYLE: They live there full time.

LT. EARL DEEMER: You remember – you remember their names?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I do. The housekeeper’s name is Ruth. The maid’s name, is Lesrine. And the gardener is Lesrine’s brother. And his name is Guy.

They perform such functions as, serving meals; making – keeping the house tidy. In other words they were in the house actually living with us. They weren’t out tucked away somewhere. They were, waiting for me.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Now, how long has it been since you uh, met Tom Harrigan?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I do not know when I didn’t know Tom Harrigan.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Well, How long has it been since you’ve seen him? Or talked to him?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I haven’t talked to Tom Harrigan since uh, at least a month before I went to Jamaica.

He dropped up to the house – to Cass’ – I was with him.

About a month before I went to Jamaica, I saw him briefly.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Was uh, he in business with you down in Jamaica at one time? Or are you —

WILLIAM DOYLE: Never in Jamaica in business with me. That was here. Tom worked for my father. Tom has never been in business.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Sort of a salesman?

WILLIAM DOYLE: He was a salesman. And he worked for a subsidiary of the (unintelligible) Company.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Was it a telephonic type thing.

WILLIAM DOYLE: Yes.

LT. EARL DEEMER: There’s a few names I want to ask you about, uh —

WILLIAM DOYLE: Alright.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Did they, uh – of course you know Tacot, uh. How do you pronounce this last name?

WILLIAM DOYLE: Tac-oh.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Tac-oh.

WILLIAM DOYLE: Yeah.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Uh, you’ve know Harrigan all your life.

WILLIAM DOYLE: Yes.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Pretty much raised together. How about uh, Deturo?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I met John with Tom. I met him here in Toronto, once. Next time when I met John – I did not know John. I met John – I shouldn’t, I shouldn’t make definite statements like that, excuse me.

LT. EARL DEEMER: To the best of your recollection, is all we ask.

WILLIAM DOYLE: Uh, I met him up in (unintelligible). Uh, I met John more than once up in Toronto. I never knew him. I knew him by sight. Uh, he came to – he showed up in Los Angeles. He seemed to know where to find Tommy. That’s how I met him.

LT. EARL DEEMER: What was your impression of Deturo?

Was he uh – personality wise? How would you feel about John?

Strike you as uh —

WILLIAM DOYLE: He strikes me as uh, what I would uh, call a stand up fellow.

I got John as uh – much more together than a lot of young people I see today. His hair has never been long or over his shoulders; as mine, extends over my ears a bit. He’s not a hippy. He uh, I understand he has a girlfriend, that he’s had for sometime. I, believe uh, he loves kids.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Do you know what he does for a living?

WILLIAM DOYLE: Don’t have the faintest idea.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Ever seen him work?

WILLIAM DOYLE: Never. I don’t – I never, I – as I’ve said I’ve met the man two or three times, and socially. And when I say socially, I mean I don’t know any other way to describe it. I ran into him with people I know. He’s never been in any place that I’ve ever lived, or frequented. And I don’t believe he drinks. If he does, he drinks moderately, because I’ve never seen him in a bar.

LT. EARL DEEMER: How about a man by the name of Hatami?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I’ve heard the name. I believe I’ve met him while at Jay Sebring’s. I believe uh, we’ve shaken hands and said hello. To my knowledge, I’ve never had a conversation with that man.

LT. EARL DEEMER: You uh, ever met Polanski?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I met Roman, on two occasions.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Where was that?

WILLIAM DOYLE: One night at a housewarming party he had.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Up at the Woodstock address – or the uh —

WILLIAM DOYLE: Cielo Drive —

LT. EARL DEEMER: — Cielo Drive?

WILLIAM DOYLE: — Yes. And uh, somewhere else, I can’t recall but it was social – in Hollywood.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Were you uh, familiar with, Sharon – Tate?

WILLIAM DOYLE: Yes, I met Sharon.

LT. EARL DEEMER: This was during, uh?

WILLIAM DOYLE: This was early.

Sharon’s a lovely girl. Sharon did not take drugs. Sharon never took drugs, to my knowledge. I never saw Sharon high, ever. And I’m the kind of fellow that notices.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Did she drink, that you’d see?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I never saw her drink.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Uh, how about Debra, Tate?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I can’t recall Debra…yes, I saw Debra Tate once. I went to the Cielo Drive residence again. Wojciech was taking pictures of Pic, for Pic’s composite. Pic at that time, was thinking that he had a chance, to audition (unintelligible) – to read for a part in a film. I’d tell you the name of the producer but I don’t know. I believe Cass may be able to help you there. And uh, and uh Sharon’s sister was there.

LT. EARL DEEMER: When was the last time you talked to Cass?

WILLIAM DOYLE: Four or five days ago.

LT. EARL DEEMER: She still worked up about this?

WILLIAM DOYLE: She’s hysterical.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Mm Hmm. I understand she has uh, I little bit of an emotional problem. Have you ever noticed it?

WILLIAM DOYLE: No.

I mean uh, once again I’ve become short with myself and you, and I apologize for being short with you. I can’t say no so quickly. Everyone I know has emotional problems. I particularly have ones I’m very familiar with. I think Cass is a lovely girl.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Have you ever seen Cass use narcotics?

I already know the answer to it, just uh —

WILLIAM DOYLE: Yes I have.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Ok.

WILLIAM DOYLE: May I ask you something?

LT. EARL DEEMER: Yes.

WILLIAM DOYLE: Is any of my testimony, uh – will my testimony concern whether I was into that.

LT. EARL DEEMER: No. (unintelligible) —

WILLIAM DOYLE: I have nothing – nothing to hide protect or hide, but I don’t want to cause anybody any more undo pain. This secondary investigation has caused a lot of people, a lot of pain, because a lot of people feel that they’re guilty or they have something to hide about something, and go through enormous emotional wringers. This is what Cass is hysterical about.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Well, of course —

WILLIAM DOYLE: I don’t want to hurt her but I want to help you with everything I can.

LT. EARL DEEMER: — in this background, we are running into all this drug business. Now, whether if drugs actually had anything to do with the killing, we’ll see. And uh —

WILLIAM DOYLE: I tell you everything I know and you put the picture together because I can’t, I don’t have any of the, any of the – you people obviously have a big puzzle you’re trying to fit together and I’ll just tell you want I can.

LT. EARL DEEMER: We don’t have any interest in drugs per se. That’s been entirely separate from it – for instance, Harrigan told us a great deal about drugs and we gave him a free ride. We’re not really investigating anything that has to do with drugs; only has it has interest in this case.

WILLIAM DOYLE: Can you give me an idea of what Harrigans told you?

LT. EARL DEEMER: Well, hes indicated your uh, part in this to some extent. But again, we told Harrigan that we weren’t interested in —

WILLIAM DOYLE: My part in this?

LT. EARL DEEMER: Well, as far as your part in the drugs. Your use of drugs and you being at these parties, and taking part in it. And of course I know (unintelligible)

WILLIAM DOYLE: I’m not denying, I’m just asking.

LT. EARL DEEMER: All these names dropped out, and so one thing leads to another, to the extent that we are talking to all kinds of people.

WILLIAM DOYLE: I only asked you because Cass has a career and uh, I wouldn’t want to hurt anybody, or cause any more grief to anyone then that’s already been caused by this whole thing.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Well uh, if we tried to uh, publish the names of everybody that used drugs in Hollywood uh, you know it would take up a telephone book. We’re not interested in that, frankly.

Uh, a couple more names here – how about a Rinehart, Billy Rinehart?

WILLIAM DOYLE: Yes, I know Billy Rinehart.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Ok, do you happen to know where he is now?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I do not.

LT. EARL DEEMER: When was the last time you saw him?

WILLIAM DOYLE: Last time I saw Bill Rinehart he was uh, at Cass’ house. They were talking about doing uh, uh, recording a song; he had written a couple of songs and he was playing them for Cass. But I saw William often, because he came over to the house. A lot of younger musicians, always – Cass’, a lot of people always came to visit Cass.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Is that Billy Rinehart?

WILLIAM DOYLE: That is not.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Is that someone you recognize?

WILLIAM DOYLE: Real light, I can’t tell you. It looks familiar but I don’t know. No, I’d have to say I’ve never seen this person before. But I can’t tell you for sure, it looks very familiar and it’s a very odd angle.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Yeah, it’s taken from down the steps there.

WILLIAM DOYLE: It is a very close likeness to me.

LT. EARL DEEMER: (unintelligible).

WILLIAM DOYLE: Neither of them are me.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Ok, you don’t know this person?

WILLIAM DOYLE: Interesting. Very interesting. Almost reminds me of the company store. Are these two people the same people?

LT. EARL DEEMER: Well, that’s, I think so, yes. But I couldn’t say that definitely.

WILLIAM DOYLE: Well, I can tell you how I know they’re not me. If you blow both of these pictures up and look at the bottom earlobe you’ll notice mine is not attached. His ear – there are two kinds of ears.

LT. EARL DEEMER: He’s got his hair styled in a that fashion.

WILLIAM DOYLE: I’ve had my hair over my ears, but it never looked like that. My hair is naturally like it is here. His ear is going directly to his cheek like this, you’ll notice. Mine don’t.

This one, I’ve seen.

LT. EARL DEEMER: But you don’t know —

WILLIAM DOYLE: No.

LT. EARL DEEMER: — a name? Ok, that’s uh, Parker – Parker, the uh, karate —

WILLIAM DOYLE: I know him.

LT. EARL DEEMER: — uh, Sebring.

Did you know Pic —

WILLIAM DOYLE: Yup.

LT. EARL DEEMER: — when he was uh, dressed like that?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I did.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Were you um, fixing yourself like this when uh, when you knew him?

WILLIAM DOYLE: All the time.

LT. EARL DEEMER: Well uh, You don’t know where Rinehart lives in L.A.?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I do not. I believe he lives with his family.

As far as (unintelligible) he’s in the beverage business. He also is often found with the Gemini Twins; two girls who do recording, like the Blossoms.

LT. EARL DEEMER: How about a Randy Greenwell?

WILLIAM DOYLE: I know a Randy, but I don’t know a last name. He has a wife that bought him a bentley. Same man? Red hair? Works in a beauty salon? I know him.

Audio Archives: Manson & Hypnotism

Saturday, April 6th, 2013

Apr. 8 – For this installment of the Audio Archives series, we will listen in on conversations with a pair of doctors regarding the power of hypnosis. This tape was not marked so I don’t know the names of the doctors, the interviewer or whether he is from LAPD or the District Attorney’s office. The tape was also not dated, but the conversation seems to indicate it took place in December of 1969, shortly after the indictments. At that time, Susan Atkins’ attorney Richard Caballero was telling the press that Susan was among several followers who were under Charles Manson’s “hypnotic spell.”