Van Houten Granted Hearing In Appellate Court

Wednesday, February 20th, 2019

An appellate court judge has granted Leslie Van Houten a hearing regarding her writ of Habeas Corpus challenging Jerry Brown’s reversal of her September 2017 parole recommendation.

Judge Frances Rothschild today ordered the attorney general to come before the court to show cause as to why Van Houten’s petition should not be granted. The hearing will be held in downtown Los Angeles at 9 A.M. on April 24th.

Van Houten’s attorney, Richard Pfeiffer, feels the courts are Van Houten’s best path to freedom.

A parole board found Van Houten suitable for parole in September 2017. Then-Governor Jerry Brown reversed the decision in January of 2018, citing the heinousness of the murders. Brown accused Van Houten of downplaying her role in the murders, saying she attempted to shift blame to Charles Manson.

Pfeiffer filed a writ of Habeas Corpus challenging Brown’s reversal, arguing the decision relied on isolated negative factors to support the conclusion that Leslie Van Houten posed an unreasonable risk if released.

In June of 2018, Superior Court Judge William C. Ryan upheld Brown’s reversal.

“The Governor met all due process requirements, and considered all relevant statutory factors tending to show suitability, including positive psychological reports,” wrote Ryan. “This court is not entitled to reweigh the evidence before the Governor; rather it is tasked with determining whether the record contains some evidence in support of the Governor’s decision. This court finds that it does, and that there is a rational nexus between the evidence in the record and the Governor’s determination of [Van Houten’s] current dangerousness.”

Pfeiffer immediately challenged Ryan’s ruling in California’s 2nd District Court of Appeal.

Van Houten, was sentenced to death in 1971 for her part in the August 10, 1969 murder deaths of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca. The following year, Van Houten saw her sentence commuted to life after the California supreme court outlawed the death penalty, stating it was unconstitutional. In 1976, an appeals court ruled Van Houten was denied a fair trial because her attorney, Ronald Hughes, disappeared while the trial was in progress.

Van Houten was retried in 1977, resulting in a hung jury. She was retried the following year and again convicted, this time sentenced to life with the possibility of parole. Because of time served on her original sentence, Van Houten was already eligible for parole when she returned to prison in August of 1978.

Since then, she has been denied parole 19 times. She has been recommended for parole in her last three consecutive parole hearings. Her 2016 and 2017 parole recommendations were reversed by then-Governor Jerry Brown. Her most recent parole recommendation is still being reviewed by the Board of Parole Hearings and will eventually be reviewed by newly elected Gavin Newsom.

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58 Responses to Van Houten Granted Hearing In Appellate Court

  1. Alexander Hill says:

    She will very likely be out within the coming months. Even if they wanted to keep her in due to political pressure, there is virtually no legal argument anymore that she poses a risk.

  2. Star Blazers says:

    I think you are right. She is going to get out.

  3. Alexander Hill says:

    Plus when the governor denied her he said that it was because she blamed Manson too much even though she has always taken responsibility for her part. Glad that was addressed
    by her attorney in her most recent hearing as well.

  4. Pam says:

    Does she still need Newsom to get out, or can she go through the courts?

  5. Alexander Hill says:

    Either.

  6. Pam says:

    I would agree that she stands a chance to get out if she goes through the court, bit I would give her little chance if she has to go through a governor who would take tremendous political heat releasing this horrible MANSON butcher.

  7. Pam says:

    Oops, sorry for the double post.

  8. Alexander Hill says:

    Yeah I agree with you. He likely won’t release her but best case scenario I think is that he sends it to the full board to vote I think.

  9. snoop says:

    This is positive for Leslie .

  10. Cybele Moon says:

    Although I still don’t feel sorry for her as some do or feel her time served has been unjust, I admit it looks like she is finally getting close to release especially when it has to do with whether she is currently dangerous which she most likely is not and also as fits the elderly inmate criteria. I do give that credit to her very dedicated and “leave no stone unturned” lawyer, Rich Pfeiffer who took a lot of flak on a previous talk show but remained gracious.

  11. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    How many does that make?

    Lost count. (not) ..but I dare say it’s more than 16 stab wounds, less her prove loyalty, less her oh shit got caught, less her years trial/incarceration/freedom/freedom/let me get free everything, toss that up for my worth AS IF THAT WILL EVER EQUIVOCATE TO THE LIVES SHE KNEW (TATE) AND MOST ESPECIALLY THE LA’BIACA’S, WHICH SHE WAS FROTHING TO GET IN ON.

    Oh yeah… according to HER… ya know, a MURDERER… it was all post mortem. Who else do you have to rely on for TRUTH? Murderers? Trial record…autopsy records…facts?

    Unless the Tex tapes….n.a.d.a.

    Unless habius corpus…Manson is dead therefore… Katie is my mentor but uh… uh, no… disregard pictures of she and I stripped and huggin’ and a lovin’. Disregard my entire involvement. I had a forced… my parents divorced….it was the era of the…

    Unless you educate for CONTRITION

    Unless more family members of MY victims GIVE UP…so I can look in “their” eyes, bucking regulations ‘cuz hey, I’m a Princess. I. Fear. Not.

    Any one of you who think this murderous high functioning sociopath should be paroled are WORSE than HER CRIMES…

    But sleep easy…

    it was 50 years ago… can’t happen again.

    Not to YOUR loved ones.

    Right.

  12. Pam says:

    LVH has been granted many hearings and she is still right where she belong. I hope it stays that way
    Brown’s decision could still hold. I’m tired of hearing about her rights and using our money for appeals. My heart is with her victims
    This butcher needs to quietly serve her time

  13. snoop says:

    Newsom is all about prison reform, and California is a very liberal state that believes in mercy. Leslie is getting out.

  14. Fred Bloggs says:

    Pam says:
    I’m tired of hearing about her rights and using our money for appeals

    The point of rights is that they are not just for those that you deem to be the good guys. Otherwise, none of us would be accorded them and it would be just like “the old days.”

    snoop says:
    Newsom is all about prison reform, and California is a very liberal state that believes in mercy. Leslie is getting out

    California has been a liberal state with liberal guv’nors for a long time. Yet the Family murderers have been in all this time. Liberalism has nothing to do with this case.

    NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Any one of you who think this murderous high functioning sociopath should be paroled are WORSE than HER CRIMES

    You do have a flair for the dramatic, but that’s a statement that, if you really stop and think about it and its implications, is, well, let me be a gentleman in public and say “something of an exaggeration.”
    I could say worse !

    But sleep easy…it was 50 years ago… can’t happen again. Not to YOUR loved ones

    Well, it was 50 years ago, but it’s not the time ago that’s significant. After all, when Susan Atkins died, it was 40 years ago. When Charles Manson died it was 48 years ago. The significance of the time is what has happened in that time. I wouldn’t have paroled Atkins or Manson even though one was totally unremorseful, indeed, saw nothing to be remorseful about and the other was repentant and remorseful and had done positive things in jail.
    And in truth, do you think it could happen again with Leslie Van Houten ?

  15. Cybele Moon says:

    Pam and NJNP, whether or not she gets out, doesn’t change the story. Her victims remain robbed of whatever joys and sorrows life would have given them and the families of the victims remain broken or bereft. That never changes and I dare say if she is truly remorseful she will have to carry that burden the rest of her life. They were such horrific crimes that I never understood why people took up her cause so eagerly as though she were the victim and they were personal friends or family who are all going to have a big party when she is released. She still was a murderer no matter the “unenthusiastic” stab wounds controversy. She was a privileged middle class pretty girl who chose a dark path and has paid a heavy price. Legally speaking of course, it’s the job of her lawyer to get her a release and the sad fact that the sentence did change to life with the chance of parole every 7 years, then 5, then 3 then 1 etc. which I never understood after a death sentence but that is the law in California.

  16. Pam says:

    I think that self preservation in a politician will trumpy liberalism. The MANSON family killer have always been held to a different standard, a harsher one. This is why they still remain in prison, even Atkins was labeled on her death bed has “dangerous” Even a liberal like Brown turned LVH and Davis down. This is why her attorney wants to take it to the court

  17. Pam says:

    I agree that LVH will be released, but it will be the same way Atkins and MANSON were released in a body bag. Newsom isn’t going to jeopardize his career for a MANSON butcher. There is no upside for him, I don’t think his liberalism will be a factor.

  18. snoop says:

    “California has been a liberal state with liberal guv’nors for a long time. Yet the Family murderers have been in all this time. Liberalism has nothing to do with this case.”

    Not true Freddy! California was a red state for decades. It was Nixon and Reagan country. Newsom is so to the left he makes Brown look like former governor Pete Wilson.

  19. Fred Bloggs says:

    snoop says:
    Not true Freddy! California was a red state for decades. It was Nixon and Reagan country. Newsom is so to the left he makes Brown look like former governor Pete Wilson

    Fair enough, but in the years since Ronnie Reagan left in ’75, the split has been Republican 24 years/Democrat 20 years {and by the end of this administration, it’ll be even}. To me, that’s a long time, particularly when you consider Jerry Brown did 16 of those years. Apart from the first time {not counting Steve Grogan} an ex-Family member was found suitable for parole in 2010 with Bruce {who’s parole was terminated by Arnie}, the PB’s “Yay !” has always been under Democratic watch and as such, liberalism has little to do with them getting out or remaining in. The Guv’nor nixed parole on 6 occasions in 6 years. That wouldn’t sound so wild had it been to 6 different inmates, but because it was to 2 that made people sit up and take notice.
    Interestingly, when Steve Grogan was paroled, it was a Republican guv’nor in charge which says something to those that have repeatedly stated that a politician wouldn’t soil their legacy by releasing a “Manson murderer.”
    Do many people remember and revile George Deukmejian ?

    Cybele Moon says:
    They were such horrific crimes that I never understood why people took up her cause so eagerly as though she were the victim and they were personal friends or family who are all going to have a big party when she is released

    It begins with her attitude and outlook of remorse. Plus the reality that of the killers, she will always be identified as the one that did the least. I know that legally it makes no difference but I’m afraid it does to the average human being. If two people came to burgle your house and one of them was in one of the rooms gathering the goods and the other came across your Mum in the basement and shot her, even though the law would deem both perps equally guilty, a huge swathe of the human race simply would not. That’s not to say that the one in the room stealing the stuff wouldn’t glean hatred and anger, but when it comes down to it, we identify the actual striker as the specifically guilty one. Most of the time. So, there’s that, someone who very privately then very publicly {primarily because of the media, it has to be said} wore their heart on their sleeve, made their errors in public {I’m talking about after incarceration} but admitted continually that they had been wrong and that they knew they could never turn the clock back and undo what they had contributed to and done. Particularly when Charles Manson jumped in and out of the “yes I was involved to a limited degree”/”it had nothing to do with me” word and mind games he played while thinking he was hoodwinking anyone that took an interest and also the concentration on Charles Watson’s brutal and direct involvement in every one of the Cielo/Waverly murders and Steve Grogan’s parole. Along with a host of other things, these factors touched people. And you know what we as humans are like once we get the bit between our teeth.
    As an Englishman outsider, I also suspect that some of it is this serious moral wrestling that occasionally takes place between some of the more vociferous conservatives and liberals at times of high passion. We have it in spades at the moment over here with Brexit.

  20. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    I could say worse!

    You already have.

    But why would ya Fred. You have NEVER lost a loved one to MURDER?

    Fred, your parafuckusgraphs are about nauseating. Try getting to the fucking point within a limited diction.

    Without all the vitriol? Without para-graphic BULLSHIT.

    C’mon man. Own. IT = YOU

  21. Alexander Hill says:

    I really don’t think releasing Leslie would jepardize a governor’s career. I would be in the news for a few days and then people would move on. The earlier he would let them out in his term the better.

  22. Cybele Moon says:

    Fred, I hear what you are saying and she probably will be released at some point it looks like, but you said
    “. If two people came to burgle your house and one of them was in one of the rooms gathering the goods and the other came across your Mum in the basement and shot her, even though the law would deem both perps equally guilty, a huge swathe of the human race simply would not. ”

    The problem I have with that is that LVH was on a “murder mission” with her cohorts , not a robbery and she did participate. It was not a case of only one of them was going to commit a murder. She knew darn well what was going to happen that night whether or not she may have got cold feet at the last moment. She still held Mrs. Labianca down etc etc. She still stabbed whether or not the woman was dead or near death.
    I admit as I said before I don’t have as much sympathy for her although she probably is remorseful. She was a middle class, privileged, pretty, intelligent girl. Why she chose to live in squalor with a band of misfits and deviants is anyone’s guess. Whatever her supporters say in defense I don’t believe that “everyone” is capable of being so brainwashed that they would think murdering innocent people in their homes is acceptable. She was not horrified when she found out what happened the night before. They were all totally drugged out yet some were horrified. I for one would always find those persons who did participate, suspect as to their thinking processes.

  23. Pam says:

    Fred, LVH was convicted of two murders, Bobby was convicted of killing one, so no she didn’t do the least of all the killers. In fact, LVH was the only one that asked to go out and murder
    The rest were selected and told by Charlie to murder. I love how her supporters try to reduce her involvement when she was so eagered to participate. She was a cold blooded killer who dressed in the clothes of her victim and ate food after she stabbed a women 16 times in the back
    She was a brutal taker of life.

  24. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Pam, those finger waggin’ heretic ass munchies…..

    Well yep.

    I have faith.

    So where is that in THIS equation? C’mon ,

  25. Pam says:

    How disgusting to sit around drinking chocolate and eating watermelon in the middle of a bloodbath, while you are dressed in a woman clothes, you just butchered like cattle
    Only an animal does that.

  26. paul says:

    Cybele

    We were not in the situation so we can’t be so naïve about it, you can say you would never get involved in something like that but at the end of the day, we can’t say that’s true because we won’t know because that situation is rare for one thing, secondly there was a lot of people at the ranch that believed in this philosophy, and Debra’s claim that Manson was just good at collecting already existing sociopath is very weak.

    What I found interesting about the people I speak to on this comment section is that they base their argument that we are biased by trying to mitigate her crimes yet they are kinda contradicting themselves because they almost refuse to listen to countering arguments and can’t accept anything that work in Leslies favour.

  27. Michael says:

    The LaBianca’s killers were specifically ordered to murder, not to rob, so Fred’s illustration doesn’t work for me. All three were on the same murderous page from the get go, and Leslie was hardly surprised when killing took place since that’s what she entered the house to do.

    If two people entered my house and one shot my wife while the other only restrained her then desecrated her body after she died, then no, I wouldn’t be able to make a moral distinction between the two.

    On a different note, if Leslie is released, I hope she’ll at least have the decency to refrain from giving interviews or in any way capitalizing on her notoriety. I believe she’s remorseful. I hope I’m right, but only time and her post-release behavior will tell.

  28. Fred Bloggs says:

    NoJusticeNoPeace says:
    You have NEVER lost a loved one to MURDER?

    Murder, no, because in the two instances it happened, it couldn’t be proven that it was murder. Rape, robbery and shooting, several times, yes. Including my own spouse, my own brother, my own sister and my own son. And I won’t mention the times this has happened to friends, even though they were loved.

    your parafuckusgraphs are about nauseating. Try getting to the fucking point within a limited diction. Without all the vitriol? Without para-graphic BULLSHIT

    I don’t know specifically what you’re referring to here. Help me out.

    Pam says:
    LVH was convicted of two murders, Bobby was convicted of killing one, so no she didn’t do the least of all the killers

    I was referring to the TLB murders. I was also referring to how others may see it.

    In fact, LVH was the only one that asked to go out and murder

    And as has been pointed out before, that is factually incorrect. She did not ask. As far as is known, nobody asked.

    I love how her supporters try to reduce her involvement when she was so eagered to participate

    It is not “reducing involvement.” I think you will find, if you go back over the last 5 or so debates that have taken place over the last 9 or so months, that I have been the person that has continually pointed out that LVH stands alone as the only one of the killers that actively wanted to kill.

    Michael says:
    The LaBianca’s killers were specifically ordered to murder, not to rob, so Fred’s illustration doesn’t work for me. All three were on the same murderous page from the get go, and Leslie was hardly surprised when killing took place since that’s what she entered the house to do

    I get that Michael.
    Cybele had said that she couldn’t understand why people that were not friends and family of Leslie took up her cause given that the murders were so horrific and I was answering her question. I was trying to give the answers to her question some context. Giving something context isn’t about the rights and wrongs of a matter. It’s undeniable that there are a variety of reasons that people have latched onto LVH’s situation and support it and I gave some of those reasons. Some people do think she’s less culpable and I outlined why those reasons might be. Many people would not put her in the same class as Tex. Loads of people would compare her remorseful attitude with that of Manson who never saw any reason why he should have any etc and would see a difference between them and that would influence how they felt about her.
    When I made the point about the murderer and the robber, yes, I know that robbery had nothing to do with the crimes, heck, I’m the one that tends to point out that in her 3rd trial, the prosecution were afraid that she wouldn’t be convicted after the hung jury in the 2nd trial so they played a dab hand in emphasizing felony murder because things {a few coins and an item of clothing} were taken but I felt that nothing should have changed from the original trial. So I was using robbery vs murder as an example to illustrate how, if some people see her crime as the lesser crime, their feelings towards the person might also differ.

    If two people entered my house and one shot my wife while the other only restrained her then desecrated her body after she died, then no, I wouldn’t be able to make a moral distinction between the two

    But a lot of people would.
    To turn it around slightly, if it was someone’s child or sibling that did not wield the actual death blows but was part of the crime and the death penalty was the potential endgame, I suspect they might view the matter differently, if only in private.

    On a different note, if Leslie is released, I hope she’ll at least have the decency to refrain from giving interviews or in any way capitalizing on her notoriety

    I’m in part agreement with that but I also realize that that does not really square with the world in which we live. Fact is, people want to know. And there’s also the other side of the equation ~ the thought that it can actually do many young people definite good to hear from a released murderer who to a large extent has wasted 50 years of their life and who has to live with the reality that they can’t undo what they have done. There are already too many young people that see criminal activity of varying shades in a glamorous light.

  29. Cybele Moon says:

    well, people are passionate!! I try to retain some openness to listen to the other side without freaking out.
    Paul, I know what you are saying but I still don’t believe everyone is susceptible to that kind of brainwashing that ends up so violently toward perfect strangers. We know some cult members have committed suicide. However I also know that in extreme stressful circumstance such as a war experiences the worst can be brought out in some people ( but again, not everyone). – But the Manson followers weren’t in a war they were just pissed off at the rest of society through Manson. I won’t go again into the reasons I don’t feel as sorry for Leslie as I’ve already stated why in other posts. Actually Debra is not far off as I also believe he was able to hone in on very weak minded, discontent and angry individuals and yes they were also young. Also Leslie wanted to go out and kill for Manson after she found that they had done the night before- that is the truth.
    The only thing I believe that works in LVH’s favour is her remorse now if true, and her behaviour now, not anything that she did when participating in the crime.

    Fred I agree with your last paragraph especially.

  30. Paul says:

    Cybele

    You keep referring to the fact that Leslie wanted to go out and kill so lets talk about that. Can you tell me that Leslie wanted to kill for the simple pleasure of it and do you think she wanted to commit that crime in her normal state of mind?

    I could say she didn’t actually want to kill but would if necessary to carry out Manson’s philosophy, which is true.

  31. Cybele Moon says:

    Paul, what does it matter in the long run, at least in my thinking though I know you do see a difference and many others do as well. Two people were robbed of their lives in a very cruel, gruesome and terrifying manner, whether or not she was only doing it for Charlie! Sorry, but to me that’s no excuse. They allowed themselves to be brainwashed into an evil nightmare. They could have left as a few did. We talked about this before. As soon as they came into the “cult” they could see how Manson treated women and those who went against him. We may never understand why I suppose or what might have been inherently wrong with these people’s minds to begin i.e. they were so insecure in themselves or that they didn’t know right from wrong. I do not believe nor ever will that everyone seeking enlightenment of one sort or another would accept this kind of behaviour after joining a commune. Actually most communes were peaceful I believe.

  32. Cybele Moon says:

    Fred, you said
    I know that robbery had nothing to do with the crimes, heck, I’m the one that tends to point out that in her 3rd trial, the prosecution were afraid that she wouldn’t be convicted after the hung jury in the 2nd trial so they played a dab hand in emphasizing felony murder because things {a few coins and an item of clothing} were taken but I felt that nothing should have changed from the original trial. So I was using robbery vs murder as an example to illustrate how, if some people see her crime as the lesser crime, their feelings towards the person might also differ”

    I so agree!

    Leslie did garnish more sympathy than the others, she was the youngest and looked like a pretty homecoming princess. I get how people could have looked on her as a lost soul who had been manipulated into horror which of course in a sense she was. I believe that the jurors did have a problem with the crime vs the one who committed it.
    In spite of all that I agree that she was a willing accomplice and has deserved her life behind bars. She of all of them, had a pretty nice upbringing, a loving family and possibilities for a bright future etc as I have stated before. Drugs and brainwashing are no excuse because at the beginning it’s always a choice. We do have free will.

  33. Michael says:

    You know, Cybele, I had a terrible crush on Sharon Tate back in ’69. (I was 14 then) I couldn’t fathom anyone doing what was done to her and the others, so when the Manson gang was arrested I thought they were all scum who should be killed ASAP. It took me decades to even recognize Leslie as human.

    Now, I do feel some real sorrow for her and the waste she made of herself, while feeling more sorrow for her victims and their families. So I’m guessing the jurors had a hard time sentencing her, but I’ll bet their decision was made easier by the coldblooded nature of her crimes and the coldblooded nature she displayed in court.

    Sometimes depravity stands out more than beauty.

  34. Paul says:

    Cybele, in this case the details do matter since its remained such a hot topic to this day. Going back to when Leslie became involved in this family, the atmosphere at the ranch was not the same as it became to be in august 1969. Its a common story, the changes of behaviour was a gradual process, Manson didn’t use aggregation until later on. It happens all the time, We get involved with people or groups of people by being attracted to how they present themselves, but over time their true colors begin to emerge and for some people its not so easy to get out of it.

  35. Cybele Moon says:

    Paul, just for interest, Diane Lake in her book joined Manson back in 1967 and said he had raped and beaten her on many occasions which others witnessed. Leslie joined in the fall of 68 . The murders occurred less than a year later. I think there was violence shown during her time there. Linda Kasabian witnessed it also and knew the family were involved in other criminal activities during that time also.

  36. Paul says:

    Cybele did Diane account when these beatings occurred? Leslie has been honest in admitting that she wasn’t fazed about Diane’s age at that time but accounts from various different members state that Manson became more aggressive and physically abusive towards the occurrence of the crimes.

  37. Cybele Moon says:

    Paul, I’m sure it probably did escalate in the year prior to the murders (the time LVH was around). And no one can know for sure if someone is being totally honest or upfront or even if their memories may be hazy. Many of us will have “selective” memories of certain traumatic events.

    Yes there has been much controversy over how guilty she is compared with the others obviously as her supporters have shown- though her victims still remain dead. I still think the majority of people are inclined to feel that of all of them, though she was young, she had a more “normal” upbringing and potential.

    Many kids do make mistakes don’t get me wrong and we all learn from them if we are lucky. But we are accountable, and we all make choices. An addict makes the choice of first picking up a drink or drug. It’s a risk situation. But upon dancing we end up having to pay the piper. If we lie down with the devil also applies which is literally and figuratively what they all did with Manson.

    I think LVH has a good chance of being released partly because she has probably changed, is remorseful and is now elderly- and also she has had a very diligent lawyer these last few years. But on saying that I’m still not sorry for the time she has spent behind bars. She cannot blame anyone but herself for this.

  38. Peter says:

    That is an interesting point that she was convicted of felony murder because there the first degree level of the offense hinges on the commission of the underlying felony – the burglary. So basically, the Helter Skelter motive doesn’t even apply to her conviction, it’s just a garden-varoety burglary that resulted in a death. That was a decision the prosecution made in order to obtain a conviction. So it’s interesting that this motive- that the prosecution rejected as a tactical decision- is now used as the excuse for keeping her incarcerated indefinitely

  39. Paul says:

    Leslie doesn’t blame anyone but herself for HER actions, the board made that clear this time so the governor cannot cheat his way out so easily like Brown did.

  40. Cybele Moon says:

    Paul, I finally read the transcript. its good she takes responsibility. Of course It doesn’t change anything.
    It’s not up to me to forgive or feel sorry for her nor do I feel a need to support her freedom, though to a point I do feel sorry for her in that I understand that sometimes people do change and if they do it must not be easy to be brutally honest with yourself, knowing what you did and having to carry that terrible burden. If she is released I do not wish her ill but my sympathies will still always remain with the families of the victims.

  41. Lee says:

    No Justice, I like the way you think! I find it repulsive the individuals frothing at the mouth wanting that murdering bitch out. If she had looked like poor Barbara Hoyt, there would be crickets chirping…..in other words nobody would give a shit! It’s as if these people are fantasizing about a young LVH and they associate her with her look of 1969. I’d love to hear what a psychologist would have to say about that. She needs to stay in prison for life, but sadly, I’m sure that won’t happen.

  42. Fred Bloggs says:

    Lee says:
    If she had looked like poor Barbara Hoyt, there would be crickets chirping…..in other words nobody would give a shit!

    Oooh, I don’t know Lee. Babs was pretty cute herself.
    Amusingly, you obviously feel the Leslie @@vibes@@ in the looks dept.

    It’s as if these people are fantasizing about a young LVH and they associate her with her look of 1969

    Careful Lee. You might start giving people the idea that you’re angry that someone as pretty as Leslie could throw it all away for a cause she believed in……

  43. Peter says:

    A cause she believed in.

    In the same conversation where she was explaining Helter Skelter to her mother after she was bailed out of jail in July, she also told her that the dogs and cats talked to her using actual words.

  44. Columbo says:

    She was obviously confused, out of her head and delusional then, because everyone knows cats can’t talk.

  45. Paul says:

    “Of course It doesn’t change anything.” If your referring to her crimes then yes that won’t changed but neither has her rights as a inmate serving life with parole. She has changed considerably since 1969 and she has done everything she can to better herself and make good contribution to society. It does mean something because I know if she tried to place a substantial amount of responsibility Manson, you would pull her up on it and try to use it against her.

  46. snoop says:

    Lee seems to really resent leslie more than the others. I get the distinct impression that Lee hates women due to rejection by them.

  47. Cybele Moon says:

    Come on people lets not get personally insulting on a discussion forum. A few of those opposing the release of the Manson clan, come from their own place of sorrow and have also known first hand what a violent crime can do to families and loved ones – forever- You can come to terms with it but it still remains a lifetime of what if’s. We are all entitled to an opinion.
    Paul, it’s good she is trying to make a positive contribution to society. Most of us try to do that without having participated in gruesome murders. But I do agree she has probably changed over the years. And I still think that a life sentence with parole seems like such an oxymoron. Why is it called a life sentence?

  48. Fred Bloggs says:

    Peter says:

    In the same conversation where she was explaining Helter Skelter to her mother after she was bailed out of jail in July, she also told her that the dogs and cats talked to her using actual words

    She probably believed that too. Many of us believe things that someone else may find ridiculous.

  49. Paul says:

    Cybele, the definition of a life sentence varies from state to state or country to country. In California you receive seven to life for murder, Leslie is charged with two counts of murders so she is serving 14-life with the chance of parole. Considering small sentences that a lot of murderers receive in California, Leslie definitely does not warrant for death or life without parole, and you can’t hold her co-defendants actions against her.

  50. Cybele Moon says:

    small sentences for murder? That’s no right either and I guess it depends on the circumstances of the murder. No matter what, I feel their crimes were among the worst type of murders and life without parole would have been just for all of them as they all went with the intent to kill, and create terror and fear for the average citizen which was part of Manson’s plan and thus the terrorist aspect Tate has mentioned. They did just that, most especially for the victims.
    However, as you say, that’s not what they got so we have to accept if they are freed, though I hope not all of them.

  51. Paul says:

    You say the crimes, not Leslie accountability of those crimes, so your just trying to hold her co-defendants action on her and using that to justify her further incarnation. Cybele if you are going to describe the murders and how they indented to kill please use the facts in Leslie favour as well, because that just an unfair bias, she indented to kill even though there is no proof she actually physically killed or that in her state of mind she believed the murders were right and that death was only an illusion, no point going in circles with this again.

  52. Cybele Moon says:

    oh boo hoo poor Lesley – yes you are going in circles. According to her supporters she was a naive (!?) and unwilling(!?) participant who was dragged along to an extremely horrific murder as you like to intimate. She wanted to go Paul!! She knew what they were up to. Who cares if she hesitated slightly once she was there or was one iota less guilty as per death blows. She went along with the program. According to Diane Lake she said it was fun to stab the woman.
    At any rate all I can give you is that according to law she is eligible which I have. Let that suffice.

  53. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    I wonder if LVH’s story about talking cats and dogs was before or after Son of Sam.

  54. Paul says:

    Cybele, don’t be so childish, your better than that I think. Your going in circles as much I have, if your going to describe the murders, then use all the facts that just the ones you want to include, filtering out any points that could work in Leslies favour isn’t going to get either of us in better ground. You don’t care if she was hesitant but I know Cybele you would be using it against her if she asked to go or wrote the words on the wall, the little things are only important to you if they incriminate her further, absolutely double standards on your part, you cannot only account parts that you want.

  55. Cybele Moon says:

    I apologize for my sarcasm. But Paul, I don’t feel that sorry for her and I think I have explained why I don’t before. It’s the way I feel. You feel that she wasn’t “as bad” as the others. Ok I get that and I get her remorse now. Whether or not she was not as bloodthirsty as her cohorts or didn’t attend the first night of murder, doesn’t change much for me as, let’s say for speculations sake, we will never know if Mrs. Labianca might have escaped out a window if Leslie had not been there to help out the other two members of her clan. She contributed to the terror and mayhem, and believes it had to happen,period I will always believe that they all should have received life without parole. I don’t find that childish at all.

  56. Paul says:

    I’m not asking you to feel sorry for her, you have made that clear and I am going interested in gathering a loud of sympathy for Leslie but I am countering people who either unware of the law or don’t cover the whole aspects of the crime, including the parts that both incriminate and exonerate Leslie. But I will say I again you can’t only include the “little things” that incriminate Leslie and try to pull me up on it for doing what you have done yourself just the other way around.

  57. Paul says:

    *and I am not interested in gathering a loud of sympathy for Leslie

  58. Cybele Moon says:

    fair enough!! I do get your point of view.

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