LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, THURSDAY, AUGUST 26, 1971,

1:40 P.M.

-o0o-

THE COURT: People against Watson.

Let the record show all jurors, counsel and defendant present.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Watkins, please.

PAUL ALLEN WATKINS,

resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

THE CLERK: You've been previously sworn.

Would you restate your name for the record?

THE WITNESS: Paul Watkins.

CROSS-EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY MR. BUBRICK:

Q: Mr. Watkins, I think this noon when we broke we were talking about belladonna and you were telling us about the batch you were brewing up in Spahn Ranch.

Do you recall that?

A: Yeah, I recall that.

Q: And you said that it was being prepared in some sort of a tea form, something to drink, I take it?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, when that was being prepared, was Mr. Watson there, if you know?

A: Yes, he was there.

Q: And did you see him do anything about the belladonna you were using?

A: Yes.

Q: What did he do?

A: He took a chunk of root about three-quarters of an inch long and about an inch in diameter and walked off chewing on it.

Q: Did you see him again that day?

A: No, saw him three days later.

Q: Three days later?

A: Yes.

Q: And what, if anything, did you notice at that time?

A: I noticed that he was bruised, was cut from one end to the other and had a big blackened, red and blue eye, looked like he had been in a heck of a fight.

Q: Can you fix the time of the year that this occurred in?

A: Yeah, it would be spring of 1968 -- no, '69.

Q: March-April of '69?

A: April.

Q: April of '69?

A: Seems like about April.

Q: And you had gone for three whole days; is that correct?

A: Yes. It seemed like about three days.

Q: Did you ever see him use belladonna at any other time?

A: No.

Q: I think you told us this morning -- I am sorry. Did you want to say something?

A: I just left shortly thereafter.

Q: I think you told us this morning you prepared this preparation at the request of Mr. Manson; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Did he tell you why he wanted it prepared?

A: Yes.

Q: What did he say?

A: He said he wanted to poison some guy. We were driving through the hills and we met some guy that kicked us off his land.

So he said he wanted to poison him and asked me if I knew any poisons and so I said, "Yeah."

So I made him up a batch of poison.

Q: This batch of poison that you are telling us is the belladonna that you were preparing?

A: Yes; also poison if you take too much.

Q: How much did you prepare, if you remember?

A: About a gallon.

Q: Did you ever see what became of that?

A: So far as I know, it got put on the shelf in the trailer and that was the last time I saw of it.

Q: I think you told us also this morning that in heavy doses, belladonna has a tendency to knock you out, as you put it; correct?

A: Yes.

Q: And with milder doses, however, you can function; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Does it have any peculiar characteristics on the body after you have taken it?

A: Yes.

Q: Like what?

A: Well, say, if you took a mild dose, a mild dose will only take you like on a three-day trip. Then you would have blurry vision for about a week after that and you would have a hard time moving your body and you forget what you was thinking about and forget what you was talking about.

You may be talking about something and then all of a sudden forget what you was doing and ask somebody to remind you of what you were saying or something.

Q: Now, did you ever take belladonna and speed together?

A: Yes. That is a common thing for people who take belladonna.

As a matter of fact, the Indians have an organic speed that they take with it, another plant on the desert.

They take the two together, because one puts you down and the other one compensates for the physical effect and keeps you up. The idea is so that you can still walk around and function and still operate.

Q: At the time that you took belladonna and speed together, did you thereafter continue whatever you happened to be doing?

A: What?

Q: Well, what happened when you took belladonna and speed at the same time?

A: It still doesn't cut down on the heaviness of the hallucination.

Belladonna is a hallucinogen. People call LSD a hallucinogen but it is not anywhere near as hallucinogenic as belladonna.

I mean, you hallucinate so strongly that you completely lose touch with what you would call reality.

In other words, if I were on belladonna now, I wouldn't necessarily have to be seeing all these people in this courtroom and all you. I may just be seeing some plum trees and the ocean and in another reality.

Q: You are completely detached from reality; is that correct?

A: Complete hallucination, yes.

Q: Do you move about? Can you move about?

A: Depending upon the dose. If you take it rightly, what I call rightly, if you take a moderate dose with some sort of stimulant, then, of course, you can still move about and still do what you are doing and still keep some kind of a cognizance about you, remember who you are and things like that.

THE COURT: You say a mild dose gives you a 3-day trip?

THE WITNESS: Yeah; so a strong dose would give you about a 10-day trip.

THE COURT: How about ¾ of an inch by 1 inch, would that be mild or a strong dose?

THE WITNESS: That would be a pretty moderate dose -- medium, I'd say.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Well, if we are on a scale, are we talking about mild, moderate or medium or severe?

A: Yeah.

Q: Where would this be on the scale?

A: It would be in the middle.

Q: But do you think one could function after chewing a piece of that belladonna the size you have described?

A: It all depends on the individual. I think you could function. I have eaten more and still been able to function.

Q: Is that without the assistance of some sort of a stimulant, like speed?

A: Well, you have, -- it helps to have the assistance of the speed.

Q: I think you told us the day you saw Watson walk off, he just walked off chewing the thing; right?

A: Yeah.

Q: You don't know whether he left the ranch or anything of that nature?

A: He did leave the ranch.

Q: Did you see how?

A: I believe he hitch-hiked off down the road, hitch-hiked and he said he was going to get his motorcycle out of the shop.

Q: Did Watson have a motorcycle, as far as you know?

A: As far as what he told me.

Q: Had you ever seen him with a motorcycle about the ranch?

A: No, I don't think the motorcycle had ever made it there. He got stoned and cracked it up before it ever came back.

Q: Who did?

A: Tex.

Q: Is it the same period, now, you are talking about, chewing on the belladonna?

A: Yeah.

Q: Can you tell us what Watson, you know -- describe him physically from the time you first saw him in 1968, something about his height and weight, how he appeared to you, physcially.

A: Yeah.

Q: Can you tell us about that, please?

A: It all looked quite normal, average; well, the same height as he is now, about six foot it looked like, and was much more filled out than he is now -- let's say, like I am -- much more filled out in the places and much more healthy looking. He was a very healthy looking young man.

Q: This is when you first met him?

A: Yeah.

Q: Now, how about when you left in about October '69?

A: Well, then physically he is still just about as healthy but his hair was getting really long and he was looking really scraggly about that time.

We was all getting to look pretty scraggly about that time.

Q: And how about the fill-out of his body, or filled out as you called it?

A: Well, it was later on that -- about in the summer - time when we came up to the Barker Ranch he had lost a whole lot of weight and he looked quite unhealthy to me.

Q: When was this, now?

A: In September.

Q: Of '69?

A: Yes.

Q: You say he looked unhealthy?

A: Yes.

Q: Can you describe or elaborate on that?

A: Well, looked skinny and pale and unhappy and discontent, so that would go for a mental unhealth and a physical unhealth, both.

Q: Do you know whether he had a tendency at that time to spit a lot or spit up a lot?

A: I think he did, I don't know; but I think he and Brenda both had that thing where they was always spitting up a lot.

Q: Is this characteristic of belladonna use, if you know?

A: Yeah, it is a characteristic of belladonna use. I wouldn't conclude that it came from that.

Q: In what respect is it characteristic of belladonna?

A: Belladonna creates a real heavy phlegm in your throat, like I was saying, "cottonmouth"; real, real heavy, like a thick mixture of peanut butter and honey in your mouth. You are always wanting to get rid of it some way or another.

Q: Mr. Watkins, you told us this morning, also, that many of the helter-skelter discussions you had with Manson were while you were under the influence of LSD; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Mr. Manson discuss helter-skelter to the same degree or as elaborately the very first time you heard it as you did the last?

A: No.

Q: How did it start out?

A: It started out in about New Year's -- as a matter of fact, it was New Year's Eve between 1968 and 1969, that Charlie was down in the city and the rest of the family was up at the Barker Ranch; and he came up to the Barker Ranch and he began talking about this album that the Beatles had out, it was newly out at that time, and about -- he said, "Are you hep to what the Beatles are saying," and began to say that the Beatles were prophecying a revolution and that they were really holes in the infinite, which means that God was talking through them because they were supposedly holes; and then from that time on -- then we began to write songs about the revolution, and from that time on it just grew from day to day, a little more was added onto it, and a little -- the picture would get a little more clearer; in other words, he'd add a little bit more to it, like the story that I told the court about how it was all to come down, how the revolution was to take place, that story wasn't told in one sitting down like I am telling it today. It was told over a period of five, six months to me, so it was built, you know, one little bit at a time; because I know it's really unbelievable to you people because I am sitting down and telling it, but it was something that sort of snuck up on me, you know, just a little bit at a time and it didn't really seem too farfetched when you are swallowing it just a little bit at a time.

Q: And it finally developed into the complete discussion that you have told us about now; is that correct?

A: Yes, it finally developed into a state of consciousness on my part and on everyone in the family's part.

We didn't know when it was happening -- like I'd look out the window and wonder if it was going to happen today, you know -- think what was the quickest way to get to shelter if it was to happen right now.

Q: Well, the shelter that you talked about was the hole, wasn't it?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you ever go out looking for that hole in the ground?

A: Yes.

Q: On more than one occasion?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you really believe it existed?

A: Like you would say, more I hoped that it did.

Q: What did he tell you you were going to find when you found the hole in the ground?

A: Well, he said that entrance, that the snakes would have made their home in the entrance of the hole, rattlesnakes, so that we would have to first of all learn how to get around the snakes, make friends with the snakes and then he said way down in the hole that there would be a city of gold.

And he read those words from the Revelation and that there would be a tree that had -- these words from the Revelation -- that there was a tree with 12 different kinds of fruit that changed every month and that there would be light but there would be no sun.

Q: Did anyone ever question him about that?

A: Not that I know.

Q: Did you believe it was so when he told it to you?

A: It was getting a little far out for me, but at that point, I didn't want to not believe it, because if I started -- I had already invested pretty near a year into that family and if I started not believing Charlie, then I would have had to discount all the thing I believed before, and that would have invalidated me.

I would have had to say, "You have been a fool" to myself.

Q: And you didn't want to make that kind of concession?

A: No, I didn't want to be a fool.

Q: Was this before or after you met Mr. Crockett?

A: What was?

Q: Looking for the hole?

A: Before.

Q: Is that one of the things you discussed with Mr. Crockett?

A: Yes.

Q: And is that one of the things that disenchanted you with Mr. Manson and his philosophy?

A: I didn't buy the idea of going down through a hole. No, that didn't particularly disenchant me.

Q: Did you think enough of it to go out and look for this hole in the ground?

A: Well, we would go out with Charlie and walk around the desert and surmise as to where it might be.

As a matter of fact, we ever bought $300 worth of maps one time so that we could study the desert and maybe find out where it was.

Q: Did Charlie have any thoughts about right and wrong?

A: Yes.

Q: What did he tell you about that?

A: He said there was no such thing.

Q: That is right or wrong?

A: Yes.

Q: And that everything was what? One way or the other?

A: Everything was all right.

Q: Anything you wanted to do was all right?

A: Yes.

Q: How about killing?

A: He said that was all right, too.

Q: Did he have any idea about the parts of a human being, so far as Devil, God, anything so far as that is concerned?

A: He said the white man was God. He was closest to God because his skin was white, but then also it was the Devil and that the Devil is God and that they are both one.

Q: And everybody had that in them; is that right?

A: Everybody had both things in them, yes.

Q: How about time? Did time mean anything?

A: Time mean anything?

Q: Yes.

A: He said there was no such thing as that, either.

Q: And did he say things like that in connection with the clock or things of that nature, calendars?

A: We didn't use them, clocks or calendars.

Q: Did you have any contact with the outside world?

A: Very little.

Q: Were there newspapers coming to the ranch, if you know?

A: Not that I know.

Q: Did you ever see a newspaper at the ranch?

A: No.

Q: Were there any radios at the ranch?

A: Not that I know.

Q: How about electricity? Was there electricity?

A: There was electricity.

Q: At Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: How about Barker?

A: No.

Q: I think you told us this morning about meeting Tex and Ella, as I think they were coming up the road. They had been to the city?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Tex look like he was on an acid trip then, if you could tell?

A: Yes, he did. As a matter of fact, he told me that he was.

Q: Could you tell by looking at him?

A: Yes. I could tell something was up.

Q: Did you ever hear of an acid known as orange sunshine?

A: Yes.

Q: How would that rate, if you can rate acid, as between heavy, mild, medium?

A: Generally, it is pretty heavy.

Q: How about white lightning?

A: Generally, that is pretty heavy, too.

Q: Were these types of acid available at the ranch, if you know?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Charlie have them under control?

A: Yes.

MR. BUBRICK: May I have just a minute, your Honor?

THE COURT: How much schooling have you had?

THE WITNESS: Up until I just about finished high school.

THE COURT: About finished high school. How old are you now?

THE WITNESS: 21. I lacked six months of finishing high school.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Mr. Watkins, do you ever remember Manson saying anything about killing a human being in relationship to the person who does the killing?

A: Yes. I have heard him talk about that.

Q: What did he say?

A: Well, he always talked about how we had to be willing to die for each other in the family, and that at the same time, we had to be willing to kill each other.

We had to be willing to kill for each other and we had to be willing to die for each other and we had to be willing to kill each other.

Q: Did he ever tell you if you killed a human being you would only be killing a part of yourself?

A: Yes, he did that.

Q: Did he tell you that that was all right?

A: Yes. He would say you can never really kill anyone, that there was no such thing as death, that you couldn't really ever kill anyone anyway and if you did, you was only killing because we are all one anyway, that you would be only killing yourself.

I didn't want to kill myself. So I didn't -- it didn't seem like it was all right to me.

Q: Mr. Watkins, can you tell us the male members who were in the family at or about the time you left? That would be October '69?

A: Yes.

Q: Who were they?

A: There was myself and Charlie Manson and Steve Grogan.

MR. BUGLIOSI: That is Clem Tufts?

THE WITNESS: Yes, Clem Tufts -- and Juan. You could call him a member, I guess. He was around.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Juan Flynn?

A: Yes. Danny DeCarlo and Bill Vance.

Q: Watson, of course?

A: Oh, yes, Tex, and there was some other guys that hung around but that was the essence of it.

Q: Do you think there were the principal members of the family, the names you have just enumerated?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Mr. Watson have his own thing going while he was in the family, if you know?

A: What do you mean his own thing?

Q: Yes. You told us about other members of the family being in competition, so to speak, with Mr. Manson?

A: I did?

Q: Well, didn't you tell us that Bruce Davis was competing with Manson, he had more ego than Manson, something like that?

MR. BUGLIOSI: I think that was Poston's testimony, the previous witness.

MR. BUBRICK: I beg your pardon, I turned too far.

THE WITNESS: It is true, but I didn't say it.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Well, did you ever hear Mr. Manson -- I'm sorry -- Mr. Watson arguing with Mr. Manson about control of the family?

A: No.

Q: Did he ever stand up to Mr. Manson in any regard that you are aware of?

A: No.

Q: Did he ever refuse to do anything that he was asked to do by Mr. Manson?

A: Not that I saw.

Q: Was there some incident that occurred between you and an automobile, taking of an automobile?

A: Yes.

Q: What was that?

A: That was about April of 1969 and Charlie told me to go steal a car, and preferably a four-wheeled drive vehicle that would carry a lot of supplies and a lot of people; and I didn't particularly care for the idea of doing it -- and it was all the way he did it, all the way he went about asking, and where I was at that point there was no way I could say no.

Even though I didn't want to, I had to. I did it. Anyway, it was either do it or leave, and so I said I would.

Then, once I said I would, there was no way of getting out of it then because Charlie said that if you didn't do what you said you would do, then you was just no good, that's all there was to it; and so I did. I stole it.

Q: And brought it back --

A: Brought it back to the ranch.

Q: -- to the ranch?

Did you bring it over to Mr. Manson?

A: No -- yeah, I did for a moment, and then he gave it back to me and said, "Take all the girls," or 16 of them, "and take them to the desert along with a bunch of supplies"; and so I loaded them all in the truck and started driving to the desert and got as far as Lancaster and we all got thrown in jail.

Q: Is this a milk truck of some sort?

A: Well, it was a great big van, like a milk truck, but it was four-wheel drive.

Q: Was Barbara Hoyt one of the people that went on the trip with you up to Lancaster?

A: I believe so.

Q: Incidentally, did you ever see --

A: Yes, she was.

Q: -- see Barbara taking any acid at the Gresham Street house?

A: No, I don't recall that she ate any acid there.

Q: How about Spahn Ranch?

A: I don't recall her eating any acid there, either.

MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further, your Honor.

MR. BUGLIOSI: A few more questions, your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUGLIOSI:

Q: You say that Tex acted dumb but he wasn't, in your opinion?

A: Yes.

Q: Would you elaborate on that?

A: Well, he never hardly ever talked, you know, like most people talk and tell you how smart they are by the way they talk. He never hardly ever did that, and he just seemed really, like he'd have dumb expressions on his face, you know, just sort of dumb looking like someone who really didn't care; but I knew that he wasn't, because of where he was.

I met him in Dennis Wilson's house; Dennis Wilson has $20 million; and I met him in a certain class of society where you just ain't too dumb to be there, most people you have to work to get there; and there was always good dope around there and there was always pretty girls.

Q: And Tex was right in the middle of it?

A: Most dumb people didn't get there.

Q: So you had the impression, then, that he wasn't dumb at all; is that correct?

A: Yes, and it is also my understanding that even if someone acts like they are dumb and to most people that they would appear to be dumb, somewhere inside of them that they are really smart.

Q: Did you have that impression about Tex Watson?

A: Yes.

THE COURT: How do you spell "helter-skelter"?

THE WITNESS: H-e-l-t-e-r s-k-e-l-t-e-r.

THE COURT: Did you ever see Manson write the word "Helter-skelter"?

THE WITNESS: Yeah.

THE COURT: How did he spell it?

THE WITNESS: I believe it was -- I don't remember -- because he wrote it one time on the wall of the nightclub at Spahn's Ranch.

THE COURT: How did he spell it then, do you recall?

THE WITNESS: No.

THE COURT: Did he have an "a" in helter-skelter?

THE WITNESS: I don't recall.

THE COURT: Are you through, Mr. Bugliosi?

MR. BUGLIOSI: Just two or three more questions.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: When did you meet Paul Crockett for the first time?

A: In the late May of 1969.

Q: At Barker Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: This was after you left Charlie and the family?

A: This was when I decided to leave Charlie and the family and I went to Barker Ranch and then Paul Crockett was there and I met him that day.

Q: How long after one ingests belladonna does it normally start taking effect?

A: About an hour and then for the first effects to come on, and then about four hours for the hallucinogenic effect, for the physical effects to start subsiding and then hallucinogenic effects to start coming on.

Q: With respect to this incident down at the Fountain of the World where Charlie asked you to go hang on the cross, what was your state of mind? Did you actually intend to hang on the cross?

A: I would have, and my state of mind was that I was fully willing to do it; but I also knew that if I was fully willing to do it that I wouldn't have to.

Q: So you knew that if you told Charlie that you would do it, he would tell you you didn't have to?

A: Well, yeah, but it wasn't so much just a matter of telling him. I mean, I could stand there, he was pretty sharp -- in other words, I could stand there and say, "Okay," but if I really didn't want to and I was shaking inside and it was apparent that I was lying and saying, "Okay, I will do it," then he would have still said, "Go ahead and do it."

Q: But if you had convinced --

A: That you would really do it, you had to really play the part.

Q: He would call if off, right, as he did?

A: As he did.

Q: You were enumerating some of the members of the family at the Barker Ranch when you finally left the family; you didn't mention the name of Bruce Davis.

Was he up there?

A: When I finally --

Q: In October of 1969.

A: Yes, he was.

Q: And he was a member of the family; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: And how would you describe Mr. Davis' relationship with Charles Manson?

A: Bruce was sort of competing with Charlie.

Q: Not completely subservient to Charlie?

A: No, he wasn't.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further --

THE WITNESS: He did --

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Go ahead.

A: He did what Charlie said; but he would just do it -- in other words, he would grudgingly do it.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.

RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. BUBRICK:

Q: Was Watson completely subservient to Manson?

A: Didn't seem he fought with Charlie like -- one time, one time only, did I ever see Tex ever -- Charlie ever tell Tex to do something and Tex begrudgingly do it, and that was one time when Tex had put a brand new motor in his dune buggy and Charlie came along and told him that he had to take it out and put this other motor in; and he kind of just said, "Okay," and he did it; but he did it like it was apparent that he really didn't want to.

Q: But he did it, anyway?

A: Yes, but that's the only time, I mean.

I saw Tex build a house because Charlie said, "Build a house." It is almost half as big as this room.

Q: Because Manson asked him to?

A: Yes.

Q: That was out at the Spahn Ranch, is that right?

A: Yeah.

Q: Who lived in the house?

A: No one; it wasn't intended for living in.

Q: What was it for, if you remember?

A: It was called the "In case place." In other words, in case anything happened to us and we all got arrested, we'd all meet at the "In case place," to get back together again.

Q: Now, you met -- you said you thought because Watson was at Dennis Wilson's and he had so much money that Watson had to be of that same class; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you have an idea that Watson had money?

A: Did I have an idea he did?

Q: Yes?

A: Yes. Figured he did.

Q: Just because he was at Dennis'?

A: Yes.

Q: Manson was there, too, wasn't he?

A: Yes, and I was there, too.

Q: And the girls were there, too?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you all feel they had money?

A: Well, I didn't exactly look, and Charlie didn't exactly look like they did.

Q: But did Watson look like it?

A: Yeah, he looked well dressed and --

Q: Do you remember what he was wearing that made you think he was well dressed?

A: I don't remember the exact clothes, but he was well dressed, nice clothes.

I had been wearing the same pair of pants for a year and a half and he had a new pair of pants on.

Q: He looked pretty straight; is that it?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did he still continue to look the same after he got back down to the ranch, or down to Spahn Ranch?

A: No, no, that's for sure.

Q: He looked like one of the -- like everybody else in the family?

A: Looked like one of the gang pretty soon.

Q: Did you carry on any discussions with Watson, with Tex, while you were at the ranch with him?

A: Very seldom.

Q: He wasn't a very talkative person, in other words?

A: No, he wasn't, not to me.

Q: Was this about the period that he seemed to be declining, as you told us about this noon, his appearance was changing?

A: You see, at that time I didn't notice any appearance change because I was looking pretty straggly, myself. I didn't notice that he was, you know, looking bad, because I didn't look any better; but after I left and went to the Barker Ranch and began working on myself there and building myself back together again and getting my body in shape and working for a living, then Tex came up and it about blew my mind, you know. I just said, "Wow, you really look bad." They all looked bad.

Q: Well, when you saw him at the time that you thought they looked bad, did he look about the same as you did when you last saw him at the Spahn Ranch?

A: No, he looked worse than the last time I had seen him. They all looked scared and unhealthy.

Q: Did you have occasion to talk with him while you were up at Barker Ranch?

A: Very little.

Q: Did he carry on any conversation with you when you tried?

A: I didn't try.

Q: And he didn't make any effort to talk with you either?

A: Oh, we sat by the pool one day and he said, "Helter-skelter is coming down," and I said, "Yeah, right"; and he ways, "Nice day," you know. We didn't get into any talks about anything.

Q: Was this what gave you the impression that he was just a dumb country boy?

A: Yeah, but I didn't mean dumb country boy in the way, like in a derogatory sense; I meant it in a real nice way.

Q: Did you ever hear anything very bright come out of Tex Watson? Anything very original?

A: I suppose I did but I don't recall it right now.

Q: He confined himself more to the maintenance and automotive repair than anything else, didn't he?

A: No one in the family came up with anything that was on their own.

Q: Just repeating Manson?

A: Everybody repeated Charlie's thoughts.

Q: Good, bad or indifferent, they repeated Manson's thoughts?

A: Yeah.

MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further, your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUGLIOSI:

Q: Watson wasn't a member of Manson's family when he was living at Dennis Wilson's place, was he?

A: No, he wasn't.

Q: It was during that period that you felt he was associating with quite a bit of class and money?

A: Yes.

Q: Watson became a member of the family laster on?

A: Quite a bit later on.

Q: You testified that Tex acted dumb, but you felt he was smart.

Was the only reason why you felt this way because he was associating with Dennis Wilson, or did you form this opinion as a result of your observing Tex over a long period of time?

A: Oh, I formed this opinion because Tex told me that he had a house on the beach that he was renting.

Q: In Malibu?

A: Yes.

I formed this opinion because of what I had said, the people he hung around with.

I formed this opinion -- in other words, I didn't think he was really smart. I just figured -- I just knew he wasn't stupid. I mean stupid like he didn't know anything, like a person can be dumb but still not be stupid.

A person can be dumb, in other words, they just aren't really intelligent, but they still might know something.

They may be a good carpenter anyway. They may be a good plumber anyway. They may be a good engineer anyway.

They may not to be too bright yet and I just didn't think he was really bright.

Q: You were aware that he was somehow involved in selling wigs?

A: No, I wasn't.

Q: Forgetting about the Dennis Wilson aspect, the fact that he was living with Dennis Wilson and associating with girls and money and good dope as opposed to bad dope, forgetting about that, was your impression of Tex Watson over the period of time that you knew him that he was acting dumb, but that he wasn't?

A: My impression was that he was acting dumb, that he really wasn't, but you see whenever I say that someone is dumb, I know that they are acting dumb because in my mind everyone is basically smart.

Q: You recognize that some people have very, very low I.Q.'s, don't you, Paul?

A: Yes.

Q: You are aware of that?

A: Yes. I am aware of that but still I say that they are acting dumb because maybe they were taught to be that way from the time that they were very small.

I still say basically everyone is highly intelligent and that some people use more of that intelligence than others and so the part -- then if they are not as smart as they really are, in other words, really and truly, then it is because they are lazy and that is why I say they are acting dumb.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BUBRICK:

Q: Did it occur to you that maybe he just was dumb?

A: It did occur to me but when I say that someone just is dumb, it is only their exterior that is dumb.

In other words, to my knowledge everyone inside is smart, is very, very intelligent and is very bright because we are all a piece of God and God is all wisdom and all knowledge and all intelligence and so it is how far they are from that. So when I say they were dumb, they are pretty far from their true selves.

Q: Did you ever have any impression that he was deteriorating mentally?

A: Not until I saw him in the desert.

THE COURT: At Barker Ranch?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: What impression did you have then?

A: I had the impression that he was deteriorating mentally and physically and emotionally and in every other way that a person can deteriorate.

MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUGLIOSI:

Q: Why did you form the opinion that he was deteriorating mentally?

A: Because he didn't -- he still talked the same way and he seemed much more subservient to Charlie, much more, just like nothing there any more.

You know how you just see these people over a period of time and they would be less and less there.

Just look at them and they are just like they are not even there.

So it is like -- I get that opinion by just looking at them, you see. You say "Wow, he is not there," because Charlie used to tell people not to be there, tell them to abandon themselves.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.

MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further, your Honor.

THE COURT: Not commenting on your credibility, Paul, you have got a great potential. I wish you would use it. Go back to school, son. You have a great potential.

THE WITNESS: Thanks for your advice.

THE COURT: You may be excused.