Leslie Van Houten Recommended For Parole For Third Time

Wednesday, January 30th, 2019

Jan. 30 – Leslie Van Houten was found suitable for parole at a hearing held today at the California Institute for Women in Corona, California. This was Van Houten’s third parole suitability recommendation.

Van Houten was sentenced to death in 1971 for her part in the August 10, 1969 murder deaths of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca. The following year, Van Houten saw her sentence commuted to life after the California supreme court outlawed the death penalty, stating it was unconstitutional. In 1976, an appeals court ruled Van Houten was denied a fair trial because her attorney, Ronald Hughes, disappeared during the trial.

Van Houten was retried in 1977, resulting in a hung jury. She was retried the following year and that time, convicted and sentenced to seven years to life. Because of time served on her original sentence, Van Houten was already eligible for parole when she returned to prison in August of 1978.

She has been denied parole 19 times since becoming eligible for parole in 1978. She was recommended for parole for the first time in April of 2016. On July 22, 2016, then Governor Jerry Brown vetoed the decision, stating, “I have considered the evidence in the record that is relevant to whether Van Houten is currently dangerous. When considered as a whole, I find the evidence shows that she currently poses an unreasonable danger to society if released from prison.”

She was recommended for parole a second time in September of 2017. Once again, Brown overturned the decision citing the heinousness of the commitment offense.

In January of last year, Van Houten’s attorney, Richard Pfeiffer, filed a writ of Habeas Corpus challenging Brown’s reversal, arguing the decision relied on isolated negative factors to support the conclusion that Van Houten posed an unreasonable risk if released. That June, Brown’s reversal was upheld by the Superior Court.

“The Governor met all due process requirements, and considered all relevant statutory factors tending to show suitability, including positive psychological reports,” wrote Judge William Ryan. “This court is not entitled to reweigh the evidence before the Governor; rather it is tasked with determining whether the record contains some evidence in support of the Governor’s decision. This court finds that it does, and that there is a rational nexus between the evidence in the record and the Governor’s determination of [Van Houten’s] current dangerousness.”

Pfeiffer challenged the ruling in California’s 2nd District Court of Appeal, who have yet to rule on it.

Today’s decision will undergo a 120-day review by the Board of Parole Hearings. Then it will be reviewed by Governor Gavin Newsom, who will have until June 29th to either confirm, reverse or modify the parole grant.

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135 Responses to Leslie Van Houten Recommended For Parole For Third Time

  1. G.W says:

    Newsom is going to be confronted with a major quandary . He is all about reform and liberal ethics, so I think he will grant.

  2. Cybele Moon says:

    She remains a rather pathetic figure after all is said and done having spent at least the majority and most productive part of her life behind bars- deservedly so in my opinion. It would be different if she was getting out at 40 or 50. It will be what it is whatever is ultimately decided by left or right. Whatever education she was able to receive in jail it remains a life wasted and a horrifying act and notorious crime that will never be forgotten whether she is in or outside of prison. I can’t imagine what it will be like for her being so reviled by what appears except for her supporter, to be the majority of people. We all reap what we sow.

  3. paul says:

    Leslie has sufficient plans for parole, the board wouldn’t of granted her release if she didn’t. She will be fine on the outside and has numerous support outlets.

  4. Roger Wayne says:

    I wish she could be freed but I honestly don’t see politics ever not being a part of this.

  5. Cybele Moon says:

    Columbo, you are so wrong. She can never pay for what she did nor can any of them not unless the dead get back their lives. This good and sweet person! Funny their soft voices sent chills down my spine. If the law sees fit to free them so be it but I’m not sorry for her time served at all. You know I think we could all blame our askew thinking on our youth but wait, most of us didn’t follow a vicious criminal ( who didn’t hide that side of himself from them) and think he was Christ or commit vicious murder.

    Paul, she will be on a meager pension like others of her age unless of course she has a fund set up by supporters like you instead of giving to causes like feeding the children, etc etc lol. She will be facing the challenges of aging after having spent her youth and middle age in prison. Don’t tell me she will be just fine. that is ridiculous. None of us are fine and someone like her I’m sure will find it even harder living with what she has on her soul. She has a few supporters but there are probably more who revile her and the others.

  6. Kelli Roberts says:

    Let her free! She’s too old now to pose a threat to society! And even if she was capable I don’t think she would.

  7. Paul says:

    You got it spot on Columbo, she’s served her time.

  8. Paul says:

    Cybele don’t preach on something you obviously don’t know anything about, Leslie has strong parole plans and the board agrees. She has had job offers and been offered accommodation. Her family and friends have all offered any support they can give her from money to transport. She will be fine on the outside so please do research this more before you reply.

  9. Christy says:

    Liberal puppet Colombo?

    Ok, now that I’ve stopped laughing since my sides are hurting I’ve never heard of someone described as a liberal puppet for denying parole. It’s usually the conservatives in this state who love the “lock em up and throw away the key” mentality. Some of them have suggested Leslie and rest get a retroactive death penalty.

  10. Cybele Moon says:

    Paul, as well as you can be at age 70 and having been in prison all your life. Most people her age have retired but I suppose she will continue to live in a somewhat structured environment from what you are saying and do the the type of thing she had been doing. Anyway that is her life and the consequences of her crimes. I don’t wish her ill. I’m sure you’re glad of her release. She still has to wait I think another 120-150 days for the governor unless her lawyer gets her that re-sentencing. I just hope she fades into anonymity and isn’t made into a celebrity because. By the way all the best in the New Year Paul.

    Columbo I have to agree about the law – though I think a life sentencing should be just that for certain crimes. and I do think that such a bright and lovely young girl threw away her life which is sad. that said I disagree about her getting the wrong sentence. I think there was something serious missing in all of them including Leslie (who was only on board less than a year before she eagerly went along on the murder spree) mentally and morally speaking to even begin to get involved with such an anti social and criminal element who passed himself off as a Messiah. Lots of people followed crazy gurus and did lots of drugs in the sixties/seventies but would have drawn a line at that horror. Getting out at 70 is pretty harsh but I know her supporters are glad if she gets out at all.

  11. Donna says:

    I hope the new governor supports her parole, and puts an end to the Manson myth. Leslie has more than paid for her part in the crime.

  12. Christy says:

    Sigh, there was no life without parole when the California Supreme Court overturned the death penalty. Therefore I think Leslie’s ability to not have her parole overturned should be judged by others on death row at that time not people who got life with a possibity of parole after that.

    I honestly don’t think Leslie is any sort of threat personally. But I also think if she’s allowed parole so should every other Manson follower in prison. They were all young and lsd addled. And I will note Leslie went along on the second night after she well knew about the previous night’s slaughter. She also knew about what happened to Gary Hinman. AND unlike most of his followers she could have left more easily than many since her family home wasn’t that far away.

  13. Christy says:

    And, I’ve said it before why wasn’t Manson’s most ardent supporter ever tapped for these missions? I’m talking about Lynette, Squeaky, Fromme. Because she probably couldn’t be trusted to kill anyone. Leslie could and Leslie already had been violent towards her sister. Physically violent. So this isn’t just drug addled crap she already had it in her personality.

    Does this mean she shouldn’t get parole? No but trying to smoothe over what she did irritates me.

  14. Lee says:

    I don’t agree that LVH should be released. That’s all I have to say about that.

  15. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    If there is any justice that bitch will get what she gave to the LaBianca’s. Ten fold.

  16. Cybele Moon says:

    Donna and all those who feel that ‘sweet and good” Leslie has paid for her crime. Justice is only a concept- at one time it was an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life. Leslie and the others got lucky when their death sentences were overturned as unconstitutional ( briefly).
    Donna,the Manson myth was no myth. It’s no urban legend, it actually happened. It was horrific and monstrous and ruined so many people’s lives; a few of whom died of broken hearts after the fact. Yes, Leslie may get out but let’s not call that justice. I don’t feel sorry for the time she has had to serve. That crime was far reaching and should not be forgotten.

  17. Stevie says:

    Unfortunately for Miss Van Houten, whether she deserves to be paroled or not, will never be. Her notoriety alone, upon her release, would cause such a public outcry, the State of California would never be able to handle it. (Of course, that’s not the official reason they would ever give.) No government entity wants that kind of publicity. And that’s just the way it is.

  18. Fred Bloggs says:

    Cybele Moon says:
    Justice is only a concept- at one time it was an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life

    There’s a real irony to that. “Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life, hand for hand, foot for foot” is a biblical concept, recorded as coming from God that has in mind the limitation of vengeance and punishment and is rooted in events like the story of Joseph’s brothers whose sister was raped by a guy who then fell in love with her and wanted to marry her. Everyone agreed but later, 2 of the brothers {and obviously their men} went and wiped out every guy in the clan of the guy that had committed the rape and then they enslaved all the women and children ~ hardly just. “Eye for eye” was saying ‘have done to you what you did and no more.’ So it limits vengeance. But this is partly why I note the irony ~ it’s a stepping stone on the road to turning the other cheek {ie, not going for revenge} and forgiveness.

    Columbo says:
    There’s a very good reason some people are not held responsible for their actions if it is apparent that they were experiencing true mental incompetence or insanity at the time of the crime

    Well, it was determined at the time by psychiatrists that examined Leslie {and for that matter, Susan and Pat} that they were not nor had ever been insane. There’s a lot you say of great interest and some of it I agree with and some of it I don’t.

    She thought she was being chosen to do something special and momentous in history, just as people in the Bible were chosen. She didn’t really understand it, but (with the assistance of LSD) Charlie had her believing that whatever he said to do was DEFINITELY the thing to do, and the right thing to do. She believed it. Clearly, this was delusional thinking and as psychotic as it gets…and she felt honored to be a part of it. That’s how messed up she was, and that’s the reason she never deserved 40+ years of prison. She was mentally unable to determine right from wrong at the time of the crimes

    I think Leslie did understand Helter Skelter. There were certainly parts she hadn’t worked out by her own admission, but as much as it could be grasped, she did so. She articulated a lot of the framework to Marvin Part pretty lucidly and it fascinates me that Paul Watkins pretty much mirrored her understanding of it when he was speaking with Vincent Bugliosi, even though he’d had no contact with Leslie once she’d been arrested.
    Neither do I believe that she was unable to determine right from wrong at the time of the murders. She simply transplanted one for the other, pretty much the same way many of the counterculture did regarding drug use. The law and society at large deemed drugs as wrong ~ the counterculture did not. That didn’t mean people openly smoked, sniffed or injected dope in the streets. Those that indulged made no attempt to flout what they were doing in the face of the police and didn’t seek to get busted ~ but they didn’t see it as wrong. Leslie was no different.
    Yes, without a doubt, the conclusions she came to were drug assissted, in the same way that many of the conclusions Hendrix, the Stones, the Beatles, the Byrds etc reached were drug assisted. The Beatles would never have made “Magical Mystery Tour” without drugs, neither would the Monkees have made “Head.” Neither were rendered mentally incapable, yet one can’t deny there were quite a few delusions flying about in that period by people that were sane, if delusional.
    It’s not really a contradiction.

    it was brought about intentionally by Charles Manson and his endless supply of LSD

    I think LSD so blitzed Charles Manson’s head and being that the world was never the same for him after he had it. As with a number of people {John Lennon included} it gave him a Christ conflation. As Steve Turner once put it people moved by acid often didn’t know if they’d seen God or were God. Charlie took it one stage further by conflating himself with the Devil. Notable among acid users was the emergence of the LSD evangelist, a phenonmenon that occurred in both the UK and the USA at the same time. These people would spike/dose unwitting victims {that’s how Lennon and George Harrison, their wives and other musicians like Ronnie Lane were first introduced to acid} or make such a thing about acid that often peers crumbled under the pressure. That happened in the Beatles and the Stones. And nefariously, some people discovered that acid was a useful tool in drawing people in their direction. Charlie seems to have been of that ilk. He came across two types of acid head ~ those that had already been trippers before they met him and those he specifically turned on with the intent of taking them further out there. Either way, his charismatic persona was pretty overwhelming for either group, for different reasons.
    Those that overlook the impact of acid on the minds of the Family, whether they murdered or not, really need to lose their fear of understanding just what a powerful difference it made, while those that tend to blame it need to look down the other side of the mountain and understand that it didn’t create zombies or incompetents.
    It’s a hard to reach but ultimately understandable paradox.

  19. Donna says:

    Cybelle moon – Leslie is not responsible
    for what Manson and the other family members did. I will say it again…she has more than paid for her part in the crime.

  20. Jhonny says:

    To me – it’s a mathematical equation……

    Then:

    Manson + Drugs + Sheep Like Followers = Murder

    Now:

    Drugs + Sheep Like Followers = ?

  21. Christy says:

    Donna if you truly believe that then let’s release Tex Watson.

    Fred I’ve taken acid a few times. I was a kid in the 60s so by the time I tried it everyone had moved on to cocaine. But I never felt a need to murder anyone.

    I truly think Leslie already had a violent temper. And if she was so malleable that a few drugs and suggestions lead her to stab a person then she probably shouldn’t be let out, that just says she’ll follow anyone who catches her eye and pretend s/he’s some Svengali.

  22. ColScott says:

    Fred Bloggs ladies and gentlemen, the arrogance of ignorance

  23. Cybele Moon says:

    Donna, Let’s look at the bigger picture, Leslie was a part of the Manson Family – that is a given so therefore her connection to them cannot be easily erased and because of her and the others who held him as their god like leader. Manson was able to continue on in his evil plans. Leslie is responsible for the gruesome deaths of the Labianca’s in which she willingly took part. She can never pay back their lives or the loss to their families period. Jail time is only what we can do if there is no death penalty. She ruined her own life and if some of us don’t care to see her out walking free it’s not because of anything we did. But hey, Altemi Daema is in prison right now in Iran for nothing more than speaking out for woman’s rights. Now there’s a worthwhile petition for a woman who is a true political prisoner and victim of injustice.

  24. Cybele Moon says:

    Fred, another interesting point of view by you!

  25. Cybele Moon says:

    Oh boy, Columbo et al, Of course she deserved a life sentence as did they all. Her supporters of course will try to mitigate her participation, she was young, insane brainwashed, drug addled etc. They weren’t so drug addled or insane to not try to get rid of clothes and weapons and hide themselves . They weren’t insane enough to make that death pact and die either, as Charlie had often asked them to do. They sat and watched the news coverage and giggled. Yes, they weren’t normal but neither were they insane. Many people had drug addled brains in those days, many followed gurus, The Manson followers threw their lot in with an ex pimp, con man with a gift of the gab who was also violent ( very uncool at that time). Brainwashed? Who knows except that most brainwashed people in cults still don’t go out to viciously murder perfect strangers. These people had something twisted in them to begin and Charlie chose them as his elite team because of that. Not all his brainwashed followers would do it or would have wanted to do it. Quite frankly, out of prison or not, converted, educated, remorseful. etc I for one would never trust their thinking processes ever.

  26. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Playing every excuse card in the freakin’ book will never change the facts of her case.

    Not only did she know about the Tate murders the night before, she CONSPIRED with OTHERS (Manson Family for those who want to distance her giddy involvement) to commit the SAME offense the next night. That’s murder and conspiracy in the FIRST DEGREE times two. Another break for Lucky Lulu, reduced from death penalty to concurrent.

    Under Manson’s control my happy ass. Insane my happy ass. On drugs my happy ass. Every aspect of her involvement was voluntary. She was weeks away from turning 20 years old at the time of her decision to slaughter the LaBianca’s-NOW too young to know what she was doing and NOW too old to be a threat my happy ass.

    Talk about how long this butchering bitch has been in prison? She has had more litigation than any other Manson minion. I’ve posted her lengthy record of parole hearings, appeals, etc. Her motivation to help others in prison by mentoring is laughable. What the hell else is she going to do? Find another false prophet to follow? And since all THAT hasn’t worked in her quest for freedom, she now plays the remorse card.

    “I think most of what I do is out of guilt for what I’ve done,” Van Houten told the board.

    My. Happy. Ass.

  27. Donna says:

    It is ridiculous to compare what Leslie did to what Tex or the others did.

  28. Cybele Moon says:

    Donna your statements seem rather obtuse if you can’t figure out that it doesn’t matter whether she struck as many blows as her cohorts Tex and Pat (she did help tie the woman up and she did strike a few blows) In for a penny, in for a pound. She supported Manson and the other minions. She could have left, or refused before it all started. This sweet, gentle soul volunteered to go and her participation was part of these grisly murders. Her unwavering support of Manson and his criminal behaviours and violence made her party to all the murders. As the grandson of the LaBianca’s once said ” I wouldn’t want to see them walking free again in my neighbourhood. The last time they were here they killed my family!”

  29. paul says:

    Cybele “Her supporters of course will try to mitigate her participation” I’ve said this so many times to you before but as you still ignore it ill will say it again, we aren’t mitigating her crime but stating the facts that may or may not make a difference between Leslie and the other family members, stop trying to make out where making excuses for her, thought you had more sense than this.

  30. Cybele Moon says:

    Huh? read my previous comment why don’t you.
    she wasn’t as bad as Tex she was brainwashed? she was drug addled- oh she was so young- that’s what you are all saying! You aren’t mitigating her participation? If it wasn’t for people like her Manson would not have done what he did. that’s all I’m saying. She is not this sweet little misguided teenager. she’s a murderer plain and simple- as guilty as the rest. Nothing changes that.

  31. paul says:

    I read it and my comment doesn’t change, you’ve made this comment a lot in the past because we point out specific differences between Leslie and the rest of the family who acted those nights, and in your eyes were mitigating her crimes.

  32. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Damn straight Cybele.

  33. Cybele Moon says:

    PS I know you feel sorry for her- I get it. I don’t. Having known first hand what violent crime can do to a family. At any rate she is basically an old bag now who threw her young life and productive years away by a horrible act of violence. Whether she has a plan to live in a half way house and help counsel other inmates is really all she can do now and as you say be just fine. A stigma will always follow her among law abiding citizens I think unless she can change her name. May she fade into anonymity if possible. If she finds peace then she is fortunate. The legacy of pain and loss will still remain for victims of violent crime.

  34. paul says:

    That is not addressing my comment. You made a statement repeatedly about me and now your denying it and now your going on about how sorry I feel for her like she’s a victim. I know you get my stance, though appears to be lesser than I though and you made your point enough as well. Not wanting her out because of the crimes is fair enough but just finding any poor excuse to counter her parole or the people who agree with her parole is pathetic and a lot of the time contradicting their statements.

  35. Cybele Moon says:

    I’m sorry Paul, I just don’t understand what you are trying to say! that I”m accusing you of mitigating her circumstance?

    I don’t get it. Am I not allowed to say that on a discussion forum. You and others do say that she’s not as bad as Tex etc. and you don’t understand what I am saying either obviously. It’s not against you per se.
    Who knows what might have happened had they not been caught when they were. LVH made reference to the possibility of having to kill children! Yes to me it matters not whether she was as vicious as Tex. It was her support of that philosophy that condemns her totally in my book. I think they would have followed Manson to death like the Jonestown followers.

    To me anyone brainwashed, duped or not, who saw any sense in that vicious evil is forever suspect as to their thinking process and therefore dangerous, whether 10 years or 50 have gone by. She needs to stay in a structured environment outside the prison as well if she is freed.

  36. paul says:

    Cybele you contradicted yourself. A lot of our debate you made references to myself and people who support her parole are trying to mitigate her involvement like were making excuses for her when we are just stating the facts and the difference of Leslie’s case to Tex Watson. An example was that Tex Watson said Leslie was very reluctant to kill than himself an Pat, and that is an important statement in Leslie’s case

    I don’t think you really believe she will be a danger to society if she were to be paroled but if you do you definitely need to hold that bias for a moment and look at Leslie at herself now than who was in 1969. No violations in nearly 50 years and has only thrived behind bars, but people will try to make out she’s this danger in order to keep her in prison.

  37. Gorodish says:

    Regardless of what side you are on (the defenders of Leslie or the lynching party), the bottom line is, as always, about dollars and cents. Although California has less prisoners than it did 10 years ago, the cost of holding these people is skyrocketing, especially on the health care side. Three of these Manson murderers – Beausoleil, Van Houten, and Bruce Davis – fit the parole board criteria for release. The parole board all but called Beausoleil a liar and a snake, but recommended parole anyways. Van Houten is 69, Beausoleil 71, and Davis 76. The state cannot afford to run geriatric wards for these people. Like Ed Sanders once said, “deities in flying saucers probably wouldn’t get Tex Watson released”. And Krenwinkel’s not going anywhere either, for the same reason – the body count. But, like it or not, the others will get out, and soon.

  38. Cybele Moon says:

    gorodish you are probably correct although that doesn’t seem a good excuse to free people. Will they not be a burden on health system either way? At their ages they will also receive old age pensions and probably supplements as they did not contribute to the work force all these years in order to get a government work pension. Do you have that in the States? I know in Canada you will receive both Government pensions at 65. and people that have not had a pension from their jobs and make less than the average often get a subsidy or supplement to help them out. Health benefits are provided as well.

  39. Cybele Moon says:

    Paul, you are you say stating facts – fair enough but those facts are the reason you are supporting release for her – right? So mitigating circumstance as you see it. I just feel that regardless of that her participation makes her as guilty as the rest and her support of Manson and her embracing and defending his philosophy until it exploded in horror destroying so many people’s lives. Not contradicting, Just a different way of looking at it. Also as I said and continue to say, anyone who allowed themselves to be that taken into such an evil philosophy must have had something wrong with their thinking processes to begin. Charlie handpicked his team so he knew who could and couldn’t kill for him. I for one could never trust them again.

  40. Donna says:

    Cybele – it is not that serious. Your view is probably skewed because you had violence affect your family. You are carrying on like Leslie herself murdered someone in your family. Personally I don’t care whether Leslie is paroled or not. I was just making a comment.

  41. Fred Bloggs says:

    ColScott says:
    Fred Bloggs ladies and gentlemen, the arrogance of ignorance

    Do us a favour Scotty and point out specifically where ignorance was shown in what I said and then counter it with the good sense and knowledge that is implied by making such a statement. These silly soundbites of yours don’t say much in your favour and believe it or not, I’m keen to avoid readers thinking poorly of you.

    [Scotty & I are old sparring partners from the back end of beyond….]

    NoJusticeNoPeace says:
    Her motivation to help others in prison by mentoring is laughable

    Oh NJNP !
    While I may disagree with most of the things you’ve said, we’ve nonetheless had some spirited debates and they’ve been enjoyable and quite meaty.
    But that one pretty much killed it all off. Vincent Bugliosi, Stephen Kay, Debbie Tate and tons of Leslie’s detractors happily shared your view that she should remain jailbound forever and a day. They were also balanced enough and not afraid to acknowledge that she’s done good and useful things in prison and that includes helping other prisoners, even though they are of the opinion that the only way she should ever leave CIW is in a box or an urn.
    I really wish you’d not said that. You diminish your own place in the conversation, coming from such a place.

    Cybele Moon says:
    Of course she deserved a life sentence as did they all. Her supporters of course will try to mitigate her participation

    There are those that try to mitigate {alleviate, reduce, diminish, lessen, weaken, lighten, attenuate, take the edge off, allay, ease, assuage, palliate, cushion, damp, deaden, dull, appease, soothe, relieve, help, soften, temper, still, quell, quieten, quiet, tone down, blunt, dilute, moderate, modify, abate, lull, pacify, placate, mollify, sweeten, tranquillize, excuse} her participation, that’s true. I don’t think Paul is one of them. While there are things he’s said in other debates that I’ve not agreed with, he’s generally tried to explain Leslie within the murders and appeal to the what the law requires regarding parole.
    I do find it interesting that many people take the view that “I don’t want to hear any explanation” or that an explanation somehow equates to a mitigation. I wouldn’t mind betting that every human being alive in our everyday existence at some point approaches mitigation for our actions in some way at some point, without being aware of it half the time.
    I’ve come to see that by actually not being afraid to see what exists down the side of the hill that we don’t want to go, one sees a heck of a lot more. It doesn’t mean what one sees is pretty or even that one might be favourably disposed to the subject, person or persons in question.
    But it might. It’s certainly balanced in a rounded way.
    That someone like Leslie committed murder and Tex committed murder doesn’t mean they’re the same in every respect. That’s just naive and it does not really match our real world experience. That’s partly why the laws of many places take into account the different variables that make up each case, while having an overarching structure.

    To me anyone brainwashed, duped or not, who saw any sense in that vicious evil is forever suspect as to their thinking process and therefore dangerous, whether 10 years or 50 have gone by

    That just does not wash with real life.
    If a White person hated Black people 50 years ago or a Black African woman hated Aboriginal people 50 years ago or any number of permutations, are you saying that they could not see the error of their ways and change ?
    If an Austrian that happily fought for the Nazis during WW2 was gladly married to and a co~parent with someone Jewish 40 years later, would you honestly be waiting for the anti-Semitic meltdown that your concept implies must be therefore lurking ?
    The logical conclusion of what you say there is that no human being can change what they think [and the actions that follow], regardless.
    I can’t agree with that. This planet is stuffed to the gills with people who have earnestly thought one way and later on been disgusted, ashamed, embarrassed and regretful with what they once thought was right and good.
    I include myself in that bracket.

    I just hope she fades into anonymity and isn’t made into a celebrity

    I would hope that too but I suspect that’s unlikely to happen, at least initially. I don’t think it can happen because of the very thing we are participating in right now. Look at the strength of feeling on both sides in the 4 or 5 LVH related debates that have been on this site in the last year. People such as yourself and myself are interested. Even if she wanted anonymity the fact remains that she is a news story, she is a human interest story and with a 24 hour media being something that no one even thinks of questioning anymore, even if all the TLB related sites shut down, there are going to be journalists that will feed the appetite, whether artificially or genuinely there.

    Christy says:
    I’ve taken acid a few times. I was a kid in the 60s so by the time I tried it everyone had moved on to cocaine. But I never felt a need to murder anyone

    Granted. Did you ever feel the need to leap out of a window because you saw how it was possible to fly ? Did you ever see giant spiders crawlling all over you and speaking one of the Soviet languages or fields of grass that suddenly stretched up to the sky ? Did you ever look at streetlights and see them turn into vibrant throbbing colourful spacecraft, flying in a formation shape you couldn’t describe ? Did you ever regress to being a baby ? Did you see that everyone could love one another with such depth and beauty if only acid could be introduced into the water supplies of every city and town on the planet ?
    Well, lots did. I did acid a few times and I never felt any of those things. I felt other things. But just because I never ended up where others might have does not invalidate their thought process in getting there or make mine better or worse. People are different.
    Incidentally, no one here has been making the argument that if you take LSD you’ll turn into a murderer. I see nuance and paradox in life, not simple, predictable equations.

  42. Fred Bloggs says:

    Donna says:
    Personally I don’t care whether Leslie is paroled or not. I was just making a comment

    Sorry, but when you make comments like “I will say it again…she has more than paid for her part in the crime,” and “I hope the new governor supports her parole” I think you are almost duty bound to explain what you mean or at least back up what you say. At the moment, you’re just contradicting yourself and playing the game of “I have a right to make a comment,” which you don’t, really.

  43. Cybele Moon says:

    Fred, while I do agree that people can change I just could never be sure in this case. Was there some psychopathy at work here? This isn’t just a case of being prejudiced against certain people and changing one’s mind (which is often a learned behaviour) or not and as for Nazi’s it is strange how the ones who ended up running camps or as guards in prison camps were the most vicious of all. This is something that I think is part of someone’s psych or mental makeup – like a pedophile who really can’t change his spots. He may be able to control it with enough therapy but something could once again trigger the behaviour as they say. And there is a school of thought that suggests young children who show sociopathic tendencies can be redirected through intense therapy- but they have to start very young. The brain is an interesting and mysterious organ.

    Donna, I didn’t understand you- what is not so serious?

  44. Donna says:

    Not so serious because it really does not matter what you and I think in the end. I am a psychologist and I work in a prison
    From everything I can ascertain about Leslie, she is not evil and she is no longer a danger to society.

  45. Cybele Moon says:

    oh and I have another thought since I’m so hyped by this thread. I never thought I was a cruel person thirsting for revenge until I witnessed the grief of knowing that you will never see a loved one again or thinking of their last moments on this earth, of seeing perpetrators get light sentences. Leslie had it all, smarts, good looks, popularity, an upper middle class family who though divorced loved her- even after knowing what she did ( of course). She must have hurt them horribly by her choices and actions. Even her abortion which was not that unusual in the sixties I don’t feel can be used an excuse to end up as she did. There are many suffering people who have good morals in spite of circumstance. She must have had Christian morals at some point growing up. I guess I will never understand it and that’s why it makes me angry. It makes me angry that so many of her supporters put down the victim”s family members and call them phonies etc if they cry. It sickens me. I’m just being honest.

  46. Donna says:

    FRED…I have a right to make any comment I want and I am not “duty bound” to explain. You however have the right to disagree with my comments.

  47. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Fred ya just couldn’t help yourself, I know.

    But it is laughable LVH is a mentor. As I stated which you didn’t include, what the hell else is she to do?

    It benefits herself. With her chances of parole. Make no mistake about it. She could be a Nobel Laureate and it still would not change what she is…

    a murderer…a conspirator to murder with other Manson Minions. Let her out. I’d love to take bets on how long she lasts in the real world. There is always another Lulu out there that wants to make a name for themselves…15 minutes as was.

  48. Cybele Moon says:

    Donna I guess I got a bit confused when you referred to the Manson myth. It was no myth. It was evil and horrifying. His whole philosophy, his harem of pretty women and fawning sycophants living on a broken down ranch in the desert.
    I can’t imagine sitting down in the house you worked for to enjoy an evening at home and have a group of blood thirsty maniacs break in to murder you because you are one of the piggies. Mind boggling to say the least but no myth.
    Yes it’s very possible she will be released according to the current laws.
    “The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”. Omar Khayyam

  49. Donna says:

    No problem Cy…

  50. Pam says:

    I disagree with those who think they will be set free. Politicians act in their own self interest. No politician wants to be known for releasing a Manson killer. This would be a heavy weight around his neck, particularly if Newsom has political ambition beyond being governor
    Yes, it’s political, but I think prison is right where she should be for the rest of her life
    I stand with victims.Pam

  51. Pam says:

    The reality for LVH BD and Bobby is that politicians rarely act against their own self preservation and this is a huge hurdle for them to overcome
    I can’t imagine the fear and terror of listening to your love one being butchered while LVH is holding you down then stabbing you 16 times in the back

  52. Pam says:

    I disagree that there is mounting pressure to release her
    She has been granted parole since 2016 and where is she? When Brown denied her, what were the results? His decision was upheld by the courts, supported by the DA and there was no protests demanding her freedom. Newsom has nothing to gain and much to lose from having his name connected to a Manson killer. No, I think Newsom’s dwill be as easy as it was for Brown. She’s not going anywhere.

  53. Pam says:

    intended to say Newsom’s decision .

  54. Fred Bloggs says:

    Cybele Moon says:
    while I do agree that people can change I just could never be sure in this case

    I don’t have a problem with that because it’s not absolute. Having doubts or reservations about a murderer’s “changes” is neither unfair nor unreasonable. It’s human. And sometimes well founded and accurate. I also feel that it’s very different from the situation in which a paedophile might find themself in because there, we’re talking about drives that don’t just go, like a thought.
    As we’ve touched on many times, releasing someone that has murdered is always a risk. That’s one of the reasons I’ll often touch on Steve Grogan. In my opinion he was far worse and much scarier than LVH but since his release in 1985 has shown it is possible to move away from all of that milieu. But as I’ve said before, there are some murderers that really should be locked up for the rest of their days, for a combination of reasons.

    Donna says:
    I have a right to make any comment I want and I am not “duty bound” to explain. You however have the right to disagree with my comments

    I did actually say “almost” duty bound which is a way of saying “I think you need to put meat on those bones.”
    It’s hard to disagree with comments that are said with no context. I might disagree with you saying “all Greek children are lazy.” But if you make a blanket statement, you should at least tell us what you actually mean and support the statement. My old buddy ColScott used to have this interesting saying that people did not have a right to an opinion, but to an informed opinion.

    NoJusticeNoPeace says:
    Fred ya just couldn’t help yourself, I know

    You may be right. There again, maybe I was simply exercising my freedom to be moved by something someone said and my choice to say something about it.

    But it is laughable LVH is a mentor. As I stated which you didn’t include, what the hell else is she to do?

    Actually, she could have done lots of other things. She could have kept herself to herself and just behaved and gotten on with her sentence. Having come into prison with the attitude she had and having clung to it for a couple of years before the change began to sprout, she’d be in a good position to mentor people, particularly with having had to deal with guilt and the resulting eating disorder. Highlight and help them through the changes, so to speak.
    It’s laughable to someone that bottom line thinks of people in jail as being worth less than toilet paper. It’s not laughable to those that value people.

    It benefits herself. With her chances of parole. Make no mistake about it

    Oh, I don’t doubt that. As does not getting into trouble while in jail. As does getting a degree. As does showing herself to be trustworthy, at least as far as the eye can see. As does having viable parole plans, even though she’s coming up to being an old lady. I don’t think that mentoring other prisoners was just to benefit herself but that is without a doubt one of the net outcomes. But that’s not a bad thing.

  55. Fred Bloggs says:

    Pam says:
    I disagree that there is mounting pressure to release her
    She has been granted parole since 2016 and where is she? When Brown denied her, what were the results? His decision was upheld by the courts, supported by the DA and there was no protests demanding her freedom

    Not true Pam. It’s been in and out of the courts, Franklin hearings, Tex tape hearings, appeals etc. Somebody was protesting in high places. You regularly take to these pages to hammer anyone that you perceive to be a supporter.
    Interesting, that.
    But pressure is a funny thing. It often works in ways that aren’t visible and obvious. As Columbo points out, there comes a point where the answers that run counter to a parole board decision can’t be justified any longer. I know it’s not a great comparison, but the marijuana laws are similar. Think of all those people who, since it was made federally illegal in 1937 {even earlier in some states, like California} have been made criminals for possessing the stuff. Supplying the stuff. Smuggling the stuff. Think of all the literature that has been produced in support of keeping it illegal and criminal and all the families that were turned upside down and ripped apart because of it. All the people that ended up in jail, rubbing shoulders {and other body parts} with harder, more experienced inmates. People who had travel plans blitzed or lost or didn’t get jobs because of a conviction. Think of all the politicians that over their dead bodies would legalize weed. Look at how Bill Clinton could only say he ‘inhaled’ when saying he smoked would have caused a furore.
    Yet, campaigners kept on, despite even tougher laws at times. And what do we see now ? States {and countries} where it is legal.
    Some situations aren’t permanent and sometimes, one has to look at which way the wind is blowing.

  56. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    You’re damn skippy I could care less about murderers and their ‘rights’. Far as I’m concerned, they can all rot and get a toe tag parole. Don’t equate LVH’s crimes to others in prison. There is NO comparison; unless you want to play the Tex, Katie, Sadie stabbed, slashed, mutilated, horrified, tortured and butchered more than poor little Lulu game. That’s always a favorite around here.

    *insert eye roll*

    Oh, and Fred, the irony that you think I do not value human life while you are qualifying the crimes, prison life/possible parole of a two-time Manson Minion murderer is so exaggerated I’m surprised your keyboard didn’t lock up and auto delete that line of drivel.

    At least you’re entertaining.

  57. Cybele Moon says:

    NJNP You don’t mince words lol!!

  58. Pam says:

    Not true Fred. Yes, like most criminals, she has tremendous legal rights, the right to constantly appeal, right to another sentence based on her age, but what has she gained? For every parole release, she takes one step forward and the governor kicks her two steps backwards. She’s in the same place she has been for almost a half a century. Also, the huge role that politics has played in her current situation has never ceased and the public outrage is still there.

    Yes, she h

  59. Cybele Moon says:

    for anyone who is so caught up in the rights of criminals like LVH who by the way will always be a criminal whether she gets out or not.
    here is a true but sad story and the reason why I get so hot about this topic.
    Years ago my friend in her mid teens coming home from school found her mother in a pool of blood in the kitchen murdered by her ex. The killer got twenty years as a crime of passion so to speak. My friend was beautiful. bright and good but she never completely recovered and one day a few years later at a very young age she committed suicide. The murderer is now out walking free somewhere. I’m sure other people have horror stories too. Is this justice?

  60. pt03613@gmail says:

    It’s truly sad what these monster do and all the rights they have. I have never been touched by violence, but I have great empathy for them. I feel nothing for these killer. LVH could ave been anything, but she chose to be a murderer. Cry me a river, poor Lulu is old and pathetic and wants to get out. Her victims wanted to live.

  61. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Cybele, whatever you do don’t make LVH supporters think beyond how violent crime has ripple effects. They show more concern over her having to pay for her choices than the innocent victims she put in early graves.

  62. Pam says:

    Raged on Columbia about the great injustices to this killer. Yes,Leslie, would have been released 20 years ago if not for the fear politicians have about what would happened to their futures if they released her.Newsom is a young, ambitious governor who will have the same concerns
    I’m glad that politics ensures that she will come out the same way as her christ, Manson.

  63. Paladin says:

    I tend to agree with Pam in terms of the ultimate result.

    Even putting aside – as much as one can, at any rate – Van Houten’s degree of culpability or responsibility re: the Labianca murders, it’s the political dimensions of the continuing notoriety of the Manson Family that will (I believe) cause ANY governor of California to continue to deny Van Houten release.

    I find it very unlikely that any governor, present or future, is going to conclude there is any political upside to releasing any of the Manson Family members. It won’t come down to how suitable they have been deemed for parole, or anything along those lines. Simply put, there isn’t – and probably never will be – a meaningful bloc of pro-release voters in terms of sheer numbers that would cause any governor for pure electoral reasons to think releasing any of the Manson Family defendants would be a good idea.

    The prevailing mindset of “why even take a chance?” will continue going forward, and since the Governor has the ultimate discretion as to the release, in jail is where Van Houten, Davis and Beausoleil will continue to stay if I were wagering money on it.

  64. snoop says:

    Newsom is soft on crime and very well will show mercy on Leslie.

  65. Fred Bloggs says:

    NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    the irony that you think I do not value human life while you are qualifying the crimes, prison life/possible parole of a two-time Manson Minion murderer is so exaggerated I’m surprised your keyboard didn’t lock up and auto delete that line of drivel

    I didn’t know irony could be exaggerated. That’s kind of what makes irony irony.
    But in my opinion, I don’t think you do value human life. As far as I’m concerned, whatever principles we hold are truly tested when it comes to matters that we naturally stand against. It’s easy to be fair on behalf of those that most of us would agree merit it. Not quite so easy when it comes to those that do not which includes those that have committed terrible crimes. That, as far as I’m concerned, is where one sees just how far value for human beings really goes.
    It’s only my opinion.
    As an aside, I’ve said on a number of occasions, that [a] I feel that being eligible to apply for parole after 7 years was way too short a period, [b] Steve Grogan being paroled after 14 years was way too lenient, [c] that if LVH had received a sentence of life without parole, she wouldn’t have had anything to complain about and neither would I and [d] words like “deserve” should not ever be part of discussions about parole.

    At least you’re entertaining

    And poor as a result of my chosen profession in internet comedy !

    Pam says:
    but what has she gained? For every parole release, she takes one step forward and the governor kicks her two steps backwards. She’s in the same place she has been for almost a half a century

    Physically, yes, she is. But even you would have to acknowledge there is a major difference between being sentenced to die and having a parole board recommend you for parole. It’s a bit like Rosa Parks being arrested for not getting up to let a White passenger sit down on the bus in 1955 and having no rights to speak of in a racially segregated land and 53 years later having a Black president of that same land. Perhaps some people simply don’t see the way the wind blew but for those that do, it’s profound.
    As many Van Houten detractors regularly tell the rest of the world, had it not been for the California Supreme court, she would have been dead. Now she’s been recommended for parole from the same set of crimes for which she was once scheduled to die. Same with Bobby Beausoleil.
    That’s a major gain. And it hasn’t happened in a vacuum. LVH supporters have seen that they would really need to approach their subject matter with the same degree of passion, committment and nouse as the likes of Doris Tate did.
    I agree with you that there has been a political dimension to some of the decision making but I think it goes deeper than that and not unfairly. I think Jerry Brown genuinely does see the original crime as having been so heinous that ratifying a recommendation of release sticks in his craw. My problem with his decisions has always been that the reasons he gave for denial were demonstrably untrue.

    pt03613@gmail says:
    It’s truly sad what these monster do and all the rights they have

    It awful what those people did. They are being punished for it and so they should be. But human rights are human rights
    They’re not just for the good guys.

  66. Cybele Moon says:

    Fred, I was wondering,
    Personally I think this idea of danger regarding LVH physically speaking is most likely nonexistent.
    However, to me the danger lies more in the psychology of so many people, discontent with the status quo and society in general, who hold up criminals (reformed or not) as anti heroes and political prisoners etc etc. This is very true concerning the Manson Family who have achieved myth like status so to speak ( though their crimes were no myth). America likes to glorify outlaws most of whom are long dead, like Jesse James and Billy the Kid ( a vicious killer), or Bonnie and Clyde. The Manson family are living outlaws and living legends to many. I have read articles by those who said Helter Skelter was a joke, another conspiracy theory, that they didn’t get a fair trial and those who admired Manson. I can imagine the clamour for interviews and books that will ensue to feed the public fascination when any of them get out. I read about how sexy and beautiful Leslie was, when she was young. How many people are in love with criminals- hybristophilia. Bobby Beausoleil said once “you better hope I never get out.” and now he’s getting out.

  67. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    A 1994 article from the Washington Post. Interesting read, especially when you compare her actions then to now. Lulu learned to play the parole board game didn’t she. Funny, I went to her website to find her archived parole transcripts and there are none…a dead link. Wonder why. Instead I have to rely on articles instead of actual transcript. In particular her 1986 hearing. Anyone have it?

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1994/08/07/killing-time/8bcd3321-0a7b-45ef-adc8-cc43c992321c/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.9ca34855330d

  68. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Fred, did you know one of her well-known supporters compared her incarceration to Rudolph Hess? Poor Leslie has served longer than he did.

    Just another opinion, right?

  69. Christy says:

    Jerry Brown was the attorney general of California for 4 years. I’m pretty sure he’s familiar with Leslie’s case.

  70. pt031361 says:

    “and now he’s getting out” Not really. He needs a governor who is willing to jeopardizes his career and risk massive public outrage. He’s no more close to getting out than Lulu was when she got her first parole nearly three years ago
    No governor is going to risk his career for a MANSON butcherer.

  71. Fred Bloggs says:

    NoJusticeNoPeace says:
    Fred, did you know one of her well-known supporters compared her incarceration to Rudolph Hess? Poor Leslie has served longer than he did

    I didn’t know that but whoever was making that point ought to know it’s a ridiculous one. The reasons Hess wasn’t incarcerated as long as Leslie are that [a] Hess was 47 when he was captured so time was running out anyway and [b] he killed himself at the age of 93 which ended his earthly jail time.

    Cybele Moon says:
    However, to me the danger lies more in the psychology of so many people, discontent with the status quo and society in general, who hold up criminals (reformed or not) as anti heroes and political prisoners etc etc. This is very true concerning the Manson Family who have achieved myth like status so to speak

    I agree and it is one of my major reservations. However, that’s not really in their control.

    America likes to glorify outlaws most of whom are long dead, like Jesse James and Billy the Kid ( a vicious killer), or Bonnie and Clyde. The Manson family are living outlaws and living legends to many

    Sometimes the culture that posits itself as the right thinking one leaves behind debris in some of its actions that it is blissfully unaware of and gets rather het up when it is pointed out. The glorification of outlaws in American history is a good example of that. The gunslinger has been lionized for a couple of centuries yet the outcry when gangster rappers started being photographed with and rapping about guns was revealing. As was Britain’s insistence on maintaining an empire after WW2, having just spent 6 years fighting a bloody war to stop Hitler having one.
    The Family were living legends to many but I’d always point out that they were all rounded up in a fairly short space of time after the murders, dealt with firmly by the justice system, very deliberately and consciously {by law enforcement} scrubbed clean of their delusions to the extent that not only did they {except their ex-leader} all come back to their right minds, they spent or have spent the majority of their lives trying to show the very society they once turned their backs on, that not only do they accept that that society was actually right, but that they want to be part of it, even to the extent that the powers that be keep saying ‘no.’
    That makes the Family purveyors of one huge defeat in my opinion. So if some want to see them as outlaws and living legends, well, good luck with that.

    I have read articles by those who said Helter Skelter was a joke, another conspiracy theory, that they didn’t get a fair trial and those who admired Manson

    Yes, these are standard elements {among many others} on just about every TLB site. They’re debated vociferously and elicit often fantastic debates and points from many keen and deep thinking minds. It has to be said, it really was not a straightforward case.

    I can imagine the clamour for interviews and books that will ensue to feed the public fascination when any of them get out

    I have mixed feelings on that. I think there is a positive side to young people hearing from an older person that has thrown away much of their life in irresponsibility, especially when it has led to certain roads and in particular if one of those roads was crime and definitely if the net result was murder.
    While it’s true that neither Dianne Lake, Paul Watkins nor Squeaky Fromme killed anyone, their books on life with Charlie Manson are nonetheless valuable in a number of ways. And yes, they are also readable and entertaining. Many of the books on the Family have their moments and there are a number of novel angles they take. If I were a writer or journalist, I’d want to do an in depth work on Davis, Van Houten or Beausoleil, while they still have some semblance of memory left, same way I would have wanted to do one on Hitler, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Emily Pankhurst or any number of people that are no longer with us but who led lives worthy of comment {for better or worse}.

    I read about how sexy and beautiful Leslie was, when she was young

    Strictly a matter of opinion. For me, the ultimate picture of Leslie from back in the day is her Spahn ranch raid mugshot. It is one of the most disturbing photos I’ve seen of a human being. I can’t even quantify why; there’s a blankness in her face that sums up just about everything negative about Spahn and that period which I don’t see in any of the other Spahn raid mugshots, except that of Susan Atkins in which she encapsulates what I would envisage the stereotypical face of insanity to be.

    How many people are in love with criminals- hybristophilia

    Hybristophilia goes further than just being in love with criminals. Basically it’s when a person’s ability to have an orgasm is more or less dependent on the object of their desires having committed some terrible act like a rape or murder.
    I shiver even typing that !

    Bobby Beausoleil said once “you better hope I never get out.” and now he’s getting out

    Well, he was 25 when he said that. He’s now 71. It was a stupid thing to say, he acknowledges it was dumb and although people have been bringing it up since the parole verdict {I’m still intrigued by it, even having read the transcript}, it’s not really something that I would hold against him. When he was a similar age, Mick Jagger said he didn’t want to be singing “Satisfaction” when he was 45. But he was. And beyond.

  72. Paladin says:

    I thought it was kind of sly how she mentioned to the reporter how many unsent letters expressing remorse to the Labianca family she had written over the years out of a desire of not wanting to upset them/appear to be asking them forgiveness: a clever way to get around all of that via mentioning it to a reporter.

    However, in terms of gaming or playing the parole board, I’m not sure I’d necessarily single Van Houten out for doing that: wouldn’t one think virtually every prisoner coming up in front of a parole board would to some degree tell them what said prisoner thinks they want to hear?

    By all indications, Van Houten has been as productive and compliant a prisoner as one possibly could be, and has met all the requirements for release.

    Unfortunately for Van Houten, the very enduring notoriety of her crimes will likely ensure she remains incarcerated. The Manson Family murders are a stain that won’t out, even though both advocates and opponents for her release would likely agree that had she been Jane Smith who murdered someone and it wasn’t as widely/perpetually reported that she would have been released decades ago.

  73. Cybele Moon says:

    Nicely said Paladin. There were only a few crimes that garnished such notoriety. Lerner and Loeb, The Lindbergh Kidnapping, The Manson family and OJ Simpson come to mind.

  74. Christy says:

    About the psychiatric angle, yes the psychiatrist(s) said Leslie and the others had not been insane and weren’t now. And yes that was almost 50 years ago. But I think, though could be wrong, they were also using the legal definition of insanity. And there wasn’t much wiggle room there at the time of the crimes. And I’m not sure if much has changed with that in ensuing years.

    Fred which picture is the Spahn Ranch mugshot? The only ones I’ve seen just make her look a bit zoned out.

    Cybele, when Helier Skelter was rereleased in 1994 with an update from Vincent Bugliosi he had a chapter about the people who revered Manson and the family and many of them hadn’t even been born when the murders took place. Up until his death Manson got lots of fan mail, probably more than anyone else during his incarceration. And that includes all the letters written to Richard Ramirez and Scott Peterson.

    I wrote this on another thread but I would worry about reactions regarding Leslie’s release. Wherever she goes she’s going to be trailing a media circus unless the state is able to put a real clampdown on her whereabouts. And she’s possibly going to be a target of either revenge seekers or Manson believers who will be angry she has disavowed him. I don’t think she personally is a danger but that myth is.

  75. Fred Bloggs says:

    Christy says:
    About the psychiatric angle, yes the psychiatrist(s) said Leslie and the others had not been insane and weren’t now. And yes that was almost 50 years ago. But I think, though could be wrong, they were also using the legal definition of insanity

    They were using the legal definition. I’ve long thought that the legal definition was something of a crock because not many people would genuinely think that society would not see what they had done as a crime {and therefore wrong} if they raped or murdered someone !
    But when we chew the fat and talk about insanity, we don’t usually mean the legal definition. I guess what I’m really getting at is that one does not have to be mentally sick to believe something wholeheartedly that is way out there and then act upon it.
    Also, unlike certain physical illnesses that can clear up with the passage of time, are the varying mental disorders like that ? They are so tied up and entwined in our being and don’t seem to me to have anything to do with choices that one can make. Their relationship to us and how we function are so much more complicated.

    Fred which picture is the Spahn Ranch mugshot? The only ones I’ve seen just make her look a bit zoned out

    It’s this one. Even before I knew when it was taken, it was one of those pictures that sent shivers up the nape of my neck. She looks like there’s busy and scrambled nothingness going on behind those eyes. It looks far worse than the one that prefaces the Marvin Part recording and that one seems like the effort was made to find a really blank faced shot.
    I’m into photography so perhaps I tend to see things in a photo that actually may not be there !
    ‘Zoned out’ is a good description actually. What the pic depicts may not be great but it’s a great shot, rather like the infamous Manson one from Ventura in 1968. I wonder whether or not the mugshot photographer was someone that really knew their stuff or just whoever happened to be at the cells on duty on the day and time the various arrestees were brought in and said ‘smile !’

    And she’s possibly going to be a target of either revenge seekers or Manson believers who will be angry she has disavowed him. I don’t think she personally is a danger but that myth is

    That would mean that Leslie is likely to be the one in danger.

  76. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Paladin, thanks for your insight. I understand your pov, and concur.

    I do have to say I never give credence to a murderer. Ever. They have an agenda. The victim’s family seeks justice.

    What I’ve indicated is how she has changed her responses to fit the narrative/criteria of parole over the decades. Sure, it’s a given from anyone incarcerated.

    However, she has, in particular, quite the record to reflect on, to review, to compare. And my point is she evolves with the politics at the time of her hearings. She is more than prepared..she is rehearsed.

    Rehearsed is not authentic.

  77. Cybele Moon says:

    well Fred and Christy, if Leslie found herself in danger once released then she might understand more how the people felt who were about to be murdered. Once upon a time people who had done something terrible went into a monastery and spent the rest of their days in penitence and away from the eyes of the world. It would probably be good if she could do something like that if she gets out haha. But like Christy said the infamy probably won’t leave her alone. It’s interesting what happened to Karla Homolka of Canadian murder fame. Here was a woman who helped rape, torture and murder two teenage girls with her husband. She declared herself an abuse victim and turned witness (before tapes came to light showing her eager participation) and got out in 10 years and is now married and the mother of three children!!! she just wants to live a normal life she says ( her kids will have the same legacy as Tex’s)- and yes people are outraged! My God!! Yes Fred, sometimes you just have to hope God knows what He’s doing.

  78. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Whoa Cybele, I read all about the “Ken and Barbie” murders. She certainly escaped justice by doing what?

    Playing the victim card.

  79. Paladin says:

    NoJusticeNoPeace, you may well be right in that after 35 or so years of periodic parole hearings, Van Houten may well have her responses to various questions that come up again and again rehearsed in terms of the responses she gives. Certainly in terms of the meta (how, what, where, when, why) questions regarding her crime.

    I should have prefaced my remark by qualifying that I’m neither pro-Van Houten or anti-Van Houten in terms of her parole or release, so I’m not advocating a particular point of view in regard to that specific question.

    Having seen quite a few of her parole hearings and interviews over the last 40 years…yeah, I do find something manipulative about her, in terms of her facility with telling people what they want to hear. I can’t say with any certainty if she has genuinely changed as a result of her lengthy incarceration from what she was circa late 1960s/early 1970s, or if her
    incarceration has just institutionalized her. I mean, I can’t say if she really feels any remorse for her victims beyond what she feels for herself, although I’ve always gotten a vibe or visceral sense that she is more easily able to feel empathy for her own plight than that of the Labiancas. Like, she feels her own suffering and expresses that very well. Such a person may just not be capable of expressing genuine, spontaneous remorse for others.

    It could be possible that – save for a brief period in the late 1970s when she was briefly out during her retrial – after what is now essentially a half century after she perpetrated her crime, what happened back then is something she has divorced herself from in her own mind as a coping mechanism. Who knows?

    I’m sort of in this odd spot where, as I said, from everything I’ve read Van Houten has been a model prisoner. She WAS granted parole by the legally recognized, applicable body. I tend to doubt she’d pose a danger to society if she were released in terms of her murdering anybody else. At the same time, if she remains in prison until she dies, I’m not going to exactly be losing any sleep worrying about her rights re: parole not being recognized/being violated.

  80. Pam says:

    Mansion’s greatest gift was choosing sociipaths to do his dirty work. I don’t think LVH feels anything for her, she’s saying what they want to hear. LVH said she understood the victim’s family’s pain, but “life goes on, my life goes on.” It really is all about them.

  81. Christy says:

    Fred that is an interesting point about Leslie’s mug shot. I thought you meant a different one but I’ve seen this.

    To me she looks like she’s stoned and got rousted out of a couch while watching tv or something. From what I understand it wasn’t all that unusual to harass hippies back then this way. So if I look at it from that point of view it makes sense. But knowing her background and that this happened barely a week after the murders she looks unnaturally calm and void I guess is the word I’m looking for. So I can understand your reaction to this photo.

    Yes, Leslie would be the one in danger but I believe some nut jobs on both sides of this would probably take little care to avoid hurting someone else anywhere physically near her.
    Then again it’s possible she could just fade into the background.

  82. Christy says:

    Cybelle I first heard of Karla Homolka while reading a book by an FBI profiler. I gather it was published before her true involvement came out. I also wondered why she never changed her name but I read her petition to do so was rejected.

    I do remember being surprised when I learned about how involved she was in this since I had also read about her being supposedly abused.

  83. Christy says:

    Lifelong sociopaths don’t become homecoming queens and don’t want to be nuns? Says who?

    One lifelong sociopath worked at a suicide hotline. Another a mathematics prodigy. And one has to wonder about some of the nuns of the Sisters of Mercy.

    Sociopaths don’t announce themselves to society by being reclusive jerks as a general rule. They generally try to fit in to society and they do have pedestrian dreams like everyone else.

    Also Leslie may have been a homecoming queen but she was also bitterly disappointed when she didn’t make it the following year. She beat her sister when she got upset and was already a dropout before she met Manson. Bugliosi was also clear that he believed they already had violent tendencies before they ever met Manson. Sure he brought it out then but that doesn’t mean any of the four in these particular murders would not have done something in the future. And you will note Bugliosi never was saying who he thought were most out of their mind but who would kill for him.

    Again there were a number of family members that had been there longer, were just as loyal but he could tell who were more willing.

  84. Paladin says:

    Although I have some contentions with some of what Columbo said regarding the specifics of the dynamics within the Manson family, overall I’d agree with his main points regarding Leslie Van Houten:

    She has met the requirements for parole. That her life was spared in 1972 as a result of California overturning the death penalty and she should have been content with considering herself lucky to have avoided execution – or if any one of us here on this board think she deserves to be granted parole/release or not – isn’t the overriding factor. Van Houten has met the requirements for parole and has been granted it.

    As to if Van Houten is a sociopath or not (or manipulative in terms of telling the parole board what they want to hear or not) or is able or not to feel for others more than herself also isn’t the overriding factor. The decision of the parole board(s) is, and then the governor has the ultimate decision as to release.

    In short, strictly in terms of the law, it is the decision of the parole board that carries the most weight, second only to the governor who has to authority after the parole board has made their decision to either confirm, deny/override or simply not get involved at all and let the release take its course.

  85. Pam says:

    Columbo, I firmly believe that LVH lacked empathy for her victim when she was stabbing her in the back 16 times, when she saw Sharon Tate being carried out in a body bag as they watched the coverage the next day, she couldn’t relate to Tate. This is clear by the fact that she asked the next day to go out and murder others. Also, she joked about Zero’s suicide,.
    thought it was funny when she was being questions about the murders. This is the very definition of a sociopath, someone who can only feel for themselves. She has little regard and respect for the lives of others, but she places such a high priority on her own life and her rights to freedom. In regards to her meeting the criteria for parole, I agree with you that she does, but I believe that her connection to Manson, and the fact that no matter how liberal a politician is, they still act in their own best interest. There is no benefit that Newsom will receive from releasing her. Therefore, she will most likely die in prison and when you consider the fact that she has lived twice the number of years has her victim, that is a gift. Rosemary Labianca was 35 when LVH butchered her, LVH is 70 years old. Her life is her parole. And yet she continues to go to the buffet table of and says, give me more, because it’s truly all about her and not what she did to her victims

  86. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Only issue is her parole? Duh indeed.

    Crimes were 50 years ago-check. She was a youth offender-check. She is old now-check. She has been a saint while incarcerated-check. Others who committed the ‘same’ crimes are paroled-check. It’s on the Tex Tapes!-check. It was drugs-check. It was Manson-check. It was her forced abortion-check. It’s her right to fight for parole-check. Victim’s families want revenge, not justice-check.
    The victims are just as dead as they were 50 years ago, so they are not the issue. She was two weeks from turning 20 years old but ignore that issue. The education equation is well, duh, what else is she to do? Marry another convict for sex and escape? There is no comparison of the Manson crimes to any other-she wanted infamy, she got it but by all means ignore that issue. Tex tapes, drugs, Manson was God, devil, abortion– excuse much?

    HER rights? Victim’s family members who have been obligated to attend her continual hearings are labeled, talked down to, finger wagged and tsk-tsked for don’t you know they only want attention. They have no issue, right?

    Duh huh.

    Pam is right in that no politician will be saddled with releasing a Manson murderer. And since the current law allows the heinousness and brutality of the crime as a sole reason to keep her sorry ass in prison, I’ll be delighted when once again she slinks back to rehearsal with lawyers, advocates, and the wanks who care more for a murderous, educated saint than they do for her victims and their families.

    Only issue is qualifications for parole my happy ass.

  87. Cybele Moon says:

    Christy, Karla Homolka did change her name to Leanne Teale at one point I believe.
    But Colombo as to this idea of psychopaths I agree more with Christy and the idea that so called “normal” kids would not have ended up in a clan of murderers. A lot of so called hippies met Manson at parties or at the ranch and ran the other way. Leslie and Pat had middle class upbringings.
    Ted Bundy was a psychopath and no one could believe it. He studied law, was popular and he even had a girlfriend.
    Yes LVH has met all the criterion for parole, yes this is only a discussion on how people feel about it.
    But true penitence is interesting as I wrote in my former post. Does a truly penitent person for example after murdering other people’s children turn around and go out in the community and have children of their own without thinking what their history might do to their children. That’s a very selfish act in my books. (e.g.) Karla Homolka., Tex Watson). Some of them also seem to like to give interviews and write books.
    Karla Homolka did try to hide from public view for awhile until she moved back to Quebec and was found to be a volunteer at a seventh day adventist school who by the way knew about her criminal past but believed in forgiveness!! (I would not have taken that chance with my own daughter!)
    All I can say about the Manson women was the dispassionate way they described the crimes and their soft little girl voices always chilled me to the bone.

  88. Christy says:

    Cybelle, this is off topic but one of the things I remember about the book about Karla I was reading at the time was “how could you do this to your sister?”. And so I thought that it must be serious abuse. Now it sounds like she was jealous of her sister Paul or not. I would have been devastated by my sister’s death especially if I had a part in it.

    Then I watched a show about this and saw the video of the two in the horse drawn carriage. I have no problems with over the top wedding ceremonies but I couldn’t believe that one so close after her sister’s death. I think she is a sociopath and I’d be leery of letting her around any kid I knew.

  89. Michael says:

    I’m against any of them being released, but if Newsom gives a thumbs up to Bobby’s parole I think it will be nearly impossible for him to refuse Leslie. Bobby’s extended torture of his victim, combined with his prison record which is far more checkered than Leslie’s, would make it awfully hard to justify his parole but deny Leslie’s. And much as I oppose her release, I think she shows considerably more remorse and awareness than Bobby. (I watched a show a couple weeks ago in which he said Bugliosi did more damage to Sharon Tate than Manson ever did – what sort of insanity is that?) I think those of us who oppose parole for LVH, Bobby, and Bruce will have to deal with disappointment fairly soon, though I hope I’m wrong.

  90. aussie kangaroo says:

    I agree with you . I think Newsom will grant Leslie . Regardless, they have all lived high on the hog in prison with the vast privileges of their notoriety/ celebrity, they always received special treatment and a lot of money on their books.

  91. snoop says:

    Leslie, like the others have lived high on the hog in prison. They had(have) more money on their books than they need. They are mega stars in prison. They can get anything they want. This year is the 50th anniversary , their notoriety and fame(same thing) will be at high peak. They will enjoy this year .

  92. Fred Bloggs says:

    aussie kangaroo says:
    Regardless, they have all lived high on the hog in prison with the vast privileges of their notoriety/ celebrity, they always received special treatment and a lot of money on their books

    Where do you get your information from ? Would you stake your life on those as facts or are these just your assumptions and opinions that in actuality have no basis in reality ?

    snoop says…
    Leslie, like the others have lived high on the hog in prison. They had(have) more money on their books than they need. They are mega stars in prison. They can get anything they want. This year is the 50th anniversary , their notoriety and fame(same thing) will be at high peak

    Same question to you.
    It seems to me that there are a number of people that have no experience of prison, prison conditions or have not extensively spoken with inmates or done any unbiased research on what prisoners can and can’t benefit from {legally !} and join the throngs that believe that jail is, as is often said in England, “a holiday camp.”
    Ask yourself this: if jail has afforded Van Houten so much privelege, why has she spent close to 43 years trying to get out of it ?

  93. Pam says:

    I think they’re miserable in prison and that’s why they fight so hard and long to get out. But make no mistake, their tears and pity are only for their own situation, never their victim. And I will believe they are getting out when I see them walking out the door.

  94. Tim Bailey says:

    Leslie will live in Manhattan Beach if paroled. That’s an expensive beach town.

  95. Cybele Moon says:

    Fred, no prison is not a holiday camp. I would hate to be in one of those places that are full of the most violent of male offenders. However, even they develop their own system for survival and hierarchy.
    I’m not sure about women’s prisons. But here in North America I do believe that prisoners get their basic needs met, they get health care ( some on the outside don’t get) they get opportunities to education that are free ( who gets that on the outside?), they get recreation etc etc. They get to visit with family ( even conjugal visits) they get to speak to their lawyers. I wonder if they get that in a Colombian jail or any other third world country. Susan Atkins was very well cared for at the end by the prison hospital. No one is left to rot in jail. really. But of course freedom is much preferable to being incarcerated and regimented. However, some people need that regimentation and discipline. Many don’t do well on the outside

  96. snoop says:

    California Institute for Women (CIW) up until the late 90’s was referred to as “CIWonderful. They had carnivals for the public with inmates running the show. They have a beauty salon, yoga, a yard that looks like a park and lots of perks.

  97. Cybele Moon says:

    Colombo, you’ve brought up some good points about the law. Of course I personally feel that they all should have been given life w/o parole. The victim’s families also have to go through the torture and grief as you say. According to the law as it is her sentence may be served but on a deeper level she can never repay the debt. Two lives were snuffed out and the ramifications and repercussions of that do not end.
    However, she has a good chance of being released as her lawyer believes and so it is a possibility I accept ( though not necessarily jumping for joy about it). It’s not as though she is being released in the prime of her life and so she has effectively served a life sentence according to law. She made her choices long ago. She was a good looking, intelligent middle class girl with parents who, though divorced, loved and cared about her. She was not a deprived, abused or otherwise mentally unbalanced person and though young she was not a child who hadn’t reached the age of reason. I always think of mitigating circumstance in crimes like this when you see the tortured childhood of many angry and disturbed perpetrators of violent crime. Because of that I have much less sympathy if any for Leslie. She did know right from wrong but threw her own life away by following a murderous criminal and pimp with a dubious gift of gab and psycho babel and whether or not her actions were aided by drug use- also a choice- or the brainwashing excuse she bears full responsibility.

  98. Fred Bloggs says:

    snoop says:
    California Institute for Women (CIW) up until the late 90’s was referred to as “CIWonderful

    By whom ? The inmates ? People on the outside tend to have their names for prison, like I pointed out earlier, a popular one in England is “holiday camp.” Well, it’s not the kind of place I’d be staying for my holidays.

    They had carnivals for the public with inmates running the show

    And when they were done, they went back to their cells and X year sentences.

    They have a beauty salon, yoga, a yard that looks like a park and lots of perks

    Why shouldn’t they have a beauty salon ? Why should their yard look like a shithole that a rat wouldn’t stay in ?
    You seem to be bent on trying to convince us that prison is a jolly old belly laugh and that high profile criminals are leading the life of Reilly.
    The reality is somewhat different. Jeff Dahmer and Whitey Bulger could tell you all about it…..if they were still with us.

    Cybele Moon says:
    I would hate to be in one of those places that are full of the most violent of male offenders. However, even they develop their own system for survival and hierarchy

    That many learn how to survive within it doesn’t imply that it’s nice or even tolerable. Think for a moment on what a guy may have to do in order to survive it. It’s often not pretty.

    But here in North America I do believe that prisoners get their basic needs met

    Well yes. The state could hardly not meet basic needs. That’s what used to happen and was consigned to the annals of a barbarous past.

    they get health care ( some on the outside don’t get)

    Few, if any, criminals commit crimes to get caught so they can get their dental work and ingrowing toenails tended to. Health care is a by-product of the system, not a perk that makes jail a wondrous experience.

    they get opportunities to education that are free ( who gets that on the outside?)

    They get free education because [a] quite a number of inmates are poorly educated and [b] not everyone is on a LWOP and therefore it’s part of the rehabilitative process. And then you get prisoners like LVH who put their free education to great use in prison and let’s face it, do everyone a favour. It’s as much for society as it is for the prisoner ~ and the prisoner is not forced to engage in education.

    they get recreation etc etc

    Without the limited recreation they do get, many prisons would be more of a tinder box than they generally are. But the recreation they get doesn’t even begin to compare with what’s available out of jail. You can only play so much enforced pool and basketball.

    They get to visit with family

    A couple of hours once a month or similar, depending on the jail.

    ( even conjugal visits)

    Not in California.
    Personally, I’ve long thought conjugal visits are wrong. But having said that, I might alter my view if my wife was in jail and I wanted us to stick together. I think many of us would if the shoe was on the other foot.

    they get to speak to their lawyers

    That’s just common sense. Sometimes, they need to.

    I wonder if they get that in a Colombian jail or any other third world country

    In many jails in other countries, no. And look how critical we are of those countries’ justice system for denying their suspects and inmates simple human basics.

    Susan Atkins was very well cared for at the end by the prison hospital

    Well, they could hardly have kicked her out onto the streets could they ? And yet, they had a choice. They could have released her to her family. They didn’t care for her because the quality of prison medical care was superior to that which she may have received outside…..

  99. Cybele Moon says:

    Fred, I’m not sure what the point is here about prison or why you feel the need to emphasize that they are not nice places. Of course not, they are full of anti social people and criminals. Of course inmates want to be free. Yes Prison is a jail! And these folks did the crimes which put them there. Too bad that they don’t have freedom anymore and they might not be having a good time. But I don’t believe they are badly treated as prisons go and they do have access to counseling and education and hopefully when they get out their lives have changed. Sadly the recidivism rate is not low.

  100. Fred Bloggs says:

    Cybele Moon says:
    I’m not sure what the point is here about prison or why you feel the need to emphasize that they are not nice places

    Although I used your quotes as a jumping off point, it was mainly in answer to snoop and aussie kangaroo who more or less state that the inmates have had preferential treatment and a pretty good deal. They haven’t. As you’ve pointed out, they’ve wasted their lives to a large extent and although they’ve been useful in prison and done good things, we all know that given the choice, none of them would have set foot in a state prison.

    Sadly the recidivism rate is not low

    True. For many criminals, getting caught and going to prison is viewed as an occupational hazard.
    Fortunately, not many murderers get too much opportunity for recidivism.

  101. snoop says:

    Fred,

    Your posts make no sense. I know you don’t the cognitive ability to grasp that many prisons in the US are pretty nice. There is an uproar about it in fact. And your post is full of contradictions. Yeah, we both agree CIW is far from a shithole. Have a nice day queen.

  102. CShel says:

    It has been nearly 50 years, Leslie is nearly 70 years old, and she has now been denied parole nearly 20 times already. In careful consideration of the evidence on record and the collective testimony of those who were present on both nights, and also by her own admission and accountability, it seems reasonable and likely that she was least of all to blame from those involved and though guilty as charged again by her own admission, it is apparent that these murders would have occurred without her involvement. In other words the events that night would have happened regardless of her presence and that cannot be said about any of the others aside from Kasabian. Watson, Adkins, and Krenwinkel all testified on numerous occasions that Leslie’s role was reluctant and after the fact while themselves all took initiative in the actual murderous acts. Mrs La Bianca was already fatally wounded when Leslie was instructed to take part. It is interesting that every one of the girls sentenced, consistently had a huge change of direction once isolated from the influence of the family and mind altering drugs for a period of time, how quickly they came back to reality and the realization of what had occurred. Though they were incarcerated during the trials, it is likely they were being continually provided with mind altering drugs and being influenced by family members during the frequent and permitted jailhouse visits. It was only after being formally and permenantly confined to a penitentiary that they all began to “sober up” over time. This is when the potential for rehabilitation begins and after 50 years of rehabilitation Leslie Van Houten is the only one out of the whole bunch I feel should be set free, and definitely not Watson or Krenwinkel. I’m not sure why Ms Van Houten would want to be on the outside, is there any community that would welcome her and hoe could you remain anonymous for any length of time. The whole thing is just unfortunate and sad from beginning to end.

  103. Cybele Moon says:

    Cshel and others, I just love these people who say Mrs. Labianca was already dead when Leslie had a go at her. How do they know! and besides who cares. She was part of a kill team who accomplished their mission. It’s also ludicrous to say she is less culbable because they could have done it without her , but they didn’t, she wanted to go so they did it with her. Degrees of blame? I don’t buy that at all. Read my above post if you wish. Yes it is sad. but they have no one to blame but themselves for their very lengthy incarcerations.

  104. Cybele Moon says:

    oh yes, I heard of him Colombo- John Waters, the eccentric film maker. I’ll try to give it a read. The other lady who met and wrote about them also became sympathetic. Truman Capote was sympathetic with Perry Smith after spending time with him. This is part of our human nature I think and a good part. Interestingly Nikki Meredith didn’t speak on Krenwinkel’s behalf at her parole hearing. Krenwinkel refused to meet with her after that.

  105. Fred Bloggs says:

    snoop says:

    Fred, Your posts make no sense

    To people that can’t engage in conversation with more than one side and make no attempt to understand points of view they disagree with, you’re probably right. That’s exactly how I am with trigonometry.

    many prisons in the US are pretty nice. There is an uproar about it in fact

    From who ? The inmates ? “Oh no, our prisons are too nice and the food is gourmet !! We want bread, water, disease and the rats that bring them !”

    And your post is full of contradictions

    Such as ?
    I’m genuinely interested to note what you see as a contradiction in what I’ve stated.

    Yeah, we both agree CIW is far from a shithole

    Whether the surroundings of a jail are “nice” does not make the experience of being in jail likewise.
    I think your attempts to show how nice prison is are poorly thought out and not in the slightest bit convincing.

    Have a nice day queen

    Sure thing, snoopy.

  106. Russell F says:

    Hello, can you help me find on your site:
    kitty Lutsingers voluntary statement to the police when all were arrested at Barker ranch?

  107. Shawn says:

    Do we not think that the amount of times she’s been in front of a parole board these answers could be very rehearsed and she knows how to act in front of them. I am in no way in favor of any of them being set free and that includes Bobby. However the scum bag known as Gavin Newsome and his crazy antics might just do it to prove a point.

  108. Serious Fuckhead says:

    Id like to know if anyone talking about how LSD can make people automatically programmable, has ever tried a psychedelic? isnt it a little lazy, mentally, to say ‘Manson was magic wizard who used special potion to trick fellow humans into doing bad things’?

  109. Jamie says:

    If it wasn’t for her Manson Family connection, few people would have heard of her and she would have been released over a decade ago.

  110. Cybele Moon says:

    Jamie, the thing is, it wasn’t just a robbery turned murder type situation or crime of passion, etc she was a Manson follower so she must bear the brunt of that aspect. The Manson story became a huge story of hippies gone awry, and the whole movement of peace and love turning into a nightmare. The crimes were gruesome and senseless, and thus sensational, not to mention one of the victims was very famous, and then there were the other famous names that came to light in connection with Manson, plus the criminal nature of a self styled guru. All those elements made it forever famous or infamous.

  111. Fred Bloggs says:

    Serious Fuckhead says:
    Id like to know if anyone talking about how LSD can make people automatically programmable, has ever tried a psychedelic?

    Yeah, I have on a number of occasions.
    It’s an oversimplification to say that psychedelics make people automatically programmable. There has been too much study done of LSD, peyote, mescaline and others over an 80 year period to be able to reduce everything that may happen within a specific individual, let alone the human race, down to a single sentence.
    But that is definitely one aspect that can occur with some individuals with repeated use of psychedelic drugs.
    Charlie Manson saw two very powerful sides to LSD early on in his acid evolution. Firstly, he had the thought that he was Christ. People tend to laugh at that but it’s not at all uncommon. John Lennon had the same experience, as did Vince Taylor. Loads of people did. The second thing he realized was that acid was a powerful tool in changing thought processes when he laid it on Dean Moorehouse. Now, it’s true, Moorehouse, who was a Methodist minister, had been curious about trying acid for a while, but when he came with guns blazing {not literally !} to mangle Charlie for screwing his 14 year old daughter and Charlie gave him a tab, life was never the same for Moorehouse and he became possibly Charlie’s first acid headfuck and after that tended to proclaim Charlie as the conduit to the truth.
    You’ve only got to read any serious study on 60s bands and artists to be aware of how certain management figures and ‘minders’ utilized acid in trying to control the bandmembers that had a softness for it. Actually, it’s a story that doesn’t only encompass the 60s or acid {it’s as old as the hills and the drugs are varying and plentiful}, but they are certainly part of it ~ and Charlie Manson was not averse to the potential, however he discovered it. As were the CIA, army, the Beats and a plethora of artists, psychiatrists/psychologists and researchers.
    LSD however, didn’t make anyone a murderer. But to say it played no part in the journey is naive.

    isnt it a little lazy, mentally, to say ‘Manson was magic wizard who used special potion to trick fellow humans into doing bad things’?

    Yes it is. In fact, it’s more than lazy. It’s ignorant and misses the huge nuances in the relationships between individuals, their backgrounds and mental make ups, how different people respond at different times to various drugs, suggestability, peer pressure, desire, environment as well as their own thoughts and feelings.
    Vincent Bugliosi noted in his and Curt Gentry’s book that Manson wasn’t some pied piper that appeared on a basketball court in Texas state, handed Charles Watson a tab of acid and led him off on a life of crime. In terms of acid and other psychedelics, those that ended up in the Family fall broadly into 2 groups ~ those that were already fairly experienced trippers before they met Charlie {LVH, Bobby, Pat, Susan, Linda, Squeaky, Bruce, Dianne Lake etc} and those that he very deliberately turned on for his own reasons. That group included people like Sandra Good, Dean Moorehouse and Stephanie Schram. In some instances, he deliberately laid acid on young girls to destabilize their heads which in turn made the sexual experience that likely was going to happen anyway, somewhat more dazzling or at the very least, memorable. It’s interesting that Tex fell into neither camp. He was turned onto acid by Dean Moorehouse. I think Brooks Poston may have been too. But Charlie knew how to use an acid tripper’s mindset in steering that person subtly in the way he wanted them to go. As far back as 1970, Brooks Poston and Paul Watkins were outlining that and as vearious members cleared their heads, they could see it too. Acid is part of the picture, not the entire picture. It’s acid in combination with other things and as one can see from what happened, not everyone reacted in the same way. Poston, Watkins, Kasabian, Flynn, Bailey and TJ declined their invites to murder.

    Russell F says:
    Hello, can you help me find on your site: kitty Lutsingers voluntary statement to the police when all were arrested at Barker ranch?

    I can’t find it anywhere online, Russell but I seem to have a memory of having read it somewhere back in 2015 or 16. I might be confusing it with someone else like Stephanie Schram but I vaguely recall there being some friction with her Mum that one could pick up from the interview. I could be mistaken though. If it’s any use to you, here’s an interesting piece on Kitty from a few years ago.

  112. Fred Bloggs says:

    Cybele Moon says:
    the thing is, it wasn’t just a robbery turned murder type situation or crime of passion, etc she was a Manson follower so she must bear the brunt of that aspect. The Manson story became a huge story….nightmare. …..gruesome and senseless, and thus sensational…very famous….criminal nature of a self styled guru…infamous

    I think that’s the thrust of Jamie’s point, that the Manson connection has prejudiced thoughts where she’s concerned, not so much Leslie Van Houten and what she did.
    In her latest hearing, she’s asked what difficulties she forsees on coming out and the main one for her she says, is notoriety. Now, back in ’69, Susan Atkins may have been of the thinking that they wanted to do a crime that would shock the world but Charlie, Leslie, Tex and Pat certainly weren’t. And if they did want the White world to be shocked, it was so their prophecy would kick off, not so they’d be ientified and become media darlings. LVH did not want anyone knowing about them.
    You should know that I’d never say that she did not deserve to be incarcerated for the length of time she has, but equally, it is undeniable that many people have looked at her or listened about her or read about her and Manson’s shadow is what has blocked the light. It’s often the shadow that is seen and there have been cases where someone has murdered and the outcry is like a raindrop to the ocean in comparison to that which accompanies LVH.

  113. Cybele Moon says:

    Fred. sadly true. but I get tired of hearing that had she been just an “ordinary murderer” she would be out by now which I don’t agree either that anyone who participated in that grisly a crime should be “out by now”. It’s also a bit late that “had she not been a Manson follower”. She was, which is why I said she bears the brunt of that connection. ” and all the tears won’t wash out a single word of it.” Justice or not- who knows. the universe unfolds as is does. (not necessarily as it should lol) and the outrage of public opinion has of course played a role too. She may get out this time around.

  114. Jewel says:

    cybel moon That may the most ignorant reasoning ever given. I mean maybe that is your attempt to be funny or sarcastic but really it just seems clear the only pathetic image I see is your obsession of trolling every LVH page with the idea anyone will take comments like that seriously, much less care what your opinion is………Oh if she was 20 years younger then maybe she’d be suitable for parole? Never mind the fact that she should’ve been paroled at 40, a statement even the DA publicly made.

  115. Julie says:

    Cybel thats hardly true, you don’t get tired of hearing it, you love it here.. that’s why you your name is everywhere when it come to manson family. Your obsessed we get it. What is confusing is why you are on the support pages and conversations, rather than the non support pages. Like drama much

  116. Gigi says:

    What an assbackwards thing to say. In her 60s you say if she was 20 years younger she may be suitable, and in her 20s it was said if she was 20 years older she’d be suitable. But when she was at that so called perfect age of 40 it was oh she’s still a danger… she be ready soon, just not now. Please they system is scum. It’s just a cycle of passing the buck that no one wants to be known of releasing her because they are cowards..but everyone knows that, according to the law she deserves it. EVERYONE.

  117. Cybele Moon says:

    Dear Gigi , Julie and Jewel first off may I say, I have no idea who you are and I am not on her “support” pages. Let’s get that straight. If I was a troll I would use a different name than one I”m known by. But thanks for your feedback. I enjoy these discussions yes. and I think we are all obsessed a little with this whole “drama”. I have said she may get out, and I’m sure she is remorseful but- I have never excused her actions and I personally thought they shoulld all have been given life without parole and many here agree with me just not you guys.

  118. Cybele Moon says:

    PS: oh wait, I did have a grand discussion with someone named D. Bell but it ended up covering the whole gamut of what the sixties stood for, the socio psychological ramifications of LSD etc. that I just happened across on youtube. If that’s trolling then actually you can end up having some great discussions. I’m not exactly sure what “trolling” is.

  119. Hana Rune says:

    Weighing in a bit late but I’ve been following these discussions too on Facebook and other sites. I think we are all obsessed a little or we wouldn’t be on them. Pros and cons from both sides. I find both points of view interesting, and some are well spoken. It will be interesting to know what the Governor will do. A little gang up on a poster also adds a bit of pepper. I think when that happens it has to be because the person has some good points? In defense of Ms. Moon, I know your storyteller page and your other site with discussions about Hate vs Free Speech, Victims of Violent Crime, Dead beat Dads and other topics not just the Manson family. Let’s keep polite people.

  120. Cybele Moon says:

    haha H, always the diplomat- aww thanks a bunch for “weighing in.” Don’t tell anyone we’re related. I says it as I see it too, but see you at the gallery.

    I do appreciate everyone’s opinion whether I agree or not, when it’s not an attack. Colombo I read that piece by Waters too.

  121. Cybele Moon says:

    I have a hard time with some arguments but I can at least say I appreciate your point of view Columbo – without getting bent out of shape lol. It was an interesting and quite personal read from this rather eccentric character.

  122. Cybele Moon says:

    as for drama I guess I like it as much as the rest of you (Jewel/ julie).

    I will be off the discussion boards for a time as I’m preparing for a themed art show. Go figure and it’s not about the Manson Family ! I do have other obsessions . Trying to be a well rounded OCD.
    It will be interesting to see the final outcome of it all and truly it will be what it is so no sleep lost. Hopefully our own choices in life have given us some fulfillment. God Bless. Thanks for all input and have really enjoyed much of the exchange here from the thoughtful people whether pro or con who have been here awhile.

    But Colombo or anyone else why did they call Gov Brown “moonbeam”?

  123. Cybele Moon says:

    haha! I thought maybe an old hippie lol.

  124. Fred Bloggs says:

    Hana Rune says:
    I think we are all obsessed a little or we wouldn’t be on them

    Er, not so.
    There is, in my mind, a universe of difference between interest and obsession. This is a subject that interests me and from which some great conversations can be had. I’m not obsessed about anything. Except breathing. I just have to breathe.
    “As breathing is my life
    To stop I dare not dare.”

    Jewel says:
    cybel moon That may the most ignorant reasoning ever given

    Julie says:
    Your obsessed we get it

    Gigi says:
    What an assbackwards thing to say

    Cybele bashing ain’t cool. One may not agree with some of her conclusions but for someone on the side of “keep LVH in prison,” she’s not afraid to concede some big points that some others on her side would rather die than concede to ~ and it doesn’t detract from her overall stance. I respect that.

    Gigi also says:
    everyone knows that, according to the law she deserves it. EVERYONE

    No offence Gigi, but not everyone does. That kind of blanket dismissal of every counterview to yours is actually quite demeaning. If you looked at the law and sought to actually understand it, then whether fair or not, you’d understand that “according to the law” the guv’nor is well within the law to be the deciding arbiter on who gets paroled and “deserve” does not enter the equation.

    Columbo says:
    She has met the criteria and conditions for parole, therefore, she should be paroled. It’s as simple as that. That’s the law

    Unfortunately, it’s not as simple as that. Part of the law is that the heinous nature of the original offence can be used in denying the inmate parole, if the Guv’nor so deems. All of me wants to scream out at how unjust that may be and I don’t believe it applies in Leslie’s case……but then, I think of someone like Ed Kemper and other guys like Ted Bundy, Jeff Dahmer or over here in England, Peter Sutcliffe. That gives me pause. It’s not as cut and dried as it initially appears. Maybe the guv’nor genuinely felt that the original offence was so awful that release will always be questionable. Which is kind of interesting for a liberal.
    That said, I think the last guv’nor tied himself with the reasons he gave for denial because they were demonstrably untrue.

  125. Cybele Moon says:

    Yayy Fred!! thanks for your explanations and points. I might be a bit obsessed- or maybe passionate (for victim’s rights and no excuses) is a better word!! I don’t condemn anyone for their stance on it. And unlike some I don’t have Charles Manson quotes or photos on my social media pages lol. Anyway take care all. Will check back in another week or so!!

  126. snoop says:

    Sources say Newsom will grant. He will factor in her age, her exemplary prison record and her intelligence . Leslie has a lot of help waiting for her on the outside. Prominent people.

  127. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Columbo’s mumbo jumbo. Politics! Liberals! Moonbeams! Evil supporters of justice! Oh. My.

    Newsom won by an up your ass landslide. That means you are bitter grapes inspired, which makes me wonder hmm…throwing your weight behind LVH when you just got bitch slapped by an evil, stoopid Democrap! Oh, sorry you’re on a first name basis…Gavin. Could it be… just could it be… that LVH is where she is because of her own actions?

    Course not.

    It’s all political. It’s Manson. It’s not Manson. ________________ (insert excuse here)

    Blah. Blah. Blaaaaah.

    Most litigated. Most parole hearings. Most exposure. Most excused. Continually stopped by both a Dem and Rep Gov.

    You see excuses.

    I only see her handiwork. That’s all I need to know. And that’s IS ALL THAT IS NEEDED TO REVERSE her parole.

    Love it.

  128. Lee says:

    It’s appalling that LVH supporters are throwing into the argument that Mrs. LaBianca was dead already when LVH stabbed her with glee. Uh…..AND???? What in the hell is wrong with you? Was the woman dead when they broke in? Was she dead when she was separated from her husband & taken in the bedroom where heard the guttural bayonet murder of her husband? Was she dead when LVH put a pillowcase over her head to terrorize her further? Was she dead already when LVH held her down so her crime partner could stab her in the collarbone? This couple died a horrible, torturous death at the hands of the savages who invaded their home! Who gives a shit if she were dead already! What about before she died? Ya know, I’ve been reading the same old bullshit year after year and the logic is nowhere to be found. There is no use arguing back & forth anymore with individuals who have no grasp of what this woman did. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: If LVH was a giant, obese cow NOBODY and I mean NOBODY would be coming to her defense. Or, if Leslie was had been a dog when young, you wouldn’t be reading all these ridiculous comments about supporting & defending her. Nope….there would be a lynch mob after her instead!

  129. Cybele Moon says:

    NJFP, Lee, no one can ever mitigate those two nights of unmitigated horror perpetrated on the victims and especially from the point of view of the victim’s families whom many LVH supporters like to put down and ridicule!
    Everyone knows I feel it should have been life without parole or 2 life sentences or whatever it takes to keep people in prison till death. However I have been told California doesn’t have that kind of law.
    The law gives them a chance and though “most” people don’t want to see any of them freed it’s getting to the point where the legal reasons for keeping them inside are wearing thin – sadly. We shall see.

  130. Lee says:

    Cybele Moon, I completely get what you’re saying. It’s so unfortunate that there is a very good chance that this time, LVH will have a good chance at leaving her institution. The families of her victims knew there was a chance she’d parole one day.

  131. Jazz says:

    Cyber is autistic from down under. Ignore him, the old queen.

  132. cielodrive.com says:

    Jazz says:
    Cyber is autistic from down under. Ignore him, the old queen.

    are you referring to Aussie kangaroo?

  133. Cybele Moon says:

    or me lol!!
    I seem to be getting my share this last while.

  134. Fred Bloggs says:

    Lee says:
    It’s appalling that LVH supporters are throwing into the argument that Mrs. LaBianca was dead already when LVH stabbed her with glee. Uh…..AND????

    This statement kind of draws into sharp focus how the two sides {or let me say, at least, two sides} of the argument can be so adept at at throwing aside what they do not want to hear and that often leads to a circular row that can never end.
    LVH didn’t stab Rosemary LaBianca “with glee.” Now, I am confident that at least one wing of the debate will rain down fire and brimstone on me for such a statement, but the evidence points firmly in that direction. Leslie was up for killing {hence the conspiracy end of the charge} until it came time to actually do it. Then she got cold feet and had to be coerced by Tex. I’ve long found it interesting that no one disputes her story of leaving the stabbing initially to Pat, as Pat had the experience.
    But does this make Leslie any the less guilty ? Not in the slightest. If you are part of a gang that intends to kill and someone dies, whether you personally did anything or not, both legally and morally, you bear a weight of responsibility that you can’t avoid.
    So I can point out continually that LVH got the wobbles about actually killing because it doesn’t lessen what happened or her role in it. She didn’t end up in jail because of mistaken identity and while it may be true that Pat may have been worried she’d be punished for not obeying orders, the same can’t be said for Leslie, especially when one takes into account Linda.
    On the other side of the mountain is the argument that Rosemary LaBianca was dead when Leslie stabbed her. As an aside, it was her replacement lawyer Max Keith that tried very hard in the original trial to push the idea that she couldn’t be guilty if all she did was stab a dead body because the deed had already been done. It wouldn’t be true because she was still an active part of the conspiracy, but he floated that idea out there. LVH didn’t. Not to her former lawyer, Marvin Part, not to Keith, not to the jury. And all of that is significant. She may have believed the body was dead {I’d say it’s a near cert she did believe this} but that’s kind of by the by, because the evidence shows Rosemary was not.
    Spoiler alert: It might get long…..Bear with me here.

    In the book “Helter Skelter,” author and prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi says that “Rosemary LaBianca, Katsuyama also testified, had been stabbed 41 times, 16 of which wounds mostly in her back and buttocks, having been made after she had died…..This was very important testimony, since Leslie Van Houten told Dianne Lake that she had stabbed someone who was already dead.”
    However, those numbers and placements are seriously off.
    During the trial he asks one of the medical examiners, David Katsuyama, if any of the wounds appear to be after death and Katsuyama says yes. He then explains why he’s come to this conclusion and he marks the post mortem wounds on a diagram for everyone to see. Bugliosi specifically asks if the wounds marked as post mortem are on the left and right buttocks and Katsuyama says yes, even though he has, a moment earlier, referred to the wounds as being on the “lower part of her back, on her hips.” But at no point during the testimony does he give an actual number of post mortem wounds.
    Now, Bugliosi, by saying in “Helter Skelter” that most of the post mortem wounds were on the back and buttocks, implies not all of them were. I don’t know where he gets his figure of 16 post mortem wounds from because during questioning, he doesn’t mention a figure or ask for a figure and Katsuyama doesn’t give a figure, he just says he sees a number of them that he’s marked.
    Katsuyama refers to the post mortem wounds as “the smaller wounds on the lower part of her back, on her hips” and this is consistent with the autopsy which shows fourteen ¾” ~ 1″ wounds marked as “lower back” and specifically noted as “described but not numbered; some post mortem.” That little word, “some,” is what shows that Leslie’s claim of Mrs LaBianca being dead when she stabbed her can’t have any basis in fact if, as she says, she stabbed her 14-16 times. The autopsy is saying that of the 14 wounds in the lower back only some of them were post mortem. That means less than 14 and is less than the number Leslie has always given. Interestingly, when Katsuyama was asked why he thinks the specific wounds he’s talking about were inflicted after death, he begins his sentence “I believe these were inflicted shortly after she died or while she was dying…” which would indicate that post mortem wounds could occur while someone was dying which means they are still alive. There may not be much life left, but ‘dying’ is not the same as ‘dead.’ So on both counts, the claim that Rosemary was dead is heartily disproven by the actual medical evidence. Like I said earlier, I have no doubt that LVH believed her to be dead. Even Tex did. But as I once pointed out before, the Family record {Manson & TJ on Bernard Crowe, Bobby, Mary & Susan on Gary Hinman, Tex on Wojiciech Frykowski, Bruce Davis on Shorty Shea} on identifying when someone was actually dead is pretty rubbish and it is rather interesting for me that {and you can add some of the stuff done to Frykowski and Sebring and the other Cielo victims, while they were dying or possibly dead as well as Pat sticking the fork into Leno LaBianca} most of the victims of their crimes were gotten at after they were thought to be dead.
    So it is of no help to keep on with the “Leslie stabbed a dead body” charade because that is, like the Guv’nor’s reasons for denying her parole last time around, demonstrably untrue.

  135. Christy says:

    If I’m not mistaken the parole board in California is an appointed office. The governorship is elected. That’s known as checks and balances.

    Columbo, maybe you ought to be working on changing this instead of characterizing the last governor of California as a liberal puppet for doing something that conservatives support. IE not granting parole for murderers no matter how long they’ve been in. In other words trying to change the law that people up for parole shouldn’t have to have the governor of California have the final say. But my guess is you really wouldn’t want that if the person up for parole was someone YOU thought didn’t deserve it.

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