TRANSCRIPT OF TAPE NO. 33351

A RECORDED INTERVIEW WITH VIRGINIA GRAHAM

ON NOVEMBER 26, 1969, 3:15 P.M.

AT THE CORONA STATE PRISON FOR WOMEN

QUESTIONING BY:

SERGEANT MICHAEL NIELSEN, 7945

ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION

TAPE TRANSCRIBED BY:

JAMES J. RABE,

ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION

SERGEANT NIELSEN: The following recording is made at the Corona Institute for Women, November 26, 1969, at 3:15. I am Sergeant Michael Nielsen, serial 7945. I am going to interview Miss Virginia Graham, an inmate. (Pause in tape, talking in background)...Hi.

MS. GRAHAM: How are you?

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Are you Virginia Graham?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, I am.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay, Virginia. Will it be all right if we shut the door (Unintelligible)...

MS. GRAHAM: I don't know. You better (Voices overlapping -- unintelligible)...

SERGEANT NIELSEN: I better check.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Hate to break the rules and regulations.

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, I know what you mean.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: I'm Sergeant Nielsen.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. Uh huh. I was told you were coming about 45 minutes ago. Miss Downs (Phonetic) told me.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: I got lost on the way.

MS. GRAHAM: Well, it's easy out around here.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And you're --

MS. GRAHAM: Virginia Graham, Kathleen Graham.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Virginia Kathleen Graham?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. Uh huh. Of course I know what you're here about, and (Unintelligible)...this girl I met at SBI when I was there. Her name is Sadie Glutz, or Klutz. I think it's Glutz, anyway, related quite a few facts to me that kind of came as a surprise and it's taken me this long to say anything about it, sergeant, for a lot of reasons. Number one, I didn't know if it was the truth and you would really feel like an idiot, or I would feel like an idiot relating it, something of a serious nature like this, and maybe having someone point their finger at me and saying, "Oh, well, she's a snitch," and all of this, which I never ever told anything on anybody before. But the more I thought about it and the seriousness of the case, I thought, well -- So I finally decided, and I've been trying to get in to see Miss Downs (Phonetic) a week ago and I couldn't get through. So, finally, I grabbed Miss Downs and this morning -- Anyway, this little girl told me --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: When were you at SBI?

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, let's see. I went in October 20, and I've been up here two weeks today.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And how long after you were there at SBI --

MS. GRAHAM: Did I find out? About, well, gee, I just found out about it five days before I left and I arrived here on the 12th.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: So it would be about October 7?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, give or take a day or so.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Were you in the same cell with her?

MS. GRAHAM: Right, yeah, in (Unintelligible)...eight thousand and I was what they call the runner there, you know, I had to take messages up and down and she -- They put her on the job with me, too, and at first I had no idea what she was there for and she's very young and looks real sweet and I thought, oh, you poor little kid, you know. She just looks that way -- to me anyway.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Looks like a baby sitter, in that respect.

MS. GRAHAM: Well, yeah, she looks like a little girl that should be in school and --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Is this the girl here?

MS. GRAHAM: That's the girl.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Sadie Glutz?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. That's the girl.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay.

MS. GRAHAM: And, as I said, in the beginning I felt sorry for her and everybody kind of made fun of her and wouldn't talk to her and, you know --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Why is that?

MS. GRAHAM: Teased her about her name.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Oh, Glutz?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. And she just laughed it off, you know, all this. And I started talking to her one day. We were sitting on two little stools and we just started chatting and I asked her, "What are you here for?" you know, I started like I was going to scold her and she said, "First degree murder." So I just looked at her and I said, "Oh, you are, huh?" And then she told me about she had a case and she had a co-defendant over in the county jail and she dropped it.

And then as time went on, another day passed, and then she started talking a little more about this, about this particular case, some fellow they were supposed to have killed or stabbed and pushed out of the car or something like that.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Uh huh.

MS. GRAHAM: So anyway, then she came up one evening. She started talking to me very serious about it, you know, just as serious as she could, and I was very frank with her. I said to her like this, I said, you know, said, "If you did what you are here for, if you did-- Now I don't care," I said, "you sure talk about it an awful lot. If you want to take a piece of advice from somebody that's a little older than you. I wouldn't talk as much as you do, because you never know." And it must have been the magic word or something or whatever, and she said, "Oh, I know. I haven't talked about it to anybody else." and so then finally she says - I don't know how the conversation - I mean I don't know the words that lead into this, but it was something to the effect, we were talking about crime and, you know, various murders, and all that, and she started saying, "Oh, well, there's so much that they don't know," you know, and I said, "Well, what do you mean?" you know. She said, "Well, you know, there's a case right now," she says, "they are so far off the track they don't even know what's happening." And I didn't register for a minute. I said, "What are you talking about?" And she said, "That one on Benedict Canyon," and I snapped. I said --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Benedict Canyon?

MS. GRAHAM: Benedict Canyon, yes. And she said -- I said, "You don't mean Sharon Tate?" and she said, "Yeah." And with this she got real kind of like excited, you know, and everything came out real fast. I mean you could see the girl was really excited.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: She didn't need much prompting --

MS. GRAHAM: No.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- to tell you the story?

MS. GRAHAM: Not at all, not at all. In fact, just before she said that, she said, "You know, I can look at you and there's something about you. I know I can tell things to you." And I laughed, you (Unintelligible)...and so she told me -- this is the other conversation that she and a fellow named Charles Manson (Phonetic) and two other girls, there was four of them all together --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she name the girls?

MS. GRAHAM: She did not. She just named the fellow, and she said that they were given instructions by him.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Manson?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes. They had some kind of sect or were living in some commune type something or another and he obviously must have been something like the big daddy or (Unintelligible)...you know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Uh huh.

MS. GRAHAM: And he must have had a tremendous influence on all these girls and obviously there was quite a few girls from the way she spoke to me about it. And also her co-defendant had been in their sect too, but he had nothing -- from what I could gather -- to do with this murder on Benedict Canyon, you know.

And, anyway, she said that they had decided they wanted to do a crime that would shock the world, that the world would have to stand up and take notice. And, of course, I know the little girl had been on LSD and speed.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Why, had she told you this?

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. She told me she had taken all kinds of trips on it.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: When she said "they," did she specifically name anybody?

MS. GRAHAM: No. No. She used the words like "they," and "we"

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And that was in the context of talking about Charles Manson?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, and the other two girls.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: All right.

MS. GRAHAM: And she said that they went to this house because it was isolated and they picked these people from random. In other words, they didn't know these people at all, but she knew this house because she told me that Terry Melcher, who is Doris Day's son, had owned it and she knew Terry from a year or so back, and that they went up there and I said, "In other words, you didn't know Jay Sebring or any of those other people?" and she said, "No." And I said, "Well, why?" you know, and she said, "Well, we just picked this house," you know. It was just very matter of fact. "We just picked this house. It was isolated."

SERGEANT NIELSEN: She didn't say that somebody told her about the house?

MS. GRAHAM: No. Well, see Terry -- See --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did --

MS. GRAHAM: She knew Terry and something had happened -- I don't want to get ahead of myself. Later on in my conversation, she had told me that Terry had known quite a few of these girls.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, why don't you just tell (Voices overlapping unintelligible)...

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. So she said they went up there and she said that they cut the wires -- I was questioning her, by the way. Once she started relating this to me, she would say something, and I would say, "Well, how come you did," so forth and so on, and so she said that they went up; they cut the wires. She said the service wires or something. I said, "Well, wouldn't that have taken off all the electricity?" And she said something, about, "No, just for the phone," or something I don't know. She was talking rather quickly. And then she said that they killed the boy first, Parent or Parent. She said that they shot him four times. Now again she used the word "they," and I said, "Well, how come?" And she said, well he saw them. And then she said they parked the car down a ways and walked up to the house, and that, I guess, he must -- from the way she described it, he must have been getting ready to come out or one thing or another. They felt that he saw them. So I think she told me -- I'm not positive. I think she said that this Charles shot him. And so she said with that they continued on into the house. Now she said that when they got into the house --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she say how they got in?

MS. GRAHAM: In? No. No. She didn't?

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay. Go ahead.

MS. GRAHAM: She said that they went on into the house and she said that the girl, Ann Folger, was sitting in the living room reading, and she said when they came in she didn't look up. She didn't hear them or something and she said -- "We went on into the bedroom and the other two stayed in the living room so they must have split up, it seems, from the way she told me, that two people stayed in the living room and two went to the bedroom. She said that Jay was sitting on the edge of the bed talking to Sharon. And I said, "Oh, really?" And she said, "Yeah." I said, "What did she have on?" She said, "She had on a bikini bra and panties," and I said, "You're kidding. And she was pregnant?" you know. And she said, "Yeah." And she says, "And they looked up," you know, "and they were surprised." Now she didn't -- How they got them into the living room, or got them into the bedroom or anything, she just went on and she said that Sharon was the last to die and that they had strung Jay and Sharon up with the noose around their neck, but she told me they did not put a hood over his head. And I said, "Well, why did you put a thing around her neck," and she said that was so that they couldn't struggle and they couldn't move or they would choke. And so then, anyway, she said that this Voicheck (Phonetic) or Wojiciech, somehow or another, he got away. She said he ran out front and, she said -- He must have been cut up quite a bit, because she said, "He was bleeding, and "she said, "he ran out to the front part," and, she said, "and would you believe that he stood there and he was hollering for help? And ," she said, "nobody came?" you know, I mean very matter of fact and very, rather kind of blunt, you know. And so she says, "Then we finished him off," but she didn't relate to me whether the girl fran out, that Folger girl. She just comment (indistinguishable) because he was hollering for help I guess and nobody had responded. And then all she said was that they killed Sharon last and she said she held Sharon's arms back behind her or something and that Sharon looked at her and said, "Please don't kill me. Please don't kill me. I don't want to die." She said she was crying and she said, "Please, I'm going to have a baby." And Sadie said to her, "Look, bitch, I don't care if you're going to have a baby, you better be ready. You're going to die and that's all there is to it." And she said, "Then we killed her a few minutes later." And she said that, "We were going to mutilate them, but they didn't have a chance to." And then she told me she lost her knife while she was there and she said they looked for it, but they couldn't find it and she thought the dog had gotten it. I said, "The dog?" and she said, well, she said, "You know how dogs are sometimes," and I said, "Well, yeah, you never know." And then she said that she had put her hand print on a desk and she said, "It dawned on me afterwards," she said, "but, you know," she said, "the spirit was with me so much that they probably couldn't even get a hand print from it," you know. I thought, well, it was the methadone talking you know, if you put your hand down, there's going to be a hand print there, she said, "because they would have had me by now," she said, "because my print was there." And I asked her why, you know. I said, "Hey, why did you kill them?" And she said that they wanted to release them from this earth you know, so they could go on and that they loved them so much that they had to kill them and that this man, this Charlie Manson, obviously had schooled all these girls and boys, whatever, that there is a hole in the middle of Death Valley and that there are people living down in underground and that they are going to start a new society and that they are the chosen few, they are elected, this group of people, to pick people at random and execute them.

And I mean, really, I was just sitting there and I was listening to all of this and it sounded so fantastic that the more she talked, I mean, you know, a tiny thing like that --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Go on with your other conversation with her regarding this.

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, jeepers --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Or of herself --

MS. GRAHAM: Well, just that then she said about those other two people that were killed shortly thereafter, you know, the couple. And she said, "You know, the other two?" I said, "Yeah," I said, "was that you?" And she just smiled. Now that she didn't commit herself on. She said, "But that's part of the plan," and she said, "and there's more - there's been more before." And then all of a sudden like she ran out you know, and she told me a lot more, but I really can't remember it all. I tried, you know, to remember, but I'm sure that I've forgotten a lot because she talked to me for a full 35 minutes, you know, going on like that.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: But she was coherent?

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, completely. As coherent as I am speaking to you. Excited, but it was like a child that runs to its mother, "Oh, mommy," and I have to tell you something real fast type of thing.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: She appeared perfectly sane?

MS. GRAHAM: Completely. Completely. In fact, she told me that she's very good at playing crazy. She said, "I know how to do that," and I said, "Well," I said, "you better be careful with something like this. If there are other people involved," I said, "somebody's going to spill the beans," I said, "the other girl." She said, "No way," she said, "they wouldn't dare." She said, "They are so afraid," she said, "they know better," she said, "because that there's a lot of us." She called this group of people something like they named it the helter-skelter.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: The helter-skelter?

MS. GRAHAM: The helter-skelter.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: That was her group?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes. Yes, this is the group of people that want to go and assassinate or execute other people, the helter-skelter. And, oh yeah, one other thing, she said that after they did this and they left the house, she said they all had changed, had changes of clothes in the car, and they went to the car and they were driving away and she said something about they stopped somewhere in Beverly Hills, I guess it must have been somewhere along Benedict Canyon -- now, this is what I am assuming -- and there must have been a fountain or water outside. She said they went up there and washed their hands up, and she said then a man came outside and wanted to know what they were going there and he started to, you know, hollar at them, I guess, and she said, "And guess who he was?" I said, "I don't know." She said, "It was the Sheriff of Beverly Hills." I said, "There, the Sheriff?" "Well," she said, "the Sheriff or the Mayor, or something." and she said he started to reach into the car, and she said that this Charlie turned on the key and she said, "Boy we made it." She said, "We laughed all the way." She said, "if he had only know."

SERGEANT NIELSEN: How did she get the idea it was the Sheriff or Mayor?

MS. GRAHAM: I have no -- I haven't the slightest idea.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she say what they had -- You say they stopped to change clothes?

MS. GRAHAM: She said, yeah, that they changed clothes in the car. She said that they had changes of clothes in the car; they they knew they would be a mess, but she didn't tell us what she did with the clothing or if there was more than one knife or whatever. She just told us that she lost her knife in the house and that they had looked for it.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she describe the knife to you at all?

MS. GRAHAM: No, no, huh uh.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: What about the gun, did she say what happened to the gun?

MS. GRAHAM: No, huh uh. Nothing. So I started thinking, well let me see if it is true, you know, I mean people have wild imaginations, so I thought, well, what questions can I ask her that would verify if she was telling the truth or not, so I started thinking. I waited a couple of days and we were talking and I said, "Hey, you know -- By the way, I had been to that house one time myself, many years ago when I was married. It was for lease, and my husband and I had looked at it.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: The one right above Sharon Tate's?

MS. GRAHAM: No. Sharon Tate's house.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Up on the hill?

MS. GRAHAM: Well, yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, I'll be doggone. So you know the house then?

MS. GRAHAM: I knew it vaguely. I don't remember it too well. I just remember it's like a big red barn.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Uh huh.

MS. GRAHAM: You know, that's all.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Do you remember when this was?

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, yeah. Let me see, about seven or eight years ago.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Small world.

MS. GRAHAM: Well, I lived in that area for years. I lived on Clearview, and I lived on Cherokee which is just up from it you know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, we're getting off the track here with my questioning.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. So I said to her, "Oh, listen," you know, and I told her, "Say, come to think of it," I said, "you know, I knew that house looked familiar," I said, "I saw pictures of it in the papers," and I said, "you know when I was married before," I said, "my husband and I were looking for a house and," I said, "I was up there." I said, "Is it still done in gold and white?" I just took a shot in the dark, gold and white. And she said, "Uh huh." So, I don't know white and gold or pink and blue, but she answered, "Uh huh" to it.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: What did you mean by --

MS. GRAHAM: The decor.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: The inside?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. I meant the rugs or the walls or the furniture, because I have a girl friend, poor kid, who is still at SBI, and she's the only person that I told this, because after Sadie told me -- Now I've known this girl for 12 years, and I said, "Hey, Ronnie, come here." So she came in and I laid it down to her. I said, "Hey, what do you do?" I said, "If this is true, my God, this is terrible. I wish she hadn't told me." And she said, "Hey, maybe it's her imagination." So the two of us together, you know, she said, "Well ask her certain questions that only a person who would know that had been in it." So that's how I came up with trying to find out what color. She said, "Try and ask her what color the bedroom was, or what the people had on or anything." So when I left there I said to Ronnie, because Ronnie slept next to her, I said, "Look, if you want to, go ahead and try to find out more," because she talked to her a lot. I said, "If you find out more, tell your parole agent." She said, "No, I won't tell my parole agent," she said, "but a lot of homicide men come in here and -- She worked down in receiving, you know, where the homicide men come in and she said, "I'll just go right to them. I'm not going to say anything to my agent." And I said, "Well, then if you decide to do this, you can tell them who I am and I can run down what I know." Well, I mean, I haven't heard anything, so maybe she didn't find out anything more either.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: What was her name?

MS. GRAHAM: Ronnie. I think it's Ronnie Howard.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Ronnie Howard?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. Uh huh. And we've known each other for many years, you know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did Ronnie Howard actually talk to Sadie?

MS. GRAHAM: No. Well, she might have since I've been gone.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: You left there on the 19th?

MS. GRAHAM: No. I left there on the 12th. I came here on the 12th.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: October 12th?

MS. GRAHAM: Yea. Uh huh. I came here. Well, really, that's about it in a nut shell. Like I said, I know there's more, by golly, I just can't think of it.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, if it's all right with you, supposing I put down a few notes and --

MS. GRAHAM: Yes.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- and ask you questions.

MS. GRAHAM: Okay.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And I think that as we begin to talk about it more --

MS. GRAHAM: I might --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- remember more.

MS. GRAHAM: Right. Okay.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Now --

MS. GRAHAM: You know, Sergeant Nielsen, I kept thinking to myself, I said, "Good grief," you know, "of all the hundreds of girls that are in that jail there," you know, "she happened to talk to me." And I really felt terrible behind that case. I knew Jay vaguely and one of my best girl friends was a close friend of Jay's, and all this happened and I was watching television and I thought, oh, my, golly, how awful. And then to sit, you know, end up like at SBI and have some girl sit and tell you shes the one that did it, I just thought, oh, wow. Why couldn't she tell the girl down the street (Voices overlapping -- Unintelligible)... "Yeah," I said, "I'm sorry she told me."

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Of course. Naturally I'm interested, you said you knew Jay Sebring vaguely and your girl friend knew him well.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah, well sure.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: If you could tell me about that.

MS. GRAHAM: Well, I lived in Beverly Hills on and off for years and I used to go to (Unintelligible)...who is a hairdresser there. And I used to go to The Luau a lot and Jay used to go to The Luau and one evening I met him with a group of people, I mean there was no close relationship.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: This was some time ago?

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, years ago, yeah. I mean -- I think he had just opened his shop there on Fairfax.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: About 19--

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, God, I guess it's got to have been about eight years ago, nine years ago, you know, and then I had this girl friend, her name was Eileen Green. She was a manicurist for Jay and she lived at the Fountain View apartments on LaCienega and she was very friendly with Jay, and so we talked later on about it and she said, "Oh, how terrible it was," and she was telling me that she had heard stories, you know, this and that or the other. So, I mean, all this comes back and then I run into the one that tells me, "Hey, guess what, I'm the one that did it," you know; I said, She's got to be kidding." but the reason I thought there might be some truth in it is when I found out she was in for first degree murder, then she told me that this, that she actually did do this murder that she was there for and that she stabbed this man herself.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Which man, Jay or Frykowski?

MS. GRAHAM: No, no, this is the murder case they have her in jail for now.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Oh. What did she tell you about that?

MS. GRAHAM: She didn't go into a lot of detail. She was just saying that there was another girl involved and herself and this boy, I don't know his name. She said it, but I forget what his name is. He is in the county jail anyway.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Is he going on trial for this?

MS. GRAHAM: They both are, and how it started, the police officers had come there to see her about making some kind of a deal is what she said and she said no, she wouldn't go for it, that they can't give me the gas chamber (Unintelligible), that type of thing. And so then she started talking to me a little bit about it and I said, "Well, did you do it?" And so she said -- She looked at me and smiled and said, "Sure." You know, like that, and then she said that she stabbed him four or five times. And then again she said that the police had it down that -- How did she tell me, that the police had it down opposite -- Anyway, that the police had it wrong. They had it the wrong way now. I guess maybe they had him stabbing the man, but she said she's the one that did it, so I don't know. And this boy took his car, this man's car or something. The man was homosexual. She told me that this fellow was gay.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Was he rich?

MS. GRAHAM: She said something about this boy was getting money from him or tried to get money from him. It wasn't important to her. I mean she would talk about here and there, but I mean it was just like it was a perfectly natural thing to do every day of the week, yeah, well, you know, that type of thing.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: She related it during pretty much of a conversational talk?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah, just like -- Why, just like nothing.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she talk about ever going back to the place of the first man she stabbed?

MS. GRAHAM: No, huh uh. No. She said something about the girl that was with them, the other girl that was them, had been in SBI. The police were looking for her, but she was out on bail on a forgery case and was on the way to Wisconsin to get her child.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And that was the girl that was with her on the --

MS. GRAHAM: On the first murder, yeah, yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she mention her name?

MS. GRAHAM: No, she didn't, but she said that they had a witness, another girl that overheard her discussing this murder.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: With whom?

MS. GRAHAM: I don't know. She just said, "The police have a witness," and that's all. And she said that her life's not worth anything, and she said that this girl is pregnant, pregnant by this fellow that she was going to testify against.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: You mean the girl who is pregnant by this fellow who is on trial overheard Sadie --

MS. GRAHAM: Say that she --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- talk about the murders?

MS. GRAHAM: Right, right. And she not only said this to me, but from what I could see, I saw her blabbing to quite a few people about that.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Mostly people that were in the same section?

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, yes. All in the same group.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: I'm not familiar with that section. Is that an individual block of --

MS. GRAHAM: It's a dormitory.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: How many people are in it?

MS. GRAHAM: I guess about 50 beds, and they are lined up like this, you know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Where was your bed in relation to hers?

MS. GRAHAM: I was in bed number three which was up here and Sadie was done over on this end next to my girl friend Ronnie.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Next to Ronnie?

MS. GRAHAM: Next to Ronnie, yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And do you recall who you saw Sadie discussing this with? Any of the people over there?

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, golly, gee -- I just (Unintelligible)...And, boy, that little girl sure talks a lot, but I don't remember -- I can't remember who it was. She was with a little blond girl a lot, but I don't know if she told her and Tracy -- There was another girl there, Tracy, and she told Ronnie. She told Ronnie that she killed him, this first person. Yeah, she told Ronnie and Tracy and the one who was next to Ronnie and if I'm not mistaking I think Tracy said she heard her say it too. In fact I think it was Tracy.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Who?

MS. GRAHAM: Tracy is her name, Tracy Arrenwald (Phonetic)...

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Tracy Arrenwald?

MS. GRAHAM: Arrenwald.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Ronnie thought that Tracy overheard Sadie --

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. In fact I think, like Ronnie was sitting here and Tracy was sitting just back a ways and Sadie was sitting here, so I'm almost sure that it was Tracy that said, "wow, that little girl is too much."

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Where is Tracy now?

MS. GRAHAM: Well, she might be out, or she might be in now.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Do you recall what she was in for?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. She had rented a car and forgot to take it back in time and she was arrested, I guess, for grand theft auto, but she said she knew they were going to clear her. And she's a school teacher.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Where was she from?

MS. GRAHAM: The Valley.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: San Fernando Valley?

MS. GRAHAM: Somewhere around there, yeah. Originally New York, (indistinguishable). And she was school teacher.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Anything else that you recall?

MS. GRAHAM: Not off hand.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Before I go over it again --

MS. GRAHAM: No. I don't think so. I think I've kind of covered it.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay. Experience tells me that when I go to the grocery store I walk up and down and look at each shelf because I never remember what I'm supposed to get, even with a list.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: So we'll go to the grocery store.

MS. GRAHAM: Okay, you go ahead. Let's see how good a shopper we are.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: How do you spell your last name?

MS. GRAHAM: G-r-a-h-a-m.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And your first name?

MS. GRAHAM: Virginia.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Virginia?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Do you have a nickname?

MS. GRAHAM: No. My middle name is Kathleen. Sometimes I get called Kathy.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: With a K?

MS. GRAHAM: Uh huh, K-a-t-h-l-e-e-n.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay. Now just -- Oh, well, I get all -- I was (indistinguishable) the things I normally ask, you know, what is your birth date?

MS. GRAHAM: That's all right.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Women just don't --

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, well, December 10, 1932.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Sometimes you find out that -- Well, my mother, for instance, I think is now my slightly older sister.

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. Well, I have a son that will be 20 myself, you know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay, now, you first went to Sybil Brand --

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, October 20.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: October 20 of this year?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay. And you went to Ward --

MS. GRAHAM: First of all I was in the cell block, then I was in the infirmary for four days, and then I was downstairs in (Unintelligible)...for a week and then they shot me to eight thousand.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Do you have any idea of when that might be?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. I was four days upstairs, that would bring it up to the 24th, then the week downstairs. I'm going to guess and say about the 3rd or 4th or thereabouts.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: That was about --

MS. GRAHAM: About the 4th.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: November 4?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: I'll say approximately.

MS. GRAHAM: Yes. I went there on a Saturday, that's all I know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: You went to -- What was it?

MS. GRAHAM: Eight thousand -- Eight thousand they call it.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay.

MS. GRAHAM: Which is a dormitory.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: When did you first meet Sadie?

MS. GRAHAM: Gee, I don't know. All of sudden, she was just there.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: You say you and she were on the same detail together?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes. To my knowledge Saide didn't come in for a little while. I mean I was there, because I was around with two other girls and I think Sadie came in about four days later --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: They call those runners?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Like girls in school?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay, now, we'll say four days which will put it approximately November 8.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah, yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: This is just to keep it straight in my (Unintelligible)...

MS. GRAHAM: No. It has to be about there, sergeant, because I left on the 12th and if I'm not mistaking she started really blabbing to me the previous Thursday, so --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Left on the 12th --

MS. GRAHAM: The 12th was a Wednesday.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: You're right, and the previous Thursday was about November 6.

MS. GRAHAM: Right, I guess.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: All right. So between November 6th and 12th, Sadie started telling you these rather --

MS. GRAHAM: Gruesome tales.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- gruesome tales.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, now we can go back over it again. When was the first time you began to think of Sadie as other than perhaps being a little girl?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah, when we were sitting on the bench on those stools together by what they call control and I asked her what she was there for and she told me first degree murder, and I looked at her and I said, "You're kidding," and she said, "No." And then she said -- At first, she didn't come out with she had done it, you know, the very first time, conversation, as I recall. She just told me that she had a co-defendant and that they were trying to get a first degree murder conviction.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Uh huh.

MS. GRAHAM: And there wasn't too much conversation on it at that moment.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay. Then -- Go on.

MS. GRAHAM: Then we just talked more, but only on this, and then I think the police showed up. I think this is what happened, or something, and she was a little upset or something about it and she came back and said she was mad about her co-defendant, or, gee, I don't remember that exactly because I was still kind of taking it with a grain of salt, you know, I just looked at her and couldn't believe this poor little thing, you know, and so then she just talked to me about that and that's all.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay. Now when did she first tell you -- Did she first start talking about this man, this Manson, before she told you about any of the murders?

MS. GRAHAM: No. No. In fact I didn't find out his name. She just kept calling him Charlie. One evening she came up to my bed area and she flopped down on the bed and we started, you know, just talking, and I told her, you know, that she ought to behave herself, and you know (Unintelligible)...and that's when she said, you know, "I can talk to you." She said, "There's something about you. I can look at you and I can tell that I can talk to you. I can look in your eyes," she said, "because I can see people." And the conversation started in a sense about LSD and Methadrine and I was talking her that Methadrine was very bad because it destroys brain cells, but as far as -- This is my belief. As far as LSD is concerned, there's no positive proof at the moment of it, you know, being detrimental, no doctors proof. And that's when she said, "Yes," she had taken all kinds of trips and it had made her really see the light and we started talking about psychic phenomena and karma and, you know, zen buddhism and all that and this type of conversation came (Unintelligible)... She said, "I can tell that you are very aware and do you know that right now there are people living underneath or in the center of the earth?" And I said, "No, huh uh," and she said, "Well, this man-- I don't know if she used the word man. She referred to him as Charlie, but she spoke about him like he was a god, really. And she told me that he had been in San Quentin. He had done time in San Quentin and that he couldn't be broken, that he was the strongest man that she had ever seen and that she followed his orders, whatever he told her to do and did without questions because she knew that he was really big and that all these kids did that. He was like the leader of the group and that they had been living out in the desert and that they had stolen some jeeps or something and that they had filed some more charges on her for stealing, you know, US Government property and I mean just all kinds of things.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay. Now when did it start to get real hairy?

MS. GRAHAM: Well, this is the sort of thing this started leading into more and she started talking about his murder again, this first murder, and I don't know what I said, but I must have said something that triggered her reaction concerning the Sharon Tate thing, murders. I've tried, but I can't think, but all of a sudden, out of a clear blue sky, she said, well, you know, she said, "There is a case right now that they'll never find out about," she said, "they are on the wrong track." She said, "They are so far off, it's unbelievable." And I said, "What do you mean?" something to that effect anyway, and she said, "The one up at Benedict Canyon." And then I snapped. I said, "You mean Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring and them?" And she said, "Yeah." She said, "You're looking at the one who did it." I said, "You're kidding." She said, "Huh uh," and with this she just proceeded. I would interrupt her and say "why" or "how" or, "Why did you go up there" and "Why did you pick this place," and "Did you know the people?" You know, she told me that they had not known them at all and that's when she brought the name of Terry Melcher in and -- Oh, wait. She said something about, I believe about two years ago she said that she lived for a short time with a fellow by the name of Dennis Wilson who is one of the Beach boys, you know, the group on television, and I'm not sure if she said she met Terry through him or somehow I get it in my head a connection between, you know, the Beach boys group and Terry, somehow or another.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: About two years ago?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, see, that helped --

MS. GRAHAM: (Voices overlapping -- Unintelligible)...yeah. Okay. And then she said too that Terry had a Rolls Royce and that she lived, I think she said in the Palisades with this Dennis Wilson and I believe there were a lot of people living in the house too, you know, and that she said soemthing about Terry was a real nice guy, she said, but he didn't want to -- He wasn't real because he wanted to be one of the group but he wouldn't give up his wealth, and she seemed angry at him about the fact that he wouldn't be swayed all the way, you know. And so what I'm saying is when she is telling me all this, talking about it --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she say that Manson knew anybody, any of there people?

MS. GRAHAM: No, huh uh.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: All right. Okay. Now there were a lot of people that seemed angry at Terry?

MS. GRAHAM: She seemed angry, hostile at him. I detected it in her voice. In other words, he was like a phoney and then she said something about money and he was supporting them. She really talked rather speedily and by the time I got to ask questions she'd be off on something else.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay. Now we have her living --

MS. GRAHAM: In the Palisades.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: In the Palisades --

MS. GRAHAM: With Dennis Wilson.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- with Dennis Wilson, huh?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. Now how she got to Palisades and to the desert, I have no idea, but she got to the desert and this Charlie. Oh, I take it back. Yes, I do know how she met him. She told me she met him in San Francisco.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Met --

MS. GRAHAM: She met this Charlie Manson in San Francisco.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Sadie did?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, at a party and she said she was there and he was playing the guitar and it was at the Haight Ashbury district. And I think she said he had just gotten out of San Quentin and she said that she took one look at him and he took one look at her and she knew that was it and she was with him; that he had a black bus and that she went with him and he took a few other girls with him and she said they traveled all around. It's funny how your mind (Unintelligible)... Oh, jeepers, yes.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: All right. Now we skipped a little bit of it there.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: She met Charlie --

MS. GRAHAM: In San Francisco, right, at about the time he got out of San Quentin. He was playing the guitar and -- At a party.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: One look and she was --

MS. GRAHAM: That was it. Yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: All right. Now we've got her down at Palisade's again. Did she ever mention any other people, any of Terry's friends, or Dennis' friends?

MS. GRAHAM: No, No. she just mentioned Dennis Wilson and I remember the name Dennis because that's my son's name, my youngest son and I remember Wilson because that was my uncle's name. So I put it --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: So now as we go along, she's -- She said that the one in Benedict Canyon and, "You're looking at the one who did it," and she said she didn't know the people at all.

MS. GRAHAM: Right.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Now let's go back to that point.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. She said that they were -- In other words, it was as though they bestowed an honor on them to kill them I mean this type of thing; that they were chosen, they were the chosen and when she said chosen, that's when I said, "And you didn't know them?" She said, "No." She was specific that they did not know these people and she was also specific about they had not known if there would be one person there or how many people would be there, but they were prepared to do everybody in that was there.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she say how they got up there?

MS. GRAHAM: Well, they had a car and I don't remember if she said they parked the car down or if they drove the car up, but she said something about they walked a ways. So they must have parked the car down a ways and then they walked on up and she said they cut the wires.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Weren't they afraid of the police?

MS. GRAHAM: No, she told me because I asker her that. She said the reason they did that was the people from the inside couldn't make a phone call.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: I mean just walking around outside. Beverly Hills got a lot of police walking around.

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, they sure do, but that's secluded, that part up there is pretty much off the beaten path.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Of course that's in Los Angeles actually --

MS. GRAHAM: I know it is. Yeah, that's right.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- not Beverly Hills.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah, because I lived up from there.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Now she talked about "they." When did she indicate they as being more than just they?

MS. GRAHAM: I asked her -- I said, yeah, you know -- Oh, I know how it came back. I said to her, "Well, it just wasn't you," or something like that. And she said -- Oh, and I said, you know, I read it in the paper, and I knew it had to be more than one. I said, "What was it, you and the fellow, or what?" and she said that -- "Oh, No. It was two other girls and this man."

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay. Two other girls and this man?

MS. GRAHAM: Uh huh.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay. We got them up --

MS. GRAHAM: Up there.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she mention whether or not they drove by?

MS. GRAHAM: No.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Why they picked this particular house?

MS. GRAHAM: No. Except she said it was isolated and them she again mentioned something about Terry Melcher had owned this home. So I --me thinking half-way fast, I thought well, from the way like she was angry at Terry, I thought maybe in the back of her mind they were going up there thinking that Terry might be there or something. I don't know, you know. And then I said to her, "Well, he doesn't own it now because I saw the fellow on television that owned it and he had to come back from Europe," you know. And she said, "Oh," but that was all.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay. The house was isolated, Terry Melcher had owned it, the home. Did she describe what they did and how they got into the grounds?

MS. GRAHAM: No, huh uh.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: What were the grounds like when you were up there?

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, God. I don't know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did you dive up in front of the house?

MS. GRAHAM: No. I seem to remember it was kind of winding and it had a gate up there and my husband and I pulled in and I think we parked off to the side or something. And I also don't remember a swimming pool at that time.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: How did you get in the gate?

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, it wasn't locked.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did you just open the gate?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: How did she say -- Now they went up to the house --

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- they got to the gate --

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- and --

MS. GRAHAM: She didn't tell me.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: How about cutting the wires?

MS. GRAHAM: She said that-- She said that they cut the wires. She said that they cut the wires because the people on the inside, they didn't want them to be able to call out. She said something about cutting the utility wires. I remember making the remark,"utility wires, wouldn't that have cut off the electricity?" She said, "No. He knew which wires to cut."

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Indicating the men?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah, uh huh.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And since there was only one man, it couldn't be anyone but Charlie.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah, precious Charlie.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay. Now did she say anything about having problems getting past the gate?

MS. GRAHAM: No, not at all. She didn't relate any type of problem at all. In fact it was like they just walked on up and just walked on in. The only thing she commented about was this young boy, they thought that he had seen them come up and so they had to kill him. And again she used the word, "And he had to shoot him." And said, "He was shot four times." I remember the number four.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Where was the boy? I presume that you read the newspaper accounts of the Sharon Tate --

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Everybody has.

MS. GRAHAM: (Unintelligible)...I was fixed to the television watching it too.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Yeah.

MS. GRAHAM: You know, yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: So you are quite clear as to what she said as opposed to your memory?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes. Oh, yeah. I'm trying to completely block that.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Good. So now we have her relating they walked in and I presume they are approaching the house.

MS. GRAHAM: Yes.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And appears this young man.

MS. GRAHAM: Yes. Somewhere along the way they spotted him and knew that he spotted them and so he went over and shot him four times.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she say whether or not Parent said anything to them?

MS. GRAHAM: No. She didn't indicate there was any conversation at all.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: All right. Now what about noise?

MS. GRAHAM: Well --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she mention whether or not they were afraid that somebody in the house might hear the shots?

MS. GRAHAM: No, not at all.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Now they, the group, goes to the house --

MS. GRAHAM: Right. And they want on in. Now I didn't think to say how did you get in or anything, she just said that they went in and she said as she wept through the door she said in the living -- I believe she said in the living room in the chair she said the one girl was reading a book.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: That she observed as they walked in?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes. They walked in; the one girl was reading a book, which was (Unintelligible)...and she didn't notice them and she commented about that.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she ever described the clothes that this girl had on?

MS. GRAHAM: No. Huh uh.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Do you know what she was wearing?

MS. GRAHAM: No-- I think I read a nightgown or something, a nighty.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: All right. Now the action is starting to get --

MS. GRAHAM: Now she said that -- Let me think -- (Unintelligible)...one girl was sitting here reading a book and she said, "And we went on to the bedroom." Now "We went on to the bedroom and," she said, "Jay was sitting on the edge of the bed talking to Sharon and," she said, "Sharon was sitting up in bed." I did ask her what Sharon had on. She said it was a bikini bra and panties, because I made the remark, "Gee, and she was nine months pregnant?" you know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Sharon was sitting up --

MS. GRAHAM: In bed.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- in bed. Sharon had on --

MS. GRAHAM: Bra and panties, bikini type

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay.

MS. GRAHAM: And she said that he looked up, they were surprised. Now this I recall, but she didn't go into any dialogue that was spoken. I'm trying to think, did she tell me that whoever she was with had a gun and told them to get up and move? I'm not sure. I don't want to say it because I'm not sure. Anyway, it seems as though, but I'm not sure of that. But somehow they get them somewhere, that they put the rope around their neck, around both of their necks, and I asked her why they did that. She said that was so they couldn't move; that they would choke if they did. And I said, "Hey, why did put a hood over his head? What did that mean?" And she said, "We didn't put any hood over his head." I said, "You're kidding," I said, "that's what the papers said." And she said, "Huh uh." She got quite insistent on that, you know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she mention what the Folger girl or Frykowski were doing?

MS. GRAHAM: She just mentioned that the Folger girl had been sitting there reading and then as I recall the next conversation about either one of them was when she said that Frykowski ran out the door and she said he was bleeding. So I guess whoever had been there must have stabbed him or whatever and he ran out the door and he got to the lawn and was standing there hollering, "Help. Help." And this is when she kind of laughed and she said, "(Unintelligible)...and nobody even heard him." But I don't recall whether she said that the girl ran out with him or not.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: He just stood there?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah, ran out there and stands there hollering, "Help. Help." and no one responded, and that if that is true surprised me because those canyons up there, noise carries.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she say --

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, yeah. He was shot, I think she said that he was shot -- Oh, I don't remember. I don't.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she ever mention that the gun had changed hands at any time?

MS. GRAHAM: No.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: We have the gun in Charlie's hand when he (Unintelligible)...

MS. GRAHAM: No. She didn't mention that the gun changed hands. I just know that she said that she had her knife.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: When did she first mention that?

MS. GRAHAM: When -- Well, when she told me she said, "I lost my knife up there." I said, "You knife?" She said, "Yeah. We looked all over for it and I couldn't find my knife."

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she describe the knife at all?

MS. GRAHAM: No. (Voices overlapping -- unintelligible)... No, not at all. And then she said, you know, "I really think the dog go it." I said, "The dog?" She said something about she thought the dog was a Dalmatian or something like that. And again I saw the TV and I recall them saying it was a little Yorkie, so I didn't dispute her word, but this is what made me to kind of wonder if this was a figment of her imagination or also maybe they just didn't put everything out, you know. Hunting dog is what she said.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Hunting dog or a Dalmatian.

MS. GRAHAM: I know, I said, "A Dalmatian?" and she said, "Yes, I think so, a hunting dog, yeah."

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay. Go on.

MS. GRAHAM: Oh --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: I'm thinking back --

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah, I'm trying too.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, so far we have Sharon's death comes a little bit later, but we have Parent dead in the car.

MS. GRAHAM: Right.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: We have Frykowski --

MS. GRAHAM: He's dead.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: He's dead on the lawn.

MS. GRAHAM: right. She didn't tell me about this and Folger. I mean she didn't tell me she's dead or shot or whatever.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And no mention of Sebring?

MS. GRAHAM: No.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Except with the hood?

MS. GRAHAM: Right. In fact, that he didn't have that o. And then I think she said they were going to mutilate the bodies but they were going to poke their eyes out and cut their fingers off, but that they didn't have a chance to do all that. And I said, "My, God, why would you want to do that?" Well, she said, "We wanted the world to really know." She repeated that to me twice, you know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Poke out eyes, cut off fingers --

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. And really -- I'm looking at this girl and it's coming out of her mouth and I can't get the words together with the, you know, the girl, which goes to show you you can't tell about a person's looks, you know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, you said that -- Before we get on to Sharon Tate, we have no mention of Folger's death.

MS. GRAHAM: No.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: We have no mention of Sebring except with the hood.

MS. GRAHAM: Right.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: They were going to mutilate the bodies, poke out the eyes and cut off the fingers and such --

MS. GRAHAM: Right.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- but they didn't have time.

MS. GRAHAM: Right.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: DId she indicate why?

MS. GRAHAM: No.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she indicate that they had taken anything up there with them? Now you talked about a rope --

MS. GRAHAM: No. Yeah, I thought the same thing. No, she didn't indicate that to me, that they took anything except themselves.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she talk about finding a rope up there?

MS. GRAHAM: No. Of course, I can only go on the assumption with the purpose of doing something to somebody, I assumed they probably took something with them (Unintelligible)...

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And the weapons, did she talk about --

MS. GRAHAM: Just the gun and her knife.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And her knife?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: The other girls, did they have a knife or anything?

MS. GRAHAM: She did not comment on that.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did they take anything from the house?

MS. GRAHAM: She didn't say.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: When she was talking about her purpose in going up there, what did she say about the main purpose of their being --

MS. GRAHAM: Their main purpose was that they belonged to this group, this helter-skelter group and that they are going to go around all over the county and all over the world and they are going to execute people to release them from this earth, and that you have to have a real love in your heart to do this for people and -- She told me like when she killed Sharon, you know, she said to me, she said, " "And," she said, "It really hurt me because I really loved her. I had to love her to do it." And I thought, oh, God, you know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: She never mentioned Sebring putting up a struggle?

MS. GRAHAM: Not at all. Huh uh.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: On this rope business, what did she say about that?

MS. GRAHAM: I asked her myself about the rope and I said, "Well what was the rope for?" And she said that that was so that they couldn't move; that if they moved they would choke.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she say what they did with it or how they did it or who did it?

MS. GRAHAM: No. Huh uh. No.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Anything more about the rope or who it was around, or --

MS. GRAHAM: No. Huh uh. And then she just told me --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: You had read about the rope in the paper?

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Gosh, yes. And she told me that she held Sharon's arms behind her and that -- I gather -- And she said that Sharon turned around and looked at her and was crying and asked her, "Please don't kill me. Please don't kill me. I want to live. I'm going to have a baby." And she said she looked at Sharon. She said, "I look at her straight in the eye and I told her, "Bitch, I don't care about you and you better be prepared and accept it right now because you are going to die, and I feel nothing behind it," she said. And she said, "In a few minutes she was dead."

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she say how?

MS. GRAHAM: Nope.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: "Looked her straight in the eye --

MS. GRAHAM: Uh huh.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Said, "Bitch, you're going to die --

MS. GRAHAM: Uh huh. And, "You better face it," something like "You better get used to the idea," or, "you better face it (Unintelligible)... And then like I said --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: How about writing?

MS. GRAHAM: She didn't mention anything about that. In fact I had mentioned to Ronnie, this friend of mine, to ask, you know, if she had a chance to talk to her, if she opened up to her, because I remember reading that the word "pig" had been written on the front door and I told Ronnie, "Why don't you see if she will say anything about that and --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: You had never talked to any law enforcement people as such?

MS. GRAHAM: No.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: At that time?

MS. GRAHAM: No. I haven't talked to anybody except this girl Ronnie, when I found out after the girl related all this to me, I said, oh, God, come here quick. And that's it. And them today.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, it's the type of thing you don't hear every day.

MS. GRAHAM: I know. And I didn't know how to take it.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: (Indistinguishable) -- Any other details about it? Did they walk around the house at all? You mentioned that she put her palm --

MS. GRAHAM: On a desk.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- on a desk. Did she say anything about gloves?

MS. GRAHAM: She said she didn't have gloves on, because I mentioned something about, you know, fingerprints, and she said, "Well, I put my hand, you know, up on the desk." And then she went off on this thing about "My spirit is so strong that obviously it didn't even show up," she said, "or they would have had me by now."

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she do it on purpose?

MS. GRAHAM: She didn't say.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she mention anybody else having gloves on?

MS. GRAHAM: No.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she say what she was wearing?

MS. GRAHAM: Nope.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Don't feel bad if you don't know (Unintelligible)..

MS. GRAHAM: No. I would rather say I don't know rather than trying to guess, you know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Sure.

MS. GRAHAM: No. She just said that they changed clothes in the car.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: All right, now. I'm just mentally going through the house. I've never been to the house.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: No mention of taking anything?

MS. GRAHAM: No.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she say anything about the television playing or --

MS. GRAHAM: No, She didn't say. She just said the girl was reading a book in the living room.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: No mention of the TV or stereo or anything?

MS. GRAHAM: Huh uh. Nothing.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: How did they leave? Were they afraid anybody else was on the premises?

MS. GRAHAM: Didn't say. Didn't say anything at all.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: We don't know how they got in in fact except they walked and the first thing they saw was Folger reading a book.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Now we have them leaving.

MS. GRAHAM: They walked out. This I know. She said, "We walked down to the car."

SERGEANT NIELSEN: All right.

MS. GRAHAM: And they got in the car and then they left.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: I presume Charlie was driving?

MS. GRAHAM: I believe so. I think she told me that Charlie was driving. She was sitting up front and she said the two girls were in the rear.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And she said a car?

MS. GRAHAM: A car. Uh huh.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay.

MS. GRAHAM: And that they drove away and then they stopped at this house where -- I don't know whether she said there was a fountain, but there was something there concerning some water and they were going to --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Was it a house or public fountain?

MS. GRAHAM: Well, she said they stopped by a house and there was some kind of water there and they -- I think did she say they got out or somebody got out to wash their hands and a man approached them and wanted to know, you know, "What are you doing here," and he said, "Look, you better get out. You better leave," and somebody climbed back in the car and with this he said, "Yeah, well, wait just a minute," and with this she said he started to reach in. Charlie, she said, pushed his arm out and they took off and she said that she was afraid that he might have gotten their license plate number, and then she laughed again and said, "But I guess he didn't." And that's when she said, "Would you believe who it was?" And I said, "no. Who was it?" And she said it was the Sheriff or the mayor of Beverly Hills and she thought that was really funny.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: I wonder why she thought that?

MS. GRAHAM: I have no idea.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Do you suppose it was somebody on television that she --

MS. GRAHAM: I don't know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Or was it an official?

MS. GRAHAM: I have no idea.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: The man reached into the car?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah, as though he was going to take the keys or do something.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: I take it on Charlie's side?

MS. GRAHAM: Right. Uh huh.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: If they were going down --

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- probably put him on the east side of the street then.

MS. GRAHAM: Yes. See, I didn't (Unintelligible)...

SERGEANT NIELSEN: The car and Charlie pushed his hand away --

MS. GRAHAM: And they took off.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay. Mayor or policeman.

MS. GRAHAM: Or Sheriff. She used the word Sheriff. I almost said to her, I don't think they have a sheriff in Beverly Hills, but I didn't.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: They were changing clothes as well as washing their hands, right?

MS. GRAHAM: I have the idea that they had changed clothes already and they obviously approached this home or something and they saw some kind of water fountain or water and they wanted to wash off a little.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she say they were covered with blood?

MS. GRAHAM: I just said, "Hey, you must have been a mess," and she said, "Uh huh," but that's all.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: What did she say about getting rid of the clothes?

MS. GRAHAM: She didn't comment on that.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Now about getting rid of the car?

MS. GRAHAM: Nothing. That was it. That was just about at the end of the conversation when she went on to the shower and I did too.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: When did you next talk to her about it?

MS. GRAHAM: I spoke to my friend first about it and that's when my friend said to me, well, really, she didn't say that much about the knife and about the hand print. She said, "If that's the case, why don't you try to find out something else," and I thought, well, I would wait a day or so because I didn't want to keep it up. I thought she might become suspicious. So the next time I said something about it we were at lunch together and that's when I commented. I said, "You know, that house that you went up to," I said, "my husband and I had looked at it one time to rent years ago and," I said, "it was decorated beautifully." I said, "It was all done in white and gold," I said, "Was it still like that?" And she said, "Oh, yeah." Like I said, I didn't know (Unintelligible) or what. I mean it was just a shot because I was trying to get her to say, No, No, it was done in blue and green or done, you know, I was just trying to get her to come and comment herself as to what color it was inside.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: You said what color?

MS. GRAHAM: White and gold.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: That was her only reaction?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah, nothing, you know. And then I dropped the subject agin and I didn't discuss it with her after that.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: No more?

MS. GRAHAM: No, because then I left.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did you ever hear anymore about it?

MS. GRAHAM: No, nothing.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did you talk to Ronnie since then?

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah, just before I left. In fact, Ronnie came up to me and she said, "What do you think?" And I told Ronnie, you know, what she had told me about the color of the house and I said, "Ronnie, if you want to take it from here - What do you think?" She said, "I don't know. I've been talking to that girl like every night" and she said, "Boy, she is really weird," like that. She said, "She could have you know." And I said, "Well, whatever you decided to do, you know, go ahead and do it. Tell your P.O." She said, "No. Huh uh." She said, "I see homicide come in here a lot," she said, "I'll just walk right over to one of them," you know, "if I can find out any more." So I said, "Well, if you do," I said, "you can have them come and talk to me if you want and I'll tell them what I know." She said, "Okay" and that's all. I mean that's all I know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Now we talked a couple days later about the other two.

MS. GRAHAM: Oh yeah. I forgot when she told me that, but she told me that come to think of it when she was relating the story to me, come to think of it, because all of this came about, Sergeant Nielsen, within that one conversation and most of it did, you know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Okay.

MS. GRAHAM: And she said to me, "Yeah, you know those other two?" And I said, "Yeah, you did that too?" And she just smiled at me and she said "(Unintelligible)"..., but anyway she indicated to me that either she or her best of friends had something to do with that also. In other words, that this was all kind of a planned thing, you know, to go around and do all these people in. And also she said something else to me, she said, "There's also three people out in the desert," that they had done in. But there were no names in that. She just said it very nonchalant like.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: She talked about the desert as opposed to using the words?

MS. GRAHAM: Desert, uh huh. Yeah. She told me about some jeep that they stole.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Now these other two -- That's all she said? Did she indicate she was with Charlie or --

MS. GRAHAM: Huh uh.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Or that they had done anything unusual? Their method of killing them or --

MS. GRAHAM: No. Huh uh, not at all. She just indicated to me that they had something to do with it, but I mean I don't know that they actually might have done, but it was within their little group, but one was in relation to the other, that's all.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: To go back up to the house up there --

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she indicate anything about tying anybody up when they went, or to keep them under control?

MS. GRAHAM: She just indicated to me that they separated. I mean somebody went with her this way and I guess somebody stayed here. Two people stayed here and that somebody went with her. And, for some reason, I seem to get the idea that it was Charlie that went with her.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And all we can place her with --

MS. GRAHAM: Jay and Sharon, uh huh.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: No struggle mentioned?

MS. GRAHAM: No, not at all.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did any of the people struggle or --

MS. GRAHAM: No, not at all. I think I commented something to her. I said, "Wow," something like that, "wasn't there some kind of a big hassel?" And she said, "No, they were really too surprised really," something to that effect. Oh, she said, "They were too surprised and they knew we meant business.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: I'm just trying to think of every little thing.

MS. GRAHAM: I know.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: There was no mention of the caretaker that was up there?

MS. GRAHAM: (Indistinguishable)

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And when they shot Parent they didn't indicate where exactly?

MS. GRAHAM: Huh uh. She just said that they shot him in the back, you know, they went up behind him and she said shot him in the back of the head four times.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: In the back of the head?

MS. GRAHAM: Uh huh.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Now this helter-skelter group --

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. She said, "You've heard of helter-skelter?" And I said, "No. What's that?" And she said that they belonged to this -- and I don't remember what word she used, I say sect because this is how I identify it, but it's a group of people that are (Unintelligible)...or whatever and their sole purpose on this earth is to go around and do people in and they are all going to get together and the are going to go to Death Valley and that there is a hole there and that Charlie knows where it is because he's been there and they are going to go down and live down under the earth and get away from society. I mean she really thinks that she did the right thing by killing these people, really.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: The papers mention that the word pig had been written.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. I know. I read that. Yeah

SERGEANT NIELSEN: At any time during the discussion of any of the three case, did she ever mention who wrote, or any other words that might have been written?

MS. GRAHAM: No, not at all. She didn't mention that it had even been written, nothing.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And as far as the way the people were killed, these two people, did she just smile? Remember, you asked her about the two people or she mentioned the two people that were killed after the Tates were killed?

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, right. Uh huh.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she ever mention how --

MS. GRAHAM: No.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- or what happened?

MS. GRAHAM: No. She just said that it was in relation to the other. She just said that it's starting.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: There was a pair of glasses. The papers covered that, that a pair of glasses had been left at the scene.

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, I don't remember reading about that.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she talk at all about a pair of glasses?

MS. GRAHAM: No.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Or reason to think that anybody in her party might have had difficulty seeing?

MS. GRAHAM: No.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she talk at all about leaving false clues?

MS. GRAHAM: No.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: She was proud of the spirit and the palm print there.

MS. GRAHAM: No, that's all. Just like I said, the knife she (Indistinguishable) just up there and, you know, didn't know where and the print. That's all. I mean it's really not very much what she told me, but that's why I say, I was very apprehensive because it could be some real wild fairy tale, you know, but being that the girl was in under what she was in, I give it some serious thought.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, you're aware that there is a reward been posted by --

MS. GRAHAM: No. No. I was not.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- Polanski.

MS. GRAHAM: No. I wasn't.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, there is.

MS. GRAHAM: No.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: There's a $25,000 reward for the people who give information leading to the solving of the case.

MS. GRAHAM: No. I really didn't know that and that's -- I'm not even interested, really. I'm not.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, I just thought I'd tell you.

MS. GRAHAM: No. That's not at all. I didn't know about it, and it really wouldn't make any difference at all to me, because the only thing that I came forward and told it. I was thinking that by some crook or fate, this girl beats this case, let's say, you know, this thing she has now, and was free and if it was true what she was saying, that there is a group of people like this, to let her loose to go out and make, you know, massacre some other people. Huh uh. (Indistinguishable) And I've got no snitch record at all. I mean I would never have come here, Sergeant Nielsen, if I had cooperated with the police a few years ago when they wanted my second husband. I wouldn't have done a day and I wouldn't then. So, the only reason I'm telling you this is I don't -- I didn't come up with this because I'm going to meet the parole board, really I didn't. That's why I waited. I knew this before I was reinstated. You knew, I could have been reinstated, but I said well if I go and I come up with this, they are going to say, well, she's saying this because and so I wanted because I figured I would probably get reinstated anyway, you know, and I didn't. And I've been up here two weeks and I've been thinking about it and I even had a dream about it and It's been bothering me. It's just that simple.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, this isn't taking some spare tire.

MS. GRAHAM: No. If I saw somebody do something, I probably -- I don't mean murder -- but I'd probably turn my head and keep going.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Your evaluation, at least in my way of thinking, is perfectly valid because here we've got a girl that thinks she is doing people a favor sending them away, or at least that's the excuse she uses.

MS. GRAHAM: She really seems to believe it though, honestly. And like she told me, said she know how, about people (Unintelligible)..

SERGEANT NIELSEN: She knows how to play crazy, huh?

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. She said she's really good at that, and she said she likes to play the little girl a lot with people like, "Oh, really?" "Oh, no." And she put on a little performance. I was laughing. I said, "You're goofy, baby." And she told me that her real first name is Susan, because I asked her if she had any family, and she said she's got a father and she said that Charlie gave her the name of Sadie Glutz.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: What a name.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: I don't think he did her a favor.

MS. GRAHAM: She said he gave it to her in a fit of anger or something.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Did she say when?

MS. GRAHAM: No. I don't recall when he gave it to her. I have a feeling again it was a while back.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, I can't think of anything else offhand, Virginia.

MS. GRAHAM: Neither can I really.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: We want over it twice. I know you probably will think of a few things tonight or later on.

MS. GRAHAM: If I do, I can jot them down and I can bring them to Miss Downs.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Yes.

MS. GRAHAM: She can --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: I wish you would. Anything, no matter how insignificant it seems.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah, sure. I will. Yeah. Okay. I guess it's okay to go --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, unless you can come up with something else.

MS. GRAHAM: No. Huh uh. I really can't.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, I want to thank you.

MS. GRAHAM: Yes. Well, I mentioned this casually to my husband I didn't go into detail. I just said that, "What would you do?" I said, "I heard something." This was just before I came up here, and I said, "about that thing that happened at Benedict Canyon," and he said, "Mind your own business." I said, "How can I?" He told me to, "Just mind your own business."

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Yes. Almost anything else.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah, but I don't care. Like I said, I can see a lot of things I don't say anything about, but this is sick. This is so bad that I don't -- I don't know who could mind their own business with this.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: We always figure that people who say they didn't see it, they go their own reasons and if they did (Unintelligible)...one thing, but --

MS. GRAHAM: And then she was telling me about she was holding that girl and, you know, like "we killed her," and "that girl was crying" it just really -- I just sat there and said wow to myself, you know, because the girl was pregnant and all that. Well, anyway, she has to be (Unintelligible)...

SERGEANT NIELSEN: If it came to a point where she might be released back into society --

MS. GRAHAM: Oh, lord --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- unless somebody could get up and tell what she told them --

MS. GRAHAM: Uh huh.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- would you be willing to do that?

MS. GRAHAM: Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah. I would, yes. I thought about that, too, because (Unintelligible)...scared to death, because if there is a group of people like this, it's not a fantasy in her head, I don't know where they are and I'm sure I wouldn't want them to come and get me, but, yeah, I would. I mean if you felt that you had a case, then you got me.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Well, something this serious, we wouldn't want to go to trial unless we felt we had enough to convict, because -

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: -- because once a person is in jeopardy, and if they are found absolutely not guilty, then you can't try them again.

MS. GRAHAM: Yes, I know that.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: And so somebody of this nature, with the type of crimes she apparently has committed, at least she say she has, we wouldn't make a move on her unless we were positive.

MS. GRAHAM: Yeah. And like I say, I've got a lot of years left and I sure wouldn't -- And then too, if she was found -- I said to myself, I'm here in prison population, and that's not too good, you know, but I'm not going to be here that long. I had a small violation and it's not a bad one and I might be here only three or four months. My parole officer said so. I'm not too concerned about it.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: How long a parole do you have to go on?

MS. GRAHAM: I have about another three years left. Yeah, and --

SERGEANT NIELSEN: What's your parole officer's name?

MS. GRAHAM: (Unintelligible)...And she's very very nice.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: Verdine?

MS. GRAHAM: V-e-r-d-i-n-e.

SERGEANT NIELSEN: What office does she work at?

MS. GRAHAM: (Unintelligible)...

SERGEANT NIELSEN: All right (Unintelligible)...Now remember, no matter how insignificant or how many (Unintelligible)...how many calls you make, you call us collect (voices fading -- unintelligible)... Thanks a lot, Virginia.

***