• LAPD Interview Transcript of Virginia Graham, November 26, 1969

(Unintelligible)

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Were you there when Bobby called?

DANNY DeCARLO: No.

I wasn’t there but he called the ranch and he asked to go down to a pay phone. Gary said – Charlie said, pay phone.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Mmm hmm.

DANNY DeCARLO: That fella called (unintelligible)

Alright, Charlie gets on the phone and Bobby ran it down to him, “Gary ain’t cooperating.”

Charlie says, “Alright, I’ll be up there.”

So him and Bruce, went up to Gary’s house. And Charlie brought that big long sabre, that I gave to Sergeant Gutierrez, Big long cutlass. And so he walked in the house. And uh, right away Gary ran out to Charlie, “Charlie,” said “I don’t want no trouble. I just want you to leave and take everybody with you. And get out of my house. I’m not gonna tell the police about nothing. Just get out of here.” Charlie didn’t say a word. Smack, cut his ear off.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Charlie now —

DANNY DeCARLO: Charlie —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: — hit Gary.

DANNY DeCARLO: — cut Gary’s ear with this knife. And Bobby – the way Bobby ran it down, he said blood was pouring from the side he chopped his ear right off. Gary hit the ground.

Charlie says, “Listen here little partner, I ain’t bullshitting with you, I’ll kill you. I want your money. I want your house, I want everything.”

And that was the idea. Get everything he owned. ‘Cause they talked about him before, as being a Political Piggy. See, a political fuck up. “Gary’s fucked up in his head, he’s a pig, he’s gotta go. He’s just like society, part of society, so let’s get rid of him. First lets get his money.” They wanted money. To get to the desert they needed money to get out to the desert. He needed money to buy his dune buggies, and buy all his supplies, and walkie talkies and radios, anything he wants, with that 20 grand would set them off on the road. And he knew that he had it, I don’t know how he knew that he had it. And I don’t know for sure whether he had it. I’m going by what he told me.

Then after Charlie hit him with the sword, he and Bruce immediately left. Came back down to the ranch. I didn’t see them come down to the ranch. Or uh, I don’t know when they left to go up there and I didn’t see them when they came back. These are all conversations that Bobby told me.

Alright, so, Bobby started, telling Gary, ya know, they were there for two days. Gary Hinman and his house, two fucking days, man, with this guy.They were just beating the living shit out of him. (unintelligible)

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Bobby’s told you —

DANNY DeCARLO: Bobby’s telling me this right from the horse’s mouth.

So, a little bit while goes on, a little bit, like 37 hours, half a day or whatever the fuck it is. Bobby calls Charlie up at the ranch.

Says, “Charlie, I don’t know what to do about Gary.”

so he says he wants to get out of his house, he guy isn’t gonna give us nothing.

Then Charlie told Bobby, “Well, you know what to do, brother.”

And then he — “you know what to do,” his exact words.

So uh, Bobby says to him, “You want me to kill him?”

Charles goes, “Yeah, brother, that’s the only way to do it, you got to do it. Don’t think much about it.”

So Bobby hung up the phone. Went over to Gary and pulled out his little knife, and hit him with it. He hit him about four – he hit him more than once. From what I understand, three or four, five or six, maybe ten. But, the first three or four times didn’t do him in, he didn’t die. He kept struggling, he uh, kept on breathing. He says, the more times he hit him, the more he wanted – he kept having a desire to live. And Bobby wouldn’t die on him. Bobby says, when he finally went, well, he’s laying on the ground and Bobby knelt beside him and, told him, “Gary,” ya know, “sorry, but,” uh, “it’s a lot better that you go this way.” And uh, tell him he loved him. “I’m your brother, you’re nothing but a pig, and this is the best thing I can do for you.” And he said, he was right I’m going to meet with Bruce. He said, he was going out to lunch. So as he was dead, the plan was, take his blood and smear piggy on the wall, and put a Black Panther paw, in his own blood, on there. Alright, he did that, now this is. Now after — he had actually told me this. After he had told me what he had done, they went back to the house. To wipe all that stuff off of the wall. Cus they decided, for some strange reason, I don’t know why, they didn’t want it to be charged to a Black Panther. I, I don’t know the trip behind it. But they went back there to wipe it off. This is Bobby told me, he went back there and he could hear, he could hear the maggots eating away at his body. He said the place stunk like a motherfucker. So they went back there to really, double check and wipe the place down (unintelligible). And I’m not sure, I’m not positive, but I think Sadie went back with him, to the same house again. This is approximately a week later after he’s dead. I know he’s, he’s — I don’t know how long he was dead before you found him. But, uh, what he told me, it must’ve been four or five days after they killed him, they went back. So he said that it already been four or five days since he killed him, he still found him. And he went back and wiped all that shit off the wall. He dusted the house, wiped all the fingerprints off.

Alright, a Toyota, a white Toyota and that funny Volkswagen bus, show up at, the ranch. The same time, everybody was living down there at the back house. The back house was (unintelligible). If they brought the Volkswagen bus down there, well they can’t bust and run. In fact, (unintelligible) not knowing whose it was or is, as far as I was concerned. So, for driving around with that bloody car with the head out, a radiator. There was a radiator that didn’t belong, it wasn’t stock. It was another radiator that was put on there. (unintelligible)

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Do you remember, Danny, about what time this was, you know, what month, this all went down?

DANNY DeCARLO: It’s either the, the last of July or the first of August.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok.

DANNY DeCARLO: That —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: And you said —

DANNY DeCARLO: — Let me —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: — ok, go ahead.

DANNY DeCARLO: Let me tell you something. (unintelligible) Now you start asking me about time.There was no clocks.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: I know that.

DANNY DeCARLO: There was no calendars. All I know, it got light, it got dark, it got light and it got dark. I didn’t even know when Friday come around, so I’d go down to Venice for my meetings. I even forgot, I didn’t even know when Friday was. Like, so there’s no clocks, no calendars, so don’t, quote me on the time. I can be more honest —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Sure, sure —

DANNY DeCARLO: — no clock.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: — you say roughly it was the last part of July.

DANNY DeCARLO: Last part of July, roughly.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok. Now, when you had this conversation with, with Beausoleil, did he say how long ago this had happened? That all of this went down?

DANNY DeCARLO: It was, it was the day before.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: He told you they had —

DANNY DeCARLO: the day after

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: the day after?

DANNY DeCARLO: Right, the day after he ran it down to me, cus he bragged about the —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: You were in the bunkhouse, you say?

DANNY DeCARLO: The bunkhouse, I took you to a ride to.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok, and was anybody else in there, when he told the story?

DANNY DeCARLO: There might’ve been a few girls in and out of the place. But he directed the conversation like I’m directing to you.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Just between the two of you?

DANNY DeCARLO: Just between the two of us.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Ok, was it daytime or night time.

DANNY DeCARLO: Day time, it was the afternoon. It was around four, five o’clock in the afternoon. He got back to the ranch about that time.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Did Sadie ever talk to you about what happened up there?

DANNY DeCARLO: Never.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Did uh, Mary ever talk to you about what happened?

DANNY DeCARLO: No, not ever.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Anytime that Beausoleil is talking, did he, tell you what they did? What each one of them participated in?

DANNY DeCARLO: He only told me what Sadie did. That’s when he went in the other room, he gave the gun to Sadie. The 9mm automatic, gave it to Sadie, to hold on Gary, who was sitting behind his desk. That’s all I knew, he was sitting behind his desk. And he got Sadie to hold the gun on Gary, while Bobby went searching around the house for shit to dig up. Bobby said he heard Sadie say, “Gary sit down. Gary stay there now, Gary. I’m telling you, Gary.” Then Bobby said he heard it and he ran back in there, about the same time, that Bobby got to Sadie.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Did he say how he wrote on the wall? What with?

DANNY DeCARLO: No. He just said, we took his, we took his blood and wrote on the wall. He didn’t say whether it was with a paint brush, whether it was with a rag, whether it was with his own bare hands, that he didn’t say.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Did he say what he wrote on the wall?

DANNY DeCARLO: He said he wrote, uh, you are a pig, kill the piggies, it had something to do with pigs. Then he put a panther paw. The panther paw I know he put, because he described it to me. Like a panther paw. Cus that was the idea, ??? the fact, that, to put this on the Panthers. See, cus Charlie, before that, had shot a Panther. And the police knew that the Panthers were after Charlie. So, he was trying to put shit on the Black Panthers, on Hinman’s death.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: While we’re speaking, did you ever have a conversation with Bobby, that Charlie Manson was present and heard Bobby relay these facts?

DANNY DeCARLO: No.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Did you ever Charlie Manson ever say to you, or did he ever say anything like, “I sent Bobby there to do a job,” or anything like that?

DANNY DeCARLO: No.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Did Bobby ever tell you that Charlie sent him?

DANNY DeCARLO: Yes.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: To get money?

DANNY DeCARLO: To get money, right.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: To get his cars, the pink slips?

DANNY DeCARLO: Why is it before they went up there – now this is Charlie’s plan.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Charlie made the plan then, before he went up there.

DANNY DeCARLO: Before he went up there, to get twenty-thousand dollars.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: And included in that plan, he also sent up there to get what else?

DANNY DeCARLO: Anything they could get their hands on.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Why is it he needs the property?

DANNY DeCARLO: But, he didn’t have it. Now, when Bobby came back, the only thing he brought back was that (unintelligible) Corolla and that Volkswagen bus. Let me tell you another thing. There was a tape player taken out of that Toy- I mean that Volkswagen bus, that the Malibu Sheriffs had. It was taken out of his bus. Now, when I was, busted up there out on the ranch, that particular tape player was there. Now, it came out of that bus. Now, the bus belonged to Hinman and that tape player came out of that bus.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Now, when Bobby was talking to you, Danny, did he use the name, Gary Hinman?

DANNY DeCARLO: Right, Gary.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: So you have no doubt in your mind that he was talking about Gary Hinman? You don’t know Gary Hinman?

DANNY DeCARLO: I don’t know Gary Hinman, no.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: So he had to be talking to you about Gary Hinman? I mean, he had to say that.

DANNY DeCARLO: Yes. Now, the name Gary Hinman was mentioned. That name was mentioned even before they went up there, Gary Hinman.

Now, when I read in the paper that Sadie Glutz had been arrested on suspision of murder of Gary Hinman, that when I really found out his last name. Other than that it was just Gary, as far as I knew, just Gary.

But, apparently they (unintelligible), This is the same Gary.

Now, he came back and says, “Yeah,” and he pulled the knife out of the sheath, and he says, “I did it with this knife, right here.”

I said, if you did it, then you’re an idiot. If you carry that son-of-a-bitch around with you, if you did do it.

But he says, attitude was so carefree, so, like he was telling me again, I just had to go out of the trailer. It was, just a casual conversation.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: He was trying to be a big wheel, like Bruce.

DANNY DeCARLO: That’s what I thought it was. I figured he was just bullshitting, he’s trying to play on me because I’m a motorcycle rider.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Now, after Bobby got done telling you these things, Danny. Did he ever say that he planned on leaving town or —

DANNY DeCARLO: No.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: As far as you knew he intended to stay right there at the ranch

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: As far as you knew he intended to stay right there at the ranch?

DANNY DeCARLO: (Indistinguishable)

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Did he tell ya– Did he tell you, about, that he had the car? That he got the cars out of the deal?

DANNY DeCARLO: (Inaudible)

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Did he tell you how they left the location?

DANNY DeCARLO: No. He didn’t say how he left the location, no. But, for what I understand, the cars, not the car (unintelligible)later on, when, when he got busted in that Toyota. Then I found out, that that Toyota and the Volkswagen bus, belonged to Gary Hinman. Now they had found out that allow that was all they got out of the place, was the Toyota, and was the, uh, Volkswagen bus. And, Charlie told him to take that fucking Toyota down to the valley and dump it, get rid of it; wipe it down, clean; for Bobby to do that. For some strange reason, he drove up north with it. And when he got busted, well Charlie says, “it was his own fucking fault. I told him to drop it off down at the (unintelligible).,” he says. “I didn’t tell anybody,” he says, “so Bobby got busted by himself. It was his own fucking fault.” Now when he did, he had the knife on him. That’s the knife that he killed Hinman with.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: He took the knife —

DANNY DeCARLO: I think it was this knife right here.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Would you recognize the knife

(Unintelligible)

DANNY DeCARLO: little stubby knife,

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: You say it has mexican writing on it?

DANNY DeCARLO: Not mexican writing, it’s uh, mexican style knife, like a bowie knife.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Oh, oh, I thought you said it had mexican writing on it.

DANNY DeCARLO: No, it has —

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Let’s, take a break for just a minute. How about I go down and get a cigarette. What do you smoke?

DANNY DeCARLO: Uh, Marlboro.

SGT. PAUL WHITELEY: Want more coffee?

DANNY DeCARLO: Yeah, I better.

(Unintelligible)