LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, TUESDAY, AUGUST 17, 1971,
1:30 P.M.
-- oOo --

THE COURT: People against Watson.

Let the record show all jurors are present, all counsel and the defendant are present.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I am through with Mrs. Kasabian, your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes.

LINDA KASABIAN,
Resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

THE COURT: All right. You are still under oath, Mrs. Kasabian.

For the record, state your full name.

THE WITNESS: Linda Kasabian.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BUBRICK:

Q: You told us just before the noon hour break that you used, I think you said, all sorts of hallucinogenic drugs about 50 times?

A: Yes, that is right.

Q: Can you tell us where and when these uses occurred?

A: All 50 times?

Q: No, I mean in what areas of the country did they occur in, if more than one?

A: Well, the first time was in Miami, Florida.

Q: Let me approach it this way and maybe we can help out; I understand you are now 22; is that right?

A: Yes, that is right.

Q: So in 1969 you were 20; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Can you tell us when it was that you left home for the first time for any extended period of time?

A: When I was 16.

Q: And where did you go when you were 16?

A: First I got married.

Q: And how old were you when you got married?

A: 16.

Q: Whom did you marry?

A: Robert Peaslee.

Q: And do you remember when you married Mr. Peaselee?

A: I think it was in August. I am not quite sure of the date.

Q: Of 1965?

A: Yeah.

Q: You were what? Sixteen then; is that correct?

A: Yes, right, yes.

Q: And where did that occur?

A: In my hometown.

Q: In New Hampshire?

A: Yes.

Q: And did you separate thereafter?

A: Yes.

Q: When?

A: In December.

Q: Of what year?

A: Same year, '69, - I mean, '65.

Q: And where were you when you separated?

A: In my hometown, Milford.

Q: Had you lived there during the period of that short marriage, then?

A: Well, yeah, we lived together.

Q: In New Hampshire?

A: Yes.

Q: All right; and where did you, after you separated, what, if anything, did you do?

A: I moved in with my father in Miami.

Q: In Miami?

A: Yes.

Q: And did you live with your father there?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Did you live in any commune in Miami, Florida?

A: When I lived with my father?

Q: Or while you were in Florida?

A: Yes.

Q: And where in Florida did you live in a commune?

A: Well, then it wasn't really, you know, thought of as a commune situation. I had lots of people staying with me at different times, on Miami Beach, in my own apartment.

Q: But it was in your apartment; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: In a building?

A: Yes.

Q: And you lived there with other people?

A: Well, they lived with me, more or less.

Q: All about the same age group?

A: Yeah.

Q: Mixed company, boys and girls?

A: Yeah.

Q: Was it drug oriented in any way?

A: Yes.

Q: What did you use, if you remember?

A: Grass; I was taking speed at the time; uppers, diet pills.

Q: When you say uppers, what do you mean by that, Mrs. Kasabian?

A: Diet pills.

Q: Diet pills?

A: Yeah; and I took morning glory seeds once.

Q: When you took speed or these diet pills, as you called them, Mrs. Kasabian, were they taken orally?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you ever take it any other way?

A: In Miami?

Q: Well, in Miami, let's stop there.

A: No, not in Miami.

Q: How long did you live this style of living in Miami?

A: For about, let's see -- June, July, August -- about four months, I guess.

Q: Now, you got to Miami in what, 1965?

A: Yeah, that's the date I'm not quite sure of, the date.

Q: All right; the letter part of 1965, I take it?

A: Yeah, in December.

Q: Then you stayed and you lived the way you described until what, early 1966?

A: Well, no, I didn't really start taking drugs until probably around May or June of '66.

Q: Where were you when you started to take drugs?

A: Well, I started taking grass when I was living with my father; then right after that I moved out and started taking drugs heavier.

Q: Well, when you say with your father, you mean while living in your father's home?

A: Yeah.

Q: And, I take it, not with him, you know, sharing marijuana with him?

A: No.

Q: And then you moved out, as you have told us now, and these other people moved in with you, is that correct, in Miami Beach?

A: Yeah.

Q: And you lived that way about three months or four months or so?

A: Well, approximately between May and June till September, right after school began.

Q: Did you go to school while you were in Miami?

A: Well, I attended a hairdressing school for about three days and that was --

Q: That was it?

A: Yeah.

Q: How did you sustain yourself in Miami Beach?

A: Excuse me?

Q: How did you live while you were in Miami?

A: I had a job for a while and --

Q: How long?

A: -- switchboard operator.

Q: How long?

A: For a month; I guess; I'm not really sure how long.

Q: And then thereafter how did you manage to live?

A: Selling drugs or just people would give me money. I had a boyfriend.

Q: All right, and after you lived in Miami for that period of time, as you have indicated, where did you next go to, Mrs. Kasabian?

A: I went back to home, to my mother's house.

Q: In New Hampshire?

A: Yeah.

Q: How long did you stay that time?

A: Probably for about two months.

Q: Now, are we still in the year 1966, then?

A: Yes.

Q: And then when, after that two months period was over, where did you go?

A: Into Boston.

Q: And what sort of a living style did you have in Boston?

A: Well, I had a boyfriend and moved into his apartment. We stayed there for probably about a week. I remember it was around Christmastime and we went to New York.

Q: Christmas of 19 --

A: 1966.

Q: '66?

A: Yes.

Q: And then to New York in what? Early '67?

A: Right around Christmastime, the first of the year.

Q: Did you live with anybody other than your boyfriend in the Boston area?

A: In the Boston area?

Well, there were other people in the apartment.

Q: Was it again a sort of a life style?

A: Yes.

Q: Where many of you were living together?

A: Yes. It was like a college situation where kids went to school and shared apartments.

Q: Were you going to school then?

A: No.

Q: Then you went into New York?

A: Yes.

Q: And with whom did you go to New York?

A: With this guy I was living with in Boston.

Q: And how long did you stay in New York?

A: Let's see. Probably about a month.

Q: Do you remember what month that would have been of 1967?

A: January.

Q: January of '67?

A: Yes.

Q: And did you live alone with him?

A: No. I stayed with him for, I don't know, about a week, I guess, and then he went back to Boston and I lived with a number of different people.

Q: Again in apartment buildings or --

A: Yes.

Q: -- structures in the New York area?

A: Yes.

Q: And how long would you say you lived with the second group in New York?

A: I stayed at one place for about a week. I stayed at another place for approximately a week and that is about it, I guess.

Q: Were there drugs being used in the New York area?

A: Yes.

Q: Where you lived?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: What drugs were you using?

A: I was taking acid and smoking grass.

THE COURT: You say acid. That is LSD?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: How long would you say you lived in New York?

A: Probably about a month.

Q: Does that cover the entire period that you have been there now?

A: I don't understand.

Q: In New York you apparently moved or lived at least with several different people.

A: Yes.

Q: That covers just the one month period of time we are talking about.

A: Yes.

Q: January of '67?

A: Yes, approximately.

Q: And then where did you go after that?

A: Went to the Haight-Ashbury district of San Francisco.

Q: That is in San Francisco?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember when you arrived there?

A: No. Somewhere I guess near the end of January, sometime in February.

Q: Still 19, early 1967?

A: 1967.

Q: Who did you go there with if you remember?

A: A person that I met in New York.

Q: Just the two of you?

A: No. There was two other boys. One was the driver of the car who was driving the car across country for somebody, I guess. I don't know exactly what that situation was. And just another person that we picked up.

Q: Were there then the four of you?

A: Yes.

Q: That made the cross-country trip?

A: Yes.

Q: After you got to Haight-Ashbury, what did you do?

A: Well, we stayed overnight in Lagunitas or something like that, and went into the Haight-Ashbury district and I sort of got separated from the people that I was with and I met this other person.

And, you know, he asked me to go to his apartment and I went and he turned me onto speed with a needle for the first time.

Q: You were now injecting speed?

A: Yes.

Q: This is again in what? 1967?

A: '67, yes.

Q: And was there anybody else that was living there with you when you were with this man who turned you on speed?

A: I didn't follow your question.

Q: Were just you and this man who turned you on speed living together?

A: Were there any other people?

Q: Yes, any other people living there at the same time.

A: Well, there was people in and out all the time, but I think it was just him and I really. It was his apartment and I was staying there and living. Every now and then somebody would come and stay overnight or spend the day. I think it was just us.

Q: How long did you live there in that fashion?

A: Not very long. About a week.

Q: After that what did you do?

A: I got arrested.

Q: In San Francisco?

A: Yes.

Q: Incidentally, was this the first time then that you came to California in this 1967 period that you have been telling us about?

A: Yes.

Q: How long were you confined for any period of time in '67?

A: Yes. I don't remember how long. I would say I was about two weeks.

Q: Was it for drugs of some sort?

A: It was for -- well, I was 17 and they told me that I wasn't legally able to be my own person, so far as I needed a guardian or my parents and curfew, something to do with curfew, and being in the presence of a drug addict. One of the other persons was a drug addict, known drug taker.

Q: You mean a person taking something other than speed?

A: Yes, I think he was on heroin.

Q: A heroin addict?

A: Yes.

Q: What happened after you were released from custody?

A: They put me on a plane and sent me back to New Hampshire.

Q: How long did you stay in New Hampshire at this time?

A: About a month again.

Q: We are still in what? Mid-'67?

Something like that?

A: Yeah, about around March I will say.

Q: And then did you thereafter leave New Hampshire again?

A: Yes.

Q: Where did you go?

A: I went into Boston.

Q: And where did you live in Boston, if you remember?

A: Let's see. I found this person that had taken me to New York the first time and I stayed with him a few days and then I got into a group of bicycle type people, refer to them as bikers.

Q: You mean motorcycle drivers?

A: Yeah.

Q: There in the Boston area?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, I think you told us you married a Mr. Kasabian?

A: Right.

Q: And when was that?

A: September 20 -- I'm not positive.

Q: In '67?

A: Of '67.

Q: So you are not telling us things that preceded your second marriage to Mr. Kasabian; is that right?

A: Yes, right.

Q: Did you travel with this bikers group?

A: Well, what do you mean by travel?

Q: Well, did you move around; did you move around the Boston area or did you stay in Boston?

A: Stayed in Boston, Revere, that area.

Q: Where did you live in Boston and the Revere area?

A: Well, when I first met them I lived with one certain person in the group and he lived in Boston, in the Back Bay District; and then we got an apartment in Revere and then we split up after that.

Q: After you split up, what did you do?

A: Well, we got busted again.

Q: What does that mean?

A: Arrested.

Q: Arrested?

A: Yeah.

Q: For what?

A: Being present where drugs were found and, oh, I think I had some capsules of speed in my pocketbook.

Q: And this is still '67?

A: Yeah, it was in May of '67.

Q: May?

A: May 1st, I think , something like that.

Q: Were you confined for any period of time?

A: No.

Q: What did you do after release from this arrest?

A: Well, I had a probation officer and she told me that I wasn't allowed in the Boston area and I wasn't allowed to hang around with long-haired type people or associate with these kind of people, drug-taking-type people; so I went back to my mother's house and I didn't live in the house, I lived in the next town and got a job.

Q: Did you meet Mr. Kasabian in the Boston area?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Is that where you married him, in Boston?

A: Yeah -- well, no, not in Boston; no, in Lawrence.

Q: In the Boston area, was it, however?

A: Yeah.

Q: After you were married to Mr. Kasabian, did you continue to live in the Boston area?

A: Yeah.

Q: How long?

A: Well, we had lived together before we got married, legally married; then after we were married, we stayed there about a month.

Q: Were you using any drugs while with him?

A: Yeah.

Q: What kind?

A: We smoked a lot of grass and hashish, took acid, mescaline; I think we snorted speed once, that's about it.

THE COURT: By "snorting," you mean taking it through the nostrils?

THE WITNESS: Right.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: How long did you and Mr. Kasabian continue to live in the major Boston area then?

A: After we were married?

Q: Yes.

A: For about a month.

Q: And then what happened?

A: We went to California.

Q: And where in California did you come?

A: Well, we landed in San Francisco in --

Q: I'm sorry?

A: We bought a truck and drove down to the Los Angeles area.

Q: How did you come across country?

A: By plane.

Q: Now, what period of time are we talking about now?

A: Around Halloween, October.

Q: '67?

A: Yes.

Q: And what did you do in the Los Angeles area, then, from '67?

A: Oh, I don't know; we found an apartment in Venice or Santa Monica, I'm not quite sure of the district that it was in; and we lived.

Q: How long did you live in that area?

A: Until Tanya was born.

Q: When was that?

A: March 3rd -- a little bit after she was born, a couple of weeks.

Q: '68?

A: '68, yeah.

Q: And what happened after her birth?

A: We moved to Topanga Canyon, into a tent; and we stayed there probably for three weeks to a month, I guess, I'm not sure how long.

Q: So that's now April of -- March, April of '68?

A: '68, yeah.

Q: Just you and Mr. Kasabian, Robert Kasabian?

A: No, there was another person.

Q: Who was that?

A: Gary; his name was Gary.

Q: All right; and after the tent, living in the tent area in Topanga Canyon, what happened after that?

A: We moved -- wait, my husband, Bob, and Gay went to Canada looking for some land to homestead and I went back East; and I stayed back East until, I think, May, sometime in May, I'm not sure.

Q: Of '68?

A: Yeah.

Q: When you say "back East," back to your mother's?

A: To my mother's and to my mother-in-law's; and sometime in May, I'm not quite sure, but he called me and I went to Washington, Seattle Washington.

Q: And where did you live in Seattle?

A: We lived in the rain forest.

Q: With other people?

A: Yes.

Q: Was it a commune type of living, again?

A: Yeah. Well, at first we lived in a house that we rented with one other person and then we found a better situation further out into the woods, into the rain forest; and that was like a really righteous type commune living.

Q: Was that anywhere close to Goldmier Hot Springs?

A: It was Goldmier Hot Springs.

Q: How long did you live there?

A: I will say a month, I can't really remember how long.

Q: And after that where did you go, if you remember?

A: Yeah, we drove down -- we decided to go to New Mexico, so we drove down from there and we stopped off in Los Angeles for -- myself, I was there probably three, two, three, four days, something like that; and then on the New Mexico.

Q: And that is still the summer of '68 now?

A: Yeah, I would say around July, August, something like that.

Q: Where did you go in New Mexico, Taos, or that area?

A: The area of Taos, yes.

Q: And did you live in a commune in the Taos area?

A: Yeah.

Q: And was Joe Sage there at that time?

A: When I first got there?

Q: Yes, in '68.

A: No.

Q: How long did you stay there?

A: All that year and I left in April. Well, I left one time at Christmastime for a couple of weeks -- Christmas vacation, sort of thing, and then I left permanently for a while in April of '69.

Q: Were drugs being used in the Taos area, the Taos commune?

A: Oh, sure.

Q: What kind?

A: All kinds, except for hard narcotics.

Q: Then you say you left; was it the end of '68, December?

A: Yeah, I went back East at Christmastime.

Q: Is that back to your mother's?

A: Yes.

Q: How long did you stay there?

A: A week, two weeks, something like that, just visiting.

Q: Then did you come back to Taos?

A: Yes.

Q: How long did you stay the next time?

A: Till April.

Q: Then did you go back to New Hampshire?

A: Yeah.

Q: Is that where you were when you got a call from Robert?

A: Yes.

Q: And then you came back to California; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: And back to the Topanga Canyon area?

A: Yes.

Q: And that's when you found Robert with Charles Melton and the other couple?

A: Yes.

Q: And you got back here when, do you remember?

A: The end of June; June 27, 26th, something like that.

Q: I take it you had had Tanya with you all the while you were traveling back and forth, had you?

A: Oh, yeah.

Q: Did you bring anything else back from Boston, do you remember?

A: Luggage, clothing, things like that.

Q: Is that what you brought back then?

A: Yes.

Q: And then you stayed with your husband in the trailer -- well, in a truck, I think you called it?

A: Yeah.

Q: It was in a truck, was it?

A: Yes.

Q: Can you give us your best idea when you arrived, in the latter part of June, was it, '68 -- I'm sorry, '69?

A: '69, yeah; I think I have stated something like June 26th or 27th, and that's accurate.

Q: So it was the latter part of June; right?

A: Yeah.

Q: And how long had you known Charles Melton, Mrs. Kasabian?

A: The first time I met him was when we were living up at Goldmier Hot Springs.

Q: In Seattle, Washington?

A: Yeah.

Q: That would have been what, in '68?

A: Yeah -- so, when was it -- yes, I'm sorry, '68.

Q: Did Charles come down the coast with you and your husband when you left Seattle and came down to California?

A: Yes.

Q: Anybody else come down with you at that time?

A: Yes. There were a lot of people.

Q: How many would you say?

A: One, two, three, four, five, six -- I would say about seven or eight. I am not sure.

Q: Were you all in the group that lived together up at Goldmier?

A: No.

Q: People you just met on the way down?

A: Well, what it was, when we were living in the Los Angeles area, you know, when Tanya was born, before she was born, we were living in a commune situation and this one person who had gone to New Mexico thought it was a nice place, so he brought Charlie Melton and a few other people up there. It was those people plus myself and Bob and Tanya.

Q: That came down to Los Angeles?

A: Yes.

Q: So that when you came back in 1969 and saw Charles Melton, by that time he had been an old time friend?

A: Yes.

Q: Had you known the other people living in this converted truck before you met them in '69?

A: Let's see. I met Jimmy and Julie that time when we came down from Seattle and I didn't really know them that well.

Q: About the same time you met Charles Melton?

A: Well, after I had met Charles Melton.

Q: I take it you then lived with your husband in the converted truck for the period between what? The 29th or so June until the 4th of July?

A: Until the 4th of July, yes.

Q: In that period of time, in that seven- or eight- or nine-day period of time, Mrs. Kasabian, did you ever see Gypsy at the truck?

A: Just on the 4th of July.

Q: That was the first time you ever saw her there?

A: Yes.

Q: Had you ever seen her talking to Charles Melton before then?

A: No.

Q: Did you see her talking to Charles Melton on the 4th of July?

A: Yes. They spoke.

Q: Well, was it sort of a casual thing, just a meeting of the two people out in front of the truck?

A: Well, there was a group of us there and we were sitting inside the truck for a while and then, you know, late Gypsy and I sat out in front of the truck on the sand.

Q: Was Gypsy one of the group in the truck?

A: Excuse me?

Q: Was Gypsy one of the group that was in the truck?

A: Well, no, but when she came she sat in the truck with the rest of the people, with us.

Q: Was that the first time, the very first time you had ever seen her?

A: Yeah.

Q: And then you say you sat out on the sand or outside the truck with Gypsy; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Had you had some difficulty with your husband by this time?

A: Yes.

Q: And when had that arisen?

A: Well, it was sort of coming at a peak, it seemed to me. That morning he told me before she came that he really didn't want me to go with him and, you know, I could just burst it that way. It was out front.

Q: So that you came there the latte part of June and July the 4th, again there was a separation; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Then you talked with Gypsy, I think you told us yesterday, and she told you about the family; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: That was the first time you had ever talked to Gypsy; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you tell her that you were looking for a place to stay?

A: No.

Q: Do you know who raised the subject of the family, when you first started to talk about the family?

A: When she first came in, she was mostly speaking to the other people, like they were asking her, you know, "Hey, where's Charlies? What's Charlie doing?"

And she would say like, "Charlie just isn't anymore. He is dead," or things like that. I really didn't understand her.

But then, you know, later when it was just her and I talking out in front of the truck on the sand, she started telling me things.

Q: What did she tell you out in front?

A: Well, that they were just a group of people, you know, living together and that they all loved each other and there was children and that they planned to go to the desert and that there was this guy named Charlie and he was really beautiful and something about -- I don't know.

Q: Did she tell you anything about this person Charlie?

A: It is hard to remember her exact words right now.

Q: Did she ever tell you that she thought that he was a God?

A: A God?

Q: Yes.

A: I don't remember those words right now.

Q: How about the words "Jesus Christ"? Did she ever tell you that he was Jesus Christ?

A: Not that I can recall now.

Q: Did you go down to the ranch that very first day, July the 4th?

A: Yes.

Q: At about what time was it when you got here, if you remember?

A: Around sunset.

Q: About what time would that be? Do you have any idea?

A: I don't know what time.

Q: And who was there -- how did you get from the truck down to the ranch?

A: Hitchhiked.

Q: How far was it? Do you have any idea?

A: In miles?

Q: Yes.

A: I don't know.

Q: How long did it take you to get there?

A: I don't know that either. It took a while.

Q: Did you take Tanya with you?

A: Yes.

Q: Anything else?

A: My bag of clothing.

Q: How big was that, or what did it include?

A: Well, it was a Mexican straw bag about this long and about this tall and about that wide. (Indicating.)

THE COURT: About 18 by 18 by about 10 inches?

THE WITNESS: I guess so.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Did it have anything but clothing in it?

A: My clothing and Tanya's clothes. I brought in some LSD. Is that what you are trying to get at?

Q: No, I haven't got to that yet. We will get there.

A: I brought some Mexican saddle blankets that Charlie Melton had given to me. That is all.

Q: And when you left the first time did you take everything that you owned in that truck to the ranch with you?

A: No. I left some things behind.

Q: Behind? Like what?

A: Articles of clothing that I didn't want.

Q: That you didn't want?

A: Yes. I think I left my sleeping bag -- no, I didn't have a sleeping bag at that time.

Q: But you then took everything that you did want with you when you went from the truck to the ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: And this was before you knew whether you would be accepted at the ranch or not; is that correct?

A: Well, I felt confident that I was going to be accepted.

Q: That you would be?

A: Yes.

Q: Had Gypsy told you what sort of a life that was going on at the ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: Did she tell you what the girls did?

A: No, she didn't get down to the details of what was going on.

Q: Did you ask her what the girls did?

A: No.

Q: Did you ask her how they existed or how they lived?

A: Not that I can recall.

Q: Weren't you interested in knowing how they got along?

A: I am sure I was. I didn't know, though. I just accepted what she said. It sounded really good.

Q: What did she say about the manner in which they got along?

A: Just that they were really together and they all loved each other.

Q: Aside from love, did she tell you how they ate?

A: No.

Q: Did she tell you how they got the money to live on?

A: No.

Q: And you didn't ask her any of those questions then?

A: No.

Q: When you got to the ranch, do you know who you first met? Do you remember that?

A: Some girls in the kitchen. I remember seeing Little Patty.

Q: Did you go directly to the kitchen in the ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: Anybody else that you remember?

A: I can't really remember. There was a lot of girls there but I just really distinctly remember Little Patty.

THE COURT: "Little Patty"?

A: Patty, yes.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Now, do you remember when you met Mr. Watson?

A: Yes.

Q: Charles Watson?

A: Yes.

Q: Was that the first day that you got there?

A: Yes.

Q: About what time was it?

A: It was night. It was dark.

Q: Had you met any other men at the ranch before you met Mr. Watson?

A: I remember Gypsy took me into the saloon and I don't know who, I think there was two other guys in there.

Q: Do you remember who they were?

A: I think one of them was -- I don't know his name, but he used to come over every now and then and helped Tex with his dune buggie, parts and things like that. He was a mechanic kind of a person. I don't really know his name.

Q: You never got to know him by any nickname or anything of that nature?

A: No.

Q: And then is that when you met Tex or Charles?

A: Yes, when I left the saloon.

Q: When you left the saloon?

A: Yes.

Q: Who were you with when you left the saloon?

A: Gypsy.

Q: Gypsy?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember what Charles was doing when you met him?

A: No. He was just standing there.

Q: Out near the saloon?

A: I think it was at the end of the boardwalk.

THE COURT: Boardwalk?

THE WITNESS: Yes, boardwalk, toward the kitchen.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: And then did you talk with him?

A: I don't remember talking at that point.

Q: Did Gypsy introduce you to him?

A: I guess so. I don't know.

Q: You don't remember that either?

A: No.

Q: How long were the three of you together, if you remember?

A: I don't know. I am sure not very long.

Q: Incidentally, what had happened to Tanya by this time?

A: Well, before I went into the saloon, before it really got dark, Gypsy took me into the trailer where the other children were and I left my clothes there and Tanya was there with two other babies in there.

Q: Then you came back out, did you?

A: Yes.

Q: That is when you made this little tour with Gypsy?

A: Yes.

Q: Then I think you told us this morning you and Tex then went off somewhere; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: And how long were you gone?

A: I don't know. I have no conception of time then or even now.

Q: You told us yesterday, I think, Mrs. Kasabian, that there was a discussion about some money.

A: Yes.

Q: Now, did that occur before or after you went off with Tex?

A: After.

Q: You mean first you went off with him and then you came back; is that correct?

A: No. It was while I was with Tex right after -- we left and then we made love and then we talked. So however you are wording it, that is how it was. I don't know how to word it your way.

Q: Were you still out there wherever you made love, in the shack or building or something like that, when you had the conversation about the money?

A: Yes.

Q: Was there anybody else in there?

A: No, not to my knowledge.

Q: And do you remember how the subject matter of the $5,000 or so came up?

A: I don't know that conversation. I just know that he asked me where I had come from and what I was doing and I told him and I told him about the money.

Q: Didn't you ask him how the group lived and where they got their money?

A: Not to my knowledge.

Q: Didn't he tell you that everybody who joined the family had to turn over all their earthly possessions to the family?

A: I don't remember that, no.

Q: Didn't he tell you something about a girl by the name of Wild Berry who turned over $10,000 to the family?

A: No.

Q: DIdn't he tell you something about a fellow by the name of Crowe from whom they got $2,500?

A: No, sir.

Q: And then didn't you tell him that "I know where I can get $5,000"?

A: No.

Q: Didn't you then go and return the next day with the $5,000?

A: The next day I went and I got the money, yes.

Q: Didn't you tell Charles that you knew where there was $5,000?

A: Yeah.

Q: And that you would contribute that to the family?

A: Yeah.

Q: Do you remember what you did the remainder of that evening?

I take it you and Charles separated then.

A: Yes.

Q: And did you spend the night on the ranch then?

A: Yes.

Q: And then the next day, which would have been what, July the 5th?

A: Right.

Q: You went back up to the converted truck --

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: -- did you?

And who did you go back with on that occasion?

A: With Mary and Gypsy and Tanya.

Q: And Tanya; you took Tanya along?

A: Yeah.

Q: You went up to the truck and you got what, the $5,000?

A: Yeah.

Q: Anything else?

A: Yes.

Q: What else did you get?

A: A knife.

Q: And anything else?

A: No.

Q: Was Mr. Melton at the truck at that time?

A: The time --

Q: The time, now, when you were getting the $5,000.

A: When I actually took the money?

Q: Yes, when you actually took the money.

A: No.

Q: Had you seen him about the truck at any time while you were in the Topanga Canyon area?

A: Not at the truck, no.

Q: Well, did you see him in the vicinity of the truck?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you tell him you were going to the truck to get the money?

A: No.

Q: Did you tell that to -- was your husband Robert Kasabian in the vicinity of the truck?

A: They weren't really in the vicinity of the truck; they were at Topanga Canyon Plaza, which is really a ways from it.

Q: Well, what I meant, did you see them in the vicinity of the truck as you went to the truck for the money?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you say anything to them?

A: I remember sitting down and talking to them.

Q: To Charles and your husband?

A: Oh, wait -- yeah, I spoke to Bob right at the truck and -- no, that was the day before, I'm sorry -- no, we all sat down by a creek at Topanga Canyon Plaza.

I don't know what we talked about, but I knew in my heart what I was doing to do.

Q: You knew you were going to take the $5,000?

A: Yes.

Q: But you didn't say anything to Bob or Charles Melton?

A: Not in words, no.

Q: Did you say anything to them, anything about the $5,000?

A: No.

Q: Then I take it you did pick up the $5,000; right?

A: Yes.

Q: And you say a knife?

A: Yes.

Q: Is that the buck knife that you have --

A: The buck knife.

Q: -- that you have identified here in court?

A: Yes, it was.

Q: How long did you have that, Mrs. Kasabian?

A: I don't understand that.

Q: How long had you had that knife?

A: Had I had that knife?

Q: Yes.

A: I don't understand what you are saying.

Q: Well, how long had you owned that knife?

A: It wasn't my knife.

Q: I see; it was a knife you had seen --

A: It was a knife that I had brought into the ranch, but it wasn't my knife. It was my husband's knife.

Q: Well, but you brought it to the ranch from the truck?

A: From the truck, yes.

Q: That's what I mean: How long had you seen it in the truck?

A: Seen it in the truck?

Q: Yes, when you first got there in the end of June --

A: Yes.

Q: That's the first time you ever saw that knife?

A: Yeah.

Q: Where in the truck was it?

A: When I stole it?

Q: Yes.

A: I don't know. I think it was just hanging on the wall, maybe in a case, I'm not sure.

Q: Did you carry the knife with you before you got back to the ranch?

You carried it with you, obviously, from the truck to the ranch?

A: Yeah.

Q: Then after you got to the ranch did you continue to carry it with you?

A: Yes, for a while.

Q: Where?

A: On my person.

Q: All right; in a purse or a bag or something like that?

A: I made a little fur -- I forget what you call it -- case.

Q: Like a scabbard, something to hold the knife?

A: Yeah, there's another name for it; I can't think of it right now.

Q: What did you use it for?

A: I can't recall ever really using it.

Q: Do you remember telling the last court you used it to peel potatoes?

A: Yeah, perhaps. I can't really recall using it, at the moment.

Q: Now, before you left the trailer, then, you took the knife, the $5,000, and anything else you can remember?

A: No, that was it.

Q: Now, didn't you ask Charles or your husband to dig up a stash of LSD?

A: No, that's why I got confused, because I think that happened the day I left, on the 4th, but I'm not sure right now. It is confused, the sequence is confused.

Q: Do you think you might have asked him to dig it up for you and you might have brought it back on the 5th?

A: Yeah.

Q: You had brought the acid from where?

A: From where?

Q: Yes.

A: When I arrived at the ranch?

Q: No, when you arrived at the truck.

A: When I came back from New Hampshire; is that what you mean?

Q: I don't know. Is that where you got it?

A: I don't understand your question.

Q: How long had you had the acid that you brought back to the ranch with you?

A: How long had I had it?

Well, I got it when I left New Hampshire.

Q: So, then, you carried it across country; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: And you deposited that in this covered truck with your other clothing when you arrived; is that correct?

A: No, we buried it.

Q: You buried it?

A: Yeah.

Q: Who buried it?

A: I think Bob did, I'm not really sure.

Q: But you weren't there when it was buried, were you?

A: No, I don't think so.

Q: So you wouldn't have known where to recover it the next time?

A: Right.

Q: So you'd have had to ask Bob to recover it for you?

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: And he did, I take it; he gave it to you?

A: Yeah.

Q: And you brought that back to the ranch with you; is that correct?

A: Yeah.

Q: Do you remember what you did with it when you got to the ranch?

A: I gave it to somebody, I'm not really sure who.

Q: The same person to whom you gave the money?

A: I'm not sure who I gave the money to.

Q: Was it Mr. Watson?

A: I don't think so; I don't know.

Q: How about Mr. Manson?

A: No, I didn't give it to Charlie.

Q: Do you think it was one of the women?

A: I think so, yeah.

Q: Sadie?

A: No, I think it was Leslie, but I'm really not sure.

THE COURT: Lester?

THE WITNESS: Leslie.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Did you bring any other clothing with you on July the 5th when you went up and recovered the money and the acid, anything else that you brought back?

A: I don't think so.

Q: Did your husband or Mr. Melton ever come down to the ranch to inquire about the money?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did they talk to you about it?

A: No.

Q: Did you talk to them about it?

A: No.

Q: Did you see them at the ranch?

A: One day I did, yeah.

Q: Did you talk to them at all?

A: No.

Q: What did you see, the truck, Bob, your husband, or Mr. Melton?

A: No, I saw the truck and I think I saw Bob walking, I'm not sure.

Q: But you never went out to see him?

A: No.

Q: So I take it you never told him that you had the money?

A: Excuse me?

Q: You never told him, then, that you had the money?

A: No.

Q: You didn't -- did you think it was all right to steal the money or to take the money?

A: No.

Q: Did you think it was wrong?

A: Yes.

THE COURT: Whose money was this?

THE WITNESS: Well, it was an inheritance of Charles Melton's.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Do you remember when it was you first saw Mr. Manson?

A: Yeah, the day that I stole the money.

Q: That would have been July the 5th.

A: Yeah.

Q: Do you remember about what time of the day or night it was?

A: It was just shortly after we arrived back at the ranch.

Q: That would have been what, noon hours?

A: I don't know.

Q: It was light, I take it?

A: Yeah.

Q: Do you remember where you met him?

A: Yeah.

Q: Where?

A: In back of the ranch.

Q: In the back of the ranch?

A: Yeah.

Q: Anybody else there with him?

A: Yeah; Snake and Brenda; myself; Mary; Gypsy and Tanya.

Q: Did you have some conversation with Manson?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you talk for a while?

A: Yeah, a little bit.

Q: Do you remember what your impressions were of him at that time?

A: I don't know. I guess I thought he was really beautiful, I really don't know now.

Q: Well, you actually thought he was a godly person, didn't you?

A: Yeah, he looked like Jesus, his face.

Q: And by that you thought he was the Messiah, didn't you?

A: I don't know if I thought it at that point.

THE COURT: Mrs. Kasabian, while you are on that stand, should you get tired or want a drink of water or something, will you let me know?

THE WITNESS: Sure.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Mrs. Kasabian, do you remember telling the court the last time that as a result of the conversion and observations that you thought Mr. Manson was the Messiah?

A: At this point, the first meeting?

Q: Yes, the first meeting.

A: That was probably my impression, I really can't -- I don't know, I can't feel -- I have so many opinions of him now it is hard to feel what I felt then.

Q: Pardon?

A: I have so many different opinions fogging how I really felt then, that it is hard to say really what my impression was then.

Q: But you do have a recollection of feeling that he was a godly man?

A: Yeah, I remember his face and that he looked like Jesus, his hair.

Q: And that he was a Messiah come again?

A: Yeah, I remember those words coming out.

Q: And that was at or about the time of your first meeting with him, wasn't it?

A: Yeah.

Q: Do you remember what you did, you know, as a daily routine on the ranch when you lived there, Mrs. Kasabian?

A: Cooked, served the men, you know, got things for them, washed clothes, took care of babies, went on garbage runs.

Q: Well, let's stop there.

Were the babies well cared for?

A: Not really, no.

Q: Well, Tanya was one of the group that was being cared for at the time, wasn't she?

A: Yes.

Q: And she wasn't being cared for by you?

A: No.

Q: Did you object to the manner in which Tanya was being taken care of?

A: I'm sure I did; I know I did.

Q: Did you say anything to anybody?

A: I may have, but I can't really remember right now if I did.

Q: Did you ever say anything to Mr. Manson about the way Tanya was being taken care of?

A: Perhaps, I don't know; it's really foggy.

Q: You mean you think you might have criticized Mr. Manson for anything he did?

A: No, I don't think I really voiced anything; I'm not sure, though.

Q: You mean you might have had some inner feeling but didn't express it; is that correct?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you ever make an effort to pick up Tanya and leave?

A: Not that I can recall.

Q: Well, weren't you considered about the baby's welfare?

A: Of course.

Q: Well, what made you stay there, then?

A: I don't know that now.

Q: Was it some sort of a fascination for Mr. Manson?

A: I don't know. I kept -- at different times I kept like hearing and feeling something telling me that I should leave.

Q: When did you first start having those feelings?

A: Well, I had one feeling -- I forget, I think it was the day that Sadie and I came back; I'm not sure of the date, but I just remember driving down the road to the back house and Tanya was just in the middle of the road running and screaming, and it was really awful.

Q: When was this?

A: I'm not sure.

Q: Well, was it awful enough for you to want to pick her up and just leave?

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: Why didn't you do it?

A: I don't know.

Q: People came to the ranch or came to the family and left the family, didn't they?

A: Yeah.

Q: You were pretty much free to come and go as you wanted to do, weren't you?

A: I don't know.

Q: At least, you never made any effort to leave to see what might happen, did you ?

A: I guess not.

Q: Now, you told us about what you called as creepy crawl missions; do you remember that?

I think you used that expression.

A: Yeah.

Q: What did they consist of, Mrs. Kasabian?

A: Creeping and crawling into somebody's house and stealing things.

Q: Did you think that was all right?

MR. BUGLIOSI: It assumes a fact not in evidence, your Honor.

THE COURT: I take it -- did you ever go on any of these creepy-crawl missions?

THE WITNESS: Yeah, in a car.

THE COURT: Overruled.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Did you think it was all right?

A: At the time.

Q: At the time?

A: Yes.

Q: You thought it was all right to steal?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember what you would steal?

A: What I stole?

Q: Yes.

A: I stole credit cards.

Q: Anything else?

A: Not that I can remember.

Q: Any money that you took?

A: Other than the five thousand?

Q: Yes, other than that five thousand.

A: Not that I can recall.

Q: How would you dress when you went on these creepy crawl missions?

A: We always dressed in black at night.

Q: Would you always go out at night?

A: No. I mean --

Q: Creepy crawl, I am talking about.

A: No.

Q: I am talking about creepy crawl, was that always at night?

A: Well, in a sense when I stole the money, that was creepy crawl. That was during the day.

Q: Well, you mean when you took it from Mr. Melton?

A: Yes.

Q: The converted truck?

A: Yes.

Q: You considered that a creepy crawl?

A: I don't know it yet.

Q: You just stole the money from Mr. Melton, didn't you?

A: Yes.

Q: Just walked into the truck and took it out?

A: Yes.

Q: All right. And you had been to that truck before?

A: Yes.

Q: So you knew where the truck and its contents were; right?

A: Yeah.

Q: And, in effect, you knew Mr. Melton --

A: Yes.

Q: -- and you knew your husband was there?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: Is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: When you went out on the other missions with Sadie, or whoever you went with, you didn't know where you were going?

A: No.

Q: You didn't know the people who lived in the houses or owned the cars, did you?

A: No.

Q: So that you were going to take whatever you found of value; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember about how many times you went out on creepy crawl missions?

A: That one time and I am trying to think -- the next day after that, Sandy and I went out.

Q: Can you give us any idea what period of time you are talking about?

A: Around the end of July, I guess. I am not really sure.

Q: You went out with Sadie, did you ?

A: Yes.

Q: How many times, if you remember?

A: I think just that one time.

Q: And then again with Sandy?

A: Yes.

Q: And how many times with Sandy?

A: One time.

Q: Do you remember what areas you went to?

A: With Sandy?

Q: Yes.

A: Went down to the beach, the Venice beach. That was about it.

Q: Aside from dressing in black clothing, Mrs. Kasabian, did you ever take any knives along on your creepy crawl missions?

A: I don't know if I had that knife on me then or not. I mostly carried --

Q: Did you see Sadie or Sandy carry a knife on creepy crawl missions?

A: I can't recall.

Q: Did you ever see anybody carrying a gun on creepy crawl missions?

A: No.

Q: Do you remember going on a creepy crawl mission the night of August the 8th, the night before the Tate affair?

A: No.

Q: Do you remember going out with Sadie Atkins?

A: The night before?

Q: Yes; into the Encino area.

A: Encino?

Q: Yes.

A: I don't know what area we went into.

Q: Do you remember taking something out of a new Chevrolet parked at the curb in Encino?

A: No.

Q: You don't remember anything like that?

A: No.

Q: Did you ever take things other than -- strike that.

Did you ever panhandle for money? Do you know what that expression means?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you ever do anything like that?

A: At the ranch, you mean while I was living at the ranch?

Q: While you were living at the ranch.

A: Yeah.

Q: You would go into town to do that, wouldn't you?

A: I can remember one instance.

Q: Where did you go, if you remember?

A: On Venice Beach.

Q: Who did you go with?

A: With Sandy.

Q: Just that one occasion that you can recall?

A: Yes.

Q: The orders or the things that were done on the ranch were as a result of meetings that you would have with Mr. Manson at night; is that correct? At night he would tell you what he wanted done the following day?

A: Sometimes.

Q: Did anybody other than Mr. Manson ever tell you what was to be done or who was to do it, do whatever was to be done on the ranch?

A: Not that I can recall.

Q: Everybody sort of looked to him for their orders, didn't they?

A: Yes.

Q: So far as I saw, yes.

Q: Did he do, that is, Mr. Manson, ever do anything around the ranch?

A: So far as what?

Q: Did he do any work?

A: Not work that I did, that I saw him do.

Q: There were people who were helping Mr. Spahn run the ranch; weren't there?

A: With the horses?

Q: Yes.

A: Yes.

Q: Did Mr. Manson ever do any of the work in connection with the horses?

A: No, that that I saw.

Q: There was a lot of work going on with dune buggies, wasn't there?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Mr. Manson work on the dune buggies?

A: Not that I ever saw.

Q: Did Mr. Watson work on dune buggies?

A: Yes.

Q: Pretty much?

A: Yes, most of the time.

Q: Did he do anything other than work on dune buggies so far as you know?

A: Concerning what? Labor?

Q: Anything else that would occupy his time?

A: Well, he used to eat and sleep and make love and walk around and dance and, you know, sing.

Q: Wasn't he pretty much the mechanic at the ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: Take care of all the mechanical equipment?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, I think you told us this morning that it was also the policy of Mr. Manson that only people with driver's licenses drove cars; is that correct?

A: Yeah.

Q: Wasn't it also the policy at the ranch that the girls would always do the driving?

A: Always?

Q: Yes. Didn't he want the girls to drive whenever you went out?

A: I don't think so. I mean, I don't know.

Q: Didn't he tell you if you were stopped it is easier for a girl to talk their way out of a ticket or something with an officer than a man?

A: I don't recall him ever saying that.

Q: I think you told us also yesterday that Manson told you there was no such thing as right or wrong; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Did he repeat that a number of times?

A: It was like one of the, you know, their favorite sayings, his favorite saying.

Q: Told you that everything was all right?

A: Yes.

Q: No sense makes sense?

A: Yes.

Q: Then he told you something about you won't get caught if you don't have thought in your head?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you ever ask him what that meant?

A: No, not that I can recall.

Q: What did it mean to you?

A: I don't know. I don't even know if I really thought about it.

Q: You heard his discussion about helter-skelter, didn't you?

A: Yes.

Q: And did you believe in helter-skelter?

A: Yes.

Q: You thought it was so; is that correct?

A: Sure.

Q: And when he told you that the family would survive by living in the bottomless pit, you thought that was true, didn't you?

A: Yes.

Q: And he told you the bottomless pit was out in the desert somewhere; is that correct?

A: Uh-huh, yes.

Q: And that when the revolution was over, the family would be the only ones who survived; is that correct?

A: White people.

Q: Yes, but the family would be the only ones of the white race to survive?

A: Yes.

Q: I take it you believed all of this?

A: Yeah, I did.

Q: Did anybody else other than Mr. Manson express any philosophy to the family?

A: I don't understand.

Q: Did anybody else talk to the family about a philosophy?

A: Not that I can recall.

Q: Helter-Skelter was Mr. Manson's idea, wasn't it?

A: Yeah.

Q: He was the one who always talked about helter-skelter?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did anybody else talk about helter skelter that you can remember?

A: It was always being mentioned everyday.

Q: By the family members?

A: Yes.

Q: In other words, everybody in the family believed in him?

A: Yes.

Q: What would you say the feelings of the women in the family were toward Mr. Manson?

A: Total devotion, loyal.

Q: Idolized him?

A: Complete loyality, yes.

Q: He was sort of a God to them all, wasn't he?

A: Yes. Everybody looked up to him.

Q: As a God?

A: I don't know as a God.

Q: Or a godly man?

A: Yeah.

Q: As a Messiah?

A: Yes; I did.

Q: I think you told us that shortly before the Tate incident Mr. Manson came back from the Big Sur; is that correct?

A: Yeah.

Q: And he told you that now was the time for helter skelter?

A: Yeah.

Q: And that was before the Tate affair; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, you know helter skelter involved violence, didn't you?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you tell anybody, did you tell Mr. Manson that you didn't want to be part of any violent scheme?

A: No.

Q: You knew that it involved the killing of people, didn't you?

A: But I didn't know that that was our part in it.

Q: What did you think your part was going to be?

A: Well, that when helter skelter came to the city, when the blacks and whites were getting it in the city, and the city was burning, we were supposed to go in the dune buggies, with the children and bring them back to the home in the desert.

Q: Incidentally Manson had a particular feeling about children, didn't he?

A: Yes, I guess so.

Q: He loved children, didn't he?

A: I guess so.

Q: Didn't he tell you that the future of the race depended upon the children?

A: The future of the race?

Q: The future of the race. In other words, if you killed the children nobody else was going to be left.

A: I don't remember those words.

Q: What did he say about taking care of children?

A: You mean within the ranch itself?

Q: I am talking about the children at the ranch.

A: We were supposed to really watch them.

Q: Take care of them?

A: Yes.

Q: See that no harm came to them?

A: Right.

Q: On the night of the 9th, the night that you went to the Tate residence, do you remember about what time of the day or night it was that Charlie Manson talked to you for the first time about going out?

A: After supper.

Q: About what time would that have been?

A: Oh, it was dark. I don't know the exact time.

Q: Then he asked you to get a change of clothes, did he?

A: Yes.

Q: And asked you to get some knives?

A: A knife.

Q: A knife?

A: Yes.

Q: And a driver's license?

A: Yes.

Q: Was there anybody else there with you when he talked to you?

A: I don't think so.

Q: And did you get the clothes that he told you to get?

A: He didn't tell me what specific clothes.

Q: He told you to get the changes of clothes?

A: Yes.

Q: And did you get them?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you get one for yourself?

A: Just for myself, yes.

Q: Is that all you got at that time? Just the change of clothes for yourself?

A: Yes.

Q: I see.

And then you got a knife from Larry?

A: Yes.

Q: And your driver's license from whom?

A: From Brenda.

Q: Brenda?

A: Yes.

Q: Where did you meet Mr. Manson again before you left?

A: At the end of the boardwalk.

Q: Was there anybody else there at that time?

A: Yes, Brenda was.

Q: Did you see any other changes of clothing being brought to the car?

A: Being brought into the car?

Q: Yes. I think you told us that everybody had a change of clothes.

A: Yes.

Q: Now, you had yours; is that correct?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: And when Sadie came over, did she have a change of clothes?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did she bring her own?

A: I guess so.

Q: Where was her clothing when you saw it for the first time?

A: I think she was holding it. I am not sure.

Q: All right. How about Patricia Krenwinkel?

A: She had hers too.

Q: How about Mr. Watson?

A: I guess he had his. I don't remember seeing his.

Q: Did you all throw your clothing in the car?

A: Yeah, I think I laid it on the floor.

Q: This car had no back seat; is that correct?

A: Right.

Q: Just had what; a slab seat in the front and nothing in the back?

A: A slab seat?

Q: Well, you know, as opposed to bucket seats, just one continuous seat.

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember how you got in the car?

A: How I got in the car?

Q: Yes, where in the car you sat.

A: On the passenger side.

Q: In the front?

A: Yes.

Q: Who was in the rear?

A: Sadie and Katie.

Q: And you say Mr. Watson drove?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you hear anybody tell Mr. Watson to get a driver's license?

A: No.

Q: You told us you didn't know whether he had one or not; is that correct?

A: No.

Q: Did you hear Mr. Manson say anything to Mr. Watson about driving?

A: No.

Q: Didn't he tell him, "I want the girls to drive"?

A: Not that I heard.

Q: How long had you seen Mr. Watson the evening of the Tate affair just before leaving?

A: Just before leaving?

Q: Yes. When had you last seen Mr. Watson before leaving?

A: I don't remember. I remember seeing him at suppertime but other than that I can't account for him.

Q: Where did you eat that evening? Do you remember?

A: I think we ate in the saloon.

Q: Is that the building next to the kitchen?

A: Yes.

Q: Did the whole family eat there, if you remember?

A: Yes, I think so.

Q: You all get in your car. Now, you drove up to the Tate residence, I think, as you told us.

At that time you each had a weapon, each had a knife, did you?

A: Yes.

Q: And you said you thought you were going on a creepy-crawl; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: What made you think that, Mrs. Kasabian?

A: Well, because of what Tex said.

Q: What did he say?

A: Well, that he had been to this house before and he knew the layout of the house.

Q: Did you ask him why you were taking knives and a gun?

A: No. I figured it was sort of be like a holdup, stickup kind of thing.

Q: You know what you use knives for, don't you?

A: I don't understand.

Q: Do you have any idea what a knife can be used for?

A: You mean for killing people?

Q: Yes.

A: I didn't think of it at that time.

Q: How about the gun?

A: No. I never really related that anybody was going to be killed.

Q: You know a gun is something that is an instrument of death too, don't you?

A: Yes.

Q: And in order to be an instrument of death it would have to be loaded; is that correct?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you ever think about whether or not the gun was loaded?

A: No.

Q: Did you ever look to see whether it was loaded?

A: No.

Q: Did you ask anybody why the gun, why the knife?

A: No.

Q: You were just content to go along with them; is that correct?

A: I don't know about content. I didn't ask any questions.

Q: You didn't voice any opposition?

A: No.

Q: You didn't say, "I don't want to go"?

A: No.

Q: You didn't pass out or faint or anything like that?

A: No.

Q: At the thought of going?

Yet, you had never been on a creepy crawl with knives before, had you?

A: No; I don't know if I was carrying a knife the night that I creeped into the car.

Q: Well, you had never been with anybody else on a creepy crawl mission using knives and a gun?

A: No.

Q: Did it strike you as being usual?

A: I don't know.

Q: Your relationship with Tex Watson wasn't a bad one, was it?

A: Excuse me?

Q: Your relationship with Mr. Watson wasn't a bad one?

A: No, it wasn't bad.

Q: Now about with the girls?

A: No.

Q: Did it occur to you to ask anybody where you were going?

A: No.

Q: And you didn't?

A: No.

THE COURT: Mr. Bubrick, when you go to a new topic, let me know.

MR. BUBRICK: I can stop here.

THE COURT: You can stop here?

MR. BUBRICK: Sure.

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will have our afternoon recess at this time.

Once again, do not form or express any opinion in this case; do not discuss it among yourselves or with anybody else and please keep an open mind.

(Recess.)

THE COURT: People against Watson.

Let the record show all jurors and counsel and the defendant are present.

Mrs. Kasabian, you are still under oath. State your name, please, for the record.

THE WITNESS: Linda Kasabian.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Mrs. Kasabian, let me just back up a minute before we get off into some discussion of the incident that occurred in the Tate house.

Getting back to Mr. Manson's philosophy, you told us that he used phrases like, you know, "No sense makes sense," and things of that nature.

Did he ever say anything about killing?

A: One time I heard him say something about if you are willing to be killed, then you should be willing to kill, or vice versa, something to that effect.

Q: On how many occasions did you hear him make that statement?

A: Only once, to my recollection.

Q: How often would these philosophical discussions take place?

A: Well, it was like everyday life was, you know, in a sense philosophical. Anything that anybody said was philosophical. Usually around suppertime when everybody was together.

Q: Would Manson do all the talking?

A: The majority of it, the talking.

Q: As it pertained to philosophy now I am talking about.

A: Yes.

Q: He did the talking about the philosophy?

A: Well, everybody talked about what Charlie talked about because they were Charlie but he did the main talking.

Q: What did you mean when you said they were Charlie?

A: That was one of the things they they used to say that, in other words, "I'm Charlie and Charlie is me,"

Q: Is this a part of the philosophy that Mr. Manson preached?

A: Yeah.

Q: And everybody in the family seemed to accept that?

A: Oh, yeah.

Q: When he said that, "If you are willing to be killed, then you should be willing to kill," did anybody say that killing was wrong?

A: No.

Q: Did anybody say anything at all to him about killing?

A: No, not that I heard.

Q: Did you ever say anything to him about killing?

A: Before the two nights?

Q: Yes.

A: That that I can recall.

Q: Well, when you say not that you can recall, does that mean you may have but you don't remember now, or that it didn't occur?

A: I don't think it occurred, no.

Q: No, you never said, "I can't kill anybody, Charlie"?

A: Well, I said it the second night.

Q: Well, I meant before you went up to the Tate house?

A: No, nothing like that.

Q: You never told him that?

A: No.

Q: I'm sorry -- you never told him that you disapproved of that portion of his philosophy?

A: No.

Q: Did you believe that portion of his philosophy as you did the rest of his philosophy?

A: I never really dwelled that much upon the things that he said, because so much it, you know, just didn't make sense; but them no sense made sense, and I was confused about a lot of things at this time.

Q: But this was part of the helter-skelter philosophy, also, wasn't it?

A: I guess so, yeah.

Q: And you believed in the helter-skelter philosophy?

A: Yeah.

Q: Now, you have told us, then, before I interrupted you here, that you drove up to the Tate residence, if we can refer to that now, on the night of August the 9th; and there were four of you in the car; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: And you were in the front seat and Watson was driving the car; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: This was Mr. John Swartz' car?

A: Yes.

Q: It was a Ford, a yellow Ford; is that correct?

A: Yeah.

Q: Or some kind of a yellow car?

A: Yeah.

Q: Now, you took some period of time to get from the ranch to the Cielo address, did it not?

A: Yeah.

Q: About how long, have you any idea?

A: Maybe an hour, I don't really know for sure.

Q: Did you have any difficulty finding it?

A: Did what?

Q: Did Charles have any difficulty finding it?

A: No, I don't think so.

Q: Did he go directly to it?

A: Yeah.

Q: Didn't lose his way at all going there?

A: No.

Q: Had you ever been to this address before?

A: No.

Q: Had Mr. Manson ever taken you by and pointed it out?

A: No.

Q: Had Sadie ever taken you by to point it out?

A: No.

Q: Did anybody do any directing as Mr. Watson drove?

A: No.

Q: Did Sadie ever tell him where to go?

A: No.

Q: Did anybody say anything on the trip up, other than Mr. Watson?

A: No, not that I recall.

Q: Well, was there complete silence in the car for this hour --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- that it took to get there?

A: Yeah, it seems to me it was.

Q: Now, I think you told us on the way up you were told to wrap the knives in some sort of a garment; is that correct?

A: Yeah, I'm not quite sure what it was I wrapped it in, but it was a piece of cloth.

Q: Who told you to do that?

A: Yes.

Q: You are sure it wasn't Sadie?

A: I am positive.

Q: Incidentally, what was Sadie's relationship to the rest of the girls in the family?

A: I don't understand.

Q: Was Sadie anything out of the ordinary, you know, on the ranch?

A: I don't know. There seemed to be a conflict concerning Sadie.

Q: A what?

A: A conflict concerning Sadie.

Q: Sadie and who else?

A: I don't know if it was the first day, but around the first time when I got in there, between her and Leslie.

Q: How about between Sadie and Mr. Manson?

A: Not that I ever saw, but the conflict between Sadie and Leslie was about Manson.

Q: About Manson?

A: Yes.

THE COURT: Did Manson have a particular girl or did he have all the girls?

THE WITNESS: All the girls.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: As a matter of fact, Mr. Manson pretty well directed the sex lives of everybody on the ranch, too, didn't he?

A: You mean telling who to make love to who?

Q: Yes.

A: No.

Q: Weren't there sort of group experiences?

A: Yes.

Q: When Manson was present?

A: Yes. There was one that I recall.

Q: Didn't that occur at Manson's direction?

A: Yes.

Q: Getting back to this other incident on the way up to the Tate house, you did wrap the knives in something; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: What did you do with the knives after you wrapped them?

A: I think I just placed them on the floor. I am not really sure.

Q: Did you ask anybody why you were wrapping knives?

A: No. I was told to wrap them.

Q: What sort of knives were they?

A: There was my buck knife and the knife that Larry gave me and the third knife that was similar to the knife that Larry gave me.

Q: Your buck knife is a knife with a folding blade; correct?

A: That is right.

Q: And the other two knives were they the folding blade type or did they have a permanent extended blade?

A: Permanent blade.

Q: Were they kitchen kitchen knives?

A: No. They were more like hunting knives.

Q: Did you ask Mr. Watson why he wanted you to wrap them?

A: I didn't ask why. I was told.

Q: Weren't you curious about why you would want to hide knives?

A: Curious?

Q: Yes; curious enough to want to ask somebody about, you know, why should we be afraid of having these knives seen by police?

A: No.

Q: Never occurred to you?

A: No. I didn't ask.

Q: Did you think it was something illegal?

A: Yes. I knew the gun was.

Q: Yet you wrapped the gun too, didn't you ?

A: I think so, yes.

Q: In the same package as the knives?

A: I think so, yes.

Q: Didn't you ask Mr. Watson why he wanted the gun wrapped with the knives?

A: No.

Q: Didn't you ask him where you were going or why you needed the weapons?

A: No.

Q: Were you afraid of asking anything?

A: Perhaps. I didn't really know that.

Q: I think yesterday you told us something about your being programmed, I think is the word you used, not to ask why?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: Is that the expression you used?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember using that word?

A: Yes.

Q: What did you mean by that word?

A: By programmed?

Q: Yes.

A: Being told, I guess, you know, like ordered. Somebody tells you what to do, you know.

Q: Who did the telling?

A: Concerning what?

Q: Of not asking, I suppose.

A: Oh, Charlie.

Q: Manson?

A: Yes.

Q: And did he do the ordering?

A: Concerning --

Q: Any orders that were given on the ranch?

A: Yes, the majority of the orders, yes.

Q: Did he tell you not to ask why?

A: Yes.

Q: Just to do what he told you to do?

A: Just -- he used to say "Never ask why. Love will never die."

Q: You felt that whatever he told you to do was the right thing to do; is that correct?

A: I guess so.

Q: You didn't question anything he told you to do, did you?

A: I never questioned it, no.

Q: You just did whatever he asked you to do; correct?

A: Yeah.

Q: And so when he told you to get in the car and go with Tex, you did?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you hear him tell Tex to get in the car and drive?

A: No.

Q: Did you hear him say anything to Tex?

A: The first night?

Q: The first night.

A: Not that I can recall.

Q: I think you told us yesterday that you saw a conversation, or at least you saw Tex and Mr. Manson talking outside the car just before you left?

A: Yeah.

Q: Correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you overhear any of that conversation?

A: No, not that I can remember.

Q: You also said something about, I think just before you left, Mr. Manson said something about "Leave some sign, something witchy"?

A: Yes.

Q: Is that w-i-t-c-h-y as a witch?

A: Yes.

Q: Witchy?

A: Yes.

Q: What did he mean by that, if you know?

A: Now, I really don't know.

Q: Wasn't the word "witch" something that was used frequently around the family?

A: We referred to ourselves as witches.

Q: You mean the female members of the family?

A: Yes.

Q: Did that include you?

A: Yes.

Q: You referred to yourself as a witch?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did it have any particular meaning to you?

A: It was more of a game to me than anything, really.

Q: Well, when he said, you know, "Leave some sign, something witchy," did you know what he wanted you to do?

A: No.

Q: Well, did you ask him, "What do you mean?"

A: No.

Q: Didn't he say, "You girls know what I mean"?

A: Yes.

Q: Well, did you know what he meant?

A: No, I didn't.

Q: Have you ever left any signs or any witchy things, if I can use that expression, among yourselves out at the ranch?

A: Yeah.

Q: What did you do when you thought you were leaving witchy things or signs?

A: Well, I remember when we were living out in Devil's Canyon past the waterfall --

Q: Excuse me; is Devil's Canyon a part of the Spahn Ranch?

A: I don't know if it is part of it. It is across the street from it.

Q: But close in proximity, then?

A: Yeah.

Q: What happened at the water --

A: Just to mark the way to where our campsite was we made little things out of beads and rocks and feather and things like that and just hung them on the trees.

Q: So that it would sort of outline a path --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- back to Devil's Canyon; is that it?

A: Yes.

Q: Were there anything other than trinkets that you have described that you would use in this witchy sign or witchy thing?

A: Not that I can recall.

Q: Now, I think you told us that you left the ranch somewhere after dinner; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: When it was dark?

A: Yes.

Q: I know you have told us over and over again time really didn't mean anything to you, but do you have any idea what time it might have been by the clock, or anything like taht?

A: About an hour after we ate; and it was dark when we ate, so I don't know.

Q: Did you see any clocks in your drive from the ranch to the Tate residence?

A: No.

Q: Well, I take it you did what you were told to do, you wrapped the knives and the gun in the cloth as you drove up to the Tate house?

A: Yes.

Q: Incidentally, about what portion of the journey did you do that in?

A: Right at the beginning, just before the lights on Topanga Canyon Boulevard.

Q: You wrapped them up and just put them under the seat; is that it?

A: I don't know if it was under the seat or on the floor; I'm not sure.

Q: Did you ever ask Mr. Watson why he was driving the car?

A: No.

Q: Did you tell him it was a violation of Charlie's rules to drive a car without a license?

MR. BUGLIOSI: It assume a fact not in evidence.

THE COURT: Yes, sustained.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Well, had Charlie ever told him anything about the women driving the car?

A: Yes.

Q: And he said only people with driver's licenses were to drive the car; is that correct?

A: Yeah, but if I remember correctly, it was referring to the certain car.

Q: Was there more than one car on the ranch?

A: Yeah.

Q: Other than the Ford?

A: Yes.

Q: Well, did he say that if you drove the specific car that only a licensed driver should drive that?

A: I'm not sure of his exact words, but I know it was in connection with a little white car.

Q: What sort of a car was the white one?

A: Kind of a car?

Q: Yes, what kind of car was it, if you know?

A: I know it was a station wagon, and it was similar to the car that I took to New Mexico.

Q: Who did it belong to, if you know?

A: At the time I didn't know, but now I know it belonged to Gary Hinman.

Q: Now, you drove, then, as I think you told us, from the ranch to that Cielo Drive; is that correct?

A: Excuse me?

Q: You drove to the Tate house?

A: Yes.

Q: And you never asked any questions on the way up there?

A: No.

Q: And then you say when you got to the area you parked the car alongside of a telephone pole; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, do you remember whether you passed any houses --

A: Yes.

Q: -- on the drive up to the area?

A: Yes.

Q: Were there lights on in any of these houses?

A: I don't remember noticing it when we drove up. I just remember when I ran down.

Q: You noticed the lights on on the way down?

A: No, I don't notice the lights; I just noticed that there were houses there.

MR. BUBRICK: I'm sorry, your Honor, I wanted to see if the aerial photographs would help me.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Mrs. Kasabian, I invite your attention to what has been identified here as People's Exhibit No. 25.

Now, as I understand it, the car was parked somewhere in the upper left-hand corner of the picture; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: That's where there is a notation; is that correct?

A: Yes, that is.

Q: Now, I think you said that the car was parked alongside of a telephone pole, is that correct, just before some wires were cut, now?

A: Yes.

Q: And that Mr. Watson got out of the car; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: And that some telephone wires dropped, or you saw some wires come down?

A: Yes, that's right.

Q: Now, did you hand Mr. Watson anything when he got out of the car, just before the wires were cut?

A: No.

Q: Did you hand him a pair of wirecutters?

A: No.

Q: Did you see him take anything out of the car when he got out?

A: I don't think so.

Q: Did you see or hear anybody hand him a pair of wirecutters?

A: No.

MR. BUBRICK: I am sorry, may I -- excuse me, may I get that small picture?

Q: Mrs. Kasabian, I show you People's 74 for identification; it is a photograph that apparently has a telephone pole with a metal box on it, and then a metal pipe with an object on one end of it.

Do you notice that?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you see that when you were seated in the car just before the wires were cut?

A: Yes.

Q: Did anybody tamper with that or touch that -- I am referring now to the object in the center of the picture, the object on the pipe.

A: Did anybody touch it?

Q: Yes, did anybody touch it or do anything with it?

A: Not that I saw.

THE COURT: Excuse me, was 74 used in our trial here? 74, I don't think so.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Let me take a look at that.

THE COURT: I don't think so.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No, 74 is a close-up of 73, and I didn't mark 74.

You can mark it now, if you want. It is just a close-up.

MR. BUBRICK: May I use 73, then, your Honor?

THE COURT: Either one, I don't care, because I have no record of 74; I just want to make sure we have our exhibits straight.

MR. BUBRICK: May I withdraw 74, then, and invite the witness' attention to 73, which has been, I think --

THE COURT: Yes, for identification.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Now, do you recognize that, Mrs. Kasabian?

A: Yes.

Q: That's the same telephone pole and pipe object we have been talking about; is that correct?

A: Yes it is.

Q: And did you see them on the night that you were in the car, the night of August the 9th?

A: Yes.

Q: You saw the objects on the top of the telephone pole in the center of the page?

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: Now, I asked you a moment ago did anybody touch that?

A: Not that I saw.

Q: And you didn't see Mr. Watson do anything to that object, did you?

A: No.

Q: Now, let me invite your attention again to 25, again now at the upper left-hand corner of the photograph; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Is this where the car was parked?

A: Yes.

Q: What did you do? Get out of the car and walk up that roadway?

A: Yes.

Q: About how long a walk is that, would you say?

A: In distance?

Q: In distance if you can estimate.

A: I can't really estimate.

Q: How long did it take you to walk up that incline?

A: Just a few minutes.

Q: Did you pass all the houses there depicted in the picture?

A: We must have. I don't remember seeing the houses.

Q: Do you remember were there any lights on on the way as you walked up?

A: Not that I can remember.

Q: Can you point out on the photograph you have in front of you now, Mrs. Kasabian, the area where you came across the gate?

A: The gate?

Q: Let me ask you first: Can you see the gate on the photograph?

A: I think so. I am not real sure. Yes, I can see it.

Q: Where would it be?

A: Right there.

Q: Now, you are pointing to the object in just the upper center of the photograph. It looks like a little brick wall.

A: Something like that, yes.

Q: Let me invite your attention, Mrs. Kasabian, to people's 8, which is a schematic behind you.

I invite your attention to this little solid area that I am pointing to now.

Does that appear to be the brick area that you have referred to in the photograph?

A: It is really hard to tell.

Q: I am pointing now to the area you referred to a moment ago in the upper portion of the photograph.

A: I think that is the gate.

Q: Was there more than one gate on this driveway leading up to the residence?

A: No.

Q: You only saw one gate across the driveway?

A: Yes.

THE COURT: Will you circle that portion, Mr. Bubrick, please. Do that with a red pencil with an arrow to that and mark it "Gate L.K."

Thank you.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Let me invite your attention now to the schematic again, Mrs. Kasabian, particularly to what has been identified as a writing which says "Path defendants took to get around gate."

Do you notice that up here?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you find a gate stretched across that walkway or driveway?

A: Yes.

Q: And did you get around it by going off to one end and climbing over it?

A: Yes.

Q: Was there some sort of an incline that allowed you to climb over it?

A: Yes.

Q: What was there, if you remember?

A: Just an embankment and barbed wire we could crawl through.

Q: Do you remember about how far in distance that was from the area where you had parked the car?

A: Not far at all.

Q: The car is parked apparently up here are the telephone pole. You never removed the car from that area?

A: Yes, we did.

Q: Where did you go? Where was it moved?

A: Down to the bottom of the drive, all the way down to the other street.

Q: When did you do that?

A: Right after Tex cut the wires.

Q: You cut the wires, then you moved the car further on down the street?

A: Yes.

Q: In the upper right-hand corner there appears to be some houses.

Did you go anywhere in that vicinity?

A: No. After the wires were cut?

Q: Yes, after Tex moved the car.

A: No.

Q: Can you point out the area on the picture where the car was moved to or would it be off the photograph?

A: Where the car was moved to?

Q: Yes, after the wires were cut?

A: Down the road right around the corner.

Q: Maybe I am misleading you, Mrs. Kasabian. I don't mean to.

When I asked you to look at people's 73, the one with the photograph, isn't this the spot where you first stopped the car and the telephone wires were cut?

A: Yes.

Q: In that what is depicted on 73, the area in the upper left-hand corner of people's 25?

A: No, I don't think so, no.

Q: I'm sorry. Then I misunderstood.

In other words, then this area is somewhere in the middle of this photograph; is that correct?

A: Yes. I believe it is right here.

Q: The area that we have circled now marked "Gate L.K.," that is where the wires were cut; is that correct?

A: Yes.

(missing)

Q: And that was all right with you; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: I think you told us, Mrs. Kasabian, that you all crossed and you approached the house, is that correct, you crossed around the fence?

A: Yes.

Q: And you all continued up that walkway; is that correct?

A: I can only account for myself and Tex walking towards the house at one point.

Q: Where was Sadie and Pat?

A: I don't know.

Q: When the car was driven down the hill and parked, did the four of you walk back up?

A: Oh, yes.

Q: You saw them with you then?

A: Yes.

Q: And when you all got across the embankment around the closed gate, were there four of you at that time, if you know?

A: Yes.

Q: And as you walked up from the embankment towards the house, were there still four of you?

A: I can just remember myself and Tex walking.

Q: Were you in the lead with Mr. Watson? You and he walking together?

A: Yes.

Q: And as far as you knew Sadie and Pat behind?

A: I guess so. I can't recall where they were.

Q: Was anything being said by anybody?

A: No.

Q: Did you see any lights on in this house as you were approaching?

A: I remember the light on the garage.

Q: Any other light that you remember being on?

A: No.

Q: Well, eventually I think you told us yesterday that you got to the front of the house and Mr. Watson told you to go around and look for open doors, windows, or things like that.

A: No, we didn't go to the front of the house. We were walking -- I remember I had to jump a hedge or something like that to walk to the back of the house and Tex went to the front side of the house.

Q: When you and Tex separated, did you see where Sadie and Linda were?

A: Sadie?

Q: Sadie and Pat? I am sorry.

A: No.

Q: Did you see them at any time other than as you have described prior to the time that the victims came out of the house?

A: I don't understand your question.

Q: Well, did you see them at any time that evening after you and Mr. Watson separated when you jumped the hedge and walked around to the back?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you see them again at any time before any of the victims came out of the house?

A: Yes.

Q: When?

A: I saw Katie.

Q: When did you see her?

A: Before the screams and I was back at the car where the man had been shot.

Q: Now, I think -- do you remember what sort of a car the Parent boy was driving?

THE COURT: Excuse me, the jurors are having trouble hearing you.

THE WITNESS: Sorry.

What was your question?

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Do you remember what sort of a car the parent boy -- well, the boy that was killed was driving?

A: No.

MR. BUBRICK: Well, excuse me -- may I just have a second?

Q: We have agreed that you might refer to that, Mrs. Kasabian, as a white Rambler, so that when we talk about cars there will be no confusion between the Ford and the car at the top of the hill, the Rambler; do you understand?

A: Okay.

Q: All right.

Now, did you see either Sadie or Patricia before you saw the Rambler?

A: Yeah.

Q: Where were they then?

A: We were just crossing over the barbed wire fences.

Q: Is that before or after you had been to the back of the house?

A: This was before.

Q: So that after, in terms of sequence, after getting around the fence or around the gate and walking up the walkway, when the four of you were still together, the first thing that happened was the Rambler starting to come out; is that correct?

A: Wait, I lost you.

Q: Well, the four of you are now on your way up to the house --

A: Right.

Q: Is that when you saw the Rambler?

A: After we crossed over the fence?

Q: Yes.

A: Yes.

Q: The four of you were still together when you saw the Rambler; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, you have told us what happened with the Rambler --

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: -- now, did you then, the four of you , then proceed on?

A: No, from that point all I can remember is me and Tex walking.

Q: Well, you hadn't anticipated the shooting of the youngster in the Rambler, had you?

A: No, of course not.

Q: Did you say to Tex, "I am going back, I want no part of this"?

A: No.

Q: Did you see any lights on in the main house, now?

A: No.

Q: You had seen the light on the garage, hadn't you?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you run toward the garage and see if there was anybody there, for help?

A: No.

Q: Had you seen the guesthouse on the end of people's 8 yet?

A: What was that?

Q: Had you seen the area of the guesthouse?

A: No.

Q: If you look behind you, the guesthouse is on the very left-hand side of people's 8.

A: No.

Q: Had you seen that building, that structure yet?

A: No.

Q: Had you seen any lights on anywhere in the house?

A: Before all this?

Q: Yes -- no, after the driver of the Rambler had been shot.

A: Well, only when I saw the man come out of the front door, I saw a light.

Q: But that was sometime after the shooting of the young man in the Rambler, wasn't it?

A: Yeah.

Q: Well, but after the young man was shot in the Rambler did you make any effort to get to the garage where you had seen the light?

A: No.

Q: Did you make any effort to get to the house to see if there was anybody there?

A: No.

Q: Did you shout or scream or do anything in an effort to warn anybody?

A: No.

Q: Did you say anything to Tex?

A: No.

Q: All right.

I think you told us this car, the Rambler then was moved or pushed over to side of the road, or something, was it?

A: Yeah.

Q: Incidentally, where was that; where was the Rambler with respect to the closed gate in the driveway?

A: It was right in front of the gate, in front of the gate.

Q: Yes?

A: Inside of it.

Q: But very close to the gate area; is that correct?

A: Yeah.

Q: So that you were still some distance down the hill, this long walkway?

A: I don't understand.

Q: Well, you were still an appreciable distance from the main house, weren't you?

A: Oh, yeah.

Q: In other words, you were still very close to the area where you had climbed the embankment to get around the gate?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you turn and run and go down the embankment?

A: No.

Q: Did you run back toward your car?

A: No.

Q: You continued on with Tex and the two girls, didn't you?

A: I continued on with Tex; I don't remember about the girls.

Q: Now, how far did you walk, do you think, after the boy was shot in the Rambler?

A: How far did I walk?

Q: Yes, to approach the main house.

A: I don't know. I don't know.

Q: Did it take a matter of minutes?

A: No, I guess not. I don't know.

Q: After these shots was there any noise, did you hear any noise?

A: No.

Q: Did you hear any barking dogs?

A: No.

Q: I take it no lights appeared in any of the windows of the house.

A: No, not that I saw.

Q: Nobody came out to say anything or shout anything?

A: No.

Q: All right.

Then you and Tex, as you say, climbed a hedge did you?

A: Climbed a hedge?

Q: Or got over a hedge to go toward the main house.

A: Well, after he told me to go into the bank of the house, I just remember jumping down off of a level, jumping down a few feet and walking to the back of the house.

Q: Let me again invite your attention to people's 8, Mrs. Kasabian.

As I understand it, now, this would indicate the position of the Rambler -- can you see around here?

A: Yes.

Q: This is the position of the Rambler right here; and after this car was moved to the side, at least you and Tex continued on toward the main house; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember where it was that you moved across the hedge to get ever to the rear of the house?

A: Between the garage and the house.

Q: Can you give us any idea what this distance is in feet?

A: No, I don't know.

Q: Now, as you walked in front of the garage, did you have occasion to see whether or not there was anybody around the garage?

A: I didn't see anybody; I don't remember.

Q: Did you hear any sounds or noises of any kind coming from the garage?

A: No.

Q: Now, I take it you walked around to the back of the house, did you?

A: Yes.

Q: And then what did you do, come back, retrace your footsteps again?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you see any open windows or doors?

A: No.

Q: Did you ever shout a warning to anybody in the house?

A: No.

Q: Did you see anything as you walked around the back of the house?

A: No.

Q: You came back, then, to the front of the house and you met Tex again, did you?

A: Yes.

Q: And where was he at that time, if you remember?

A: He was at a window.

Q: And is that when he was cutting the screen, as you have told us?

A: Yes.

Q: And up until this, had any doors opened in this house?

A: No, not that I saw.

Q: And after he cut the screen did he removed the screen from the window?

A: I didn't see that, I don't think.

Q: Did he stick his hand in through the cut screen and open the window?

A: I don't know; I don't think so.

Q: Do you remember seeing the window open at any time while you were there?

A: No.

Q: Were you standing fairly close to him at the time?

A: Yeah, right beside him.

Q: Well, you could see what he was doing, couldn't you?

A: Yeah.

Q: What did you see him do?

A: Just cut the screen.

Q: Then what?

A: I don't know, I left.

Q: Where did you go?

A: Back to the Parent car.

Q: Did you see Sadie and Pat as you went back to the Rambler?

A: No.

Q: Did you shout any warnings or make any noise at all as you walked back to the Rambler?

A: No.

Q: Incidentally, did you walk or did you run?

A: I don't know.

Q: When you were in front of the house, you know, and Tex was cutting the screen, could you see the guesthouse at that time?

A: No.

Q: Were you aware of the guesthouse at all while you were in front of the house?

A: No.

Q: Did you see any lights shining through any of the windows in front of this house?

A: I think I saw a light coming from a room where I saw the flowers, but I'm not sure.

Q: Did anybody try the front door, if you know?

A: No, I don't know.

Q: Then you went back to the Rambler; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: And then you described, you heard all the sounds and the stabbings and the hittings that you have described; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Then did you make those observations while you were standing at the Rambler?

A: No, not all of them.

Q: Where did you go during the course of these homicides that you have described?

A: Well, when I heard the screaming, I ran towards the house.

Q: Back towards the main house?

A: Yes.

Q: How far did you get, using, perhaps the window that you had been at before as a point of reference?

A: I don't know. I was maybe from here to there, to the door.

Q: From where you are to the back of the courtroom?

A: Yes, from the front door of the house.

Q: And is that about as close as you got to the front door of the house?

A: Yes.

MR. BUBRICK: 30 feet, you Honor, or 35 feet?

THE COURT: About 36 feet.

MR. BUBRICK: 36 feet?

THE COURT: You did very well.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Did you ever shout to ask the people to stop doing what they were doing?

A: Yeah, I said to Katie --

Q: That's when she came up to you?

A: -- to Sadie, I'm sorry.

Q: That's when Sadie came up to you, didn't she?

A: Yes, she came running out of the house.

Q: How close did he get to you?

A: She was right here beside me.

Q: That's when she came back for your knife; is that correct?

A: No.

Q: Had you given somebody your knife by this time?

A: Yes.

Q: To whom?

A: To Katie.

Q: When did you do that?

A: After I left Tex at the window.

Q: Well, when did you see Katie after you left Tex at the window?

A: When?

Q: Yes.

A: I don't know; when I was back at the car, at Steve Parent's car.

Q: Did she come back to the car to ask you for a knife?

A: Yes.

Q: She was the only one who came back, then; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: And so you gave her your knife; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you ask her what she had done with hers?

A: No, I didn't ask.

Q: Did you ask he what she wanted your knife for?

A: No.

Q: Did you tell her, "You can't have it"?

A: No.

Q: Did you ever put your hand on the horn of that Rambler and blow the horn?

A: No.

Q: How long would you say this incident at the Tate house took, Mrs. Kasabian, if you can estimate the time for us?

A: I have no idea, I am sorry.

Q: All right. You were still at the Rambler, I take it, when you were rejoined by Tex, Pat and Sadie; is that correct?

A: No.

Q: Where were you when they joined you?

A: I was at the bottom of the hill in the car.

Q: Where the Ford had been parked?

A: Yes.

Q: That is, you had left the Rambler and gone all the way down by yourself; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you get around the gate by using that embankment that you described?

A: Yes.

Q: In other words, you got back down the same way you got up; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: How long would you say you were at the Ford, if you can estimate the time, before you were joined by the other three?

A: I don't know.

Q: Do you remember whether there were any houses in between, you know, the gate, perhaps, and where the car was parked.

A: Yes.

Q: Did you see any lights on in any of the house?

A: I don't recall any lights on.

Q: Did the thought ever occur to you to go to one of those houses for help?

A: Yes, at one point it did.

Q: Did you do it?

A: No.

Q: Did you warn anybody that evening?

A: No.

Q: Then I take it you got, the four of you, eventually got back in the car together and drove off again; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: And then did Tex drive again, did he?

A: Yes.

Q: And you then drove to the house where they hosed you?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you know who suggested finding a hose to hose off?

A: Tex said something about finding a hose and washing himself off.

Q: Did he also saying something about finding a garbage can to burn the clothes?

A: Yes.

Q: When did he say that?

A: Sometime en route, right after we left.

Q: In between the Tate house and the hosing-off incident?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you say anything about burning clothes in a garbage can at night?

A: No.

Q: Did anybody say anything about burning clothes in a garbage can at night?

A: Well, that is what Tex wanted to do, but nobody questioned it, to my knowledge.

Q: But it wasn't done?

A: No.

Q: Well, after the hosing-off incident and after you started again and Tex told you to throw the clothes out, did you ask him if he still wanted to burn the clothes?

A: No.

Q: Incidentally, did you hear any conversation between Sadie and Tex at or about the time that you stopped to hose off, to wash off?

A: No.

Q: Was there any conversation between Sadie and Tex that you could see, even though you might not have been able to hear it?

MR. BUGLIOSI: It calls for a conclusion, your Honor.

THE COURT: You can see people appear to be talking to each other without hearing what they were saying?

THE WITNESS: Not that I can recall.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Were the four of you always this close together?

A: Yes.

Q: And you were standing there, I take it, while they were washing themselves off with the hose?

A: Yes.

Q: Then Tex drove off as you have indicated and eventually you stopped and you threw one bundle out; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you throw it over the embankment?

A: Yes.

Q: I think you also told us that you were steering the car as Tex took his clothes off?

A: Uh-huh, yes.

Q: And did the car remain in motion, just keep on going while he was removing his clothes?

A: Uh-huh, yes.

Q: Removed his shirt?

A: Yes.

Q: And then removed his trousers, did he?

A: I can't account for his pants. I don't know.

Q: Well, at least the car never stopped between the time you washed off and you stopped to throw the bundle of clothes away, did it?

A: No.

Q: In other words, it was a rather hilly area, was it?

A: Yes.

Q: And you were doing the steering, were you, while the car was moving?

A: When he was taking his shirt off.

Q: Yes, when he was talking his clothes off?

A: Yes.

Q: Had you ever been in the area before?

A: No, not to my knowledge.

Q: Eventually, I think you told us, the car stopped and you threw some clothing away; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you throw it over an embankment?

A: Over an embankment?

Q: Yes.

A: You mean --

Q: Down into a gully or something like that?

A: I remember that I was at the edge of a hill and I threw it.

Q: Did you make a conscious effort to throw the thing out so it would go down the gully?

A: I just threw it like that (indicating). It went down.

Q: Was there a flat area close to the surface of the road in the area where you were with the clothing?

A: I didn't understand.

Q: Was there a level area?

A: Yes.

Q: Anywhere close to the edge of the road?

A: Yes, a dirt road, a dirt shoulder.

Q: Did you throw the clothes on the shoulder?

A: No. I was standing on the shoulder.

Q: And you just threw it over so it would go down in the ravine or something like that?

A: Yes.

Q: And that was only the clothing, is that correct, that you disposed of the first time?

A: Yes.

Q: And then later you got rid of the knives?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you ask anybody why they were destroying or throwing the clothes away?

A: No.

Q: And when you were told to get rid of the knives, did you ask Tex why he wanted to do that?

A: No.

Q: Did you ask any questions?

A: No.

Q: Did you ask any questions of any of the girls?

A: No.

Q: Was there any conversation at all between the time you left the Tate house and the disposal of the clothing?

A: Yes.

Q: What was said?

A: Well, the girls were complaining about their hair and Katie complained about her hand.

Q: Did you have any complaints?

A: No, I don't think I said anything.

Q: Were you crying then?

A: No.

Q: You get back eventually to the Spahn Ranch that evening, didn't you?

A: Yes.

Q: And then there was a meeting with Mr. Manson?

A: Yes.

Q: And he told you to go to bed?

A: Yes.

Q: Eventually after some conversation?

A: Yes.

Q: And did you go to bed?

A: I guess so.

Q: Did you sleep?

A: I guess I must have.

Q: You didn't cry that night, did you?

A: I don't know -- no, not the physical tears.

Q: No physical tears at any rate?

A: No.

Q: Then the next day again in the evening hours you were told to get a change of clothes?

A: Yes.

Q: And you were again --

THE COURT: Before we get to that Mr. Bubrick, you can reserve that until tomorrow.

MR. BUBRICK: Thank you, Honor Honor.

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we will recess at this time until tomorrow at 9:30.

Again please heed the usual admonition.

The spectators will remain seated until the jury leaves.

(The adjournment was taken until Wednesday, August 18, 1971 at 9:30 a.m.)