LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 2, 1971
1:30 P.M.
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THE COURT: People against Watson.
Let the record show all jurors are present; all counsel and the defendant are present.
THE CLERK: You have been previously sworn.
CHARLES WATSON,
resumed the stand and testified further as follows
THE CLERK: Would you restate your name for the record.
THE WITNESS: Charles Watson.
THE CLERK: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION (CONTINUED) BY MR. BUGLIOSI:
Q: Tex, this is the rope that was tied around Sharon Tate's neck.
You have never seen this rope before?
A: I know we had a rope similar to that out at the ranch.
Q: Now, you recall Linda Kasabian's testimony that you were carrying this rope over your shoulder when you walked up towards the Tate residence; do you know that?
MR. KEITH: Object to the question.
MR. BUBRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Is that truthful?
A: What do I do, do I answer?
THE COURT: Did you carry that over your shoulder?
THE WITNESS: Do I recall Linda saying that?
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: No, Linda did testify to that.
Did you, in fact, carry the rope over your shoulder?
A: No I did not.
Q: You never saw any rope on the night of the Tate murders; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: You have no way of knowing -- you have no knowledge of how Sharon Tate had a rope tied around her neck?
A: No, I do not.
Q: And you have no knowledge of how Jay Sebring had a rope tied around his neck?
A: That is correct.
Q: Going back just a moment to this Olancha incident, Tex, your mother testified you were six feet two inches; is that how tall you are?
A: Six feet?
I have been measured at five eleven and three-quarters and then I have been measured, I think, at six two. I don't really know where it is in there, though.
Q: Do you recall that you told Deputy Cox that you were six feet?
A: I don't know that I told him that; I don't recall it, you know.
Q: Now, I believe you testified that on the evening of the 8th Manson called you to the car and told you to go to Terry Melcher's former residence; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: And he told you to cut the wires and after the murders to wash the blood off and throw the clothing away, and then come back to the ranch; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, as you said, Tex, you have been interviewed by several psychiatrists; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: And you told them about these two nights of murder; is that right?
A: The best I can recall, yes.
Q: And when you spoke to them did you lie to any of them about anything?
A: No, I told them how it was to me when they talked to me.
Q: How come, Tex, you never told any of the psychiatrists who interviewed you that Manson told you to cut the telephone wires and to wash the blood off and throw the clothing away?
How come you never told one single psychiatrist that?
A: I thought I told them that. Like I say, I don't know what I told them exactly.
Q: It is your present belief that you did tell them that?
A: To my best knowledge, that is what Mr. Manson told me, you know; so I presume I told them that, yes.
Q: Isn't it true, Tex, that the only thing that Manson told you to do was go up there and kill these people; and it was your idea to cut the telephone wires?
A: No, that is not true.
Q: And throw away the clothing?
A: No, that is not true.
Q: Did either Linda or Katie or Sadie tell you that they had been to the Tate residence before -- when l say "the Tate residence," I mean the residence on Cielo Drive.
Did they indicate they had ever been there before?
A: I didn't have any conversation with them, you know, on the way over. I don't know; I never heard them say that, no.
Q: Did you get the impression that they had been there before?
A: I did not really get any impression on the way over.
Q: You had a valid driver's license in 1969, didn't you?
A: Up until the time I threw them away, yes.
Q: Until the time when?
A: I threw them away.
Q: But it was a valid driver's license?
A: Yes, uh-huh.
Q: Why didn't you drive to the Tate residence?
A: Because I had no driver's license.
Q: But you ended up driving back to the Spahn Ranch. Why did you drive back to the Spahn Ranch then?
A: I didn't drive back to the Spahn Ranch.
Q: Did you drive at all that night?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Why did you drive at all?
A: I don't know why. There wasn't any question at that stage it didn't seem like.
Q: Now, you claim that you were in the back seat of the car and Linda drove; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: Did you give Linda directions on how to get to the Cielo address?
A: No, I did not
Q: Do you have any idea how she found her way there, Tex?
A: No, I do not.
Q: What girl's lap did you allegedly fall asleep in?
A: Sometimes I think it was Sadie and sometimes I think it was Katie, so I am not really that sure about that.
Q: Did you dream anything while you were asleep in her lap?
A: I can recall having lots of dreams, you know.
Q: What were you dreaming?
A: I can't recall what I was dreaming. I can't recall.
Q: This Dr. Frank over here, Ira Frank, you have seen him before?
A: Yes.
Q: The man in the yellow sport coat?
A: Yes, right.
Q: Didn't you tell him that when you were going to the Tate residence you kept hearing Charlie telling you to go inside and kill everyone? Didn't you tell that man that?
A: I believe I told him that when I first killed or when I was shooting the first guy I was hearing Charlie's voices and seeing him like I was seeing his face and like was his face. I was him.
Q: Didn't you tell Dr. Frank:
"As we drove along I could hear Charlie's voice inside my head computing what he had said, 'Go up to the house where Terry Melcher used to live and kill them, cut them up, hang them on the rafters."
Didn't you tell that doctor that?
A: I could have.
Q: Now, you don't remember what your dreams were about?
A: No. l know that I just kept hearing Charlie's voices and seeing his face, you know, and feeling like I was him.
Q: In your dreams?
A: Well, during that period of time l was kind of messed up then.
Q: Actually you were driving the car, right, Tex?
A: No. That is not correct.
Q: Do you recall Linda testified that on the way to the Tate residence you told her to wrap the knife and the revolver up and if a police officer stopped you to throw the knife and the revolver out the window.
Do you recall Linda testifying to that?
A: Yes. l recall her saying that.
Q: Do you deny that?
A: Yes, l do.
Q: She also testified, Tex, that on the way to the Tate residence you told her, that is Linda, Kate and Sadie, that you had been to the residence before, that you knew the layout and you told them to everything that you told them to do.
Do you deny that you told them that?
A: Yes, do.
Q: You had a pair of blue jeans on the night of the murders, Tex?
A: Yes. That is what I was wearing all that time out at the ranch.
Q: What type of top were you wearing?
A: I am not real for sure. I do believe it was black.
Q: How come you were dressed in black clothing this night? Any particular reasons?
A: I remember the girls they had bought a lot of dark clothes at Sears & Roebuck, I believe, and that is what we were wearing during that time, a lot of dark clothes, creepy crawling and stuff like that Charlie called it.
Q: Creepy crawl so that you wouldn't get caught?
A: No, in experiencing fear and he was taking the fear out of us, out of our heads until we had no fear.
Q: But when you went creepy crawling you didn't want the people to know that you were creeping around their homes; right?
A: No. It was just that, taking the fear out and not having any thought.
Q: I know all about that but you didn't want people to know that you were creeping around their homes; isn't that right?
A: That thought never occurred.
Q: That is not the reason why you had the dark clothing on? To avoid being seen.
A: No, that was -- no.
Q: Okay.
Next, I don't know what you were wearing that night because I wasn't there, but let me show you some of the clothing that was found over the side of the hill and you tell the judge and jury if any of these pieces of clothing were yours.
Here is people's 51 for identification.
Were you wearing those pants?
A: I think I could have been wearing those or the black pants. I am not for sure which ones.
Q: These black pants right here?
A: Yes, one of the two.
Q: Do these look like the pair you were wearing that night, the pair of pants?
A: Like I say, it is one of the two, I believe.
THE COURT: What exhibit is that, Mr. Bugliosi?
MR. BUGLIOSI: The black pants are People's 53, your Honor.
Q: Tex, there was testimony that these blue jeans had a waist size of 30.
Was that your waist size around the time of these murders?
A: I didn't really know my waist size, but I feel that that was about it.
MR. BUGLIOSI: These blue jeans, for the record, again, are People's 51 for identification.
Q: And I believe that Mr. Granado testified that these black pants here had a waist size of around 24 or 25.
You couldn't have been wearing that; these would a little too small for you, I believe?
A: If they are that small, they would be.
Q: Let's take a look at the tops. Do you recognize that black T-shirt; were you wearing that that night?
A: We had black T-shirts. I know the girls had boxes of new black T-shirts, but --
Q: Do you recognize this black T-shirt?
THE COURT: What exhibit is that, sir?
MR. BUGLIOSI: This is People's 52.
THE WITNESS: There were black T-shirts like that, yes.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Is this the T-shirt you were wearing on the night of the Tate murders?
A: I'm not for sure.
Q: I show you People's 54: looks like a purple T-shirt. Do you recognize that T-shirt as being a shirt that you may have had on that night?
A: I could have had on any of the shirts, I feel.
Q: What about the black velour pullover, People's 50 for identification; is this your article of clothing?
A: I could have been wearing it, too. Like, we had just piles of clothes; I really can't tell.
Q: Here's a white shirt, Tex, People's 53. Were you wearing a T-shirt beneath the dark clothing at night?
A: Not that I can recall, no.
Q: You'll notice that there is a lot of blood on these items of clothing -- none of the blood was your blood, was it, Tex?
A: I'm not for sure; I know I had
Q: Go ahead.
A: I had a cut hand, yes.
Q: You did cut your hand that night?
A: Yes, my hand was cut.
Q: What, a particular finger or what?
A: No, my hand, in here.
Q: Was it a deep scratch or what?
A: Yes, pretty deep.
Q: Did it hurt quite a bit?
A: No, I never did really feel it, you know.did
Q: Didn't bother you too much; right?
A: No, I didn't have a lot of feeling for a while.
Q: The "bottomless pit," here, Tex; it is coming out.
MR. BUBRICK: A bottomless bag, Mr, Bugliosi.
MR. BUGLIOSI: What?
MR. BUBRICK: A bottomless bag.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Yes.
Q: So, everyone was dressed in dark clothing: You, Linda, Katie and Sadie; right?
A: Yes. I was dressed in dark clothing.
Q: This knife that you had, you say it had a metal handle?
A: The best I can remember, it was just a piece of metal.
Q: Do you remember how long the blade was?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Do you have any idea how long it was?
A: No, I really don't. I know it was just a blade, you know.
Q: It wasn't a pocketknife, was it?
A: No, it was a regular knife, seems like.
Q: And it wasn't thin, like a kitchen knife wan it; it was kind of thick?
A: It was a regular knife, you know.
Q: But, I mean, it was a thick knife; it wasn't very thin?
A: I really didn't know that much about the knife that I had.
Q: Do you know how wide it was?
A: No.
Q: You used to carry a knife around with you all the time out at Spahn Ranch, didn't you?
A: Not all the time.
Q: Quite a bit?
A: I remember Charlie bought some knives and he gave them to all the guys and girls; but I lost mine, remember, and I didn't carry one anymore.
Q: When you had the knife did you used to throw it into wooden doors, practicing?
A: We would throw them at the haystacks sometimes.
Q: This telephone pole that you climbed up, how did you climb up the pole; were there any steps or was there a ladder there, or how did you get up the pole?
A: I don't recall how I got on the pole. That is not too clear, but I know that I was on the steps of the pole.
Q: There were steps on the pole?
A: Yes, I was on the steps of the pole.
Q: The first step was about six feet from the ground, wasn't it, Tex?
A: It was high off the ground, yes.
Q: How did you get on that first step?
A: I'm not for sure how I got on it,
Q: You climbed up there; right?
A: I'm not for sure how I got up there.
Q: Then you climbed to the top of the pole?
A: Well, after I got on the steps, I had to get on top of the pole to cut the wires; I guess I did.
Q: These wirecutters here, Defendant's Exhibit WD, they are pretty heavy, aren't they, Tex?
Do you want to hold them? They are pretty heavy, aren't they?
A: They are pretty heavy.
Q: You carried these with you to the top of the pole?
A: That's what I cut the wires with.
Q: You were pretty strong on the night of the Tate murders, weren't you, Tex?
A: Off and on.
Q: Off and on? What do you mean by that?
A: Sometimes I was strong and sometimes I wasn't strong.
Q: Wero you strong when you were killing these people?
A: There really wasn't any strength. I meant, didn't recognise strength at that time.
Q: Well, you said you were pretty strong off and on; what did you mean by that?
A: Well, sometimes I felt that I guess I meant kind of dark and light; that's about the only way I can describe it.
Q: From the outside of the front gate of the Tate residence by the telephone pole you can't really see -- you can't really see the Tate residence, can you, Tex?
When you were out here by the telephone poles you can't see the Tate residence, can you?
You have been there now several times; there is a lot of trees and high bushes preventing a person from the telephone pole seeing the residence; isn't that right?
A: I think you are right.
Q: When the girls, as you claim, told you to cut the telephone wires, did you ask them how they knew that these were the telephone wires that led to the Tate residence?
Did you ask them, "How do you know that this is the telephone pole?"
A: I didn't ask any questions.
Q: Didn't it strike you rather strange that they would know which telephone pole had wires that led to the Tate residence, when you can't even see the Tate residence from the telephone pole?
A: I never asked any questions; I just climbed the pole.
Q: Well, the reason you didn't ask any questions, Tex, isn't the real reason that it was your idea to cut those telephone wires and no one said boo to you about doing it?
A: No, that is not correct.
Q: You had been to the Cielo address about three or four times?
A: About three I can remember, I think.
Q: What were the occasions for your going up there three times? You said one time there was a party that ended up at the Tate residence?
A: No, I didn't go on that time.
Q: What were the occasions for your going up to the Cielo address?
A: One time was with Dean Moorehouse -- and maybe two times with Dean Moorehouse, I'm not for sure about that; and another time was when I went up -- Greg Jakobson was in jail and Charlie asked me to go up and ask Terry if he would give me the money to go bail Greg out of jail, so that I went up there then; and that's the only time that I recall besides going up there with Dean.
Q: So there were three occasions?
A: I believe that is correct.
Q: And on all three occasions you actually entered the home?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: So you were familiar with the inside of the home; right?
A: I had been in the front room and the breakfast room.
Q: Isn't that why you told Katie, Sadie and Linda that you knew the layout; isn't that why?
A: No.
MR. KEITH: Move to strike the answer for the purpose of an objection. It assumes facts not in evidence.
THE COURT: But he answered, he said, "No."
MR. BUGLIOSI: There is evidence of that. Linda Kasabian's testimony.
THE COURT: You cannot impeach him by what Linda said, though.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I can ask him about it.
Q: Tex, were you ever inside the residence at the Cielo address when other people came to the residence after you?
Were you ever inside when shortly thereafter other people came to the residence, when other people entered after you?
A: I can't be sure of that at all.
Q: So you had no way of knowing then if a sound was made inside the residence when someone pressed the button by the telephone pole? You had no way of knowing that; right?
A: No, I didn't know anything about that.
Q: Is that the reason why, Tex, you didn't press the button by the telephone pole because you didn't know whether the people inside could hear you?
A: No.
Q: Out the night of the Tate murders?
A: No.
Q: Why did you climb around the gate? You knew how to enter the residence and the premises by pressing that button. Why did you bother climbing around the gate?
A: That is where we ended up and started over the fence and that is the way I went over.
Q: But on the three prior occasions you had entered the premises by pressing the button by the telephone pole; right?
A: That is correct.
Q: And the gate opened and you entered; right?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: But you didn't think about doing it that night?
A: No. There was just no thought of any of that.
Q: Did you have any trouble climbing around the fence?
A: I remember starting over and I kind of fell back down but I eventually got over.
Q: Were you staggering around that night, Tex?
A: Off and on I was. I felt I was, but I am not for sure.
Q: How were you able to kill five people if you were in such bad condition, Tex?
A: I can't explain the drug, you know, l can't.
Q: Is the explanation that you were not in bad condition?
A: I was in condition -- I can't describe, I don't know how to describe it.
Q: I believe you testified yesterday that after you climbed around the front gate a car approached; is that right?
A: Yes, I remember seeing some headlights.
Q: And you went up to the car and you shot the man?
A: That is correct.
Q: I believe you testified yesterday that none of the girls said anything at that point. You just went on your own and shot the man; right?
A: I remember hearing one of the girls say something about, "We've got to get them all," or something like that but that is about all I remember hearing.
Q: Didn't you testify yesterday that you heard the girls say this before the automobile incident; isn't that what you testified to yesterday?
A: l don't believe so, no. I don't know.
Q: May l have just a moment.
Directing your attention to page 3,132 of the transcript, would you read lines 9 through 17 to yourself. Read them silently to yourself.
A: Starting with 9.
Q: Yes, line 9 through 17.
Have you read those lines to yourself?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: Did you testify in answer to these questions:
"Q: Did you know who was in the car?
"A: No, I just knew that Charlie, you know, like I would see and hear him, hear his voice like, and to kill everybody in the piece; and I remember one of the girls did say something about, "We got to get everybody," or something to that effect.
"Q: Was this before or after you saw the headlights of the car?
"A: This was before we saw the headlights of the car."
MR. BUGLIOSI: There is a word in line 16 after "we saw."
MR. KAY: "Before I saw the headlights of the car."
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: "This was before we saw -- I saw the headlights of the car."
Didn't you testify yesterday that this girl said, "We've got to get everybody" before you saw the headlights on the car?
A: Well, now I say that she said it when the car pulled up. That is when.
Q: The fact is that what happened, when you saw the car approach, you told the three girls to get back into the bushes and then you went out and shot the man and they didn't say anything to you; isn't that the truth?
A: No, that is not true.
Q: How many times did you shoot this man?
A: I am not really for sure how many times I shot him.
Q: Where did you shoot him?
A: I didn't really see where I was shooting. I just --
Q: You weren't just shooting blindly, were you? You were aiming, weren't you?
A: No; I wasn't aiming.
Q: When you shot Steven Parent are you telling this jury that you never aimed the muzzle of this revolver at him? Is that what you are telling this jury?
A: I put it in the window of the car and I started pulling the trigger.
Q: And you had no idea of what you were going to hit?
A: That thought didn't occur --
Q: It just happened before the bullet --
THE COURT: Let him finish.
THE WITNESS: I was just shooting at the thing that was there.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Oh, the thing that was there. It was not a human being?
A: I didn't have any thought of human beings.
Q: Did you aim at the thing that was there?
A: Like I said I just stuck the gun toward it. I don't know if you call it an aim or what.
Q: You shot him one time right in the head, didn't you, Tex?
A: I don't know. I don't know where I shot him.
Q: Before you shot him did he say anything to you?
A: I can't recall. I didn't hear anything.
Q: Didn't he say "Please don't hurt me. I won't say anything to anyone." Isn't that what he said before you shot him to death?
A: I can't recognize that as saying that.
Q: Do you knew what type of car he was driving?
A: No.
Q: Do you know what color it was?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Was the man wearing glasses?
A: I couldn't see.
Q: At the time you shot this man, was his ear near the front gate of the Tate residence?
A: It pulled up and stopped.
Q: Where did it stop? You can look at this diagram here.
Here is the front gate of the residence. Now, you, Katie, Sadie and Linda climbed over the front gate, is that correct, and as soon as you got over you saw the headlights of the oar approaching; is that correct?
A: No, I saw the headlights more on down, I believe.
Q: You saw the headlights approaching the front gate; is that correct?
A: As we were walking down the driveway, I remember I saw the headlights coming.
Q: Was the car near the front gate at the time you shot the man?
A: I don't know. I know the car pulled up and stopped and I took the gun and that was it. I don't know where I was on that,
Q: You don't know whether it was near the gate or not?
A: I don't know how far we were. I have no idea.
Q: Was the front of the car pointed directly toward the gate?
A: The car was driving up.
Q: The car was driving toward the gate; right?
A: And stopped, yes.
Q: It was going toward the gate?
A: Yes. It was coming toward us.
Q: Tex, I show you people's 6 for identification. It has been identified as the car in which Steven Parent was seated at the time that you shot him.
You will notice, Tex, that the car is pretty close to the garage on the Tate premises.
Do you know how the car got from where you shot Mr. Parent to where it is right now on this photograph?
A: No, I do not.
Q: You pushed it, didn't you?
A: No, uh-uh, didn't push it,
Q: You don't know how it got there?
A: No, I do not.
Q: After you shot Mr. Parent, did you turn off the ignition on the car?
A: No, I didn't do anything,
Q: All you did was shoot the man?
A: Shoot, right.
Q: Any particular part of his body that you can recall?
A: No.
Q: Didn't you tell Dr. Bohr, Dr. Vernon Bohr, that you shot the top part of his body four or five times?
A: Well, I just stuck the gun in there and probably was the top part of the body.
Q: Now, you say you entered through the front door of the Tate residence?
A: The best I can recall, I must have walked in the front door.
Q: Do you recall Linda testifying that you cut a screen on one of the windows --
A: Yes.
MR. BUBRICK: Object to whatever Linda testified --
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Directing your attention to People's 26 for identification, a photograph of a window in the front of the Tate residence, Tex, and there is a screen off the window and it is slit horizontally, did you cut that screen?
A: No, I did not.
Q: You didn't cut the screen, open the window and enter through the window?
A: No
Q: You entered through the front door; is that right?
A: The best I can recall, that's the way I entered.
Q: Did you knock on the door, Tex, ring the doorbell or anything like that?
A: I just walked in, I believe.
Q: Was the door open at the time?
A: I believe it was closed; that's not real cloar to me, you know, about the position of the door or anything.
Q: When you entered the residence there was a man on the couch; is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Was he sleeping?
A: Yes, I guess he was asleep, yeah.
Q: Did you wake him up and tell him, "I'm the devil here to do the devil's work"?
A: No, I didn't say anything like that.
Q: What's the next thing that happened after you entered the residence?
A: I remember Sadie popped on the scene and she started bringing people out of the back door thing, and that's what happened.
Q: All right. Was one of the men rather short?
A: I don't recall the size that much.
Q: Was he shorter than the man who was on the couch?
A: I never did see the height of the people that much.
Q: Was that because they were on their knees, Tex, when you were stabbing them?
A: I know one person was falling down or something while Sadie was stabbing him.
Q: I believe you testified yesterday that the people you murdered were like blobs to you. What do you mean by that?
A: Well, it was kind of in -- kind of in between, like I said, a dark and a light, you know; I just didn't -- it was hard to see the. It was hard to tell what they were, really. It was hard to tell what they were in a lot of ways.
Q: You know they were human beings, didn't you?
A: The thought of anything like that just didn't occur, you know. The only thought in my head was just what Manson said.
Q: Are you saying, then, that these people whom you killed were just objects to you?
A: Yes, I guess so.
Q: Didn't you testify yesterday that the woman on the front lawn -- No. 1, it was a woman, it wasn't an object, but it was a woman -- and didn't you testify that she was covered with blood, yesterday?
A: She was covered with blood, yes.
Q: And it was a woman?
A: The best I could tell, because she had on a gown, had on a piece of cloth like; it must have been a woman,
Q: Well, now, a woman with blood on her, that's not a blob, is it, Tex?
A: Well, that's what it appeared to me to be, you know; that's what it looked kind of like.
Q: Looked kind of like a woman with blood on her?
A: Well, it hard to say what she did look like, you know, really.
Q: You also testified yesterday that there was a man inside -- again, not a blob or an object, but a man, and he was wearing blue jeans?
A: Right; that's right,
Q: Is this what you mean when you say "blobs," men with blue jeans and women with blood on them? Is that what you mean when you say "blobs"?
A: I don't really mean anything, you know, really mean that much. I don't know, I just know they were kind of in between, like I said.
Q: Going back to Dr. Frank, again, the gentleman seated here on my right, did you tell Dr. Frank this, quote, "The girls were bringing everyone into the room. A man came running toward me. My gun was empty, so I stabbed him again and again"?
Did you tell Dr. Frank that?
A: I know I shot the guy until the gun was empty, and than I stabbed the nano yes.
Q: Do you recall the testimony, Tex, that two live rounds were found in this revolver when it was found over the side of the hill?
A: Yes, I recall it.
Q: Two live rounds?
A: Yes.
Q: The gun wasn't empty, then, was it?
A: It was empty to me at the time. I mean, I shot it all I could.
Q: Was this gun loaded when you left Spahn Ranch on the night of the Tate murders?
A: I never did look at the gun; I never did look at it.
Q: Weren't you concerned about whether it was empty or not?
Charlie told you to to out and kill everyone; you weren't going to go out with an unloaded gun, were you?
A: I didn't know anything about guns.
Q: You didn't know anything about guns?
A: No.
Q: Didn't you fire, test fire, practice fire this revolver out at Spahn Ranch on several occasions?
A: No.
MR. BUBRICK: If your Honor please, I think that is kind of a question that in without form, whether it was test fired, shot, or whatever it was; it is compound.
THE COURT: The question is, did you fire that gun at the Spahn Ranch, Mr. Watson.
THE WITNESS: No, I never had fired the gun.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: How many times would you say you stabbed Mr. Frykowski? This is the man that was on the couch; how many times do you think you stabbed him?
A: I really have no idea how many times, you know.
Q: More than once?
A: It could have been one to a whole bunch of them, you know; I'm just not for sure how many times I stabbed him.
Q: Did you shoot him, too?
A: Not that I recall, no.
Q: I show you People's 172, a photograph of Wojiciech Frykowski's head.
There are 13 one-quarter inch lacerations on the top of his head. Do you know how he got those, Tex?
A: I know I was hitting with the gun, and it might have been that.
Q: You have have had something to do with it; right?
A: Like I said, I know I had -- was hitting, you know.
Q: You were hitting him on the top of the head?
A: I can't recall where I was hitting him, but I was hitting him.
Q: Were you hitting him with the butt of the revolver?
A: Yes.
Q: So you grabbed the revolver by the barrel, then, and you hit him over the head with the butt?
A: I was using the gun like that, yes.
Q: Do you know how many times you stabbed Sebring or Folger or Sharon Tate?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Did the people scream when you were stabbing them?
A: I remember everything being real wild and it was just a lot of static, you know.
Q: Were they screaming at the top of their lungs?
A: A lot of loud noises, yes.
Q: What kind of noises?
A: Just -- I guess you could say screams and just a lot of loud noises.
Q: Were they screaming for their lives?
A: I don't know; I was just -- really had no thought of anything like that.
Q: One thing you do know, Tex, you weren't screaming for your life, were you?
MR. KEITH: Object to the question; it is argumentative.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Was this screaming just for a very brief moment or did it go on a long period of time?
A: There really wasn't any time, just --
Q: What do you mean, there wasn't any time?
A: It's hard for me to distinguish time during that period of time, you know.
Q: During what period of time?
A: Well, during the time you were talking about, I guess.
Q: Are you talking about, let's say, August of 1969?
A: I'm just talking about on account of the trip I was on, you know.
Q: Did you have any conception of time during December of 1969?
A: I know we didn't use time, you know.
Q: Did time mean anything to you?
A: No.
Q: Didn't you testify this morning that a typical belladonna trip took about 10 days?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: How did you come up with the 10-day figure?
A: That's just the time it took, I guess you'd say.
Q: So you are aware of time, right, and you were aware of time?
A: Well, at times I was; but times it would pass like sometimes you might think you are out three days and you might not be out but a day, you know.
Q: How long were you inside the Tate residence, talking about time again?
A: Like I say, I just can't tell on that.
Q: Did these people run away from you, Tex?
A: Just when I -- I know when the guy Sadie was stabbing on, going out the door, you know, and I was hitting, hitting him with the gun, that that's the only move away.
Q: Did the other people just lie down and play dead and let you do that you wanted to?
A: That's the way they were when I got to them.
Q: By the time you got to them?
A: Yes.
Q: They were just lying down?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know how they got that way?
A: I know the girls was at them before I was because, like Katie ran over and grabbed me by the arm one time, or shoulder, and said, "Come over here," so that where I went.
Q: So they were already lying down when you came upon the scene?
A: Yes, right.
Q: Didn't you testify yesterday that Sadie brought a man into the living room and then she told you to watch out, he was coming towards you and you shot him; didn't you say that yesterday?
A: Yes, that's when I shot him; but I thought you were talking about stabbing.
I shot the man coming toward me, yes.
Q: In other words, when it came around to the time when you stabbed them they were already on the ground?
A: Yes, that's correct.
Q: And they got on the ground because you shot them; is that right?
A: Yes, that time, yes.
Q: Didn't you just say about a half a minute ago that you didn't know how they got on the ground?
A: Well, one of them, I did, I guess; one of them I put on the ground when I shot, yes.
Q: I guess so.
Did these people fight or struggle with you at all, Tex?
A: No, they didn't -- maybe the one going out the door, when I was hitting, but there wasn't any struggle, you know.
Q: Did they beg you not to kill them; did they say, "Please don't kill me. Please let me live?"
Did they say that to you, Tex?
A: I couldn't hear that, no, I could just hear a bunch of screams and hollers.
Q: Didn't you tell Diane Lake in Olancha that Sharon Tate pleaded for her life; didn't you tell her that?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you hear anything that they said?
A: No, I did not.
Q: What did it feel like when you stabbed these people, Tex; what type of sensation was it?
A: I had no feeling.
Q: Did you see blood coming out of their bodies when you stabbed them?
A: I saw blood, but I -- I don't know, I guess it was coming out, yeah.
Q: They were covered with blood, weren't they?
A: Yes.
Q: There was blood all over the floor; right?
A: I didn't see the blood on the floor,
Q: Did you enjoy stabbing these peoples, Tex?
A: I had no thought of nothing like --
Q: Pardon?
A: I had no thought of anything like that.
Q: Didn't you tell Diane Lake in Olancha, California, that it was fun to kill these people?
A: No, I did not.
Q: You deny that, too?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Did these people die right away, Tex, when you stabbed them; or were they alive for quite a period of time?
MR. BUBRICK: If he knows, your Honor.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Well, he was there; that's why I'm asking him.
MR. BUBRICK: This, think, is a kind of a legal-medical concept, your Honor.
THE COURT: He can tell the appearance.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Did they appear to die as soon as you stabbed them the first time, or were they lying there for a period of time and you continued to stab them?
A: I know I stabbed them, but I don't know how long.
Q: You stabbed them until they were dead; right?
A: I stabbed them; I don't know when they died. I don't know. I just don't; I wasn't thinking about that.
Q: You are aware that there were no postmortem wounds on the victims, no wounds inflicted after death?
A: I don't know about that.
Q: Is that because you finally stopped when they stopped breathing?
A: I remember I stopped only because the girls would come over and get me and take me to somebody else.
Q: Would you demonstrate to the jury with your hand how you stabbed these people?
A: I raised my hand up and I stabbed them like that.
Q: Did you feel the knife penetrating their bones?
A: I didn't have any feeling like that; it wasn't like that.
Q: Once your knife entered their bodies, Tex, did you lift up on the knife or move it at all, or did you pull it right out?
A: The best I can recall is just going up and down.
Q: Let's look at this revolver again, Tex. I notice that the right-hand grip on this revolver is off. Do you know how it fell off?
A: It must have fell off when I was hitting the rnn.
Q: Hitting Mr. Frykowski?
A: Yes.
Q: I also notice, Tex, that this trigger guard here is broken. Do you know how that happened?
A: I don't know for sure how either one of them happened, really.
Q: I also notice that the ejection spring housing here beneath the barrel is bent. Do you know how that happened?
A: Not for sure.
Q: You also notice, Tex, that this barrel is kind of loose. Do you know how that happened?
A: I am not for sure about that.
Q: You were hitting Mr. Frykowski with all the strength you could muster, right, Tex?
A: I was hitting him, yes.
Q: What I mean is you were hitting him hard. You weren't throwing kisses at him. You were hitting him hard; right?
THE COURT: The objection is sustained.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You were hitting him hard; right.
MR. BUBRICK: Asked and answered, your Honor.
MR. BUGLIOSI: It hasn't been answered yet.
THE COURT: You may answer that question.
THE WITNESS: I really don't know what I was doing.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You don't know whether you were hitting him?
A: I was hitting him, I guess, yes.
Q: You don't know how hard?
A: No.
Q: Did you take $70 from inside the residence?
A: No, I did not
Q: You told Linda that you did, didn't you?
A: No.
Q: Do you know Danny DeCarlo?
A: Yes, I know Danny DeCarlo.
Q: You told Danny DeCarlo that, didn't you?
MR. BUBRICK: Objection.
THE COURT: What is the objection?
MR. BUBRICK: It is hearsay. He can lay no foundation.
MR. BUGLIOSI: It is not hearsay, your Honor, an admission, an exception to the hearsay rule.
MR. BUBRICK: May we approach the bench, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
(The following proceedings were had at the bench.)
MR. BUBRICK: Your Honor, it is my understanding that before you could ask a question to lay the basis for impeachment foundation, that you have to be prepared to show that if you get the answer you don't want, you can complete the impeachment
Now, there is no question but that they cannot. Danny DeCarlo is a fugitive from justice, not in the state of California. He is out of this country.
THE COURT: If this is the foundation you are laying and he does not complete it, do you intend to complete the impeachment by calling Danny DeCarlo?
MR. BUGLIOSI: We will get him, yes, if we can. I mean I have no guarantee. If we can't, we can't.
THE COURT: If you don't I will instruct the jury to disregard it.
MR. BUBRICK: Thank you.
THE COURT: Just remind me, though. I will make a note of it too.
MR. BUGLIOSI: For the record we are having a difficult time locating him. The last we heard he was in Canada, but we do intend to call him in if we can find him.
THE COURT: If you do that, you have a right to complete it. If not, I will strike it.
(The following proceedings were had in open court.)
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You say you know Danny DeCarlo?
A: Yes.
Q: Didn't you tell Danny DeCarlo that you took $70 from the people inside the residence?
A: No, I did not.
Q: You, Sadie and Katie then after the killings, you went back to the car at the bottom of the hill; right?
A: Yes, right.
Q: And I believe you testified yesterday you don't know how you got out of the gate. Did you climb around it or did you go through the gate?
A: No, we walked right through the gate, I remember.
Q: Did you press the inside button?
A: No, I didn't.
Q: When you got down to the car, Tex, do you recall Sadie telling you that she had lost her knife inside the residence?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall getting angry at her for losing her knife?
A: No.
Q: Do you recall getting angry at Linda for running down to the bottom of the hill?
A: No
Q: Did you, Katie, and Sadie change your clothing as the car was in motion driving away from the residence?
A: Yes, I did. I changed my clothes. I don't know about the other people.
Q: Linda steered for you while you were changing your clothing?
A: No, Linda was driving.
Q: Now, you eventually ended up in front of a house; is that correct?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: And there was a hose extending out into the street?
A: There was a hose there but I'm not sure where it was extending.
Q: What did you do in front of that house with that hose?
A: I recall getting a drink and it is kind of fuzzy whether I washed anything or not. It is kind of fuzzy.
Sometimes I think I might have and sometimes I might not have. I don't know.
THE COURT: Would you read that back to me, please.
(The record was read by the reporter.)
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You testified yesterday that you were just drinking water in front of the house.
A: That is what I believe, you know.
Q: You believe you were drinking water?
A: Yes.
Q: You do not believe that you were washing blood off of your body; is that correct?
A: That is what is fuzzy right there.
Q: Do you recall Dr. Bailey, one of the psychiatrists who examined you, asking you this question:
"Q: Do you remember your driving to a house where you and Sadie and Katie washed the blood off?"
And your answering: "Yes."
Do you recall answering "yes" to that question by Dr. Bailey?
MR. BUBRICK: What page is that, Mr. Bugliosi?
MR. BUGLIOSI: On page 17 of Dr. Bailey's report.
Q: Do you recall telling Dr. Bailey that?
A: I believe I recall hearing Sadie say that -- is he listening?
THE COURT: That is all right. You just answer the question.
THE WITNESS: I recall Sadie saying that we had to stop and wash the blood off. That is what I recall hearing Sadie say in the car.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Do you recall telling Dr. Frank over here and also Dr. Fort that you hosed the blood off your body in front of that house?
A: That is what is fuzzy. Sometimes I think I did and sometimes I don't. I really can't recall that.
Q: Do you recall telling them that, though?
A: I very well could have, yes.
Q: Why did you want to wash the blood of your body?
A: I know Charlie had told use to clean up and throw the clothes away and Sadie also mentioned it too, and that is what we were doing, you know, I guess, if I did wash my hand or if I did wash myself anywhere.
Q: Do you recall hearing the testimony of the gray-haired man about your height early in the trial?
MR. BUBRICK: I think it would be immaterial whether he heard it or not, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I want to ask him if he recognises this man, your Honor.
THE COURT: Ask him if he saw the man.
Did you see the gray-haired man that took the stand here? I believe his name was Weber.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Rudolf Weber, that is right.
THE COURT: The man who chased you from that house.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I know, but I don't know if that was the man for sure, but I do recall the man at the house, yes.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Did you run from where the hose was down to the car at the bottom of the street?
A: As I recall correctly the car wasn't that far away from the house. It was just a few steps from the house, see, down just a little ways, not too far, though, maybe right past his driveway is where I believe it was.
Q: Did you run to the car or did you walk?
A: I believe I was walking, you know, kind of a walk. I know he was behind us or something and we were walking or maybe a fast walk or I don't really know how. I can't recall that much.
Q: Do you recall the man asking the group of you if that was your car at the bottom of the street and your answering "No, we are walking."
Do you recall that?
A: I can't recall that, no.
Q: Did you tell him that?
A: I could have but I don't recall it. I can recall saying I was getting a drink, that is all.
Q: Why did you lie to him and tell him that you were getting a drink?
MR. KEITH: Object to the question on the ground it assumes facts not in evidence.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. BUGLIOSI: He said he may very well have been washing blood off his body, If that is the case, it would be a lie.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Did Linda throw the knives out of the car?
A: Yes, I believe so, yes, and clothes and stuff.
Q: And you told her to wipe the fingerprints off the knives before she threw them out of the car; is that right?
A: No. That is not right.
Q: Do you know who threw that revolver out of the car?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Did you throw anything out of the car?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Do you recall going to a gasoline station and telling the girls to wipe the rest of the blood off their bodies?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Did you?
A: I went into the restroom, yes.
Q: For what purpose?
A: I looked in the mirror and that is all I can remember doing.
Q: You didn't wash any blood off your body?
A: No.
Q: And you didn't tell the girls to do that?
A: No, I did not.
Q: When you returned to Spahn Ranch Manson was waiting for you, wasn't he?
A: Manson, I remember seeing him and he didn't have on any clothes. He was running up and down the ranch.
Q: Did you tell Charlie what had happened?
A: No. I had no words with Charlie that night.
Q: He didn't ask you?
A: No.
Q: And you didn't volunteer to tell him anything?
A: No.
Q: You are telling the jury then that he sent you out to kill these people but when you came back you and he never said anything to each other; is that that you are telling the jury?
A: Yes, that is right.
Q: Did you ever tell Charlie what happened?
A: No. If I recall, some people were talking to him but I never said anything.
Q: Is it your testimony, Tex, that on the night of the Tate murders you were doing whatever the girls told you to do?
A: I was doing what Charles Manson had told me to do and Charles Manson was the girls and I was Charles Manson and we were all Charles Manson.
Q: So they were doing the thinking and you were doing the acting; is that your testimony?
MR. BUBRICK: That is not what he said, your Honor.
THE COURT: Objection is sustained.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: How is it, Tex, that during the hosing incident you took it upon yourself to talk to Mr. Weber to say that you were just getting a drink of water? How come you were the only one that did the talking?
A: He was confronting me. He walked right up in front of me, to my face.
Q: What did you do on the day after the Tate murders? You came back, you went to sleep, you woke up; what did you do that day?
A: I didn't do anything that day. I did -- I remember waking up and that's about all I did, you know.
Q: Did you watch any television?
A: No, I did not
Q: When is the first time that you found out who the victims were?
A: I never did really know who the victims were. I can't recall at all when I found that out.
Q: On August the 19th, you told Diane Lake, you mentioned Sharon Tate's name to Diane; didn't you?
A: Not that I can recall, no.
Q: Now, on the night of the LaBianca murders, was Charlie driving the car most of the time?
A: The best I can recall, Charlie and Linda was driving the car.
Q: Did they drive to Pasadena at all?
A: I'm not for sure where we were all the time; I was kind of lost on that, but --
Q: Do you remember stopping in front of a church?
A: I remember stopping a couple of times. I believe we did stop in front of a church, yes; Charlie got out a couple of times, I remember.
Q: Were you going to enter that church?
A: Was I going to?
Q: Yes.
A: Not that I know of. I know Charlie got out and got back in the car, and that was it.
Q: Would you have gone into that church if he asked you?
MR. BUBRICK: It calls for speculation, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Do you remember an incident on Sunset Boulevard where Manson was going to kill the driver of a white sports oar?
A: No, I do not.
Q: Do you know what time you arrived at the residence next door to the LaBianca residence, Harold True's former residence?
A: I didn't never go to Harold True's residence, I don't believe.
Q: The car was parked next door to the LaBianca residence; you were aware of that?
A: I'm aware of getting out of the car; it seems I just walked straight to a house.
Q: Manson got out of the car first; is that right?
A: Yes, that's correct.
Q: And he walked up the driveway alone?
A: I didn't see where he was walking. I didn't see Charlie after he left the car.
Q: He got out alone, though?
A: Yes, he got out alone.
Q: How long was he gone?
A: I just don't know.
Q: And when he came back, what did he say to you?
A: He told the girls to get out of the car and me to get out of the care and walked around the side of the car -- the back of the car; and he said something to the effect to do what you did last night or kill them as gruesome, or make sure they are dead as gruesome as you can, or something to that. It's not real clear what he did say right now.
Q: Earlier in the evening you told Charlie you needed better weapons than you had the previous night; right?
A: No.
Q: You, Leslie and Katie then entered the residence; is that right?
A: You said Katie and Leslie and I?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes, that's who went.
Q: Did you enter through the front door?
A: Yes.
Q: Was the door already open?
A: I don't -- I don't really know; I know I went in after them, kind of, you know, behind them. That's all I remember, kind of.
Q: Was there a man and a woman inside the residence?
A: It was hard for me to recognize with the things over their head, but it must have been a man and a woman, yes.
Q: What were they doing when you entered the residence?
A: The man was just laying down on the couch.
Q: Did he say anything?
A: No.
Q: Where was the woman?
A: The first time I saw the woman was when I walked into the bedroom, Leslie was stabbing her; that's where the woman was.
Q: Was the woman saying anything?
A: No.
Q: Did these two people -- let's call them Mr. and Mrs. La Bianca -- did they scream at all?
A: No, I heard no sounds that night.
Q: They didn't make any sound at all?
A: No.
Q: I show you People's 91, Tex, and the word "War," w-a-r, is carved in Mr. LaBianca's stomach. Did you carve those letters into his stomach?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Do you have any idea who did?
A: No.
Q: But you did stab this gentleman?
A: Yes.
Q: How many times?
A: I don't know how many times.
Q: I show you People's 217; you notice there is a knife sticking into Mr. LaBianca's throat. Did you do that, Tex?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Do you know who did?
A: No.
Q: Showing you 91 again People's 91, there is a fork protruding from Mr. LaBianca's stomach. Did you do that?
A: No, I did not
Q: Do you know who did?
A: No, I do not.
Q: I show you People's 210, Tex; have you ever seen that knife before?
A: No, I haven't.
Q: Did you stab Mr. LaBianca with that knife?
A: No.
Q: Did you go into the kitchen and get any kitchen utensils from the LaBianca residence?
A: No.
Q: I show you People's 207; have you ever seen that fork before?
A: Not before here in the courtroom, no.
THE COURT: Might this be a good time, Mr. Bugliosi?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will have our afternoon recess at this time; and, once again, please heed the usual admonition.
(Recess)
THE COURT: People versus Watson.
Let the records show all jurors, counsel and the defendant are present.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Tex, in Olancha, after these killings, did you make Diane Lake promise not to tell anyone what you had told her?
A: No, I did not.
Q: You did buy some newspapers up in Olancha?
A: No. There was a newspaper bought, I believe.
Q: When I say Olancha, I am talking about the time that you were up there after these killings around August the 18th, 19th or 20th, around that period of time did you buy any newspapers up there?
A: No.
Q: Did you read any of the newspapers?
A: I'm not for sure about that. I might have had one in my hand but I am not -- I can't say for sure.
Q: Were you concerned about what was being written in the newspapers about these killings?
A: No. I had no real thought.
Q: You weren't concerned about it?
A: No, I hadn't thought.
Q: Was it your state of mind, however, that the police certainly would be looking for the killers?
MR. BUBRICK: Calls for a conclusion as to his state of mind.
MR. BUGLIOSI: His state of mind is relevant.
THE COURT: I will let him answer that one.
THE WITNESS: What was the question again, please?
THE COURT: Do you remember the question, Mr, Bugliosi?
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Was it your state of mind after those killings that the police, Los Angeles Police Department, certainly would be looking for these killers, whoever committed the killings?
A: No, it wasn't real to me.
Q: So you didn't think, then, that the police would want to know who committed those killings?
A: Just was no thought about that.
Q: At the time you killed these people, Tex, was it your belief that it wasn't wrong to kill them?
A: Everything was perfect.
Q: I will ask you again, was it your belief that it wasn't wrong to kill them?
A: There just was no thought of right or wrong; there was no thought about it.
Q: Well, did you feel you were doing anything wrong when you killed them?
A: I had no feelings.
Q: So you felt it was perfect?
A: Everything was perfect.
Q: Now, between the time of those murders in August of 1969 and the time that you were arrested in December of 1969, a period of about four months, you certainly met and spoke to many people; is that correct?
A: Not a lot of people. I kind of, you know, stayed to myself all the time.
Q: Well, didn't you talk to people in your hometown?
A: No.
Q: Didn't you go out on a date with Jeanne Mallett from your hometown?
A: She came by and got me a couple of times, yes.
Q: You talked to her, didn't you?
A: Yes, I talked to her.
Q: So you talked to people back in Texas?
A: Yes, a few people.
Q: You went to Hawaii; you spoke to people in Hawaii, didn't you?
A: I didn't know anybody there.
Q: Did you talk at all to anybody in Hawaii?
A: Sure; I had to communicate.
Q: All right. Did you talk to anyone in Mexico?
A: Yes, I'd have to talk to somebody.
Q: And you were hitchhiking? right?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: And the person who would pick you up, I imagine you would talk to that person? right?
A: Yes.
Q: And certainly, Tex, you considered these killings a serious event in your life -- is that a proper word, serious, significant?
A: At that time it really wasn't real, nothing was real, you know.
Q: Well, you know you had killed these people?
A: I'm not -- it just wasn't real to me at that time.
Q: It wasn't real to you that you had killed the people?
A: No.
Q: When did you discover that you had a scratch on the palm of your hand?
A: I believe it was in Olancha or a short time afterwards.
Q: So you were aware of the scratch on your hand but not the fact that seven people were killed; is that what you are saying?
MR. KEITH: Objection --
MR. BUBRICK: Objection; argumentative.
THE COURT: Objection sustained, argumentative.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Tex, since you thought that it was perfect to do what you did at the Tate and LaBianca residences, since you thought that it was perfect and since you met and spoke to many people between the time of these murders and the time you were arrested in December of 1969, did you tell anyone that you had done this?
A: I really wasn't sure what I had done.
No, I did not tell anyone.
Q: Why didn't you Tex?
A: I don't know why.
Q: Since you thought of that what you did was perfect, Tex, between the time of the murders and the time of your arrest, why didn't you contact the police department and tell them that you had participated in these murders?
A: I don't know why.
Q: I believe you testified that you don't feel the same way about killing at the present time as you did at the time of the killings.
Did you testify to that on direct examination of Mr. Bubrick?
A: Yes, that's correct.
Q: You testified you had no feelings then but you do now; is that correct?
A: Yes. My feelings are gaining each day.
Q: When did you acquire this new feeling?
A: I am not for sure. I gained feelings, lost feelings, gained feelings, lost feelings, and gaining and it would be hard to say, you know.
Q: But at the present time you do have a feeling about killing other people?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: But at the time of these killings, you did not; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: Again talking about Dr. Frank here, when he interviewed you, did you tell him this: "I saw a guy laying on the couch. He started coming at me and I shot him and then stabbed him and stabbed him and stabbed him. People were running everywhere. I had no feelings then or now. It doesn't affect me, although I can see her others can find it wrong to kill."
Do you recall telling Dr. Frank that?
A: Yes, I believe I did at that time.
Q: Now, when you said to Dr. Frank, "I had no feelings then or now," what did you mean by that?
A: Well, at the time he interviewed me, I must have not had any feelings then.
Q: He interviewed you in March and April of 1971, quite a long time after the killings.
At that time, you still didn't think it was wrong to kill; is that right, Tex?
A: After the treatment I got when I got to California, I kind of flipped out and I didn't know what to believe at that time
Q: Oh, your belief was that --
A: True.
Q: -- that you had no feelings?
A: True.
Q: So you certainly had a negative type of a belief; right?
A: At that time, yes.
Q: At the time of the trial, you do have a different feeling; is that right?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Does the fact that you are on trial for murder have any connection with your change of mind, Tex?
A: No, it doesn't.
Q: When you told Dr. Frank, "I had no feelings then or now. It doesn't affect me. Although I can see how others can feel it is wrong to kill --" when you told him that, was it your state of mind that although you didn't think it was wrong to kill these people, you knew that other people thought it was wrong. Was that your state of mind?
A: I don't really know my state of rind then. I guess that is the way it was to me at that time.
Q: At what time? At the time you talked to Dr. Frank?
A: Yes.
Q: And also at the time of the killings?
A: No. At the time of the killings, I had no feelings at all at that time.
Q: When you were at the Barker Ranch with the family in late August, September and October of 1969, did you still love Charles Manson during that period of time?
A: He was still the same to me.
Q: You still thought he was Jesus Christ?
A: He lost me somewhere in there at the end of when I left, but he still had the effect on me, you know, the same effect a lot of ways,
Q: Did you love him at that time?
A: He was me at that time. It was just one person at the ranch all the time.
Q: Are you telling this jury then that when Manson told you to go out and kill these people, that you were talking to yourself?
A: No. I was Charles Manson. That is who I was.
Q: After these murders, Tex, were you hiding from the police at all?
A: No, I was not.
Q: When you went to Mexico and Hawaii, were you hiding?
A: No, I was going back to Charles Manson, trying to.
Q: Did you think he was in Hawaii?
A: No, I ended up in the desert. I was kind of -- I couldn't pull, you know, to him and then something would always tell me not to go back and something would tell me to go back; and I ended up back there, but he wasn't there.
Q: But you knew he wasn't in Hawaii?
A: That is true.
Q: Why did you go to Hawaii?
A: I guess I was running from him kind of, you know; I don't really know why.
Q: Running from him? You just said you went to him, Tex.
A: Well, I was going to him, and sometimes my mind -- it was in a state of confusion, like, I was all messed up.
Q: During this period of time between the time of the murder and the time you were arrested, did you want to be arrested?
A: I had no thought about being arrested, really.
Q: Were you hoping the police wouldn't find you, Tex?
A: I had no thought of it, no; I just really had no thought of what was happening.
Q: But you had enough thought not to tell anybody; is that right?
A: I never did really know that it was real. Just wasn't real to me in any way,
Q: How do you feel about Charlie Manson at the present time?
A: At the present time I feel that he was kind of a false god or something, a false prophet, as you would say, or something.
Q: Do you feel he was an evil man?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: And when did you come to that conclusion?
A: Well, since I have been slowly getting back to my parents and writing them every day, and I'd say for about the past -- I don't know how many months, I have been slowly getting back to what I think is right, you know.
Q: The closer you came to the trial, the farther you got away from Charles Manson; is that right, Tex?
A: I was treated so much like Charles Manson when -- everybody was calling me Charles Manson when I got to California, seemed like I became Charles Manson again.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I just have one more question.
May we approach the bench on this?
(The following proceedings were had at the bench out of the hearing of the jury)
MR. BUGLIOSI: On direct examination I believe he testified that he has different feelings now, he thinks that it is wrong to kill.
I think that we should be able to go into the fact that in October of 1970 he told Dr. Owre, a doctor at Atascadero, "I could kill you very easily."
I think if they can go into something like that, I think we can; moreovor, it is not a crime, we are not putting on evidence of another crime.
THE COURT: You want to ask him --
MR. BUGLIOSI: If he told Dr. Owre --
THE COURT: When was this?
MR. BUGLIOSI: In October of 1970, when he was sent up there from Los Angeles to Atascadero, for examining him up there.
MR. BUBRICK: Your Honor, that is going to open up --
THE COURT: It is going to open up an awful lot, but --
MR. BUBRICK: It is going to open up a tremendous issue.
THE COURT: Are you going to call Dr. Owre?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Yes, but I wanted to see his reaction to that, if he --
MR. BUBRICK: If you ask him that question --
MR. BUGLIOSI: -- denies it, and then Owre confirms it again, it shows he's not telling the truth on the stand.
MR. BUBRICK: I tell you, Vince, if you ask him that question no matter what he says, we are going to open up every single thing that happened to him at Atascadero.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Everything?
MR. BUBRICK: Everything.
MR. BUGLIOSI: We intended to call the Atascadero --
MR. BUBRICK: I am going to bring in people -- he has told me about beatings he got at Atascadero; if that is so, we will try the conduct of the state officials at Atascadero.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I don't know that that would be admissible.
THE COURT: If it would relate to his state of mind, and you are going into his state of mind, they have the right --
MR. BUGLIOSI: Assuming they can make an offer of proof, there is some nexus between his treatment up there and his offering to kill --
MR. BUBRICK: Just a minute, just a minute.
THE COURT: That is not a correct statement.
MR. BUBRICK: That is not a threat to kill.
You want an admission that he said certain words, but that is not a threat to kill, because the officer said -- I heard the statement; he said it was an explosive response, that all. It was an explosive response, not a threat to kill.
MR. BUGLIOSI: And that were his words? "I can kill you very easily"?
MR. BUBRICK: Something like that.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Do you want to stipulate that he said it?
MR. BUBRICK: No, I won't stipulate to it.
THE COURT: Are you objecting to his asking the question?
MR. BUBRICK: Yes, I am, your Honor.
MR. BUGLIOSI: We intend to call the Atascadero psychiatrist --
THE COURT: You are going to call him anyway?
MR. BUGLIOSI: I am interested in whether he will deny it; he is denying everything --
THE COURT: The funny part, he is not denying everything, Vince.
MR. BUGLIOSI: He is not denying the seven killings, but he is denying the other things Linda testified to.
THE COURT: I thought he admitted a lot that Linda testified to.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Really?
THE COURT: I thought so. There are divergences here and there, of course -- the rope --
MR. BUGLIOSI: The rope, en route to the Tate residence, he denied telling the girls to do whatever he told them to do and denies telling Linda to wrap the revolver and the knives up --
THE COURT: yes.
MR. BUGLIOSI: He denies telling her to wipe off fingerprints --
THE COURT: There is no question about that, there is a conflict between them, there is no question.
MR. BUBRICK: It is conceivable that Linda may have been stretching it a little bit.
THE COURT: Well, if you think that is important, I will allow you to ask him that; but on redirect examination I am going to allow them to go into the why and the wherefore.
MR. BUGLIOSI: You are going into it anyway?
MR. BUBRICK: I am not; I do not --
MR. KAY: Judge, before we go back, I want to talk to Vince a minute.
MR. BUBRICK: You notice we have avoided Atascadero all the time.
MR. KAY: Our investigator just informed me I hadn't called Dr. Bailey's office to tell Dr. Bailey that I wanted him next Tuesday morning; and evidently Dr. Bailey is leaving tomorrow night for Hawaii; so that if it is all right, we would like to put him on out of order tomorrow morning.
THE COURT: I think we can accommodate you; but how about this present question?
MR. KAY: That has nothing to do with this.
THE COURT: Let's settle one thing at a time.
MR. BUGLIOSI: May I as Mr. Bubrick, are you saying there is a connection between this statement and the treatment that he got up at Atascadero?
MR. BUBRICK: I am. He went up to Atascadero with my specific instructions not to discuss this crime with anybody, not to tell them a single solitary thing about it, and I will take the witness stand and --
MR. KAY: You can't
MR. BUBRICK: Don't tell me what I can do; the judge will tell me what I can do.
I am prepared to do that if necessary; that's why he didn't say a word to anybody in Atascadero about this case. They kept prompting him, prompting him, prompting him. Owre and that staff just leading him on in an effort to get him to say something.
I made two trips to Atascadero and I told them, "He is not going to tell you a thing, those are my orders."
MR. BUGLIOSI: So, when they leaned on him, he said, "I could kill you very easily"?
You can put that on.
MR. BUBRICK: They took it out of context.
MR. BUGLIOSI: You can put that on.
MR. BUBRICK: I will.
THE COURT: Your instructions were that they were not to interview him --
MR. BUBRICK: That is what I told Tex -- I didn't, of course, before he got to Atascadero -- I told him, "When you go there, you are not to talk about this case with anybody; I don't want you to talk to any of the doctors, to anybody up there about the facts of this case."
MR. BUGLIOSI: Of course, they are not members of law enforcement; nor, are they agents, really, so I think under the law --
THE COURT: I will let you go into it, but then he can --
MR. BUGLIOSI: Yes, he can do that.
THE COURT: All right, go ahead.
(The following proceedings were had in open court within the hearing of the jury)
MR. BUGLIOSI: I have just a few more questions, your Honor.
Q: Going back to the LaBianca murders, Tex, isn't it true that after you had participated in the killing of Leno and Rosemary LaBianca, isn't it true that you told Leslie Van Houton to wipe off all the fingerprints inside the residence?
MR. KEITH: Object to the question, your Honor. May we approach the bench?
THE COURT: That is permissible.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: It Isn't that true, Tex?
A: No, it is not.
Q: What did you do with the knives that were used to kill Leno and Rosemary LaBianca?
A: I guess they went the same place the clothes went, but I never saw the knife after we left the houses
Q: You left your knife inside the house?
A: No,
Q: What did you do with your knife?
A: The girls were carrying it, all the stuff down the road, you know, and when I went to sleep under the tree, that is where I never saw anything again, you know.
Q: Each of you threw your knives and clothing inside of a garbage can in an alley near the LaBianca residence; isn't that true, Tex?
A: No. I didn't throw mine away, no
Q: One more question, Tex; You were up at Atascadero in October 1970; is that correct?
A: I guess that is when I was there.
Q: And you were interviewed by a doctor by the name of Alfred Owre, O-w-r-e?
A: That is correct.
Q: Do you recall telling Dr. Owre in October 1970 that you could kill him very easily?
A: I told him -- that is what he said I said, but I did say -- that was relating to him in what kind of mind I was at the time of the killings, that I could have killed anyone very easily, if it was him or if it was anyone in that room at the time, I could have killed them. That is what I said.
Q: You were not talking about the present when talking to Dr. Owre, You did not tell him, "I could kill you right now very easily"?
A: I told him that I could kill him right now very easily. I could have said that, yes.
MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUBRICK:
Q: Charles, what was happening to you out at Atascadero at that time?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Too broad a question, your Honor. It is ambiguous and I object upon that ground.
THE COURT: Yes, Narrow it down.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Do you remember the date on which this conversation took place with Dr, Owre?
A: No, I don't remember the exact date, no.
Q: Do you remember where it took place?
A: Yes. It took place in one of the back rooms of the hospital.
Q: Was there anybody else there with Dr. Owre?
A: Yes. There as some technicians there.
Q: Do you remember who they were, their names, or anything of that nature?
A: They were my sponsors at the hospital and one of them's name was Ray Barnett, I believe and Mr. Weams was another one, I believe, and I can't recall who else.
Q: Do you remember what Dr. Owre was talking to you about on this particular occasion?
A: He was talking to me about the Tata and LaBianca murders.
Q: Was he asking you whether you had anything to do with them or not?
A: He constantly asked me about the case all the time.
Q: Did you have any instructions when you went to Atascadero?
A: Yes. l was told by you not to talk to anyone about the case.
Q: Did you tell that to the doctors?
A: I can't recall if I told that to the doctors or not.
Q: Did you tell them you didn't want to discuss the facts of the case with them?
A: I just wouldn't discuss that much at all, because you had told me not to talk to anyone, and I didn't talk to anyone that much.
Q: On the day that this statement was made, what had you been talking about, if you remember?
A: I don't know. They kept calling me Charles Manson instead of Charles Watson.
Q: Dr. Owre did?
A: Yes. They would always act like they had made a mistake. They would say Mr. Manson, or Charles Manson and --
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I move to strike that on the ground that is a conclusion of the witness and ask the Court to admonish the jury to disregard it.
THE COURT: What are you asking me to strike?
MR. BUGLIOSI: His statement that they would act like they had made a mistake as a conclusion on his part, what was on their minds.
THE COURT: The motion will be denied.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: When they said, "Charles Manson," would they say anything else following that?
A: I can't recall. I know everywhere I went during that time I was treated like that and people were calling and treating me like that
Q: When Dr. Owre called you Charles Manson, would he call you by any other name?
A: Sometimes he would say, "Tex" and he vas always getting mad at me.
Q: Getting mad at you, why, if you know?
A: Because I wouldn't tell him about the case.
Q: Now, when you made these statements, do you remember what sort at things you were wearing? Were you wearing any articles on you at all?
A: Wearing the wrist restraints that I was in for a long time.
Q: You wore wrist restraints all the time you were there, didn't you?
A: No, not all the time. About, I would say, four weeks or so.
Q: Where were you when you made the statement? Sitting at a table or something like that?
A: No. I was sitting in a chair.
Q: And where was Dr. Owre?
A: He was sitting about from here to where he is from me.
THE COURT: Meaning Mr. Kay?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: About 10 feet or so?
MR. BUGLIOSI: So stipulate.
THE WITNESS: Or maybe a little less than that, about like that.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: How did you happen -- do you remember the exact statement you made?
A: No, but I remember what -- kind of what was going on, was trying to explain to him how I was, you know, at the time of the killings and then he ---
Q: What did you tell him about how you were?
A: I told him that about what I said today, you know, about being Charles Manson and how he told me to -- how he had power over me to make it perfect to kill, to kill that day.
Q: What did Dr. Owre say?
A: Then he said -- then he -- they made a big thing out of it, the technicians and he made a big thing out of it. He just jumped up and hollered, "You just threatened to kill me," you know.
And then he said, "You heard him," to one of the technicians, and then the technician said, "Yes, I heard him." He made a big thing out of something that I didn't really even say.
Q: De you remember what you said?
A: I don't know. It ended up like they said you know, it ended up.
Q: "I could kill you easily"?
A: I don't know if those were the exact words, but they made it seem like it was like that, I know they had me pretty drugged during that time
Q: Had you been having any difficulty with any of the technicians there, Charles?
A: They beat me up three or four times.
Q: And how about the kind of food that you were getting at Atascadero?
A: They wouldn't give me the kinds of foods that was used to eating and X was nearly starving to death and then when I wouldn't eat it, they took me back in the back and beat me up until I passed out and they had to use oxygen on me to wake me up.
Q: Where did you get the food, where did you get whatever you did eat?
A: Out of garbage cans,
Q: At Atascadero Hospital?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you tell that to Dr. Owre?
A: No.
Q: Did you tell that to the technicians?
A: No.
Q: That you wouldn't eat what they served on your tray; is that right?
A: I would eat what I could and then I would eat out of the garbage cans what I could.
Q: Did anybody ever catch you eating out of the garbage cans?
A: I think once they did but they never did punish me for that.
Q: Did you over tell anybody at Atascadero about your participation in the murders?
A: Nobody.
Q: Do you remember my coming to Atascadero and talking with you?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember my instructions to you at Atascadero?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember my telling you not to continue to talk to anybody there?
A: That is right.
Q: And you followed that order?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: When this statement was made, did you make any threats to Dr. Owre?
A: What statement was made?
Q: When this statement, "I could kill you very easily" was made, when that purported statement was made, did you make any threats to Dr. Owre? Did you get out of your chair?
A: No.
Q: You still were wearing wrist restraints?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there still this 10-foot separation between you?
A: Yes, plus a couple of big technicians that were beating on me previously and afterwards.
Q: Charles, how were the clothes at Spahn Ranch distributed?
A: They were all just in a big pile in a room everywhere. The clothes were all at that time just in a pile that anybody could go in and get any clothes and wear just anything they could find to wear.
Q: Did you have any clothes of your own at Spahn Ranch?
A: No, none at all.
Q: Did anybody at Spahn Ranch own or hold apart their own separate clothing?
A: No.
Q: So that there was just a sort of community pile. You took what was there; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: Now, you were asked how many times you were at the Cielo Drive address, do you remember that?
Do you remember being at that house?
A: Yes.
Q: You said you were there two or three times, something like that?
A: That's right.
Q: Do you remember what rooms you went into, the times you were there with Dean Moorehouse?
A: We were in the front room one time and I remember sitting at the breakfast table one time.
Q: Well, the breakfast room table, is that the time you vent to get bail for Greg Jakobson?
A: That's correct.
Q: Did you over go to any room other than the breakfast room?
A: That's all.
Q: And I think you said you hitchhiked there?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: And when you left the residence, how did you leave?
A: The butler took me a way.
Q: The butler did what?
A: Terry Melcher's chauffeur, I guess I should say, took me down to Sunset Boulevard and I hitchhiked.
Q: He drove you down the hill to Sunset Boulevard; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: On the other occasions when you had previously visited the Cielo Drive address with Dean Moorehouse, do you know whether or not you pressed the button tote gate leading to the house?
A: Dean was driving; I didn't press any button.
Q: Now, are you aware of the gate opening on those occasions and a car driving up the driveway?
A: That's not really clear to me right now. I know, like a lot of things must have happened, but it is not too clear to me.
Q: Well, on the occasions when you drove up there with Mr. Moorehouse, after you got to the house and knock on the door, if you remember?
A: Yes, we'd get out of the house and knock on the door.
Q: Are there any occasions that you remember coming through the driveway, through this gate and finding somebody at the front of the house waiting for you?
A: I can't recall.
Q: Did you know whether or not there was a signaling device from the electric gate to the house?
A: No, I never -- it never came to my mind,
MR. BUBRICK: l have nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, Mr. Watson.
MR. BUGLIOSI: May we approach the bench?
THE COURT: Do you want the reporter?
MR. BUGLIOSI: No.
(Unreported discussion at the bench.)
(The following proceedings were had in open court in the presence of the jury:)
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will recess at this time until 9:30 tomorrow
Once more, do not form or express any opinion in this case; do not discuss it among yourselves, let no one else talk to you about this case and please keep your minds open.
9:30 tomorrow morning.
(At 3:48 p.m. an adjournment was taken until Friday, September 3, 1971 at 9:30 a.m.)
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