County of Los Angeles Sheriff's Department

GARY HINMAN INVESTIGATION

The following statement of MARY T. BRUNNER was taken on the 4th day of December, 1969, commencing at 7:15 P.M. Interrogation by Paul Whiteley and Charles Guenther, Homicide Bureau, Detective Division, Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Directing your attention to approximately the last part of July, this year, did you have occasion to go to Gary Hinman's home at 964 Old Topanga Canyon Road in Malibu?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And who did you go there with?

MS. BRUNNER: With Bobby Beausoleil and Sadie.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Who is Sadie?

MS. BRUNNER: Atkins. Susie Atkins.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: How did you get to Gary's house?

MS. BRUNNER: I think it was Bruce drove us up there.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Bruce who?

MS. BRUNNER: Davis.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What did he drive you there in?

MS. BRUNNER: It was either a Ford or a Chevy, Ford, either 650 or 658 Ford

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Was this a (indistinguishable) car?

MS. BRUNNER: No, it belonged to one of the cowboys at the ranch.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: About what time did you get there?

MS. BRUNNER: Maybe midnight, eleven to midnight, someplace in there.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: You remember what day of the week it was?

MS. BRUNNER: Friday.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: It was a Friday?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What happened when you arrived at the home?

MS. BRUNNER: Sadie and I went it.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What door did you go in?

MS. BRUNNER: There is only one door, right. You go up the steps and you go in the room by the tree and then you go in the door right to your left there.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: There is another door?

MS. BRUNNER: Oh, there is that door around to the other side but you still go through the room by the tree to get in the house.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you knock?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And who answered?

MS. BRUNNER: Gary.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And you and Sadie went in?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And where was Robert Beausoleil at this time?

MS. BRUNNER: He was outside down the road.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What was he doing down the road?

MS. BRUNNER: Well, if Gary was alone we were supposed to give something like light a match or light a cigarette at the window or something and then he would come in.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: After you got into the house, did somebody signal him?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes, we, Sadie signaled him.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: How did she do it?

MS. BRUNNER: However we had arranged to do it. It was something about lighting a cigarette. Oh, I don't remember what their code was, some silly code.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: You didn't see her do it, though?

MS. BRUNNER: No.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Where were you when she was doing it?

MS. BRUNNER: Gary and I were talking in the kitchen.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What happened next?

MS. BRUNNER: Then Bobby came up and we just talked for awhile and then Bobby told Gary that we needed some money and Gary said he didn't have any and then jabber, jabber, and then Bobby took the gun out and said that, you know, we weren't kidding, we really do need some money and, then, they got fighting over it and Gary got hit with the gun.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Let's stop right there for just a minute. Did you come there with any kind of a weapon?

MS. BRUNNER: Just a pen knife that I always carry in my purse. It wasn't like a weapon.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did Sadie have a weapon?

MS. BRUNNER: No.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Robert Beausoleil, you say, had a gun?

MS. BRUNNER: A pistol, revolver.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Was it an automatic?

MS. BRUNNER: I don't know.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did he have anything other than a gun?

MS. BRUNNER: He had a knife.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: A fight developed in what part of the house?

MS. BRUNNER: Kitchen.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Between who?

MS. BRUNNER: Bobby and Gary.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: During the struggle with the gun, did Susie get into it?

MS. BRUNNER: Not really.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you get into it?

MS. BRUNNER: No.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What were you doing?

MS. BRUNNER: Trying to stay out of the way. It was pointed this way and that way and this way and that way and I was dodging to the other side of the kitchen everytime it went.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What was the next thing that happened?

MS. BRUNNER: Well, Gary quit fighting and then his head was all cut in all kinds of places.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What was it cut from?

MS. BRUNNER: From getting hit with the gun.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did the gun discharge at any time?

MS. BRUNNER: Sometime, yes. There were two fights over the gun. Oh, yeah, there was a fight and then that stopped and then Bobby went to make a phone call to the ranch and then he gave Sadie the gun while he did, and Gary got the gun away from Sadie and then we fought over it again. The gun must have discharged the first time because I am sure it didn't the second time.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And this was during the struggle between Robert Beausoleil and Gary Hinman?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And you and Sadie Atkins were only spectators to the struggle?

MS. BRUNNER: The first time. The second time, I think we were all in it, because Sadie --

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Let's not jump. Let's take it in sequence.

MS. BRUNNER: Okay.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: All right. During the scuffle, Gary's cut was bleeding because he was hit with the gun?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Who hit him with the gun?

MS. BRUNNER: Bobby.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Then, what was the next thing that happened?

MS. BRUNNER: Then, Bobby asked me to clean Gary up and I was cleaning Gary up and he gave Sadie his gun and went to call the ranch.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Let's stop right there. Where are you cleaning Gary up?

MS. BRUNNER: In the kitchen. He was sitting, you know where the refrigerator is there, on the chair between the refrigerator and a little bit (indistinguishable) it going towards the sink.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: All right.

MS. BRUNNER: You want me to go on?

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Yes.

MS. BRUNNER: So, then, Sadie had the gun and then Gary got it away from her and Gary stood up and took it away from her. Anyway, Gary got the gun away from her and Bobby came back in the room and the four of us were all fighting together, all trying to get the gun away from Gary and Bobby wound up with it.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: This is the second altercation you had?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did that take place in the kitchen, also?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What you are saying, then, is that Sadie had the gun trained on Gary and no one else was in the room?

MS. BRUNNER: No, I was in the room.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: You were in the room?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: How did he get control of the gun?

MS. BRUNNER: He just like walked up to her and said, "Now, Sadie," bla, bla. "Cut this out, stop acting this way," and she backed off and he reached out and, and then wrested it away from her.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Okay, and, at this time you all came into the kitchen and started fighting for the gun?

MS. BRUNNER: Well, I was in the kitchen all along and Sadie and Gary were in the kitchen all along and Bobby came back. He had gone to the living room to make the phone call. Then, he came back and there was more fighting the second time I told you about and then Bobby got the gun back.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: All right. Then what happened?

MS. BRUNNER: Then, we heard somebody coming so Sadie and I went to the living room to see who was coming and then somebody called out, Charlie or Bruce said something so we knew, or Bobby knew it was them, anyway, and Gary went to the door and he was yelling, "Call the police," and all that sort of stuff.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Let me stop you for a moment. Did Charlie come there in response to something?

MS. BRUNNER: He probably came, I suppose, because Bobby called him.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: When did Bobby call him?

MS. BRUNNER: I told you, when Sadie had the gun, he went to the living room to make a phone call.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you overhear the conversation?

MS. BRUNNER: No.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: How long was it from the telephone conversation to Charlie and Bruce coming?

MS. BRUNNER: The gun fight and a little bit more, it wasn't long.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Well, how long is that?

MS. BRUNNER: Oh, gosh.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Half an hour, an hour?

MS. BRUNNER: Oh, twenty minutes, twenty-five minutes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: All right, (indistinguishable), Charlie, when you say "Charlie", you are speaking of Charlie Manson and Bruce Davis came to the house?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And did they come in?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did Bruce Davis have any weapon?

MS. BRUNNER: A knife.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did Charlie have a weapon?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What sort of weapon did he have?

MS. BRUNNER: A real short sword.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Can you describe the sword?

MS. BRUNNER: It was just a real thin blade with a handle, with a loop; maybe it didn't have a loop, with a --

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Miss Brunner is indicating the sword has a handle that has a guard which would extend from the forefinger across to the little finger covering the hand, and what happened when Charlie got there?

MS. BRUNNER: Well, everything happened in a rush and it wound up, I was in the kitchen and things were happening in the bedroom and in the living room, whatever, because Gary used it for both, and it was just fighting, you know, sounds of fighting and then Charlie came out in the kitchen and his finger was cut open and --

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Where was the cut?

MS. BRUNNER: In here.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Indicating the left forefinger. Was it cut badly?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Where was his sword?

MS. BRUNNER: I don't think he had it then.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did he have blood on him?

MS. BRUNNER: No, he was just dripping from his finger.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: All right, and then what happened?

MS. BRUNNER: And, then, so, then, he asked me to put some bandage on it and I did and then Sadie was in the other room. She was putting a bandage on Gary's head. I didn't see her do that because by the time I got in there she had pretty much done it, and then they left, Gary -- not Gary, Charlie and Bruce.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did they leave any instructions when they left?

MS. BRUNNER: No.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: They just left?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: How long were they in the home?

MS. BRUNNER: I would say an hour at the most.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: During the time that they were there, did they do anything other than this scuffle in the front room?

MS. BRUNNER: Gary and Charlie talked.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: About what time was this that Charlie came with Bruce?

MS. BRUNNER: It is hard to figure without any clocks.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: You arrived there Friday night around midnight?

MS. BRUNNER: See, we got there around midnight. It must have been around two when we left, maybe.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Two in the morning?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: This would be Saturday morning, then?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What happened then?

MS. BRUNNER: Gary went to sleep. We all went to sleep, more or less. Somebody stayed awake all night. We kind of took turns staying awake.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Where did Gary sleep?

MS. BRUNNER: On the floor.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Where on the floor?

MS. BRUNNER: As you go in the living room, to the right in the corner, in the far corner to the right.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Is this next to anything?

MS. BRUNNER: The bookcase.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Is there anything else in the living room there?

MS. BRUNNER: Right near there, there is a chair near him.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: How about on the walls?

MS. BRUNNER: On the walls. Oh, there is a little thing up there, a little what do you call those things? You put up, you have flowers in, a Buddhist shrine type thing.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Where did you sleep?

MS. BRUNNER: On the floor in the middle of the room.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Were you near him?

MS. BRUNNER: Not particularly, no.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Where did Robert sleep?

MS. BRUNNER: In a chair.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Where did Sadie sleep?

MS. BRUNNER: On the floor in the living room.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you sleep in such a way that Gary could not get out?

MS. BRUNNER: We, somebody was awake all the time because you were thinking about that.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: In other words, you took turns staying awake?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Why?

MS. BRUNNER: So Gary would not get out.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: In other words, Gary was being held there in his house against his will?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And why was he being held?

MS. BRUNNER: So he wouldn't go to the police.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And what were you staying there for?

MS. BRUNNER: What was it anyway?

SERGEANT WHITELEY: You were trying to extract something from him?

MS. BRUNNER: We came for money but by this time it was obvious he didn't have any.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: How much money?

MS. BRUNNER: Somebody said he had $30,000.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you ever look for some money?

MS. BRUNNER: No, his money was in stock and bonds. We looked around but he didn't have any cash. We looked in his check book.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: How much did he have in his check book?

MS. BRUNNER: I don't know, not very much. I would say less than a hundred bucks.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you look for a safe?

MS. BRUNNER: No.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: During this time that you were, from the time that Charlie and Bruce and Robert and, I believe, Sadie, you said, had the altercation with Gary in the front room until the time that you were standing guard at night on him, did you do anything regarding the wound on Gary's body?

MS. BRUNNER: On his body. He didn't have any wound on his body, just his head.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: All right.

MS. BRUNNER: And, well, I done what I told you, in the kitchen, and then Sadie wrapped up the other one across his face.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you attempt to suture the wound?

MS. BRUNNER: The next day.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: The next day?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, not that night

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Okay. Let's go from there. What happened Saturday morning?

MS. BRUNNER: Just sat around the house. The only thing that happened all day Saturday is once I was in the kitchen and Bobby was sleeping in the other room and Sadie was in the bathroom and Gary tried to get out. He tried the door but the door was locked and we all heard him and went running.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Which door was locked?

MS. BRUNNER: The door by the bathroom, that goes out by the tree.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: You are speaking of the door that goes by the bathroom to the porch?

MS. BRUNNER: To the hall to the porch.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And you stopped him?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, we all stopped him.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Where did you take him?

MS. BRUNNER: He just walked back in the living room.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What did you do all day while you were waiting around?

MS. BRUNNER: Well, we were kind of thinking, you know, Gary would heal up and, see, it was, we didn't even know what to do because we were afraid to go leave him the way he was, you know, because we knew he was going to charge us with assault and we talked to him about him coming with us to the desert and, just stayed around.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What happened Saturday night?

MS. BRUNNER: Nothing mentionable.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did anyone come to the house from Friday until Saturday night?

MS. BRUNNER: One person came to the door.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And what kind of person was this, man or woman?

MS. BRUNNER: I think it was a guy and Sadie was sleeping at the time in the room with the tree on the couch there and she just said something about she woke up and said something about Gary not being home because that door was locked, too, the door right by the tree going to the steps.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Was there any telephone calls made during any of this time to the Hinman home?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Who answered the 'phone?

MS. BRUNNER: Sadie did, all but one, and I answered once.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: When Sadie answered the 'phone, was there anything unusual about the way she spoke?

MS. BRUNNER: She used an English accent sometimes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What was the story she was telling these people who asked where Gary was?

MS. BRUNNER: She said something about his mother being sick or his father being sick, one of his family being sick, and he gone to Colorado for a few days.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you ever answer the 'phone?

MS. BRUNNER: Once.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And when was that?

MS. BRUNNER: Sunday and this guy, Jay, called. He called before when Sadie answered and asked if he could come up and stay because he was in town and he didn't have a place to stay and she said, "No," that Gary had gone out of town and that he had said she could stay in the house but he didn't want anybody else to come over or stay over, and then he called back and I talked to him and he asked if Gary had called or anything, and if he did call would I ask him if Jay could come stay.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did anything else happen on Saturday night?

MS. BRUNNER: Not that, not that stands out.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Let's go to Sunday. What happened Sunday?

MS. BRUNNER: Sunday, Sadie went to the store because we needed groceries. God, did she go Saturday or Sunday. It seems like she went Sunday and got some bandages.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Is Sunday the day you tried to do something for Gary's cuts?

MS. BRUNNER: It must have been Sunday that I sewed up his cut, just took a couple stitches.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What did you use?

MS. BRUNNER: A needle and thread. I guess it was dental floss.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you use anything else?

MS. BRUNNER: And ice cube.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What condition at that time was Mr. Hinman in?

MS. BRUNNER: General condition or specific condition?

SERGEANT WHITELEY: General?

MS. BRUNNER: General, he was pretty good.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Had the bleeding subsided?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes, and then I tried to clean out the cut on his cheek because there was a real big clot but then it got it started bleeding again so I left it alone.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What was the next thing that happened on a Sunday?

MS. BRUNNER: The next thing, was anything -- then Gary called the ranch.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Who called?

MS. BRUNNER: Gary called. He went in the kitchen and called -- not Gary called, Bobby called -- quite a difference.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And what was the conversation?

MS. BRUNNER: After he hung up he said, he told me he was going to kill Gary that night.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What did you say?

MS. BRUNNER: Something to the effect there must be something else you can do.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What did Sadie say?

MS. BRUNNER: Sadie and I didn't talk a thing. Bobby told me this in the kitchen and then he told Sadie after supper and I don't know what Sadie said.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Okay, then what happened?

MS. BRUNNER: Then, I made supper and we ate and I was out in the kitchen and (indistinguishable) dishes and then I heard these noises like fighting in the living room and I thought Gary must be trying to leave again, and Bobby had stabbed him and Sadie came in, too. She must have been in the bathroom, I don't know, but I remember the two of us were standing by the, on the sort of straight in, when you come in from the door.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: The hallway?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes, as you walk up, you come in the hallway, you go in the living room, like we didn't move to the right going in, you know what I mean.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you hear Mr. Hinman say anything?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, he said, "Don't do any more," and Bobby says, Bobby asked him to chant. He had been chanting all week and Bobby asked him to chant some more and he started to chant and then he got up and went in the bathroom for awhile.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Who went in the bathroom?

MS. BRUNNER: Gary and, then, he went back in the living room and we started cleaning, you know, wiping the house up for finger prints and then he laid there and chanted for awhile and then went unconscious. I guess he was unconscious.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Let me get this right now. There was a scuffle in the living room and Bobby stabbed Gary and, then, Gary went into the bathroom?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did anybody have to help him?

MS. BRUNNER: No, no.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: No?

MS. BRUNNER: He was like in shock, you know, just, you know how you can do things.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Then he came out of the bathroom and went back into the living room or bedroom?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And did he lay back down on his own?

MS. BRUNNER: He must have. I don't recall now.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Where was he bleeding from?

MS. BRUNNER: From his chest.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Was he bleeding heavily?

MS. BRUNNER: He laid down. He couldn't have been too heavily.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What was Susie doing all this time?

MS. BRUNNER: She was helping clean the house for finger prints.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: So, I understand, up to this point now you have been told by Bobby that Gary is going to die?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: So you and Susie are starting to clean up the prints because you know it is just a matter of time before he goes?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, and after he stabbed him in the chest, I thought that would be it, you know.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What did you use to clean up the finger prints?

MS. BRUNNER: Dish rag, clothes, and, then, he laid there for a long time with his eyes open. He had a blanket over him, and we cleaned the house and then he just shut his eyes, just laying there, breathing normal, regular, I mean, and then Bobby said something about getting our stuff together, so we got the garbage together because we figured --

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What garbage?

MS. BRUNNER: Like cans. It was just the garbage, the kitchen garbage. We thought our finger prints were on it, so we dumped that out some of it, and we had lots of strips of sheets that we had wrapped around Gary's head and that kind of -- that was about it as far as garbage and stuff.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Was the gun part of the garbage?

MS. BRUNNER: The gun? No, that wasn't part of the garbage. That went along with me. I carried the gun out and then we got everything together and got ready to go and Sadie and I went out in the room with the tree and then Bobby stabbed Gary again, apparently.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Why do you say that?

MS. BRUNNER: Why did I say what?

SERGEANT WHITELEY: That, he apparently stabbed him again?

MS. BRUNNER: He must have. He was going to finish him off.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you hear something that made you think that?

MS. BRUNNER: We went out and shut the door but then Bobby came out and said, "Okay, let's go," and then Gary started real loud deep breathing, real raspy, loud. He did it a couple times and Bobby went back in through the kitchen window and then we opened the door and put a pillow over Gary's head for awhile. Then he asked me to hold it there so it wouldn't be so loud. Then he called me to the kitchen while I was still doing it and I don't know why he called me.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Let's stop right there. You have all gone out the door and you hear Gary, this gurgling, or he is breathing hard?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: So, Bobby goes through the kitchen window?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Back into the house?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: He opens the door back up to allow you and Sadie to come in?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And, then, he takes the pillow and he puts it over Gary's face and then he asked you to hold it for him?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Why?

MS. BRUNNER: And then he called the ranch and asked if somebody would come pick us up and there wasn't anybody that could come and pick us up.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Let's not jump. I want to get to a point here?

MS. BRUNNER: Okay.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Why did he want you to hold the pillow over Gary's face?

MS. BRUNNER: Because Gary's breathing was so loud, he was afraid somebody was going to hear it.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: You did hold the pillow?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did Sadie?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you see Bobby do it?

MS. BRUNNER: He did it first and then he want to make the 'phone call and then he asked me to do it while he made the call and then he called me to the kitchen and I asked Sadie to do it.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Why did you ask Sadie?

MS. BRUNNER: She was the only one left if Bobby was in the kitchen.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Why did you ask Sadie?

MS. BRUNNER: Because he called me in the kitchen.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did Gary expire while you were holding the pillow over his face?

MS. BRUNNER: He was still breathing.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: When did he stop?

MS. BRUNNER: He must have stopped when Sadie was holding it, I suppose.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Were you there?

MS. BRUNNER: Some, I walked back in the room and she says something, "It is all over with," or something like that, and --

SERGEANT WHITELEY: When did, when did you ever take blood and paint it on the wall, when did this occur?

MS. BRUNNER: That was, that was, we must have been out of the house. I don't think it was on the wall when we went back in the house, so it must have been after he really died, after that, you know, because his breathing stopped.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you ever see what was written on the wall?

MS. BRUNNER: I was told. No, I didn't see it.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Who told you?

MS. BRUNNER: Bobby told me.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What did he tell you?

MS. BRUNNER: He said he wrote "pig" on the wall and then he made a paw print.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What kind of a paw print?

MS. BRUNNER: A cat's paw print.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: That was it supposed to represent?

MS. BRUNNER: The Panther, the Panthers.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: When you say "Panthers," you are speaking of the Black Panthers?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did he tell you what he wrote it in?

MS. BRUNNER: In blood.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Whose blood?

MS. BRUNNER: Gary's, I imagine. There wasn't anybody elses around.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: When you left the house, didn't you take some clothing?

MS. BRUNNER: Our own clothing.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Didn't you take some other clothing that had blood on it?

MS. BRUNNER: Just clothing of, my coat, my cape I had worn up there had blood on it. I took that. We took the bandages that we had used that had been washed out but they still had blood stains on it.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: You took those to the car?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Whose car?

MS. BRUNNER: Gary's car.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What kind of car?

MS. BRUNNER: Volkswagen bus.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What color was the Volkswagen bus?

MS. BRUNNER: Red and white.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Is there anything on the sides of it that makes it distinguishable?

MS. BRUNNER: An eagle. It is in white on a red background.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did you start the car with the keys?

MS. BRUNNER: No, we didn't have the keys. We hot wired it.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Who is we?

MS. BRUNNER: Well, Bobby tried hot wiring it and couldn't get the wires together and I said, "Here, why don't you just cut them?" and I gave him my pen knife and he just cut them.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Where was Sadie?

MS. BRUNNER: She was in the back of the bus.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Where in the back?

MS. BRUNNER: She was in the back. She started in the front but he had so much trouble getting it started, she just got in the back.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: During the time you had Mr. Hinman in the house, did you ever find any pink slips?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Where did you find those?

MS. BRUNNER: In a little mail box in the living room.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And what discussion was made over these pink slips?

MS. BRUNNER: Well, first, Bobby asked Gary for a copy of his driver's license so he could copy his signature and he just signed his name to it, to date them a week or two earlier.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did Gary do this willingly?

MS. BRUNNER: He didn't make any fuss about it.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Anybody have a gun on him at the time?

MS. BRUNNER: No.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did anyone have a gun at that time?

MS. BRUNNER: There was a gun in the house but nobody was hold it.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did Robert have a knife?

MS. BRUNNER: I suppose he had it but I suppose it was at his belt. He wasn't holding it.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What was Robert carrying his knife in? Does he put it in his waist band or in his pocket?

MS. BRUNNER: Not his pocket. He carries it, it is outside his pants in some sort of sheath. I think it is a leather sheath.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Is that a hard or soft leather shealth?

MS. BRUNNER: Soft leather, I imagine.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Have any kind of design to it?

MS. BRUNNER: It has some inscription on it.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: On what?

MS. BRUNNER: On the blade, I think; something in Spanish.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Go ahead, Charlie. I have a few questions for you, Mary, but just one quickly. When you left Spahn Ranch with Bobby and Susan Atkins, what was your reason for going to the Hinman home?

MS. BRUNNER: To see if we could get some money from him.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: When you say "to see if you could get some money from him," to ask if you could get some money or take it by force?

MS. BRUNNER: To ask for it and if we didn't get it, take it by force.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Who asked you to go there?

MS. BRUNNER: Bobby, I suppose.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Who told Bobby to go there?

MS. BRUNNER: I don't know.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: What other name do you Bobby by?

MS. BRUNNER: Jasper Daniels.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Mary, when you arrived at the home, how as Gary dressed?

MS. BRUNNER: Pants and shirt. No, he might have had his pajamas on. I don't remember.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Do you recall seeing any bagpipes around the residence?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes, he played -- oh, no, he didn't play them. He played a recording. He played a little miniature.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Who played them?

MS. BRUNNER: Gary did.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: When you left, did you people take them?

MS. BRUNNER: When we left, they were in the Volkswagon so we took them. No, they were in one of the cars, anyway. They wound up out at the ranch.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: But they were in the house when you got there?

MS. BRUNNER: No, they were in his car.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Do you know how the kitchen table got broken?

MS. BRUNNER: During either the first or second fight, I don't remember.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: While you were in the house for two days with Mr. Hinman while he was on the floor wounded, did you and Robert and Sadie search the house? Did you go through drawers looking for house deeds or anything you could find?

MS. BRUNNER: No.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Nobody went through any drawers or anything?

MS. BRUNNER: I went through that steel case in the living room.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Like a money box?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes, like a money box, I guess. He doesn't have any, he didn't have any drawers or anything. Oh, yeah, the kitchen drawer. We took some tools.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: What kind of tools did you take out of that?

MS. BRUNNER: Just, you know, like screw driver and that sort of stuff.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Did you see how many times Gary got struck on the head with the gun?

MS. BRUNNER: Oh, several. I don't know how many.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: And this was done by who?

MS. BRUNNER: Bobby.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Did you ever see Sadie hit him?

MS. BRUNNER: No.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: All right. While you were at the house, did you ever call a doctor?

MS. BRUNNER: No.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: You took care of him yourself, medically speaking, the best you could?

MS. BRUNNER: As much as I could, yes.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Can you tell me why after he signed the pink slips over to you why you hot wired the car? Why you didn't just take the keys to the car, too?

MS. BRUNNER: See, when the guys left, Bruce and Charlie left Friday night, they took the keys.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Charlie Manson and Bruce Davis took the Fiat Friday night?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: That was the first night Gary was injured?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: They didn't have the pink slips signed that night, did they?

MS. BRUNNER: No. See, they used the keys. He had all his keys on the same ring. He had keys for the Volks and keys for the Fiat.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Did Gary give them permission to take the Fiat that night?

MS. BRUNNER: No, I don't know if anything was said about it at all.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: As you recall, did you take any clothes off of Gary?

MS. BRUNNER: I think after the first fight, his shirt was all bloody and so Bobby asked me to get him a clean shirt and either he took his shirt off or I helped him take his shirt off and put something clean on.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: All right. When you left him on the floor the last time that you saw Gary after you were holding the pillow on his head and after you went outside and Bobby climbed back out through the window, how was Gary dressed at that time?

MS. BRUNNER: Pants and undershirt, I think.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Tee shirt like?

MS. BRUNNER: Tee shirt.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Do you know what kind of pants he had on?

MS. BRUNNER: Just slacks. No, it might have been jeans, either slacks or jeans.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Was he laying on his back or on his stomach?

MS. BRUNNER: I think his back.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: The clothes that you took off of Gary when you changed for new clothes, what did you do with those?

MS. BRUNNER: I don't know.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Did they smell bad?

MS. BRUNNER: No, I never smelled them. That is, nothing that I ever noticed.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: All right. When you left, you said you took the gun with you?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Do you know what happened to the gun?

MS. BRUNNER: No.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Well, who did you give it to after you carried it outside?

MS. BRUNNER: Oh, I had it on me and then I left it in the car when we got back to the ranch, I don't know what happened to it after we got back to the ranch.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Why did you take the gun. Did somebody tell you to?

MS. BRUNNER: See, when we were going out, we were going to get out of there, we were going to hitch hike out of there, which you know, and, so, I don't know if somebody suggested it or I suggested it, anyway, I put the gun on so that, what was I going to do? I put it on way up here in a holster so that it would be hidden.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Then you covered it with a blouse or something?

MS. BRUNNER: With a blouse or something.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: If you were going to hitch hike, why did you take the clothes and bloody sheets?

MS. BRUNNER: I didn't want to hitch hike. I was dead against it because you know there isn't that much traffic, you know, and I didn't want to do it.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Did you throw the clothes, then, in the gully or anywhere?

MS. BRUNNER: I threw them in the garbage can.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: What garbage can?

MS. BRUNNER: Behind the restaurant.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Behind the restaurant at Topanga down --

MS. BRUNNER: Down by the Ralph's Market.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Is that when you went down for the coffee and strawberry cake?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Who told you to put them down there?

MS. BRUNNER: We took them along and we still had them with us and I think we just dumped it in there, just said, "This is a good place," and just dumped it.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Did she dump the gun in the garbage can?

MS. BRUNNER: No, I don't think so. I don't know what happened to the gun.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: When Gary was signing the pink slips for the car, there were no keys to either car in the house, and the Fiat was already gone with Bruce Davis and Charlie Manson?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Was Gary bleeding then?

MS. BRUNNER: When they left?

DEPUTY GUENTHER: No, no, when you left the last day after he signed the pink slips for Bobby, was he bleeding at the time he was signing the pink slips?

MS. BRUNNER: No, not really. This was sometime in the middle, sometime during the day. He was just lying, all day Saturday and all day Sunday, he just laid there. He didn't bleed then. The bleeding stopped sometime Friday night.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Just so I can get one other thing, when Bruce Davis and Charlie Manson took the car on Friday night, the Fiat, you said Gary didn't tell them they could have it?

MS. BRUNNER: I don't know if Gary said they could have it or not. I don't even know if Gary knew they took it or not. I don't know what happened. They had to get home. I don't know what they took it for.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: All right. You are telling us now that while you were outside in the little outdoor area by the tree, Gary started to gurgle loud or make some noise and Bobby had to crawl back through the window?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes, because we had locked ourselves out.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Now, you also said you went back in the house with him?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Did you see Bobby stab him the last time in the house?

MS. BRUNNER: No.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Then, how do you know he stabbed him?

MS. BRUNNER: It is, it is like Gary was laying there in a coma and Sadie and I went out in the next room and then Bobby came out and then Gary started that breathing so you figure something had to happen. He didn't have the gun. I had the gun.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: You were in the front room with him holding the pillow?

MS. BRUNNER: No, no, he didn't stab him again after we went back in the house.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Which one of you cleaned Bobby's knife?

MS. BRUNNER: He must have cleaned his own knife.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Did you see him clean his knife?

MS. BRUNNER: No, I don't recall seeing him clean it.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Gary told you to leave the residence how many times?

MS. BRUNNER: Several times the first night.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: He also told Charlie Manson and Bruce Davis to leave?

MS. BRUNNER: No, I don't know. There was, you know -- he asked us several times to go first before any fight ever started and then, and then, after the first fight, he just, "Please, we will forget it. We will call it scratch, just leave, get out of here," and then, after that.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: All right, something during the two days, somebody took some money from Gary, who did that?

MS. BRUNNER: I took some money from him.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: How much did you take?

MS. BRUNNER: About 20 bucks.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Where did you find the money?

MS. BRUNNER: From his wallet.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Did you take it from his wallet while Gary was still laying on the floor?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Who did you give the money to?

MS. BRUNNER: Put it in my pocket

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Who was standing there when you took the money from his wallet?

MS. BRUNNER: Sadie was there.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Did he give you permission to take the money from his wallet?

MS. BRUNNER: He was dead.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What you have told us so far, is this the truth to the best of your knowledge?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Now, stop and think before you answer this one: Isn't it a fact that Charlie Manson sent you people down to Gary Hinman's house?

MS. BRUNNER: No, that is not a fact unless Charlie and Bobby had some discussion before I got back from the ranch that I don't know anything about, but Charlie never said anything to me about going to Gary's house.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: When Bobby called Charlie Manson the first time, what was the conversation that you overheard from your end?

MS. BRUNNER: Something about, something about the fact that Gary had put up a fight and things weren't going the way he wanted them to go.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And what was it he asked particularly?

MS. BRUNNER: I don't know if he asked him anything in particular or not.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Was he just stating this to him about Gary was putting up a fight and wasn't cooperating?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And, you said approximately twenty to twenty-five minutes later Charlie Manson and Bruce Davis showed up at the house?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And Charlie had the sword?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: And, then, it was the second conversation, this was the following day and that is when Bobby called up the ranch, is that right?

MS. BRUNNER: You mean, that was Sunday.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: All right, Sunday?

MS. BRUNNER: This was Saturday night -- oh, yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: What did you overhear in that conversation?

MS. BRUNNER: That I didn't hear.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: You didn't hear any of it?

MS. BRUNNER: No.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: But Bobby came back to you and said, "We have to do Gary in?"

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Did he tell you why?

MS. BRUNNER: No (by shake of head). He says, "It is going to be tonight."

SERGEANT WHITELEY: It is going to be what?

MS. BRUNNER: Tonight.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Mary, did you ever see Charlie Manson or Bruce Davis hit Gary Hinman?

MS. BRUNNER: No.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Do you know how he got the slash on the side of his face that severed his ear?

MS. BRUNNER: He got it from one of those two, he had to.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Now, after everybody left on Sunday night, did anybody ever go back to the house?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Who?

MS. BRUNNER: Bobby.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Was anybody with Bobby?

MS. BRUNNER: Not that I know of. He told me about it and he talked like he was alone.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: What did Bobby tell you he went back to the house for?

MS. BRUNNER: He tried to erase that paw print on the wall.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: And how many days later did he go back to the house?

MS. BRUNNER: Two or three days after Sunday, Tuesday or Wednesday.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: All right. Did he describe to you what the house looked like or smelled like or anything like that?

MS. BRUNNER: He told me it smelled terrible. He could hear the maggots.

DEPUTY GUENTHER: Hear the maggots, what?

MS. BRUNNER: In Gary, eating Gary.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: Is there anything else you would like to add about this that we haven't covered?

MS. BRUNNER: There isn't anything else to it.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: This that you have told us is the truth to the best of your knowledge?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes.

SERGEANT WHITELEY: We will conclude this at 8:13 P.M.

***

The foregoing transcript, consisting of thirty-five (35) pages, is a true, correct and complete transcription of the original shorthand notes, recorded by me, and now in my possession. Dated December 5, 1969

Joyce P. Borum, Reporter