• LAPD Interview Transcript of Virginia Graham, November 26, 1969

Monthly Archives: January 2014

LAPD Interview Transcript of Virginia Graham, November 26, 1969

Tuesday, January 28th, 2014

Jan. 28 – On Wednesday, November 26, 1969, the Homicide division of LAPD received a phone call from prison officials in Corona, after an inmate, Virginia Graham, had informed them she had information about the Tate murders.

Graham, who had been recently transferred from the Sybil Brand Institute, told authorities that her former dorm mate, Sadie Glutz, had told her she was among a group of people who had committed the Tate-LaBianca murders. In response, LAPD sent Sergeant Michael Nielsen, one of the homicide detectives investigating the LaBianca murders.

Audio Archives, Danny DeCarlo interviewed by the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department – Part Two

Tuesday, January 14th, 2014

Jan. 14 – Part two of the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department, Homicide Bureau interview of Straight Satans motorcycle club member Danny DeCarlo, regarding the murder of Gary Hinman. This interview was conducted at the Hall of Justice on November 19, 1969.


SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Were you there when Bobby called?


I wasn’t there but he called the ranch and he asked to go down to a pay phone. Gary said – Charlie said, pay phone.


DANNY DeCARLO: That fella called (unintelligible)

Alright, Charlie gets on the phone and Bobby ran it down to him, “Gary ain’t cooperating.”

Charlie says, “Alright, I’ll be up there.”

So him and Bruce, went up to Gary’s house. And Charlie brought that big long sabre, that I gave to Sergeant Gutierrez, Big long cutlass. And so he walked in the house. And uh, right away Gary ran out to Charlie, “Charlie,” said “I don’t want no trouble. I just want you to leave and take everybody with you. And get out of my house. I’m not gonna tell the police about nothing. Just get out of here.” Charlie didn’t say a word. Smack, cut his ear off.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Charlie now —

DANNY DeCARLO: Charlie —


DANNY DeCARLO: — cut Gary’s ear with this knife. And Bobby – the way Bobby ran it down, he said blood was pouring from the side he chopped his ear right off. Gary hit the ground.

Charlie says, “Listen here little partner, I ain’t bullshitting with you, I’ll kill you. I want your money. I want your house, I want everything.”

And that was the idea. Get everything he owned. ‘Cause they talked about him before, as being a Political Piggy. See, a political fuck up. “Gary’s fucked up in his head, he’s a pig, he’s gotta go. He’s just like society, part of society, so let’s get rid of him. First lets get his money.” They wanted money. To get to the desert they needed money to get out to the desert. He needed money to buy his dune buggies, and buy all his supplies, and walkie talkies and radios, anything he wants, with that 20 grand would set them off on the road. And he knew that he had it, I don’t know how he knew that he had it. And I don’t know for sure whether he had it. I’m going by what he told me.

Then after Charlie hit him with the sword, he and Bruce immediately left. Came back down to the ranch. I didn’t see them come down to the ranch. Or uh, I don’t know when they left to go up there and I didn’t see them when they came back. These are all conversations that Bobby told me.

Alright, so, Bobby started, telling Gary, ya know, they were there for two days. Gary Hinman and his house, two fucking days, man, with this guy.They were just beating the living shit out of him. (unintelligible)

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Bobby’s told you —

DANNY DeCARLO: Bobby’s telling me this right from the horse’s mouth.

So, a little bit while goes on, a little bit, like 37 hours, half a day or whatever the fuck it is. Bobby calls Charlie up at the ranch.

Says, “Charlie, I don’t know what to do about Gary.”

so he says he wants to get out of his house, he guy isn’t gonna give us nothing.

Then Charlie told Bobby, “Well, you know what to do, brother.”

And then he — “you know what to do,” his exact words.

So uh, Bobby says to him, “You want me to kill him?”

Charles goes, “Yeah, brother, that’s the only way to do it, you got to do it. Don’t think much about it.”

So Bobby hung up the phone. Went over to Gary and pulled out his little knife, and hit him with it. He hit him about four – he hit him more than once. From what I understand, three or four, five or six, maybe ten. But, the first three or four times didn’t do him in, he didn’t die. He kept struggling, he uh, kept on breathing. He says, the more times he hit him, the more he wanted – he kept having a desire to live. And Bobby wouldn’t die on him. Bobby says, when he finally went, well, he’s laying on the ground and Bobby knelt beside him and, told him, “Gary,” ya know, “sorry, but,” uh, “it’s a lot better that you go this way.” And uh, tell him he loved him. “I’m your brother, you’re nothing but a pig, and this is the best thing I can do for you.” And he said, he was right I’m going to meet with Bruce. He said, he was going out to lunch. So as he was dead, the plan was, take his blood and smear piggy on the wall, and put a Black Panther paw, in his own blood, on there. Alright, he did that, now this is. Now after — he had actually told me this. After he had told me what he had done, they went back to the house. To wipe all that stuff off of the wall. Cus they decided, for some strange reason, I don’t know why, they didn’t want it to be charged to a Black Panther. I, I don’t know the trip behind it. But they went back there to wipe it off. This is Bobby told me, he went back there and he could hear, he could hear the maggots eating away at his body. He said the place stunk like a motherfucker. So they went back there to really, double check and wipe the place down (unintelligible). And I’m not sure, I’m not positive, but I think Sadie went back with him, to the same house again. This is approximately a week later after he’s dead. I know he’s, he’s — I don’t know how long he was dead before you found him. But, uh, what he told me, it must’ve been four or five days after they killed him, they went back. So he said that it already been four or five days since he killed him, he still found him. And he went back and wiped all that shit off the wall. He dusted the house, wiped all the fingerprints off.

Alright, a Toyota, a white Toyota and that funny Volkswagen bus, show up at, the ranch. The same time, everybody was living down there at the back house. The back house was (unintelligible). If they brought the Volkswagen bus down there, well they can’t bust and run. In fact, (unintelligible) not knowing whose it was or is, as far as I was concerned. So, for driving around with that bloody car with the head out, a radiator. There was a radiator that didn’t belong, it wasn’t stock. It was another radiator that was put on there. (unintelligible)

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Do you remember, Danny, about what time this was, you know, what month, this all went down?

DANNY DeCARLO: It’s either the, the last of July or the first of August.



SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: And you said —

DANNY DeCARLO: — Let me —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: — ok, go ahead.

DANNY DeCARLO: Let me tell you something. (unintelligible) Now you start asking me about time.There was no clocks.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: I know that.

DANNY DeCARLO: There was no calendars. All I know, it got light, it got dark, it got light and it got dark. I didn’t even know when Friday come around, so I’d go down to Venice for my meetings. I even forgot, I didn’t even know when Friday was. Like, so there’s no clocks, no calendars, so don’t, quote me on the time. I can be more honest —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Sure, sure —

DANNY DeCARLO: — no clock.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: — you say roughly it was the last part of July.

DANNY DeCARLO: Last part of July, roughly.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok. Now, when you had this conversation with, with Beausoleil, did he say how long ago this had happened? That all of this went down?

DANNY DeCARLO: It was, it was the day before.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: He told you they had —

DANNY DeCARLO: the day after

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: the day after?

DANNY DeCARLO: Right, the day after he ran it down to me, cus he bragged about the —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: You were in the bunkhouse, you say?

DANNY DeCARLO: The bunkhouse, I took you to a ride to.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok, and was anybody else in there, when he told the story?

DANNY DeCARLO: There might’ve been a few girls in and out of the place. But he directed the conversation like I’m directing to you.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Just between the two of you?

DANNY DeCARLO: Just between the two of us.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok, was it daytime or night time.

DANNY DeCARLO: Day time, it was the afternoon. It was around four, five o’clock in the afternoon. He got back to the ranch about that time.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Did Sadie ever talk to you about what happened up there?


SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Did uh, Mary ever talk to you about what happened?

DANNY DeCARLO: No, not ever.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Anytime that Beausoleil is talking, did he, tell you what they did? What each one of them participated in?

DANNY DeCARLO: He only told me what Sadie did. That’s when he went in the other room, he gave the gun to Sadie. The 9mm automatic, gave it to Sadie, to hold on Gary, who was sitting behind his desk. That’s all I knew, he was sitting behind his desk. And he got Sadie to hold the gun on Gary, while Bobby went searching around the house for shit to dig up. Bobby said he heard Sadie say, “Gary sit down. Gary stay there now, Gary. I’m telling you, Gary.” Then Bobby said he heard it and he ran back in there, about the same time, that Bobby got to Sadie.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Did he say how he wrote on the wall? What with?

DANNY DeCARLO: No. He just said, we took his, we took his blood and wrote on the wall. He didn’t say whether it was with a paint brush, whether it was with a rag, whether it was with his own bare hands, that he didn’t say.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Did he say what he wrote on the wall?

DANNY DeCARLO: He said he wrote, uh, you are a pig, kill the piggies, it had something to do with pigs. Then he put a panther paw. The panther paw I know he put, because he described it to me. Like a panther paw. Cus that was the idea, ??? the fact, that, to put this on the Panthers. See, cus Charlie, before that, had shot a Panther. And the police knew that the Panthers were after Charlie. So, he was trying to put shit on the Black Panthers, on Hinman’s death.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: While we’re speaking, did you ever have a conversation with Bobby, that Charlie Manson was present and heard Bobby relay these facts?


SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Did you ever Charlie Manson ever say to you, or did he ever say anything like, “I sent Bobby there to do a job,” or anything like that?


SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Did Bobby ever tell you that Charlie sent him?


SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: To get money?

DANNY DeCARLO: To get money, right.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: To get his cars, the pink slips?

DANNY DeCARLO: Why is it before they went up there – now this is Charlie’s plan.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Charlie made the plan then, before he went up there.

DANNY DeCARLO: Before he went up there, to get twenty-thousand dollars.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: And included in that plan, he also sent up there to get what else?

DANNY DeCARLO: Anything they could get their hands on.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Why is it he needs the property?

DANNY DeCARLO: But, he didn’t have it. Now, when Bobby came back, the only thing he brought back was that (unintelligible) Corolla and that Volkswagen bus. Let me tell you another thing. There was a tape player taken out of that Toy- I mean that Volkswagen bus, that the Malibu Sheriffs had. It was taken out of his bus. Now, when I was, busted up there out on the ranch, that particular tape player was there. Now, it came out of that bus. Now, the bus belonged to Hinman and that tape player came out of that bus.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Now, when Bobby was talking to you, Danny, did he use the name, Gary Hinman?

DANNY DeCARLO: Right, Gary.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: So you have no doubt in your mind that he was talking about Gary Hinman? You don’t know Gary Hinman?

DANNY DeCARLO: I don’t know Gary Hinman, no.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: So he had to be talking to you about Gary Hinman? I mean, he had to say that.

DANNY DeCARLO: Yes. Now, the name Gary Hinman was mentioned. That name was mentioned even before they went up there, Gary Hinman.

Now, when I read in the paper that Sadie Glutz had been arrested on suspision of murder of Gary Hinman, that when I really found out his last name. Other than that it was just Gary, as far as I knew, just Gary.

But, apparently they (unintelligible), This is the same Gary.

Now, he came back and says, “Yeah,” and he pulled the knife out of the sheath, and he says, “I did it with this knife, right here.”

I said, if you did it, then you’re an idiot. If you carry that son-of-a-bitch around with you, if you did do it.

But he says, attitude was so carefree, so, like he was telling me again, I just had to go out of the trailer. It was, just a casual conversation.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: He was trying to be a big wheel, like Bruce.

DANNY DeCARLO: That’s what I thought it was. I figured he was just bullshitting, he’s trying to play on me because I’m a motorcycle rider.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Now, after Bobby got done telling you these things, Danny. Did he ever say that he planned on leaving town or —


SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: As far as you knew he intended to stay right there at the ranch

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: As far as you knew he intended to stay right there at the ranch?

DANNY DeCARLO: (Indistinguishable)

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Did he tell ya– Did he tell you, about, that he had the car? That he got the cars out of the deal?

DANNY DeCARLO: (Inaudible)

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Did he tell you how they left the location?

DANNY DeCARLO: No. He didn’t say how he left the location, no. But, for what I understand, the cars, not the car (unintelligible)later on, when, when he got busted in that Toyota. Then I found out, that that Toyota and the Volkswagen bus, belonged to Gary Hinman. Now they had found out that allow that was all they got out of the place, was the Toyota, and was the, uh, Volkswagen bus. And, Charlie told him to take that fucking Toyota down to the valley and dump it, get rid of it; wipe it down, clean; for Bobby to do that. For some strange reason, he drove up north with it. And when he got busted, well Charlie says, “it was his own fucking fault. I told him to drop it off down at the (unintelligible).,” he says. “I didn’t tell anybody,” he says, “so Bobby got busted by himself. It was his own fucking fault.” Now when he did, he had the knife on him. That’s the knife that he killed Hinman with.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: He took the knife —

DANNY DeCARLO: I think it was this knife right here.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Would you recognize the knife


DANNY DeCARLO: little stubby knife,

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: You say it has mexican writing on it?

DANNY DeCARLO: Not mexican writing, it’s uh, mexican style knife, like a bowie knife.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Oh, oh, I thought you said it had mexican writing on it.

DANNY DeCARLO: No, it has —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Let’s, take a break for just a minute. How about I go down and get a cigarette. What do you smoke?

DANNY DeCARLO: Uh, Marlboro.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Want more coffee?

DANNY DeCARLO: Yeah, I better.


Audio Archives, Danny DeCarlo interviewed by the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department – Part One

Saturday, January 4th, 2014

Jan. 13 – Part one of the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department, Homicide Bureau interview of Straight Satans motorcycle club member Danny DeCarlo, regarding the murder of Gary Hinman. This interview was conducted at the Hall of Justice on November 19, 1969.

DANNY DeCARLO: (Unintelligible)

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Just be honest. Danny, all, all we’re asking from you, is just be honest with us.

Don’t uh – If – if you’re honest with us – I, I, promise you that I can’t be any different than Gutierrez. We’re gonna be just as honest with you. And – In fact, we’ve already started being honest with you.



(Unintelligible), Sergeant Paul Whiteley and Sergeant (Unintelligible).

Well, let’s first of all make sure we’ve got your right name.

Ok, you’re Daniel T. DeCarlo, is that right?

DANNY DeCARLO: That’s correct.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok, and your address is 8335?

DANNY DeCARLO: (Unintelligible)

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: a-o-l-e-g-i-o, drive

DANNY DeCARLO: drive, L.A. 45

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Do you have a phone there, Danny?

DANNY DeCARLO: Yes sir, I do. 641-1691.


What’s your father’s first name?


SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Mother’s name?

And your mother?

DANNY DeCARLO: Gloria. Gloria Marie, DeCarlo.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok, Will you tell us – first of all – what you know, about — Ah, I turned it up. I thought it was doing. Something to tell it, all these god damn

(Unintelligible; too many people talking at one time)

Uh, let’s start out with all you know about Bobby Beausoleil.

DANNY DeCARLO: Alright. Ok, Bobby now — from what I first heard about Bobby, he was a musician; he knew music. And I understand also, that he was one of the best guitar players, that are around.

Now Bobby, used to live at that ranch at one time, but he left (unintelligible), everybodys come back. Well, approximately, two weeks before Gary Hinman got it, maybe not even that, maybe a week and a half.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Two weeks is the following week.

DANNY DeCARLO: Gary shows back — I mean Bobby shows back up at the ranch

(background noises)

Now, he said he was hung up on this little girl up there. He said, that’s one of the reasons why, because he was trying to get her, to leave the ranch with him. But, Charlie was his god. Whatever Charlie did, he did. Whatever Charlie think, he’d think. It was this tight, you know.

So, and you just want about Beausoleil. Well, that’s about all I know, that’s first how I met him. Just prior to what happened to Hinman. And uh, he bought the three wheeler and he wanted me to rebuild the three wheeler for him. (unintelligible) but I never got around to it (unintelligible)

That’s uh – that’s about as far as I know, thats he’s a musician, a friend of Charlie’s, uh, the time he (unintelligible) the ranch, I saw a three wheeler out with him, that he was building. The first contact I had with him was about parts. He called up the ranch and he wanted to trade parts. He had this motorcycle, he had that motorcycle.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Were you living at the ranch at that time Danny?




SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Did you have a conversation with him, right after or just before, the Hinman deal went down, with Gary. Did you know Gary Hinman?

DANNY DeCARLO: No, never seen him before in my life, I didn’t know who he was.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: You’re sure you didn’t.


(Unintelligible; too many people talking at one time)

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok, you didn’t know Gary?

DANNY DeCARLO: I’ve never seen the man in my life.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok. Tell us, tell me what happened then. Just about the time about the Gary Hinman deal. What was the next contact you had with Bobby?

DANNY DeCARLO: The next contact – well, Bobby was right there where I was living.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: He was living there same time you were.

DANNY DeCARLO: Same time I was.


DANNY DeCARLO: Ok, the first thing I ever heard about Hinman, was that he had 20 grand.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Who told you this?

DANNY DeCARLO: Charlie, he told me this.

He had $20,000 and they were going to go out there and get the money off him. Now they, this is, they were talking about this for probably weeks – the Gary Hinman’s money. According —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: (Unintelligible) they, both knew Hinman?

DANNY DeCARLO: They both knew Gary, from prior contact with Gary. Alright, he had 20 grand. Where he got this money, I don’t know? If he had 20 grand, I don’t know? They just said it was $20,000 that they were gonna get.

So they have to, talk somebody out of it. So they’re gonna talk it out of Gary Hinman.

So, they sent Bobby, they sent Sadie, and they sent Mary.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Sadie is who?

DANNY DeCARLO: Sadie Glutz.



SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Mary is, Mary who?



Sent them up to Gary’s house?


SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Do you know where Gary’s house is?

DANNY DeCARLO: Not the slightest idea.


DANNY DeCARLO: Ok, now I’m telling you, what he told me, when he came back, I’ll run it on down to you.


DANNY DeCARLO: He is Bobby Beausoleil.


DANNY DeCARLO: Right from the horse’s mouth. Now this is when he came back. And a little bit, what Charlie told me, from when they got there. Now when they left, I don’t know. When they came back, I don’t know. What they left in, I don’t know. I’m only telling you what he told me when he came back. And that’s where I’m going to start, when he came back. Ok, I was in the end bunkhouse, on the ranch. Right, he came back, and uh, I says — he was telling me about uh, he had stabbed Gary Hinman. He says, ‘and I got the motherfucker, I said, I killed him.’ He says, “it’s pretty weird, I never killed anyone before in my life.” And he had a little knife, that he carried with him. A little a, like a bowie knife – a mexican, bowie knife. A Mexican, a bowie with a blade that comes up like this and down like this and under, fancy handle, fancy engraving on the handle. You people have it.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: How do you know that?

DANNY DeCARLO: Cus, he carried it constantly on his hip —


DANNY DeCARLO: — on a sheath. When he got busted up there in San Luis Obispo in that little Toyota, he had that knife on him. He was supposed to take that Toyota out of town —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Let me ask you something.


SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: How do you know he had the knife on him?

DANNY DeCARLO: Cause he (Unintelligible), he never parted with it.


DANNY DeCARLO: When he did it, Bobby — Charlie told him to get rid of the knife, he never did. He didn’t want to get rid of the knife, because he loved it. That’s why he kept it with him. So when he got arrested up in San Luis Obispo, he had the knife with him, right? He had that knife? Didn’t your crime lab check that knife and it came back clean? Well that was the knife that did it. I almost choked, when I heard that.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Well now, not that our crime lab came back clean, but we have, we did test the knife.

DANNY DeCARLO: Yeah, well he, he called the ranch while he was in jail and said, yeah the crime lab came back, and he said the knife, wasn’t the knife that did it.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: That’s not true.

DANNY DeCARLO: Well, that’s what he said.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok, anyway. Let’s go down, specifically – first of all – I take it you’re gonna tell me a conversation you got from Beausoleil, some that you got from Manson, and you pieced the whole thing together, of what happened.

DANNY DeCARLO: Now, the conversation I had with Manson, is that, that Gary had 20 grand.


DANNY DeCARLO: And uh, he was gonna get the 20 grand off Gary – force him out of it. Not only the 20 grand, but he was gonna get him to sign over his house, sign over his car, and that Volkswagen bus. Now all-of-a-sudden my name got next to that Volkswagen bus, it was at the ranch when I was up there. But believe me, I had nothing to —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: The guy we, we arrested in the car said you were one of the guys who sold it.

DANNY DeCARLO: He’s a lying motherfucker and go up against a lie detector test.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok, we’re not making any accusations —

DANNY DeCARLO: Well, I’m not —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: — I’m just told you how you’re name got into the deal.


SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok. well anyway, let’s go – first things first. Ok, first, let’s go, so it’s clear in our minds. First of all, why don’t you tell us, uh Danny, what Robert Beausoleil told you, just what he told you.

DANNY DeCARLO: Ok, this is, what I’m telling you is after he did it.


DANNY DeCARLO: He came back and we got to talking about Gary. And he ran down the whole trip, of, what he, what he did when he was up there.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Tell me what he told you.

DANNY DeCARLO: Him, Sadie, Mary, went up to see Gary. Bobby, sitting there bullshiting with him.

“Hey Gary, what’s happening, how’s it going?”

“Pretty Good”

“Yeah, good to hear that”

“How you doing?”

“Yeah, good”

“Glad to hear that”

“Yeah, that good to hear.”

This went on for a couple of hours. Then Bobby said, “Gary, I want everything you got” and pulls out a gun, that 9mm Radom. That’s the pistol, that, they had bought. Cus I was with them, it was the same day I bought that Signat .45 for Charles, under Richard Smith. That people are telling me I have to go turn myself in for. I bought that gun the same day they bought that Radom, .9mm polish Radom. I should’ve let them buy both, but I didn’t. But anyway, he pulled the gun on him.

“So look here Gary, I want your money.”

“I want everything you got.”

“Crazy motherfucker, got outta my house, you piece of shit. Get the hell outta my house.”

Bobby pistol whipped him, bam! And the first time he hit him, he cracked, the pistol grip on him; the pistol grip handle, was, if you know – if you’re familiar with a .9mm Radom, second world war, polish, that gun was shot. Shot it once and it chipped. And the pistol grip was very brittle. He dropped the pistol and it broke, the pistol grip shattered, because it was really brittle plastic. When we brought the pistol back, the uh, the pistol grip was broken in half, on one side, it was broken in half. Cus I remember, “Who the fuck did this?” I said. Bobby said, “I broke that on Gary’s head.”

Ok, so he pulled the gun out on him, and uh, Gary wasn’t going for it.

“Man, get the hell outta my fucking house, man. Get the hell out of here.”

So Bobby pistol whipped him, you see. He threw them out (unintelligible) “put two fuckers in him if you don’t. I want you to know I’m not fucking around. Look here Gary, I don’t want no trouble with you. I don’t want to hurt you. I want your $20,000, where’s it at?”

Gary, “I don’t have no money, I don’t have nothing.”

Bobby wouldn’t believe him. So, he gave the gun to Sadie, “Sadie watch him”

Gary was sitting behind his desk (unintelligible) So Bobby went and searched the house. And Bobby said, he’s in the other room and heard Sadie say, “Now sit down Gary. Now Gary sit down, don’t make me shoot you, now Gary.” Now so Bobby said, he ran back in there, just about the time that Gary got to Sadie with the gun. All three of them met at the same time. They’re hassling with the gun and it went off. The bullet, Bobby says, traveled, right into a drain pipe, right through that, ricocheted, it went through the wall; up into the house, (unintelligible) in the back. He said, if the police go back there, do you think they can find the bullet? I said, yes they could. And that’s why – that’s when they got rid of the pistol. After that, they didn’t want the pistol traced back. So they got rid of the pistol and gave it to this other guy, who I already told Sergeant Gutierrez who it was. And uh, so anyway, they wrestled the gun away from Gary. And he gave him (unintelligible) help him up for Gary to settle down. So about that time, Bobby called up Charlie. So, Charlie said alright, I’ll come up there. You know Bruce went up there.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Were you there when Bobby called?


I wasn’t there but he called the ranch and he asked to go down to a pay phone. Gary said – Charlie said, pay phone.