THE CLERK: Raise your right hand, please. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the matter now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

THE WITNESS: I do.

PAUL ALLEN WATKINS,,

called as a witness by the People, testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Thank you. Take the stand and be seated; would you state and spell your name, please?

THE WITNESS: Paul Allen Watkins, W-a-t-k-i-n-s.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I believe we have a stipulation here just for clarification, for the jury.

May it be stipulated that Charles Manson was released from Federal Prison at Terminal Island in March of 1967?

So stipulated?

MR. BUBRICK: So stipulated.

MR. KEITH: So stipulated.

MR. BUGLIOSI: May it be further stipulated that Manson and several other members of the family, Krenwinkel, Atkins, Van Houten and several other girls were arrested in early October, 1969, at Barker Ranch in Inyo County, California?

It was between October 10 and 12, 1969; so stipulated?

MR. KEITH: I will so stipulate.

MR. BUGLIOSI: And the arrests were not for the Tate-La Bianca murders.

So stipulated.

MR. BUBRICK: So stipulated.

MR. KEITH: So stipulated.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BUGLIOSI:

Q: Mr. Watkins, do you presently reside in Shoshonee, California?

A: Yes.

Q: And you live with Brooks Poston?

A: Yes.

Q: And Paul Crockett?

A: Yes.

Q: And you were also a former member of Charles Manson's family?

A: Yes.

Q: And you know defendant Watson, I take it?

A: Yes.

Q: Where and when did you first meet Mr. Watson?

A: In Dennis Wilson's house in the early summer of 1968, around July.

Q: Was Watson a member of the family at that time?

A: Not as far as I knew, no.

Q: Was Watson living at Dennis Wilson's at that time?

A: It appeared so, yes.

Q: How would you describe Watson during that period, the summer of 1968, at Dennis Wilson's?

A: Oh, I'd describe him as a young boy about six feet tall with shaggy brown hair about half as long as mine; and he had a truck and was just a really nice guy.

Q: What about girls?

A: Well, there was always girls around.

Q: Around him?

A: Dennis' house -- yeah; the only time I saw him was around Dennis' house.

Q: Did you see Tex around the girls?

A: Yeah.

Q: When and where did you meet Mr. Manson for the first time?

A: In the spring of 1968 in Topanga Canyon.

Q: So you met Mr. Manson before Mr. Watson?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you meet Mr. Manson at a home there in Topanga Canyon?

A: Yes.

Q: Who was with Manson at the time?

A: About three guys and 10 girls.

Q: You eventually became a member of Manson's family?

A: Yes.

Q: When was that?

A: In the summer of that same year, '68.

Q: After the family moved from Dennis Wilson's to Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: The family had moved to Spahn Ranch from Dennis Wilson's and you became a member of the family at Spahn?

A: I heard they were at Dennis Wilson's; I didn't know that.

Q: But you became a member while they were living at Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: Around July of 1968?

A: Yes.

Q: And how long did you stay at Spahn Ranch with the family?

A: I stayed with the family -- not necessarily at Spahn's Ranch -- until October 31 of 1968.

Q: What happened at that time?

A: The whole family moved from Spahn's Ranch to the Barker Ranch.

Q: How long did the family stay at Barker Ranch?

A: Until about mid-July of 1969 -- no, mid-January.

Q: 1969.

A: Yes.

Q: At that point did the family then move down to the Gresham Street address?

A: Yes.

Q: In Canoga Park?

A: Yes.

Q: And they stayed there for how long?

A: About two months, or months and a half.

Q: Now, when the family left the Gresham Street address, Brooks Poston and a few others went back to Barker Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: But Manson and the rest of the family went there?

A: At the Gresham Street --

Q: No --

A: When we moved from the Gresham Street house?

Q: Yes.

A: Went to the Spahn Ranch.

Q: How long did you stay at the Spahn Ranch?

A: I stayed there till May.

Q: Of what year?

A: Of '69.

Q: Where did you go from there?

A: I went to the Barker Ranch.

Q: And you stayed at Barker Ranch at that time and went where?

A: October of 1969.

Q: And you left Barker Ranch at that time and went where?

A: To Shoshonee.

Q: To live with Crockett and Poston?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Manson ever tell you when and how he started his family?

A: Yes.

Q: What did he say?

A: He said, it's when he got out of jail he started driving around town, riding around town on a bus --

Q: Riding around town where on a bus?

A: In San Francisco, I understood.

Q: The Haight-Asbury District?

A: He just said he started riding around town; and he went to the Haight-Asbury District and met a lot of flower children and started meeting girls and found out that girls were real easy there, real easy to get next to; and he said he just started getting more girls and more girls together and met Ella --

Q: Ella Jo Bailey?

A: And Mary --

Q: Ella Jo Bailey?

A: Yes.

Q: Mary Brunner?

A: Yes.

Q: Susan Atkins?

A: Yes.

Q: Squeaky?

A: Yes.

Q: That's Lynn Frome?

A: Yes. He said he met her there.

Q: Anyone else?

A: Not there. Then he said he went down the Coast and met Katie.

Q: Patricia Krenwinkel?

A: Yes -- said he got a Volkswagen bus and started driving around --

Q: He and the girls were driving around in a Volkswagen bus?

A: Yes; and they traded the bus for a school bus and started driving around and got more and more girls, he said; and then drove down the coast, made a trip to El Paso, Texas, and at the same trip they went to New Mexico.

He said they eventually wound up in Topanga Canyon, where I met them.

Q: Which is the spring of 1968?

A: Yes.

Q: I take it that Manson discussed helter-skelter with you; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Many times?

A: Many times.

Q: And he told you that helter-skelter was what?

A: It was a great big revolution, a big revolution where the black people would fight against the white people and everyone would fight against everyone else.

Q: Did he tell you how helter-skelter would start?

A: Yes.

Q: What did he say?

A: He said that some spades from Watts --

Q: Spades from Watts?

A: Yes.

Q: Go ahead.

A: -- would go into the rich piggy district up in Bel Air and just commit some really vicious murders, smearing blood all over everything and just hang limbs all over the place, and just really make some really vicious looking murders; and then he would go back and hide in the ghetto, in the cellars.

Q: Who would?

A: The spades; and then the white man in retaliation for all this vicious murders, would go into the ghetto and start shooting black people; and he would only shoot what he called Uncle Tom niggers, the garbage men and the ones that he could see; and he say the true black race would be hiding because they knew what was going to happen, and then --

Then the Black Muslims would come out of hiding and appeal to the American public by media of television and say, "Look what you have done to my people," thereby splitting the white man into two factions or many factions, but specifically two, those who were for black people and those who were against them.

They would start fighting each other, and then after they fought for a while and killed each other off, then the black people would come back and kill off the remaining whites; but all the while the family, who would be all white, would be hiding in the desert and then --

Q: Hiding where in the desert?

A: In a hole, in a big, big hole that was supposed to be in the desert, according to Charlie's prophecy; and then after the black people had killed everyone, they would re-establish the establishment and have the power.

Then they would get tired of it after a while and they would turn -- well, then Charlie would come up out of the hole with the family and they would have had their stomach full of killing and then they would recognize Charlie and turn everything over to him and he'd scratch him on his fuzzy head and kick him in the butt and tell him to go pick the cotton, and then we'd all live happily ever after.

Q: Did Manson ever say anything about whether the black man would know how to start helter-skelter?

A: Yeah.

Q: When did he say this?

A: In the spring of '69.

Q: Where at?

A: At Gresham house one time.

Q: What did he say?

A: He said the only thing Blacky knows is what Whitey showed him; and so that someone was going to have to show Blacky how to do it.

Q: Did he ever make any further statement about showing the black man how to do it?

A: Yeah, I was contemplating leaving the family and becoming very disheartened with the whole thing. He said --

Q: When was this, now? Let's establish the time.

A: This was in May of 1969.

Q: At Spahn Ranch?

A: At Spahn Ranch.

Q: What did Charlie say?

A: He said, "We are going to have to show Blacky how to do it."

Q: So in the spring of 1969 at Gresham, in Canoga Park, he said, "Someone is going to have to show Blacky how to do it"; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: In late May, was it, 1969, at Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: Charlie said, "We are going to have to show Blacky how to do it"?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, when Manson said this, what effect, if any, did it have on you?

A: Had a heck of an effect because I already knew how he had said it. It was supposed to be done and I didn't want to kill anybody. I didn't want to show him how to do it.

Q: So what did you do?

A: I left, left the family and went to the desert.

Q: How long after Manson told you that "We," apparently referring to the family, were going to have to do it, did you leave?

A: That day.

Q: You went up to Barker Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: You didn't want to have anything to do with helter-skelter?

A: No, I didn't.

Q: Because you knew this would involve killing?

A: I suspected such.

Q: You didn't want to kill anyone?

A: Correct.

Q: Did Charles Tex Watson ever speak about helter-skelter?

A: Yeah.

Q: What did he say?

A: He never said too much. He just liked to say "The shit is coming down, " every once in a while, "really coming down fast," which everyone around the family said that all the time -- "coming down fast."

Every time someone would go into the city and come back up to the ranch, say "Oh, boy, it's coming down fast. You should see it. Boy! Blacky is just really up tight. It is coming down fast."

I remember one time, which really impressed me that Tex really had gone for the whole idea of helter-skelter, when him and Ella and Mary went down to the city to do something and they came back and they both, they were all three of them shaking like leaves, you know, panting.

I met them coming up the road and they were like they had been running from something.

I said, "What's going on?"

They said, "Boy, it's really coming down," Tex said. He said, "It's really insane down there and it's coming down right now. I mean it's happening today."

I thought -- I just had never been impressed -- that is when I first became impressed that Tex was really -- really went for the idea.

Q: Of helter-skelter?

A: Yes. It was really real to him. It was really real to me, too.

Q: Did you come back to the ranch to pick up supplies in August of 1969?

A: Yes.

Q: You left for Barker's in May of '69 and then you came back in August of '69 to pick up supplies?

A: Yes.

Q: While you were there in August of 1969 -- was this early August '69?

A: Sometime in August. I don't actually recall. Yes, it would be early August.

Q: Before the Tate-LaBianca murders?

A: I don't know when they were.

Q: They were August 9th and 10th, 1969.

A: Oh, it would be around then.

Q: Okay. Did Tex say anything to you during that period about helter-skelter or the black man?

A: Yes. He said "Blacky really got his shit together. He is uptight and coming down fast."

Q: This is what Tex told you?

A: He was sitting in there working on some dune buggies in the saloon. There was a big dune buggy in the saloon. He was standing there working on it.

Q: He said blacky was uptight?

A: Yeah.

Q: Charles Manson, of course, was the head of the family; is that correct?

A: That is correct.

Q: Did Manson ever tell you what role the women had in the family?

A: Yeah.

Q: What did he say?

A: Well, he said it like this: He said that first God created the white man and then he created woman for his pleasure and to serve him and then he created black men to be the servant for them. That is the way he said it.

Q: To be the servant for whom?

A: For the white man and the white woman.

Q: Did Manson frequently speak about the function of a woman, the role of a woman?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you ever hear him speak about the function of a woman in front of Tex Watson?

A: I don't recall any exact instance where Tex was there but I know Charlie talked about it all the time about how women were supposed to do what men said.

Q: Would Charlie say this to the entire group?

A: Yes, all the time.

Q: So very frequently, Charlie spoke to the whole family and told them that woman should what? Serve the men?

A: Yes.

Q: In this group, would there be Patricia Krenwinkel?

A: Yes.

Q: And Susan Atkins?

A: Yes.

Q: And Leslie Van Houton?

A: Yes.

Q: This would be at nighttime around the fire?

A: Just about all the time. He impressed that point upon everyone.

Q: Including those three girls: Katie, Sadie, and Leslie Van Houton?

A: Yes.

Q: And you assumed that Tex was also present during many of these discussions?

A: I assume such.

Q: Did you ever see any girl in the family tell any man to do anything?

A: No.

Q: Did you ever see any girl in the family tell Tex Watson to do anything?

A: No.

Q: Do you recall any incident at Spahn Ranch where Tex Watson gave instructions to other members of the family?

A: Just once instance.

Q: What instance was that?

A: The only time I ever saw him do anything like that, we took a trip up Devil Canyon. Charlie told us to go to Devil Canyon and survey the canyon.

Q: When was this?

A: About the time we were living in the Gresham Street address and moving to Spahn Ranch.

Q: This would be about March of 1969?

A: Yeah.

Q: And where is Devil's Canyon in relation to Spahn Ranch?

A: It is over a hill east.

Q: Would you relate this incident?

A: Well, on that particular trip Tex was sort of leading the trip.

He was leading us up mountains. "We got to go to that mountain over there," and we would go over and look at that mountain.

Then "We've got to get up on top of that mountain over there," and we would get up on top of that mountain.

"We've got to go down there."

We all got pretty perturbed at him because he led us all over the hills.

Q: Who was Tex leading? You and who else?

A: Me and Clem.

Q: Clem Tufts?

A: Yes, and some girls, Gypsy and Snake and Stephanie.

Q: Stephanie Schram?

A: I don't know.

Q: Her name was Stephanie?

A: Yes.

Q: Who else?

A: I think that was all that was on that trip.

Q: Tex and about five other people?

A: Yeah.

Q: You have taken LSD, of course?

A: Yes.

Q: About how many times?

A: Somewhere between 150 and 200 times.

Q: What effect would this LSD have on you?

A: On me?

Q: Yes.

A: Depending upon the dosage and the kind of LSD that it was, it would have a great effect or not very much.

Q: What type of an effect?

A: The type of an effect is everyone is familiar with sleeping pills. Sleeping pills kind of make you drowsy and make you want to go to sleep.

LSD has the opposite effect. It makes you wake up and it just makes you really super awake.

As a matter of fact you get so wide awake that you don't like it because you just can't go to sleep and you can't keep from -- you just really get woke up and you imagine, some people if they were really in a very awake state, they get very tense and get very electric.

Q: You became very aware of everything around you?

A: Yes, really aware. That would go along with waking up.

It actually does so far as I see heighten awareness. You become aware of little things you never saw before.

Q: For instance?

A: Like texture of things and the smells of things and you spend a lot of time looking at things that you never noticed before like leaves and rocks and people's noses and just all kinds of things that you never saw before, but you never hallucinate. You never see anything that wasn't there. I never did.

Just what I saw was there. So far as hallucinations went I would only sometimes I would see auras or halos around things, like everything would have a sort of a tint around it, like a halo or a glow.

Q: You never saw an object while under the influence of LSD that wasn't in fact there?

A: Yes, I never saw anything you couldn't just pick up and move it around or something that wasn't really there anyway.

Q: Were you aware of everything you were doing while you were under the influence of LSD?

Like I have taken LSD at times and you are aware of what you are doing while you are doing it, but then later on the effect of it wears off and you are not aware of what you were doing then, and it remains like a dream that you had that you don't very well remember.

Q: Say you took a trip, while on a trip? Let's say you took a trip from Spahn Ranch to Canoga Park.

A: Yes.

Q: Later on would you remember that?

A: Perhaps, depending upon the dose you took

If you took a heavy dose, you may be so preoccupied with looking at the doorknob or something, or looking at something else or thinking about something, or looking at something else or thinking about something else that you had no awareness at all of having gone anywhere, just the fact that you were in a car.

Q: Normally, you would remember what took place?

A: Normally you would because normally I didn't take doses that huge.

Q: Did you ever see Charles Manson take LSD?

A: Yes.

Q: How about Patricia Krenwinkel?

A: Yes.

Q: Susan Atkins?

A: Yes.

Q: And Leslie Van Houton?

A: Yes.

Q: Frequently, at least these four?

A: Yes.

Q: What about other drugs? Were other drugs used in the family?

A: Yes.

Q: Like what?

A: We used other psychedelic, psyche-pharmaceuticals. Psilocybin, mescaline, a small amount of belladonna, hashish, marijuana and opium a few occasions, peyote.

Q: How many times have you taken belladonna?

A: Approximately 20 times.

Q: What effect did belladonna have on you?

A: Belladonna is -- I drew a picture of how LSD was in relationship to sleeping pills.

Well, belladonna is more like a sleeping pill, except for like a psycho-pharmaceutical. It doesn't affect the body only, it affects the mind. It affects the body in such a way that it lays you down flat. Then your mind has an experience you could say.

Q: Kind of knocks you out?

A: Knocks you out, yes. Then you do hallucinate and you do see things that aren't there.

Q: Did you ever take LSD with Tex Watson?

A: Yes.

Q: On how many occasions?

A: Well, one occasion which I told you about earlier and then I guess about five times.

Q: During what period of time?

A: All the time I knew him when I was with the family from the summer of '68 until the summer of '69.

Q: How would Tex act when he was under the influence of LSD?

A: Really weird.

Q: Could you describe that to the judge and jury?

A: He was always -- he always acted different than most people did because I can remember many times we would take a trip and Tex would come on, in other words, he would start being affected by it before anyone else would.

I would already have taken the tablet and be waiting for it to have an effect and he would already be -- his eyes would be popping open like he was seeing things that was hard to believe and he would start moving his head around just really in a weird fashion looking around.

So it became apparent that he was coming on before I was and was generally weirdly coordinated, didn't have -- it seemed like it really had a strong effect on him.

Q: You say that while Tex was under the influence of LSD he was weirdly coordinated?

A: Yes.

Q: Would you elaborate on that a little bit?

A: He just -- most of the time I remember he would just sit down because it seemed like his body would move around, and in a really weird fashion; like sort of flowing around like a drunk would.

Q: You are describing the way Tex would act under the influence of LSD?

A: Yes.

Q: That is why you say he was weirdly coordinated?

A: Yes.

Q: Would you say normally he would sit down?

A: Except for a couple of trips when he was up running around, but normally on heavy trips, and the family would take a trip together, just sit down and watch the trip.

Q: Tex would sit down and watch the trip?

A: Yes.

Q: Would you describe him as being carefree while under the influence of LSD?

A: I'd describe him as being carefree all the time.

Q: Each time under the influence of LSD?

A: Yeah.

MR. BUGLIOSI: That is all. No further questions.

THE COURT: Suppose we have our morning recess at this time.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will have our morning recess at this time and again please heed the usual admonition.

(Recess.)

THE COURT: People against Watson.

Let the record show all jurors, all counsel and the defendant are present.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, may I just ask two or three more questions?

THE COURT: Go ahead.

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You have heard of speed, of course?

A: Yes.

Q: What type of drug is speed?

A: It is an amphetamine.

Q: Was there quite a bit of speed out at the ranch?

A: Not until late spring of '69.

Q: And from that point on there was quite a bit of speed out at the ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you take speed on several occasions?

A: Yes.

Q: What effect would speed have on you?

A: Speed is a waker-upper. It is a wake-up pill, but it is not like LSD is a waker-upper; it just wakes up your body, like you have a lot of body energy.

Q: It animates you, gives you energy?

A: Yeah, you could stay up for three or four days at a time.

Q: But it doesn't affect the mind?

A: Not directly, no -- you might get your mind affected if you stayed up for three or four days at a time.

Q: But the direct effect of the speed is to affect you physically, not mentally?

A: Yes.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BUBRICK

Q: Mr. Watkins, do you remember how you characterized Tex in the last trial? Do you remember being asked to describe Mr. Watson?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember how you described him now?

A: Yes.

Q: How do you describe him?

A: Sort of a dumb old country boy.

Q: Anything else.

A: Not that I recall.

Q: You also said he didn't really care about too many things. Do you remember that?

A: Yes, sir. He was a carefree type.

Q: You didn't say carefree; you just said he didn't care about too many things.

A: I don't actually recall.

Q: You said he was always fixing something or doing something?

A: Yes.

Q: He didn't say much?

A: Yes.

Q: But you like him?

A: Yes.

Q: Was he a dumb old country boy, so far as you were concerned?

A: No. He just act like it. I knew he wasn't.

Q: How did he act dumb?

A: Well, not really stupid type dumb, just kind of like a little puppy, a little puppy dog. You would say a puppy dog was dumb, because it will run up, you know, and just be real happy, to something that might be of danger.

Q: He didn't know a danger situation when he saw one?

A: I am not saying that. I am saying like he was so likable and so happy all the time. He was just like, you know, you would think he was dumb.

Q: He wasn't very philosophical, was he?

A: No, not to me.

Q: Did you ever hear him say anything that was original or new, something you hadn't heard Manson say before?

A: I don't think so.

Q: Well, did he talk much about anything at all that you remember while you were around him?

A: No, not much.

Q: He usually was pretty busy working on mechanical objects of one sort or another?

A: Yes.

Q: He stayed pretty close to the dune buggies, the trucks, the automobiles, or things of that nature?

A: That is correct.

Q: And perhaps other mechanical contrivances, didn't he?

A: Yes, that is right.

Q: He never really got involved in the philosophy of Manson or the Manson family as such, did he?

A: Oh, I wouldn't say that.

Q: What I mean is, he wasn't a lecturer. He didn't talk to the group about philosophy?

A: No. I never heard him do any lecturing.

Q: I can appreciate that as a member of the family he might, you know, repeat helter-skelter or the stuff is coming down?

A: Definitely being there you either buy it or you don't. And if you stay there you buy it.

Q: And he bought it; is that right?

A: Yes, it was apparent to me.

Q: What is that?

A: It was apparent to me.

Q: You were buying it, too, for a long time, weren't you?

A: Yes, sir.

Q: As a matter of fact, you thought Manson was Jesus Christ, didn't you?

A: That's correct.

Q: And you thought, really and truly, that he was Jesus Christ, didn't you?

A: Really and truly.

Q: And you thought he was the Christ who had been crucified, didn't you?

A: Yes.

Q: You thought he was the true Christ?

A: Yes.

Q: How long did you feel that way about him?

A: Up until the time of when I became really disheartened with the family and he started telling me how he was going to have to show blacky how to do it, how to start helter-skelter.

Q: Can you fix that in terms of time for us?

A: Yeah, late -- when I began to look around and see that things weren't the way I thought they were would be about the spring of 1969; and I still would have fleeting feelings of maybe, well, he really is and I'm messed up, because I got away from him, you know, I'd still have feelings like that as far as a year, year and a half afterwards; but as they would come in, then I would look at them as it is a matter of weeding out my own consciousness and getting myself straight.

Q: You mean that after you had separated from the family you would still think about Manson and his philosophy?

A: The thoughts still lingered in my mind, yes.

Q: And were you still not sure whether he was right?

A: Yeah.

Q: In other words, there was a kind of feeling of ambivalence; you didn't know whether to believe or disbelieve at that time?

A: Right.

Q: And you couldn't make yourself decide whether or not what he told you was true or not true?

A: I sooner or later did, yes.

Q: Can you tell us, Mr. Watkins, how that change that came about in your thinking relates, if it does, to your meeting with Paul Crockett?

A: Yes, well --

Q: Did it happen at or about the time you met somebody by the name of Mr. Crockett?

A: Yes, it did. I will tell you about it. I was telling you I began to get rather disgusted and disheartened with what was going on at the ranch, because it got to be a revolution type scene where everyone was talking about revolution and we were collecting guns and building dune buggies and things like that --

Q: Let's stop this; let's tell us about collecting guns.

When did you start to do that?

A: It was about the spring of 1969.

Q: Who collected the guns?

A: Oh, Danny brought a gun --

Q: Danny DeCarlo?

A: Yes.

Q: A member of the family?

A: You could call him that; he hung around.

Q: Pretty frequently, did he?

A: Yes.

Q: And for some period of time?

A: Yes.

Q: And he brought guns; who else did?

A: Phil Vance brought a gun.

Q: Well, Phil Vance was pretty much of a thief, wasn't he?

A: Yes.

Q: Didn't he turn the proceeds of that over to Mr. Manson?

A: Sometimes.

Q: How did the family live?

A: We got our food from the back of supermarkets. The girls would go in the back of the supermarkets --

Q: Garbage runs, things like that?

A: Garbage runs.

Q: Anything else?

A: Later on, if things got to be towards more my disliking, we started getting credit cards and going out and -- now, on hot credit cards and things -- and buying all kinds of stuff.

Q: Did you participate in that at that time?

A: No -- I used credit cards to get gasoline a couple times.

Q: Credit cards that were stolen or, at least, didn't belong to you?

A: Well, if they were stolen, I never knew about it. In other words, it would be just a credit card, "Where did this come from?" "Oh, someone gave it to me."

Q: You really didn't care where it came from?

A: No, I just wanted to get gas in the truck or something.

Q: What else; how else other than credit cards?

Incidentally, did you ever buy food with credit cards?

A: Yes; I never did, but I have seen it done.

Q: Did they buy clothing with credit cards?

A: Yes.

Q: Did they buy any weapons with credit cards, if you know?

A: Yes.

Q: Did they?

A: Yes.

Q: What did they buy with credit cards?

A: Knives.

Q: Were these the knives that the girls carried?

A: Well, the knives that everyone carried.

Q: Everyone carried -- did you carry a knife?

A: Yes.

Q: It wasn't unusual for everybody to have a knife, was it?

A: No.

Q: Anything else you can think of?

A: Tires, batteries, battery acid, dune buggy parts.

Q: On credit cards?

A: Yes.

Q: Anything else?

A: That's about all I can think there was; I think we covered just about most of the stuff.

Q: Is this now while you are Spahn Ranch?

A: And after, yes.

Q: How about at Barker's?

A: There is no stores at Barker Ranch.

Q: How did they live up there, do you know?

A: Took runs into the city.

Q: You mean they came back to Los Angeles?

A: Yes, go back and forth to Los Angeles or Las Vegas.

Q: And buy things there and bring them back to the ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: Are there any stores at all around the Barker Ranch?

A: No.

Q: Is that anywhere around Olancha?

A: It is over 100 miles, I think, or maybe about 100 miles away.

Q: From Olancha?

A: Yes.

Q: Are you familiar with the Olancha area?

A: Yes.

Q: Have you ever stayed around there?

A: For a few days in Independence.

Q: Is Independence close to Olancha?

A: Yes.

Q: How far?

A: I think it is about 30 miles up the valley.

Q: 30 miles north of Olancha?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you ever live with the family at Olancha?

A: No.

Q: Are there any stores or anything of that nature in Olancha that you know of?

A: Yes.

Q: Is it some sort of a community?

A: Yes.

Q: About how large, if you know?

A: I think it is rather small, but I was relating to you -- I didn't finish answering your question -- about what Paul Crockett had to do with me changing my mind around there.

He just sort of -- I was already really discontent with the whole thing, and just talking with him, he was like a link into the outside world, someone who I could communicate to on the outside world.

Q: Was he a miner or anything that happened to be in the neighborhood?

A: A prospector in the Barker Ranch country. We just started talking and I would say something that was real to me, like "Helter-skelter is coming down," and he said, "You really believe that?"

I would look at him like is it possible to not believe it, you know. I thought everyone believed it, you know. I thought it was a way out.

Q: For the sake of saving time then I take it as a result of your conversation with Mr. Crockett, there were certain doubts that formed in your mind about the relevancy of Mr. Manson's philosophy; is that correct?

A: Yes. There were doubts and decisions on my part that I made.

Q: Did you actually leave the family at that time?

A: Yes.

Q: And that is what? In the summer of '69?

A: Yes.

Q: And you went where?

A: To the Barker Ranch.

Q: That is before the family got there; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: And was your living at the Barker Ranch, or this Barker Ranch area, quite independent of the fact that the family came up there later on?

A: Quite independent, yes.

Q: You had nothing to do with the family once you went to the Barker Ranch area; is that correct?

A: I had nothing to do with them once they went?

Q: Yes.

A: I still had something to do. They were all friends.

Q: I mean aside from any socializing or seeing them.

A: I wasn't going to get involved in their trip any more.

Q: Were you up there with Mr. Crockett perhaps?

A: Yes.

Q: And Mr. Poston?

A: Yes.

Q: Three of you?

A: Some other fellows too.

Q: Whatever you were doing up there was, as I say, quite independent of the fact that the family happened to come up there later on?

A: Yes.

Q: I think you said you met Manson and the group in 1968; is that correct?

A: That is correct.

Q: And that was at Dennis Wilson's?

A: No. That was at Summit Drive in Topanga Creek.

Q: Had you ever been with the family at Dennis Wilson's home?

A: Yes.

Q: Is this prior to meeting or becoming a member that you met Manson and the family?

A: That was the day on which I did join up with them.

Q: Well, you met, I thought you said, you saw Manson and some of the family at Wilson's in the summer of '68.

A: Yes, that is correct.

Q: And how many people did Manson have with him then, if you remember?

A: Less than before. There was five girls and he and Brooks Poston and Clem.

Q: Was Poston somebody you happened to meet after he joined the family? You met him for the first time after he was a family member?

A: Yes.

Q: You hadn't known him before then, I take it?

A: No, I hadn't.

Q: When did you meet Watson? In August of '68 or thereabouts?

A: That first night when I went over to Dennis' house I met him there.

Q: The first time you went to Dennis' you saw Watson?

A: It would be June or July of '68.

Q: At any rate, the first time you went to Dennis' you saw Watson there; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: How did you happen to get to Dennis', if you remember?

A: Yes. I drove there in a truck with Charlie Manson.

Q: You had met Manson prior to this occasion; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: How long had you know Manson before you went to Dennis Wilson's?

A: A few months.

Q: Had you been sort of palling around with him?

A: No. I'd only met him on one previous occasion a few months prior.

Q: The day you came up there with him and the day you met Watson you obviously had met Manson somewhere along the line; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Was he taking you up to introduce you to the family?

A: Well, the family was staying at the Spahn Ranch then. He was taking me up to introduce me to Dennis.

Q: I thought there was some of the girls living at Dennis', also members of the family.

A: Not at that time.

Q: Let's confine ourselves then to this day on which you met Watson. I thought that was the very first time you met Dennis also.

A: It was.

Q: It was in the summer of '68?

A: Yes.

Q: And that is when Manson brought you up there?

A: Yes.

Q: Were there any girls there at that time?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you meet the girls then?

A: They weren't Charlie's girls. They were some other girls.

Q: Do you remember who they were?

A: I remember their faces and remember one of their names, a girl named Diane is all I can remember.

Q: Diane Lake?

A: No. I said it wasn't any of the girls in the family that were there.

Q: How long did you stay then?

A: Just for a few hours.

Q: Was your home in California at that time, Mr. Watkins?

A: Yes.

Q: You came from California originally; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: How long had you been away from home if you were away from home at all?

A: At that time I had been away from home for two years.

Q: What area of the state do you call home?

A: This area.

Q: Los Angeles area?

A: Yes.

Q: How old were you then?

A: 18.

Q: Can you tell us your first impressions of Watson when you met him at Dennis Wilson's that night?

A: Hardly anything. I didn't hardly have any impression. I just sort of noticed he was a person there and didn't really pay him too much mind.

Q: Did you talk to him at all?

A: No, not other than hello, how do you do.

Q: Do you remember how he was dressed?

A: No.

Q: Did you use any drugs that night?

A: Yes.

Q: What did you use?

A: We smoked some marijuana that night.

Q: Did you get to talk to Watson at that time?

A: No. I don't believe he smoked it with us.

Q: He didn't use it at all then, as far as you know?

A: Not that night.

Q: Not that night?

You went on, then, from -- you went to the Spahn Ranch, then, in the summer of '68, is that about when you joined the family?

A: Yes.

Q: And if I remember correctly, you stayed at the Spahn Ranch until about October of '68; is that correct?

A: Yes, October 31.

Q: And then, if our chronology is right, in October of '68 you went to Barker's Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: And you stayed there until sometime after the first of the year in 1969?

A: Yes.

Q: Then in January of '69 you came down to Gresham Street; is that correct?

A: That's correct.

Q: And you stayed there until March-April of '69, a couple of months?

A: Mm-hmm.

Q: And then after that March-April date of '69, you moved back to the Spahn Ranch?

A: Yeah, except we moved one house in between there; we moved to a house up in Mulholland Drive.

Q: How long did you stay there?

A: Oh, about 10 days.

Q: Then, with the exception of that, in early '69, March-April of '69, you stayed at Spahn Ranch until about June of '69, the summer of '69?

A: Yes.

Q: And then in the summer of '69, June or thereabouts, you went back up to Barker's until October of '69; right?

A: Yes.

Q: And that's when you left the family and went to Shoshonee; is that right?

A: That's when I left the desert and went to Shoshonee -- well, left Barker Ranch; it's still in the desert.

Q: Now, I think you said when you met Watson, he had a truck, and I take it some other possessions, did he?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you know what happened to the truck?

A: Yes.

Q: What happened to it?

A: Eventually gave it to Charlie.

Q: Is that a common procedure --

A: Yes.

Q: -- everybody gave their worldly possessions to Charlie; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: And then Charlie just took control of them, did he?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Charlie then treat it as his own?

A: Yes.

Q: Did it become, in fact, his own?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you turn anything over to Manson when you joined the family?

A: My whole life.

Q: Well, I am talking now of any material matter that you may have had?

A: I didn't have anything.

Q: When you say you turned your whole life over, you mean your spiritual being; is that correct?

A: My body and my mind and everything else that goes along with it.

Q: As a matter of fact, that was a pretty common thing; that was demanded of everybody who joined the family, wasn't it?

A: Yes.

Q: The family actually was Charlie's law and Charlie's will, wasn't it?

A: You could say that.

Q: And he demanded total submission from all the men and women alike, didn't he?

A: Yes.

Q: Even in sexaul matters?

A: Yes.

Q: He controlled everything there was about the person; is that right?

A: As much as he could.

Q: Well, did you ever see anybody in the family who didn't submit himself completely and totally to Manson?

A: Yes.

Q: Who was that?

A: Oh, everyone in the family, just about, or everyone at one point or another would do something, they would stand up and say no sometimes, or even if they didn't stand up and say no, they'd leave; or he'd say to do something and they just wouldn't do it.

Q: Did you actually see that happening?

A: Not very much. It happened a few times, and then it just -- with that one person, and then it wouldn't happen anymore.

Q: You mean somebody might resist on one occasion and then not again?

A: On a few occasions someone might resist, but then you generally wouldn't after that.

Q: But there would come a time when there would be total submission to Manson; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: If he remained in the family?

A: Yes.

Q: Were those the only two alternatives, either total submission or leaving?

A: Yes, those were the only two alternatives.

Q: Was there much discussion about dying along the -- in the Manson philosophy?

A: Yes.

Q: Was it understood that everybody in the family should be willing to die for Manson or for one another?

A: Yes.

Q: Were statements like that made from time to time?

A: Yes.

Q: By whom?

A: By Charlie.

Q: What would he say in those regards?

A: Well, he said that everyone had to die in one way or another, either phsically or you had to do it in your mind.

"To die is to submit, totally." He said that death was total submission.

Death was something that Charlie talked about a lot; that was his whole trip, as far as I knew.

Q: Did Manson distinguish between physical death and ego death?

A: Yes, yes.

Q: How would he do that?

A: Well, a lot of times a person would have an ego death and they wouldn't physically die; but a lot of times there was no differentiation to -- say, in Brooks Poston's case, Charlie just told him, he said, "Die," and Brooks figured he meant die; and so Brooks laid down on the couch and really tried to die.

Q: To physically die, didn't he?

A: Yeah, he laid there for three days --

Q: Without moving, as far as you know?

A: Yes.

Q: Without getting up; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: No food?

A: Nothing?

Q: No water?

A: Huh-uh.

Q: And whatever bodily functions occurred, just occurred, didn't they, during that three-day period?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you ever do anything like that at Mr. Manson's command?

A: Well, I did a similar thing one time. We were at the Fountain of the Worlds and we were at a meeting of all the big shots of the Fountain of the Worlds and they was all talking about their Guru and how great he was; and Charlie was going to demonstrate how great he was, and so he told me -- he told me, "Would you go" -- no, wait, they told us that their Guru had hung on the cross up there from three days, and Charlie told me if I would go hang up there for a week, and so I got up and walked out the door and started figuring how I was going to get up on that thing. And then he came out and told me not to do it; he proved his point.

Q: But you went toward the cross in all sincerity, didn't you?

A: Yeah.

Q: You were prepared to hang on that cross, to really hang on the cross, weren't you?

A: For a week, yeah.

I couldn't figure out how to do it, though; I needed some help to get up there.

Q: But you never said, "No, that's an impossibility, Charlie, I'm not going to do that"?

A: No, I didn't.

Q: Or, "I won't do that"?

A: No.

Q: Or, "I can't do that"?

A: No, I never said that.

Q: As a matter of fact, wasn't there some incident you witnessed, Mr. Watkins, that involved a coconut?

A: Oh, I didn't witness, I just was told about it at one time.

We was sitting around the bus and he told -- no, I witnessed it, yeah -- he told Sadie to get up and go to Rio de Janeiro and bring him a coconut.

Q: And she got up and started to leave?

A: She got up and headed out the door; and he stopped her, he had already proved his point.

THE COURT: He told her to go where?

THE WITNESS: Rio de Janeiro.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: She didn't know whether they grew them there, but she left?

A: Yeah.

Q: But she left because he told her to leave?

A: Yeah; she was supposed to bring him half a coconut.

THE COURT: So far, you have been telling us how Manson would tell you and everyone else to die. Did Manson ever talk about himself dying?

THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah.

THE COURT: Or hanging on a cross, himself?

THE WITNESS: Oh, yes; apparently he had done it already.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: He told you he had, that he was the Christ who was crucified, didn't he?

A: Well, he was a lot shrewder than that. He never would come out and flat say, "I'm the Christ that was crucified."

He would say it in every other way, but say that; in other words, he would super hint at it. He never really -- the closest he ever came to flat saying, "I'm Jesus Christ," was just flat saying, "I'm Jesus Christ"; but then he would always stipulate and say that "You are Jesus, too."

Q: But didn't you tell the Court last time that Manson said he was the Christ that died on the cross 2,000 years ago?

A: Yeah, that's when one time in an experience he sort of acted the whole thing out, the crucifixion scene type.

Q: But you were asked the question, "Did Manson say that he was the Christ that died on the cross 2,000 years ago?" and you said, "Yes."

Do you remember that question and that answer?

A: Yes, I remember that; it was in that experience -- excuse me for saying that he never did say it, but most of the time he wouldn't say it. Most of the time he would just play the part.

Q: As a matter of fact, after he told you that he was Christ who had been crucified, he demonstrated his crucifixion, didn't he?

A: Yes.

Q: And you believed it was real, didn't you?

A: Yes.

Q: I take it he was stretched out on the ground at that experience, wasn't he?

A: Yes.

Q: And he demonstrated the nailing of the hands?

A: Yes.

Q: And the spear thrust?

A: Yes.

Q: And I take it with appropriate sound effects?

A: Yes.

Q: All of which you believed was actually happening, didn't you?

A: Yes. I believed he was re-experiencing it. It was like there was an element of doubt in my mind, but that is what he used to work at all the time, to rid that element of doubt out of everybody's mind.

You can believe something and still have a few reservations and I still had a few reservations for quite a while.

Q: But actually when you were seeing and hearing and listening to Manson you had no reservation, did you?

A: Yes, all those come later when you start thinking later on.

Q: You started to think when you were lucky enough to meet Mr. Crockett; is that right?

A: No. I would get off on my own and walk in the hills and think sometimes.

Q: What would you do after you did all your thinking?

A: I would generally go get right back into it again.

Q: Right back into Mr. Manson?

A: Yes.

Q: I think you told us that death was a big thing with Manson. He had quite a thing going about death, didn't he?

A: Yes.

Q: And did he ever tell you that he thought you would do people a favor by killing them?

A: Yes.

Q: Can you elaborate and explain that to us?

A: Well, he used to say that death was the ultimate trip; in other words, that that was peace, that was total submission, that was harmony and everything that was good and so that really when you killed someone, you just liberated them. That when someone died or if you killed them, he would say, in order to tell you that, you should have no qualms about being willing to die for someone or being willing to kill someone if he asked you to. Like, say, we should all be willing to do anything for anyone with no limit on it.

Q: When he talked to you about killing people so that he could live, was he talking or distinguishing between a physical death and an ego death?

A: Not at that point. I did have thoughts at that point that you are thinking, thoughts of what does he really mean. Did he really mean kill them or did he mean just kill them so far as their ego goes mentally and this is when I began to see that he was putting something together here.

Q: When did you see this?

A: All along, actually, but I would suppress my own thoughts, in other words, according to what I believed was true, and then there was a certain part of myself that would think and see things go on and see him tell people things like that, tell me things like that, but I would always suppress those thoughts until I got to an environment where I could bring them out and express them and that environment was when I met Paul Crockett and Brooks Poston later on.

Q: But up until the time you met Paul Crockett, you really believed that?

A: Yes. I suppressed anything inside of myself that was contrary to being a good family member.

Q: You really believed that death was necessary so that one could live again?

A: Yes. I was trying to do it myself.

THE COURT: Did anybody try to do Charlie a favor by liberating him?

THE WITNESS: Not that I ever saw.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Do you remember the conditions that used to exist when Manson would talk about helter-skelter? Was it usually on an acid trip?

A: Yes.

Q: And a lot of these occurred at the Gresham Street house?

A: Yes. That is when I got really tense.

Q: Was there an available supply of LSD around when you lived at Gresham Street with the group?

A: Yes.

Q: Was it just passed out by somebody?

A: On Charlie's say-so it was, yes.

Q: Could you have acid, you know, when the whole family wasn't together if you wanted it?

A: That was a no-no. You didn't do that.

Q: Did Manson ever give anybody acid without giving it to the whole family, if you know?

A: Yes.

Q: He would pass it out?

A: It was okay if he did it. I mean if he gave somebody a trip, you know, but if you went and got a trip yourself and took it, that was your ego.

Q: Were these group discussions something that happened fairly frequently?

A: Yes.

Q: And was acid being used fairly frequently during these group discussions?

A: Not always because you can't take acid everyday.

Q: A trip will last about 12 hours?

A: Yes.

Q: You take it normally every other day?

A: No. Sometimes we would only take it once every two weeks and sometimes we got -- at the Gresham Street house we were taking it about once a week.

Q: Did Manson always take acid when everyone else did?

A: I think so. It looked like it.

Q: But you never really saw him take it?

A: Oh, yes, I did. I have seen him eat the tablets.

Q: Have you taken many trips with Manson?

A: Yes.

Q: How many did you take with him?

A: About, it seems like about 30 to 50, something like that, quite a few.

Q: Within the period of time that your lived with the family?

A: Yes.

Q: That includes Spahn, Gresham, and Barker?

A: Yes.

Q: Where would you say you took the greatest number of those trips?

A: At the Gresham Street house.

Q: And that would have been then between January and March or so of '69; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you live with the family -- I am sure you did -- between March of '69 and June of '69 at the Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: Was acid being used there then?

A: It is more like May than June.

Q: Or May.

A: Yes. Was acid being used?

Q: Yes.

A: Yes.

Q: Almost as frequently as at Gresham Street?

A: Yes.

Q: Same sort of a deal when the family would get together and helter-skelter was being discussed?

A: Yes.

Q: What other things went on at the family or at Spahn Ranch other than discussions about helter-skelter? Everybody have an occupation?

A: What do you mean by occupation?

Q: Well, did you have anything to occupy your time?

A: Charlie pretty much kept everybody busy. Everybody kept busy.

Q: How about the girls?

A: The girls all kept busy, too.

Q: Were the girls permitted to just sort of loaf around? Sunbathe?

A: sometimes.

Q: How about horseback riding? Were they permitted to do that?

A: Yes.

Q: Pretty regularly?

A: Yes.

Q: However, they all had things that had to be done first; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Chores that had to be performed?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you ever see Barbara Hoyt and Diane Lake around Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: When everybody was using acid, were they using acid, if you know?

A: Yes.

Q: And they were taking the same sort of trips during helter-skelter discussions?

A: Yes.

Q: Was there a great deal of sexual activity going on at the ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: If you know, were Barbara and Diane participating in that?

A: I don't know so much about Barbara but I know about Diane.

Q: She was?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: You spoke about the role of the women at the ranch as being there to please man and to serve man; is that right?

A: Yes. The woman was for man.

Q: When you wanted the services of a lady or you wanted a young gal, was there any difficulty about it?

A: No.

Q: Was there any order or sequence in which you could do things?

A: Well, generally, you just told him what you wanted, or if you wanted to make love, you would just take them by the hand and go make love.

Q: Take any girl that you wanted; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: Anybody your fancy chose?

A: Yes.

Q: And they didn't have a right to object or resist?

A: No, they didn't.

Q: Did you know any of the girls who wouldn't participate with the men on the ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: And anything they had to do?

A: Yes.

Q: Who?

A: Sandy and Bo and Sherry Cooper. Girls would always go through their thing where they would resist you. A few of them would.

Q: Just those that you have named?

A: Yes.

Q: Did they have something going on between themselves?

A: Well, yes, generally it was for some reason.

Q: I think you told us something about a trip that you took in Devil's Canyon when Tex was sort of leading you up and down the hills. Do you remember that?

A: Yes.

Q: That was in early '69. Was that an acid trip?

A: Yes.

Q: Everybody was on acid?

A: Yes.

Q: I take it you didn't object to climbing the hills aimlessly; is that a good expression?

A: No, I didn't object to it.

Q: You just went along?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you suggest any hills that one ought to climb?

A: Yes.

Q: And you climbed them; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: Did the girls suggest any hills to be climbed?

A: No.

Q: They just followed along, did they?

A: Yes.

Q: Were there any other men other than you and Tex there?

A: Just Clem.

Q: Clem?

A: Yes.

Q: Did he suggest a hill that ought to be climbed?

A: No. I don't remember him doing any of that.

Q: What were you looking for, if you know?

A: We were looking to see what we could see, to see how much there was to see there.

Q: You were not looking for the hole in the back of Spahn Ranch?

A: No. The idea of Devil's Canyon was, we was going to use the canyon -- first of all, the road to the desert was supposed to go through the canyon, the dune buggy road, and we was going to have camps in the canyon where we could high-grade dune buggies.

Q: Highgrade?

A: Highgrade them.

Q: Do something to them?

A: Yes, make them, build them.

Q: Were there many dune buggies at the ranch at this time?

A: Got to be two before I left.

Q: Are you talking about Spahn Ranch now?

A: Yes.

Q: I take it Devil's Canyon is somewhere in the Spahn Ranch area?

A: Yes.

Q: You think there were two dune buggies there?

A: Yes.

Q: Were they fairly new?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you know how they got there?

A: Yes.

Q: How?

A: One girl came with a Volkswagen and we scrounged up $1,300 somewhere and we took the Volkswagen and $1,300 to a shop and asked for two dune buggies and they gave us two dune buggies.

Q: Did the Volkswagen originally belong to somebody who had just joined the family?

A: Yes.

Q: She was then devoting or donating all of her worldly goods to the family; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: And then when the dune buggies, I take it, were purchased and built, or whatever you did when them, they became Mr. Manson's; right?

A: Well, it was understood that they belonged to us as a family but Charlie controlled everything around there.

Q: Including the dune buggies?

A: Yes.

Q: And their use?

A: Yes.

Q: You told us that on some of your LSD experiences there was a kind of a super-waker-upper or something of that nature; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: Didn't it also serve to increase your energy?

A: LSD?

Q: Yes.

A: Yes.

Q: You became very energized as a result of using it?

A: Yes.

Q: Very active?

A: Yes.

Q: However, it didn't impede any normal functions; you could walk under it, couldn't you?

A: Sure.

Q: You could drive a car?

A: Well, depending upon the dose.

Q: All right.

Well, if you took a real large dose you just got swacked out, didn't you?

A: Yeah, you couldn't walk or anything.

Q: How long would that nonwalking sensation last?

A: It would depend upon the dose you took. I took a dose once that put me in that state for two days.

Q: But that's an exceedingly large dose?

A: Exceedingly large, yes.

Q: But for the day by day routine nobody ever took a dose like that, did they?

A: No.

Q: They took a dose so they could continue to function, didn't they?

A: Yes.

Q: You felt very much energized and very much pepped up under the influence of it, didn't you?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you ever take acid and speed together?

A: Not on purpose.

Q: Why not?

A: Because they don't mix.

Q: You have never done that, yourself, I take it?

A: I have, but not on purpose.

Q: What happened to you when you did take it?

A: It happens like sometimes you get LSD that's mixed with speed, and you eat it and think it's LSD but it's really mixed with speed, so you wind up eating both of them; both of the chemicals, and what happens is just, it doesn't -- they don't go well together; many times it will make for a bad experience.

Q: You mean you have a bad trip?

A: Yeah.

Q: But nothing other than that, nothing physically that happens to you?

A: That's what happens, the speed is a physical thing, and so you become -- it affects you physically where the LSD is more affecting you mentally; and so then you become torn between the physical trip that is happening to you and the mental trip that is happening to you and you find yourself going back and forth.

Q: But really they both tend to increase your energy output, don't they?

A: No, they do, but you are trying to put them in one -- both -- and it is a completely different thing.

They do increase your energy, both of them do.

Q: Did you ever see Mr. Manson demonstrating during the course of these helter-skelter discussions the killing of people?

A: No.

Q: Did you ever see Mr. Watson do it?

A: No.

Q: Did you ever see anybody demonstrate the killing of people?

A: Well, I saw one time, Charlie demonstrated how to kill someone, but he wasn't doing it like, now -- like, "Here, I'm going to show you how to kill someone; here, let me demostrate."

He was trying to kill me.

Q: That was some kind of a choking experience; is that right?

A: Yeah.

Q: That was a part of this dying bit that he wanted you to go through?

A: Yeah.

Q: And obviously you survived that because, I think --

A: Obviously.

Q: -- and you survived it without any physical injury, didn't you?

A: Yes.

Q: Was that another time when you were both on acid?

A: Yes.

Q: And he was asking you -- he wanted you to die, didn't he?

A: Yeah -- no, he was -- now, I guess you could say that.

Q: Well, he choked you for a bit and let go of you, didn't he?

A: Yeah.

Q: You didn't fight or resist him at all, did you?

A: That's not true.

Q: Well, did you fight him off?

A: I didn't fight him, but I did resist him; emotionally I resisted him. It was what you call being afraid; and mentally I resisted him.

I wasn't going for the idea of dying, but then there was a point to where I ceased to resist him mentally and emotionally.

Q: Well, how would you make known the fact that you were emotionally and mentally resisting him?

A: Shaking like a leaf.

Q: You mean while he was holding your neck?

A: Yeah.

Q: But you never said, "Let go, Charlie"?

A: No; and then by mentally resisting, I would look at him, like, "What the heck is going on?" Trying to understand what he was doing.

Q: Why didn't you just ask him to let you go?

A: Because I had only known him for about a month and I'd listened to his philosophy a lot and talked with him a lot; and so I kind of figured it was just weird, I kind of figured that there was something to me to learn out of the whole thing.

Q: There might be some reason for it?

A: Yeah, there was a reason for it and there was a bunch of the guys around and I didn't see any sense in fighting.

Q: Wasn't this -- hadn't you by this time already gotten the idea that Charlie was Jesus Christ?

A: No, not by that time. He was just Charlie; I had only known him for a month.

Q: And you don't think that you felt that Jesus Christ could be doing no harm?

A: No, I wasn't thinking that. I was more thinking -- he had once said that if you don't fear death, that you could never die; so in my mind I looked at it as I was being tested, that if I was going to fear death that he would have gone ahead and killed me -- and I still firmly believe that today, because he was sincere in his eyes and he was sincere in the way he was going about doing it.

Q: And you thought that that was actual physical death rather than ego death?

A: I thought he was just going to flat kill me.

Q: But he let you go without your saying any word to him; is that correct?

A: He let me go the very instant I ceased to fear him.

Q: How did you make that know; did you stop shaking?

A: It becomes very apparent at that point, because you relax. If you are not afraid, then you just relax.

Q: So when you relaxed he let you go; is that right?

A: Yeah, when I relaxed he let me go.

Q: When did you, Mr. Watkins, first become aware of belladonna?

A: When I was about 16 years old.

Q: Where?

A: In a Hopi Indian reservation in northeastern Arizona.

Q: Did you ever see belladonna while at the Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: When?

A: In the spring of 1969 I went out and -- I saw it along, because it grows all around there.

Q: What form does it take?

A: It takes a form of a green plant, but it has got heart-shaped leaves and big white lillies --

Q: Some kind of a flower plant?

A: Big prickly balls.

Q: What did you do with it?

A: Well, I used to dig it up, and it has roots that are like yams -- and chop the roots up and make tea of the roots and drink the tea.

Q: You sort of brew it up, then?

A: Yeah.

Q: Was that done at Spahn Ranch, if you know?

A: Yes.

Q: On how many occasions?

A: On one occasion.

Q: Was that when you did it?

A: That's when I did it.

Q: What year was this, or what month?

A: Spring of '69.

Q: And where was it done at the ranch?

A: In the semi-trailer.

Q: Now, is the only way one takes the plant by brewing the roots?

A: By brewing the roots.

Q: Can you chew the root, too?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you ever do that?

A: Yes.

Q: On how many occasions?

A: A dozen occasions.

Q: Was that while you were around the ranch, also?

A: No, I never took it around the ranch. I only did it because they asked me to.

Q: Who asked you to?

A: Charlie asked me to.

Q: Manson?

A: Yes.

Q: Was there some sort of a group gathering when this was done?

A: Yes, people were watching what I was doing.

Q: Were you the one who was actually brewing it up?

A: Yes.

Q: I think you told us you had used it, what, a dozen times before this occasion; is that right?

A: I had used it about 20 times before that occasion.

Q: But 12 times by chewing the roots?

A: Approximately.

Q: And the rest by stewing or by brewing?

A: Drinking the tea or eating the seeds.

Q: What effect did it have on you?

A: Very, very, very strong drug effect.

Q: Like what?

A: Like, first noticeable effects are very, very thick saliva forming in your mouth, and you have a hard time swallowing.

Q: Is that saliva condition something you could call cotton mouth?

A: Yes, you just get a very bad cotton mouth and a very awful odor, then you get nauseous, really nauseated, that lasts for three or four hours, and then depending on the dose, it will lay the body down.

Q: In other words, you would pass out?

A: The trip will continue.

Q: How long does the trip continue?

A: Three days to a week.

Q: In lighter quantities, what happens short of passing out?

A: In the lighter quantities you could still walk around.

Q: Function?

A: Walk around and function.

Q: Did the drug have a tendency to dehydrate you, Mr. Watkins, if you know?

A: Belladonna?

Q: That is what I am talking about? Belladone.

A: Yes.

Q: You get very dehydrated?

A: Yes.

Q: Emaciated?

A: Emaciated?

Q: You know, kind of dried up?

A: Yes. You can say it emaciates you if you want to, I guess. I am not sure what that words means.

Q: Just being very dry?

A: I always carried a canteen whenever I would take that.

Q: To replenish what? The bodily fluids?

A: Yes.

Q: With water?

A: Yes.

Q: How often would you take it when you did take it?

A: One time I took it -- it would vary. I would go on a binge and maybe take it every three or four days, in order to stay constantly on it. Spread it out over two or three weeks. Or I would take one very strong trip and then not take any for a few months, then take another one and not take any for a week. There was no pattern to how it was done.

Q: Is the effect pretty much the same, whether you drink the juice or chew the root?

A: Well, all except for the physical effect. If you chew the root, you get a root in your stomach that you are likely to throw up.

Q: Is the physical reaction to the drug the same?

A: Yes.

THE COURT: Would this be a good time to recess, Mr. Bubrick?

MR. BUBRICK: Yes.

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury we will recess at this time until 1:30. Once more, please heed the usual admonition.

(Recess.)