THE SERGEANT AT ARMS: Miss Pitman.

NANCY LAURA PITMAN,

called as a witness before the Grand Jury, was sworn and testified as follows:

THE FOREMAN: Will you state your name; please.

THE WITNESS: Nancy Laura Pitman.

THE FOREMAN: Will you raise your right hand and take the following oath:

You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give in this matter now pending before the Grand Jury of the County of Los Angeles shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

THE WITNESS: I do.

THE FOREMAN: Will you please be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MR. STOVITZ:

STOVITZ: Will you state your name and spell your first, middle and last name; please.

PITMAN: Nancy Laura Pitman.

STOVITZ: N-a-n-c-y is the first name?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: L-a-u-r-a?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: P-i-t-t-m-a-n?

PITMAN: One "t."

STOVITZ: And is it Miss or Mrs. Pitman?

PITMAN: Miss.

STOVITZ: Miss Pitman, I understand that you are under arrest for some charge in Inyo County at this time; is that correct?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: We do not intend to ask you any questions concerning that charge for which you are under arrest; do you understand that?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: I understand that you were also arrested on August the 16th, 1969, by the Sheriff's Office in Los Angeles County and thereafter released; is that correct?

PITMAN: Yeah, I believe so.

STOVITZ: We do not intend to ask you any questions concerning that arrest and I understand there are no charges pending from that arrest; is that correct?

PITMAN: No, there aren't.

STOVITZ: So, now, we are going to ask you some questions concerning ten days before August the 16th, 1969, as to where you were living, who you were associating with, and certain things of that nature.

Are you willing to answer these questions truthfully?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: And you understand that no one is forcing you to testify; do you understand that?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: First, I ask you whether or not you know the girl shown in photograph Exhibit 1.

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: And what is that girl's name?

PITMAN: Sadie.

STOVITZ: Sadie Glutz?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: Was she arrested with you on August the 16th, 1969?

PITMAN: I think so.

STOVITZ: I show you a girl depicted in Exhibit 5.

Do you know what that girl's name is?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: What is her name?

PITMAN: Linda.

STOVITZ: Is that Linda Kasabian?

PITMAN: Yes, I believe so.

STOVITZ: Was she arrested with you on August the 16th, 1969?

PITMAN: I don't believe she was.

STOVITZ: I show you another girl shown in Exhibit 3.

Do you know what her name is?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: What is her name?

PITMAN: Katie.

STOVITZ: Do you know her by the name of Patricia Krenwinkel?

PITMAN: I knew that was her name but she went by Katie with me.

STOVITZ: Was she arrested with you on August the 16th, 1969?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: I show you another girl, Exhibit 16.

Do you know what that girl's name is?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: What is her name?

PITMAN: Lovella.

STOVITZ: Is she also known as Leslie Sankston?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: Was she arrested with you on August 16. 1969?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: Now, without telling us what you are in custody for, was she, this girl in Exhibit 16, Leslie Sankston, in custody with you in Inyo County?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: Was she transported from Inyo County down to the Los Angeles County Jail about a week ago?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: And to your knowledge is she in custody at the Sybil Brand Institute right now?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: Now, I show you a man depicted in Exhibit 15.

Do you know what that man's name is?

PITMAN: Clem.

STOVITZ: Do you know him by any other name?

PITMAN: Steve.

STOVITZ: I show you another man depicted in Grand Jury Exhibit 4.

Do you know what that man's name is?

PITMAN: Chuck.

STOVITZ: Chuck. Do you know him by any other name?

PITMAN: Tex.

STOVITZ: And going back, now, to August the 16th, 1969, how long had you been living at the Spahn Ranch?

PITMAN: On and off for about a year.

STOVITZ: And going back to the ten days before August the 16th, 1969, what particular place did you live in?

In other words, where did you usually put your bed and sleep at night?

PITMAN: In a trailer alongside George Spahn's house.

STOVITZ: And George Spahn is the elderly gentleman, about eighty years of age?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: In this trailer did you have anything like a radio or TV set?

PITMAN: Sometimes a TV.

STOVITZ: Well, going back to August the 16th, 1969, did you have a TV, then?

PITMAN: I can't remember.

STOVITZ: Now, do you remember hearing anything about the Sharon Tate murders where five people got killed?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: Going back to the time that you were first arrested, August the 16th, when was the first time that you learned about the Sharon Tate murders?

PITMAN: The first time I heard about it I was driving in a car on the way to Bakersfield -- or, San Bernardino, and I heard it on the radio.

STOVITZ: Was this one day, two days, five days, ten days before August the 16th?

PITMAN: I'm not sure.

STOVITZ: All right, now, do you remember a man by the name of Danny DeCarlo being out at the ranch, this Spahn Ranch?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: Was there any incident that occurred sometime before August the 16th with relation to Danny DeCarlo?

PITMAN: August the 16th is the day we were arrested?

STOVITZ: Yes, by the Sheriff's Office.

PITMAN: No.

STOVITZ: Were you there on August the 15th at the Spahn Ranch?

PITMAN: Yes, early in the morning.

STOVITZ: And where did you go after that?

PITMAN: To the beach.

STOVITZ: And did you ever hear any motorcycles come up there or cause any row or disturbance?

PITMAN: No.

STOVITZ: Now, then, you said that you heard about the Sharon Tate murders while you were in a car driving towards San Bernardino.

Who were you with in the car?

PITMAN: John Schwartz.

STOVITZ: Was he one of the fellows that was arrested at the ranch with you on the 16th?

PITMAN: Yes, I believe he was arrested for something other than us.

STOVITZ: And what were you going out to San Bernardino for?

PITMAN: To pick up a ranch truck.

STOVITZ: Did you come back the same day?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: Now, when you came back to the ranch and you say you can't tell us whether it was one day before the 16th or ten days before the 16th; is that right, that you were driving out to San Bernardino, but it was before August the 16th; is that right?

PITMAN: Yes, I believe it was.

STOVITZ: Well, consider that after being arrested on August the 16th you were kept in custody about two or three days?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: And after coming out of custody you stayed at the ranch for about two or three days?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: And then you went where, up to Inyo County?

PITMAN: No.

STOVITZ: Where did you go after that?

PITMAN: To the beach.

STOVITZ: To the beach. Did you stay at the beach for a while?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: And then you went up to Inyo County?

PITMAN: No, I stayed at the ranch.

STOVITZ: At Spahn Ranch?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: How did you eventually get up to Inyo County?

PITMAN: I went to Death Valley on the 27th of September, I believe was the date.

STOVITZ: And how did you get up there?

PITMAN: I hitchhiked.

STOVITZ: Now, going back, again, to the time that you first heard about the Sharon Tate murders you say you were in a car going to San Bernardino to pick up a truck for the ranch and when you came back to the ranch did anybody talk about five people getting killed at the ranch?

PITMAN: Yes, I believe they did.

STOVITZ: Who talked about it?

PITMAN: Everybody, it was on the news and everybody was talking about it.

STOVITZ: What were they saying about it and who was saying it that was doing the talking?

PITMAN: I believe it was George.

STOVITZ: George is who?

PITMAN: He owns the ranch, he is the elderly man.

STOVITZ: And was Mr. Manson there living at the ranch at that time? Do you know who I mean?

PITMAN: Yes, I believe he was.

STOVITZ: You know who I mean by Mr. Manson?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: And was Susan Atkins living at the ranch at that time?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: And was Linda Kasabian living at the ranch at this time?

PITMAN: I'm not sure about her.

STOVITZ: What about Tex or Chuck as you call him?

PITMAN: Yes, I believe he was living there.

STOVITZ: And what about Miss Sankston, or Lovella, as you call her?

PITMAN: Yes, she was out there.

STOVITZ: Do you remember any of those people talking about the Tate case in any particular?

PITMAN: Miss Atkins talked about it. She was watching it on the television.

STOVITZ: Do you remember what she said about it?

PITMAN: She just said five people were murdered, stabbed, and that somebody wrote pig on the door.

STOVITZ: And did she say anything else that you can remember?

PITMAN: She said they were trying to -- they were trying to think of a reason why it had been done on the TV.

STOVITZ: On the TV they were trying to think of a reason?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: Did you ever see anybody dressed in black there at the Spahn Ranch?

PITMAN: No.

STOVITZ: Did you girls ever go out like on night raids or anything, while you were out there at the ranch? Did you see any of the girls go out on food raids to get food and things of that nature?

PITMAN: No, not at nighttime.

STOVITZ: When would they go out?

PITMAN: In the daytime, sometimes, down to the produce stand and behind some markets.

STOVITZ: Now, what is your birth date?

PITMAN: The 1st of January.

STOVITZ: So, August the 8th of 1969, would that mean anything to you at all if I asked you where you were on August the 8th, 1969?

PITMAN: No.

STOVITZ: What about August the 9th, 1969?

PITMAN: No.

STOVITZ: August the 10th, 1969?

PITMAN: Well, around that time, I don't remember exact dates, but around that time I was staying at Spahn Ranch.

STOVITZ: And did you see these individuals like Tex and Charles Manson and Clem and these girls around there at that time?

PITMAN: Yeah, they were in and out of the ranch all the time.

STOVITZ: Were they all together, generally, or were they off in different groups, or what?

PITMAN: They were off in different groups.

STOVITZ: Do you remember which groups got together the most?

PITMAN: Lovella and Katie were together quite a bit.

STOVITZ: By "Lovella," that is --

PITMAN: Leslie.

STOVITZ: Leslie Sankston?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: And Katie, that is the girl in the photograph which we have shown to you which is Grand Jury Exhibit No. 3?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: Now, did the girls ever carry knives that you saw, this Katie and Leslie Sankston?

PITMAN: When we were in the desert most of us had small knives for cutting cans open and cutting bushes, and things like that.

STOVITZ: And what about leather ties or leather pieces somewhat like Exhibit No. 56 or 57 here?

PITMAN: No, I never saw the girls with those.

STOVITZ: Did you see any fellows with thongs like that?

PITMAN: Yes, occasionally they'd wear them around their head.

STOVITZ: Do you remember who it was particularly that wore them?

PITMAN: Yes, Tex.

STOVITZ: That is Mr. Watson?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: Now, did you ever see any guns there at the ranch, particularly pistols?

PITMAN: No, I never saw any pistols, just some rifles.

STOVITZ: Do you know the difference between a revolver and an automatic?

PITMAN: Is an automatic a rifle?

STOVITZ: Well, I just wanted to know without telling you what it is whether or not you know the difference between the two.

PITMAN: No.

STOVITZ: I show you a picture of a gun, Exhibit No. 38.

Can you tell me whether this is a pistol or revolver or a rifle or an automatic?

PITMAN: I think it is a pistol.

STOVITZ: Did you ever see any guns like that out at the ranch?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: Who would be holding a gun like that?

PITMAN: Stunt riders.

STOVITZ: By "stunt riders," what do you mean, people that come out to shoot movies?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: When was that?

PITMAN: We would see these people out there in the summertime every couple of weeks.

STOVITZ: Now, did you ever hear Mr. Manson tell anybody to do anything that was wrong or to do anything that just -- you wouldn't consider to be completely right?

PITMAN: No.

STOVITZ: And did you ever see where Mr. Manson would stay at night?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: Where would he stay?

PITMAN: Wherever he decided to stay that night.

STOVITZ: You don't remember him staying any night with you; do you?

PITMAN: No.

STOVITZ: Especially going from the 1st of August to the 16th of August, which was the date that you were arrested, did Mr. Manson spend any particular night with you?

PITMAN: No.

STOVITZ: How old are you?

PITMAN: Eighteen.

STOVITZ: And do you know a boy by the name of Kim?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: And what is his last name?

PITMAN: Luster.

STOVITZ: Kim Luster was kind of living there at the ranch in August of 1969?

PITMAN: No.

STOVITZ: Were you originally from Los Angeles here?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: And were you familiar with the Spahn area before you went out there?

PITMAN: No.

STOVITZ: How did you first get out there?

PITMAN: I was living in Topanga, which is up the Coast Highway, and I moved there on a black school bus onto the back property of the Spahn Ranch where there is a small ranchhouse.

STOVITZ: Were you just doing that to get away from home, so to speak?

PITMAN: No, I was already away from home.

STOVITZ: And this was about a year and a half ago?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: And did anyone mistreat you out at the ranch there?

PITMAN: No.

STOVITZ: And when you are through testifying here you expect to be taken back up to Inyo County and handle whatever charges are against you up there?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: I have no further questions for this witness.

BUGLIOSI: You went up to Barker Ranch with the group; didn't you?

PITMAN: No.

BUGLIOSI: You were never at Barker --

PITMAN: Oh, yes, I was up there but I didn't go up there with them.

BUGLIOSI: You were up with the Manson Family; right?

PITMAN: Oh, yes.

BUGLIOSI: Did you read much on the ranch?

PITMAN: No.

BUGLIOSI: There were quite a few movie magazines on the ranch; weren't there?

PITMAN: There was a whole drawer of them.

BUGLIOSI: Do you know who got those movie magazines?

I remind you, again, Nancy, that you are under oath.

You know what that means?

PITMAN: Yes.

BUGLIOSI: Who got those movie magazines?

PITMAN: I don't know.

BUGLIOSI: Did you ever see anyone read those movie magazines?

PITMAN: The first time they were taken out of the drawer was when we were arrested and they were out on the front porch and we were looking at some of the pictures in them.

BUGLIOSI: You mean at the time you were arrested you were looking at the pictures?

PITMAN: Yes, they kept us there all afternoon. There was nothing to do, so we looked at the magazines.

BUGLIOSI: That is the first time you ever looked at the magazines?

PITMAN: Yes.

BUGLIOSI: Do you know how they got in the drawer?

PITMAN: No.

BUGLIOSI: No further questions.

STOVITZ: Thank you very much.

THE FOREMAN: You are admonished not to discuss or impart at any time outside of this Jury Room the questions that have been asked of you in regard to this matter, or your answers, until authorized by this Grand Jury or the Court to discuss or impart such matters.

You will understand that a violation of these instructions on your part may be the basis for a charge against you of contempt of court.

This admonition, of course, does not preclude you from discussing your legal rights with any legally-employed attorney, should you feel that your own personal rights are in any way in jeopardy.

Any other questions?

STOVITZ: Did you understand what Bishop said?

PITMAN: Yes.

STOVITZ: Thank you very much.

THE FOREMAN: You may be excused.