SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) we’ve got all kinds of goodies (Unintelligible) we’ve got all kinds of goodies (Unintelligible) Leslie, is your last name Sankston?

Is that your true name?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: What other names have you used?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — the last one was Louella Alexandria.

SERGEANT McGANN: Louella Alexandria?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

And — ah ah — It was either Linda — ah — Alexander and either — either Linda — Linda something Owens or (Unintelligible) something I don’t remember (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: It was — it was a few, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Every arrest (Unintelligible) different ones.

SERGEANT McGANN: Right now, you’re going under the name of Leslie L-e-s-l-i-e?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: –l-i-e. Uh-huh. Marie Sankston.

SERGEANT McGANN: S-a-n- —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yes. – –k-s-t-o-n.

SERGEANT McGANN: And that is your true name?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay. Okay.

11/26/69.

Okay.

Well, what’s the other names, now, you’ve used?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Alexandria.

SERGEANT McGANN: Ah — That’s the last name?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: What’s the first name you used with that one?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: L-o-u-e-l-l-a.

SERGEANT McGANN: L-o-u-e- —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — -l-l-a.

SERGEANT McGANN: – –l-a.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Right.

SERGEANT McGANN: Louella, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh — Alexandria.

SERGEANT McGANN: And any others?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, Louise Susan Alexandria.

SERGEANT McGANN: S-u-s-e-n?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: – –a-n. S-u-s-a-n. Susan.

SERGEANT McGANN: Alexander?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Alexandria?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Alexander.

SERGEANT McGANN: You like that Alexander, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It just kept popping in my mind.

SERGEANT McGANN: Anything else? Any others?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

But, I don’t know if it was Leslie or Linda.

It might have been Linda, Linda Owens.

SERGEANT McGANN: O-w-e-n-s?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That was (Unintelligible) yes.

O-w-e-n-s.

That was sometime in either —

Well, that was during the Spahn’s Ranch raid.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s the name you used when you were arrested up there at Spahn, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Any others?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No, not that I can think of.

SERGEANT McGANN: What do they —

What’s your nickname?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Lou.

SERGEANT McGANN: Lou?

Just L-o–u, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Unhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you use Leslie?

Is that one of your —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: — name they call you (Unintelligible) people normally at the Ranch?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: Barker and Spahn, do they call you Leslie, when they —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

But, more towards the end, I was Lou.

But, a lot of the times, I was Leslie.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s just L-e-s-l-i-e?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, just Leslie.

SERGEANT McGANN: Just Leslie, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: My regular old name.

SERGEANT McGANN: Let’s see, that would be — At the first, that’ d be the Spahn Ranch and Barker and, then, later, they called you Lou?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

Just a few of the girls called me Lou or LuLu.

SERGEANT McGANN: LuLu, too?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

I’m Sergeant McGann from Homicide, L.A.P.D.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: And I’m here to talk to you mainly about some crimes that were committed by the group that you ran with.

And I — and I — I know that I have knowledge that you know about these crimes — ah —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: — pretty good information from people that have been talking.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: And I’m just kind of laying my cards on the table, so you’ll know that I — I do know some of the things that happened up there.

And, naturally, I don’t know every detail and that’s why I’m here to talk to you.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: So, hoping that you can fill in some of the details for me, if you will. Ah —

I can say, if you were involved — actually involved in the crime — took part in the crimes yourself — the District Attorney has authorized me to give you immunity —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: — you know —

Immunity means that — In other words, if you —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, I — I (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: You know of this?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: In other words, if you tell me —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Everything.

SERGEANT McGANN: — everything and you implicate yourself in, actually, even one of the murders

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: — you still can’t be prosecuted.

You understand that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: My lawyer went into the details.

SERGEANT McGANN: He went into details.

Okay. Fine.

Well, that’s the setup.

And, as I say, the reason we are here is because we — we’re — we know you’re involved and — ah —

But, then, again, we need — we need someone that — to fill in the spaces that we don’t know about.

So, we might start out as when you first got to the Spahn Ranch.

When did you first go up there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: About — This is — this is where it gets rough, trying to remember.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, if you can only just —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It’s been — It’s been over a year, but I couldn’t tell you the exact —

Probably about a year ago this Fall.

SERGEANT McGANN: A year ago this Fall.

Well, this would be kind of in the Fall of the year, right now, so —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, about a year ago.

SERGEANT McGANN: Be about — ah — November of ’68, then?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: About — about then.

SERGEANT McGANN: About then, huh?

What made you go up there — ah — Leslie?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — I just happened to hear about it, so I went on up.

SERGEANT McGANN: How —

Where — where did you live when you heard about it?

Where were you living?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: San Francisco.

SERGEANT McGANN: With your parents, or

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: — alone, or who were you living with?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: A girl.

SERGEANT McGANN: A girl friend?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

But, I haven’t seen her since.

I was living with her and her husband.

SERGEANT McGANN: And how old a girl was she?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, I’d say she must have been about twenty-two or twenty-three.

SERGEANT McGANN: And then, how — how about her husband?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) around twenty-five or twenty-six.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did — ah —

What was her — What were their names, the people you lived with up there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Her name was Dee.

SERGEANT McGANN: “D” double “E”?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I think so, yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: What was her last name?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t remember.

SERGEANT McGANN: How long did you live there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I lived there about — hum (Unintelligible) about a month, maybe.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, the — the reason —

Let’s not lie to each other:

The reason you don’t want —

You just don’t want to tell me the name of the girl.

I mean, I’m not concerned.

I mean, if — if you just don’t want to tell me —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

I really don’t remember her last name.

I just met her.

I knew her from —

SERGEANT McGANN: You mean, you just met her up there and lived with her for a short time.

Is that it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: A month or so?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

And — ah — how did you hear about the Ranch, the Spahn Ranch?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — Well, I didn’t — I didn’t have a job and I didn’t have — ah — anywhere to go.

And — ah — some people came over, some friends of hers, and they mentioned it.

So, I just thought I’d go back down and check it out, because I really didn’t have anything to do and I knew my stay there wasn’t going to be too much longer.

So, I went down there to Spahn’s.

SERGEANT McGANN: Are you from San Francisco?

Is that where you were born, or —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

I was born in Iowa.

SERGEANT McGANN: And when did you come out here?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: About two years ago.

SERGEANT McGANN: You just left home?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: How come?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Tired of it.

SERGEANT McGANN: Tired of home, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: So, anyway, you went — ah —

Is that where you first — ah — went to when you ca- — came to California is San Francisco?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — the northern area; yeah.

Napa, for a while and —

SERGEANT McGANN: Just —

What’d you do?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, I just lived with groups of people and keep house, or whatever needed to be done.

I never really worked.

Taking the easy way out.

SERGEANT McGANN: Easy way out, huh (Unintelligible) all right.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: You’re a young girl.

How old are you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Twenty.

SERGEANT McGANN: Twenty, huh?

You were born in Iowa?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: What city in Iowa?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Waterloo.

SERGEANT McGANN: Water?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Waterloo.

SERGEANT McGANN: Waterloo. Waterloo, Iowa.

Well, you went down to Spahn Ranch, then, around November of ’68.

We’ve got that kind of established, huh?

Be the Fall of ’68?

Be about a year ago?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I — I’m trying to think if it’s a ye- — a year or two years.

I’m trying to remember how many Falls ago.

Yeah.

It’d be one year ago.

SERGEANT McGANN: One year ago.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: All right.

Who did you meet when you went there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — Diane.

SERGEANT McGANN: Diane, who?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — Blustein.

SERGEANT McGANN: Blustein. Diane Blustein.

Okay.

Who else was there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — Charlie.

SERGEANT McGANN: Charlie?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Manson.

SERGEANT McGANN: Manson.

Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum — Mostly the people that were — ah I was arrested with.

SERGEANT McGANN: At Spahn and at Barker, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: The whole — Almost the whole group was there, then, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

Off and on, people would come and go, come and go.

But, it was like the same faces that would come and go.

SERGEANT McGANN: What were you told up in San Francisco as to what you — to expect up at the Ranch, at Spahn, when you got there, if anything?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — just a group of people that lived on a ranch, an old western ranch, and kept it going for an old man.

So, I figured it was a pretty good deal cause — ah — San Francisco was horrible.

SERGEANT McGANN: What was the problem in San Francisco?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh — Shoosh — Filth.

SERGEANT McGANN: It was filthy, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: When you say “we”, did you go down with anyone?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No. Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: How’d you get down here?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I hitchhiked.

SERGEANT McGANN: Hitchhiked?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did you get a ride all the way down, or —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: One ride?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

It’s pretty easy to get one ride from San Francisco to L. A.

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: At least, it was (Unintelligible) for a while.

SERGEANT McGANN: So, anyway, you arrive down to the Ranch.

And what happened when you got there?

What was the — What were you to do?

What — what was your duties there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, I cooked and cleaned up.

I didn’t really do too much.

SERGEANT McGANN: So, then, the girls were kind of just — ah — more or less girl friends for all of the guys who were there.

Right?

Kind of — you know —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: — just —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: There wasn’t really —

SERGEANT McGANN: — everybody kind of —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — much going on.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

Well, apparently, Charlie and — ah — Tex — He was there when you got there, was he?

Charles Montgomery?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — I really don’t remember if he was there or not.

SERGEANT McGANN: When do you first remember him showing up at the place?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I didn’t really meet him until about — hum — hum — maybe Christmas.

SERGEANT McGANN: Not too long after you arrived, then, at the Ranch?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

And how did he arrive?

How did he — come about that he arrived there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t — I don’t remember.

SERGEANT McGANN: You just remember him being there, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

I just remember I saw him there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who el- —

What other men were there that you remember when you got there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — a guy by the name of Paul and — ah —

All of the guys that were there are gone.

Paul and there was a guy named (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Was Clem there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: He was there when you got there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: How about Bruce Davis?

Was he there when you got there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: When did he come around?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, not until — hum — probably Summer.

SERGEANT McGANN: During the Summer, he showed up, huh?

What part of the Summer?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t remember.

I think it was towards the beginning

SERGEANT McGANN: Towards the beginning of the Summer.

That’s be ’69. Summer of ’69 of this year.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’m pretty sure.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

How about Bill Vance?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: He would come and go.

In fact, I don’t really ever remember him actually living there.

SERGEANT McGANN: When did you first see him?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: When did I first (Unintelligible) him.

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Probably around early Spring — early Spring.

SERGEANT McGANN: Early Spring.

All right.

How about — ah —

Now, the girls that were there, all the girls you were arrested with, in addition to — to — ah — some of the guys —

I thought there was a motorcycle club that came up there, too, during the Summer of this year.

Right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: What were — what were their names, any ones that you remember?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t remember none of the names, but I remember it was — ah — Straight Satans.

SERGEANT McGANN: Straight Satans?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: That was the name of the group?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umham.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Different ones — you know — would

come up (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

Well, as I understand it, the girls were to — ah —

There was a lot of weapons up there, a lot of guns and a lot of knives and stuff.

And the girls were to hide these weapons and, more or less, take charge of some of the weapons, not all of the weapons.

Some of them were in an arsenal and some of them were taken by the girls.

Apparently, the ones that they used in crimes and such would be taken down to some place and buried by the girls.

Is that pretty much right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I didn’t know about any weapons.

SERGEANT McGANN: You never did any of that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No way.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

What weapons up there can you tell me about?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: There was — ah —

I don’t remember — you know — names of rifles and stuff like that.

I never learned them.

But, there was — ah

Whew — One time, there was about six rifles.

There was a machine gun and that’s about all I remember as far as the — you know (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: What about handguns?

There were some handguns, weren’t there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — I don’t remember seeing any.

See, in the — in the bunk house, they had a rack.

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: There were about six rifles there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Well, Charlie had a handgun that’s been described to me — people seeing it and such.

Do you remember that handgun that he practiced with?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: You don’t remember any handgun at all (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well —

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) that he practiced with out there, shooting at — ah — barrels and (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

But, I remember — ah — one time, a couple of Straight Satans came over and they brought over guns.

SERGEANT McGANN: What? Handguns?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

And I remember they were all standing out there and shooting.

And I just — you know —

I didn’t personally — you know — check them out, because I wasn’t that interested, since (Unintelligible) was one of the group (Unintelligible) and of theirs —

I don’t know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, what did the — what did the guns look like that you saw?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Regular old guns, about (Unintelligible) like that (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you’re describing the gun — of a barrel.

A long barrel?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

All in all, it was probably about like that.

SERGEANT McGANN: About twelve inches, huh?

This is the gun he used to fire, Charlie?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know.

I don’t remember him actually —

I didn’t pay too much attention.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

What can you tell me about the knives?

What kind of knives did they have?

They’ve got a big variety of knives.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: When?

SERGEANT McGANN: This would be at Spahn Ranch.

Early August; late July (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Most of them were just average old knives, the kind — you know — you buy at a (Unintelligible) store (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Black handles?

In other words, they were not (Unintelligible) some of the girls went out with credit cards and bought — bought a whole bunch of pretty good knives — some real good knives.

Do you remember those?

They were expensive knives they bought with stolen credit cards.

Were you one of the girls that went out and bought the knives?

Who did that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — I don’t — I don’t know.

See, for about three weeks, I was sort of laid up.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, what for? Why?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I got a — ah —

I had a black widow bite on my knee.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, you did, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) yeah.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And I — you know — I didn’t go to a doctor.

So, for about three weeks, I was just sort of out.

SERGEANT McGANN: When was that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Towards the — ah — end of Summer, about the middle of July to the beginning of August (Unintelligible) around in there (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Middle of July until the beginning of August, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Around in there.

So — ah — you know — I was sort of walking around in a —

For about four days, I was completely out.

I’d wake up just enough to go to the restroom and I’d black out again.

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And then — ah — all the rest of the time, I had to stay in bed.

I couldn’t walk.

So, I really don’t know too much of what was going on.

I was in the back farmhouse — you know —

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: So, I really don’t know. I don’t really remember.

But, the knives, there were all kinds of them.

Some with ivory handles — you know — some with (Unintelligible) around them.

There were some with blades that went this way, and some with blades that went straight up — all kinds.

SERGEANT McGANN: All kinds of knives, huh?

How about the — ah —

Do you have any idea (Unintelligible) what a clasp knife is?

A clasp knife is one that closes —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: — like a pocketknife, only it would be —

The one I’m referring to is larger than the normal pocketknife.

It’s about this long and it folds up — you know —

In total length, it would be about maybe ten inches, with a blade of maybe four or five, and the handle four or five inches. And it would fold up.

Do you (Unintelligible) do you recall seeing a knife like that up there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: There was one — really big one.

Is that what you mean?

It was — it was like a regular pocketknife — you know — but it was bigger. 25

It was heavy.

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And it was hard to pull out —

SERGEANT McGANN: I see.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) pull it out.

That could have been it

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

Whose knife was that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum — I don’t remember.

I don’t think anybody really ever claimed anything as — you know — theirs.

SERGEANT McGANN: But, you recall seeing one of those, something like I’ve described to you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yes.

SERGEANT McGANN: How about bayonets?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You mean, guns with the thing that sticks up on it?

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, the bayonet sticks on the end of the rifle.

And you probably —

I don’t know if you know the difference between just a– I think you would know the difference between a — ah — a bayonet and just a regular hunting knife, because there is a difference.

In other words, the blade is, more or less, straight.

It would probably be somewhere between — between ten and fifteen inches long.

This would be the blade length.

Then, of course, there would be a grip on that or a handle.

Do you remember seeing any of those up there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: There could have been one.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I think there were more than that.

Supposedly, they brought about three or four of them right down from the Spahn Ranch.

Do you recall that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

I don’t recall seeing three or four of them.

SERGEANT McGANN: How many do you re- —

Do you recall seeing one?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I might have seen one go by.

I didn’t really — you know — size up all of them.

I just — you know — seen (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: The other girls said they went down and they would — ah —

They sharpened most of the knives, most of the regular knives.

Were you —

Did you participate in that?

Did you sharpen some of the knives up there (Unintelligible) edge (Unintelligible) the guys told you how to do it and you — you did it.

You did this part — sharpening.

Did you take part in the sharpening of the knives?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I tried once and I goofed, so they asked me to please refrain never (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you ruined them, huh?

You (Unintelligible) job (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I was making them dull.

SERGEANT McGANN: You were making them duller, huh?

What kind of knives were you sharpening?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Just the regular ones.

SERGEANT McGANN: Just — One of the hunting knives, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Was this one of the ones with the black handles that they got with the stolen credit cards?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It could have had a black handle.

I don’t know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Most of the ones I’ve seen had the black handles on them.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You’ve probably seen more than I have.

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum.

So, anyway, you —

Who — who did the sharpening, then, if you didn’t do it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Probably whoever was around.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who do you —

Who was doing it with you when you —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I was just doing them by myself.

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

Who else do you remember seeing, off the top of your head? Just —

Can you recall?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, was Manon there or Blustein or McCann?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

I never saw any of them.

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum.

How about Good? Sandra Good or Squeaky?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) no, I can’t —

It’s hard to try to remember individuals doing different things because — you know — everybody that was there’d just do something, and then just go on and do something (Unintelligible) but, I couldn’t actually remember to pinpoint anyone out.

SERGEANT McGANN: Whose cars did they use to drive around up there?

Whose — whose cars did they use to go off the Ranch when they wanted to leave the Ranch, Spahn Ranch that is?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, generally, anybody that’d loan us one.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who would generally loan you one?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — people that were just over.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, like who?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t remember, really.

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you remember a John Schwartz?

Did you use his car?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

We used it sometimes.

SERGEANT McGANN: What kind of car did he have?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I think it was all white.

SERGEANT McGANN: What — An all white car?

Was it a new car? An old car?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It would be one of them — not old, but not new.

Just an average car.

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’m — I’m not too sure if it was — what color it was, but I think it was all white.

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you remember what make it was?

Do you know whether it was a Chevrolet or a Dodge or a Ford or —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It was either a Chevy or a Ford.

SERGEANT McGANN: Either a Chevy or a Ford.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Because I — you know — I’d hear them (Unintelligible) about it, either a Chevy or a Ford.

It was a familiar name, but I don’t —

SERGEANT McGANN: Was it a two-door or a four-door?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — I think it was a two-door.

SERGEANT McGANN: So, you used his car, then, quite a bit, didn’t you, when you wanted to go off the Ranch —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum —

SERGEANT McGANN: — because it was available up there, right?

What other cars?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — the Studelac.

SERGEANT McGANN: The Studelac?

What’s that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: A Studebaker with a Cadillac engine.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who did that belong to?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It was ours for a while.

I think someone —

SERGEANT McGANN: Just the group’s, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — someone gave it to us.

Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: A Studebaker with a Cadillac engine.

I bet that went pretty good, didn’t it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — Huh-huh.

It — ah — I think it would heat-lock or —

SERGEANT McGANN: Vapor lock.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Vapor lock, if you went up the one side of the hill (Unintelligible) vapor lock.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, I see.

It’d kind of heat up a little bit?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’d be in the Summertime, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Would they take that off the Ranch when they wanted to go into town any?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You mean, would they drive it into town?

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

You know — That’s what they’d use for transportation.

What I’m saying is transportation from the Spahn Ranch going into the city when they wanted to go out and buy something.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s one of the cars they’d use.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yes.

SERGEANT McGANN: In other words, they’d use John Schwartz’s and — That’s the old either Chevy or Ford; and, then, they’d use this —

What’d they call it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Studelac.

SERGEANT McGANN: — Studelac. Yeah. Studebaker with a Cadillac engine.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Do you have a restroom I could use? I’d like to go to the bathroom.

SERGEANT McGANN: Ah — yeah.

Wait a minute. Yeah. Just a second.

I’ll get the Sarg in here and we’ll (Unintelligible) yeah, Sergeant — ah Leslie’d like to use the — ah — ladies room.

Fine. Thank you, Sergeant. Umhum. Bye.

Just a second, Leslie. She’ll be right in.

Coffee does you in, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

I just had a cup just a few minutes ago (Unintelligible) what’s a grand jury?

SERGEANT McGANN: I’ll tell you when you get back.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Okay. Come on. We’ll be (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay. Fine. Thanks (Unintelligible)

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Uh-huh (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) stand up for a minute.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Is that right (Unintelligible) you (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Where were we?

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum — That’s right.

We were — we were talking about cars.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: We’ve got John Schwartz’s car and we’ve got the Studelac and —

How about others?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum — I’m trying to remember.

SERGEANT McGANN: How about the dune buggies?

Did you go out — ah —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, no.

They were around and (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: All they — all they used those for was to get around the Ranch, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, to go into the mountains, cause they — they weren’t legal —

SERGEANT McGANN: Right.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — for the road.

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you know —

Do you remember Bob Beausoleil?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum?

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you remember Sadie Mae?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

I saw her at breakfast today.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, did you?

Talk to her?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No, a little hello’s —

SERGEANT McGANN: Did you — ah —

Mary Brunner? Remember her?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Sometime in the very first of

August, do you remember when Bobby and Sadie and Mary Brunner left (Unintelligible) the Ranch?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum — towards that time, a lot of the people were — you know — going out and coming back in little groups of —

SERGEANT McGANN: And who would that be?

Who — who would be the groups?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, I don’t —

SERGEANT McGANN: Who made up the groups?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — oh —

SERGEANT McGANN: You know — Who?

What individuals made up particular groups that you remember going out?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I remember I went out with — ah — ah — a girl named Kathy.

SERGEANT McGANN: Kathy?

Which Kathy is that?

There’s a couple of them.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: A blonde.

SERGEANT McGANN: Which blonde is that? One of the blondes that came down with you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: She was released.

SERGEANT McGANN: Would that be Lutesinger?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

I don’t remember her last name.

But, we went out for a while and — ah

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, I know who you mean.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know her last name.

SERGEANT McGANN: Marnie Reeves?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Is that — that the Katie — the Ka- — That’s Katie.

Diane Blustein?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Is that the Kathy you’re talking about?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh (Unintelligible) try Patty.

Look under there under Patty.

SERGEANT McGANN: P-a-t-t-y?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well — you know —

Oh, yeah, Baldwin. Linda — Linda (Unintelligible) Baldwin.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

SERGEANT McGANN: Is that the right one?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

This one was Kathy alias Patty, or Patty alias Kathy.

I’m not too sure.

SERGEANT McGANN: You gals used so many names, I don’t know.

I’ve probably got it here, but I don’t know if I have it listed that way (Unintelligible) anyway, you and Patty, also known as Kathy, went out.

Now, okay, what’d you do when you

went out, your — your group?

Just the two of you’d go out?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

We just got tired of it.

SERGEANT McGANN: Got kind of tired of the Ranch and wanted to get —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yes.

SERGEANT McGANN: — away for a while?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yes.

SERGEANT McGANN: How’d you get into town?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hitchhiked.

SERGEANT McGANN: Where did you go when you came (Unintelligible) into town?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — Hollywood.

SERGEANT McGANN: What’d you do down there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What did we do?

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Just bummed around.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, some of the girls would come into town and kind of snatch some — some — ah — credit cards and stuff like that.

Did you —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: — get some of those?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: But, you knew the girls that were doing it (Unintelligible) do that, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well —

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) credit cards.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — I was aware that there were credit cards.

SERGEANT McGANN: Because we know Sadie was (Unintelligible) some of the credit cards.

She’d go into town and get the credit cards and stuff like that and buy stuff with the cards that they already had.

You — you knew that.

Then, they’d go in with these —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, I knew (Unintelligible) that they were being used.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

And did you go and use some of them?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I went up once and — ah — I didn’t never sign my name, but I got arrested for it.

SERGEANT McGANN: You did, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: Why was that?

How’d that come about?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — I went to Broadway with — ah — Nancy Pitman and we got a (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — we’d take five of those and two of these — and it was pretty obvious, so we got arrested.

SERGEANT McGANN: What’d you —

Did you have a credit card?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I didn’t, no.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did Nancy?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Whose credit card was it?

Do you remember that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: When — when was that?

When did that happen that you got arrested?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That was September.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, that was after the Spahn Ranch raid?

Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yes.

SERGEANT McGANN: Just Broadway?

Is that the only place you ever went with one of the credit cards?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: But, you were aware that the other girls were doing it quite a bit?

You knew they were going out (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, you have to be pretty stupid not to know there’s a lot of extra merchandise piling in.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

Well, that — that was the conversation, too, I think around the — around the — the (Unintelligible) a lot of conversation said.

We know — we know this. So —

And this was part of the conversation, that they were getting all that stuff from stolen credit cards.

At any rate, during the — ah — these groups — when you and — and Nancy went out, who else made up groups that went out?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum —

SERGEANT McGANN: This’d be in — in — in the latter part of July and the first of August.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — it’s hard to think because you’d always just switch off — you know — never any — I mean — specific thing.

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Whoever felt like going would probably just get up and go.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, let’s talk about Mary Brunner and Sadie Mae and — ah — Bobby, then — you know — Beausoleil.

They left the very early part of August, right around the first of August.

And they went out on a — on a job,

They were sent out by Charlie.

Now, tell me what you know about that.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Not too much.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you know they were supposed to go out and get money from this guy.Charlie and Bobby and Sadie said about Hinman?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — not too much; because, like I was saying, at that time, I was laid up.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

That’d be the very first of August.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: So, you were still a little bit under the weather, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yes.

I was — you know — it —

SERGEANT McGANN: Of course, it was more in the middle of — I mean — the mid-part of July, and then, in July, that you were really under the weather.

Right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I was out.

But, when that — when that particular thing happened, I remember my leg was hard to walk on, because I wanted — you know — I wanted to, more or less, know what was going on.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah. Right.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And I’d always want to hobble around a little bit to — you know — see what was going on and I couldn’t because my leg would lock.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And I would drag along.

SERGEANT McGANN: It must have really messed you up, huh?

I mean, really — for a while?

Did your leg really —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s rough — that’s a (Unintelligible) kill some people.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, I know it does.

I was taking it easy.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

Did you ever go to a doctor with it at all?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

SERGEANT McGANN: You never did?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

During the — ah — Someone looked at it, finally.

I think it was during the raid here.

But, it was all right. It just —

SERGEANT McGANN: During the Spahn Ranch (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

It just swelled up to about —

My knee just swelled up to about there and I had a lot of poison in me.

And then, it just went down after quite a while.

SERGEANT McGANN: But, still, it was painful?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, to walk on it, it was incredibly painful.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah. Uh-huh.

Well, anyway, you — you — if you can remember, what — what was the exact conversation that you overheard between Charlie and — and — and — ah — Bobby and Sadie and Mary?

There may have been different conversations between the — the four of them.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I never heard any actual conversations.

But, I had heard that the three of them went to visit Gary.

SERGEANT McGANN: Gary who?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hinman.

But, I —

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, Gary Hinman.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — didn’t know his name at that time. They just went to visit —

SERGEANT McGANN: You overheard —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — some guy in Topanga Canyon (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: — named Gary, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, and I didn’t know him, so I didn’t pay no attention.

SERGEANT McGANN: All right.

Well, then, they went up there and they — they had —

Apparently, they tried to get his money.

I believe he picked them up at the Ranch.

Is that right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I wouldn’t know.

SERGEANT McGANN: You don’t know, huh?

You have no way of knowing this?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: You — you never heard any conversation or mentioned that or anything?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you know that Sadie and Bobby and — and Mary, they went up there to Hinman and they kind of knocked him around a little bit trying to have him tell where the money was.

You know about that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I heard that they — that they had killed him.

That’s what the detectives told me.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

But, I want to know what you heard about it, what you, yourself, heard about it.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh.

SERGEANT McGANN: I mean, from the Ranch, from the people at the Ranch, from that group.

I don’t care what the coppers told you.

But, I want to know what the —

But, I want to know what the — what the group said.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Nothing really. I really —

They came back and — ah — then we went up to the cave; but, I never — It was —

Nothing was ever really said about it.

Because, when they came back, the police were going to come — were coming to the house, so we went up to a cave.

Then, after that, everything just sort of spread apart.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: So, I — you know — I never actually heard anything.

SERGEANT McGANN: — when you say that “they came back”, who came back?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I remember seeing Mary.

SERGEANT McGANN: Mary?

Remember Sadie?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: And Bobby?

Do you remember (Unintelligible) do you remember them coming back in a foreign car, I mean a car that was foreign to the group up there, and it upset Charlie a little bit?

Do you remember that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I remember — ah — that — that — ah — there were a couple of cars that I’d never seen before outside the ranch house.

SERGEANT McGANN: What kind of cars were they?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — one was a bus.

SERGEANT McGANN: Bus?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: III

SERGEANT McGANN: What was it, some kind of a school bus like, or a little bus (Unintelligible) car?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You know one of them little — ah — camper buses it looked like.

SERGEANT McGANN: Camper bus?

Did it have stuff in it that you could go camping with it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, I didn’t look inside.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh.

But, that’s the type it was, huh? I mean — ah —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It looked like it.

SERGEANT McGANN: You didn’t see the inside, so you wouldn’t know.

Would it be like a VW bus — you know — a Volkswagen?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, that type.

SERGEANT McGANN: What was the other car?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: A small compact. One of the — you know — compacts.

SERGEANT McGANN: Compacts.

What color was it, the small car?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Green.

It was at night, so I really didn’t see it too well.

SERGEANT McGANN: This is when they got back to the Ranch, was at night?

Did you know what car (Unintelligible) up there (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, was I — I don’t know when they got back at the Ranch, but that’s when I saw the cars.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, I see.

That’s the first time you had — had seen the cars.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yes.

I don’t — I don’t remember —

SERGEANT McGANN: Had you seen them?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — when they came back (Unintelligible) no.

I — I was in the back of the — You — you know, the back (Unintelligible) I was back there.

SERGEANT McGANN: I see.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: So, see, I missed out on a lot that was going on at the front part.

They could have come back in the morning or they could have come back any old time —

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — and I wouldn’t have known it.

SERGEANT McGANN: So, then, anyway, do you remember the co- — the color of the bus?

Do you remember what color it was?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

It might have been sprayed a bunch of different colors.

But, I — you know — I don’t remember.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Do you remember Charlie getting a little upset that it was brought back to the Ranch, the two cars were brought back?

What was said about that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, I don’t remember him getting upset.

See, the only times I actually saw everyone together was at dinner; because, at that time, it was a long walk from the farmhouse to the front end.

It was a long way.

So, I stayed behind and I’d help with dinner.

Then, everyone would come down at dinner and we’d clean and — you know — nothing was ever really said.

So, I don’t ever remember him getting upset.

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum. Okay.

So, you say you went to the cave.

Now, who went up there to the cave?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum — the girls.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who?

Sadie and you and Mary?

Who else?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Just about all of us.

SERGEANT McGANN: All the girls, huh?

This is after you saw the — the bus and the small compact car.

And then (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: They — they couldn’t —

Yes. Yes.

I remember — ah — we had it —

See, we had it fixed up so that there was a phone at the main thing and a phone at the farmhouse.

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And then, we were sleeping — all of us that were sleeping — and the phone rang and, so, we went up to the cave.

SERGEANT McGANN: What’d this phone ringing signify? That somebody was coming or —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: What — what was the — what was —

Was there conversation, then, on the phone about something?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — I was asleep.

All I — all I remember is I was asleep in there and we — ah — somebody said — ah —

“Get up and cross the creek.”

So, I (Unintelligible) across the creek.

SERGEANT McGANN: You and who else?

Who else went with you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — just the usual girls.

SERGEANT McGANN: Sadie was there, I assume.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I think I remember her there, but I couldn’t tell you for sure.

SERGEANT McGANN: Mary Brunner? Was she there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — yeah, I think Mary was there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Manon?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum.

SERGEANT McGANN: Pitman and McCann?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: All the girls, huh, were more or less —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yes.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) okay.

Well —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Sort of known as the general group.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah. Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, just the general group.

SERGEANT McGANN: All right.

The general group, they were all there and — ah

All right.

Did Charlie tell Bobby to do something with the cars, one of the cars — to get it out of the thing?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — I don’t know if Charlie told him or not, but one —

Bobby came in, one day, and just said — ah —

“I’m going somewhere.”

And this was sort of natural for him.

SERGEANT McGANN: He didn’t take one of these cars that were there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’m pretty sure — I think he took the compact.

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

Did you see it again?

I mean, do you remember what color it was?

Did you see it again later that —

When you saw it that night, it was dark.

But, did you see it again, then?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I — I might have seen it.

It could have been white.

SERGEANT McGANN: It could have been white.

Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I know it was a lighter color, but I’m pretty sure it was white.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

White you think.

And how about the V- — the bus?

We don’t know if it’s a VW bus or not, but did you ever see that thing again?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — I don’t think so.

SERGEANT McGANN: And Bobby just said he was going away.

Did you see him drive off in the — in the compact car, the white car?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I didn’t actually see him drive off, but I remember he said — ah —

“Get me a sleeping bag.”

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And it — There was —

He had this eagle that we’d been embroidering for him.

And he said:

“And get me that.”

Because I had been embroidering on it until he was going somewhere.

So, I got him the sleeping bag and I gave him the eagle.

And then, he just took off.

He left the farmhouse.

But, I didn’t actually see him drive off.

SERGEANT McGANN: But, the next thing you knew, the — the small compact car was gone?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I didn’t see it after that.

SERGEANT McGANN: You didn’t see it after that.

And it had been there before that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’d been sitting out front that night.

SERGEANT McGANN: Was Bobby a pretty nice guy?

Apparently, all the —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: — most all the girls thought Bobby was a pretty nice guy.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Very easy to get along with and kind of nice to the girls and all that stuff.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

He was real nice.

SERGEANT McGANN: He was, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Now about the other guys?

Were they pretty nice to the girls, or were they kind of — kind of hard-nosed?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

They all treated us real good.

SERGEANT McGANN: They all treated you good, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Sure they did, because, well, we did everything for them.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, Bobby must have been kind of a favorite, though, because most — most of the girls that I’ve talked to kind of thought that Bobby was a little

bit nicer than the other guy — other guys — a little bit.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum — yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did you think that, too?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: They were all pretty much the same.

SERGEANT McGANN: Pretty much the same.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I kind of liked Clem the best.

SERGEANT McGANN: You liked Clem?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: How come you like Clem?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: He’s fun to be with.

He was a — He was just —

He’s a fun guy to be with.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, what — what’s he —

You mean, it was just personality like and stuff?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Is he a kidder or what?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

He’s a guy that’s really happy.

SERGEANT McGANN: Not too many worries, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

He was in Camarillo for a while there.

SERGEANT McGANN: He was?

What was the matter with him?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum — I don’t know.

I think it was because he was he was sort of insane.

SERGEANT McGANN: You think he is, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, that’s —

I don’t– I think he’s a nice guy, but the authorities thought he was a little touched in the noggin.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did he ever talk about it any?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Camarillo?

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

Did he ever talk about why he had gone there and why —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, indecent exposure, I think.

He’d been playing around with some kids.

He left for a while (Unintelligible) the next thing we knew, he was in Camarillo.

SERGEANT McGANN: You mean — you mean left from the Ranch?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yes.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, I see.

And somebody went up there and helped get him out, come and picked him up in a car and brought him back to the Ranch.

Right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, he was gone for a long time.

And then, we were camping in Devil’s Canyon and — ah — I just saw him there one night.

So, I figured either they let him out or he’d climbed over the fence, or something.

But, he was there.

SERGEANT McGANN: All right. Okay.

So, what was said about them killing Hinman?

They did a good job and this — and they were up there for a couple of days.

During the time that they —

After they left, there was a phone call back to the Ranch.

Right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum — I heard something about — that Bobby had called.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who’d you hear that from?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t remember.

There was a lot of easy talk going on in the kitchen.

SERGEANT McGANN: Was it Manson that had answered the call from Bobby?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know.

SERGEANT McGANN: I mean — or Charlie left for a while.

Right?

I think Clem (Unintelligible) did, too.

Charlie left the Ranch for a little bit, then, after that phone call?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It was a big secret while —

SERGEANT McGANN: No. Well, but, I mean, he went to the Hinman place —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh.

SERGEANT McGANN: — for a little bit?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: He could have, but I — I couldn’t say for sure.

SERGEANT McGANN: Because you didn’t hear any conversation about it at all?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: How about any —

Did he speak of writing on the walls at the Hinman place after he got back?

I mean, you were up there with Sadie and Mary Brunner, after the deal went down.

What did Sadie and Mary have to say about it?

I mean, they didn’t just come back there and — and keep quiet about it.

They said (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, they did.

SERGEANT McGANN: What did they say?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

They were pretty quiet, maybe a little jumpy.

SERGEANT McGANN: What’d they say on it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Nothing that I can remember.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, now, you’re spoofing me a little bit on that, Leslie, because I think they talked about it.

And I know that —

I’m pretty sure they did, in fact, because I’ve got some people that told me they did.

But, what — what do you remember about it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum — well, not much.

They didn’t say hardly nothing.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Tell me what they did say about it.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: They didn’t say anything that they did to Gary.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

What’d they say after that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I didn’t ask.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, but they —

You didn’t have to ask. They’d be telling.

I know that, now.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: (Unintelligible) for sure (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: They were just —

They were kind of talking about it.

Now, I know they were.

So, I know you were there and I know you heard something.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You probably know it already, too.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I’d like to hear it from you.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: (Unintelligible) I can’t say that I don’t, but I (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That — Just that it had gotten a little —

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: (Unintelligible) well, good (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — a little touchy.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Well, why don’t you —

Tell me what they said. Tell me what they said.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I didn’t actually hear any distinct things —

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, just tell me what you —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — cause it was — you know — sort of like — psst-psst-psst — and I wasn’t in on the other side of the — psst-psst-psst.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, they weren’t all that quiet.

I know some girls that were there that heard a couple of things, but — ah — And they weren’t one of the ones that was being whispered to.

It was kind of just — It was out in the open.

You were up there. You were one —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I knew that they had written on the walls.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

What did they write on the walls?

What’d they say about writing on the walls?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: They said that they had written “Pig” on the wall.

SERGEANT McGANN: Just “Pig”? Just “Pig”?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That’s what I remember.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who had written that?

Who said that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — I don’t know who writ- –who wrote it.

SERGEANT McGANN: Are you sure that you didn’t overhear that Sadie had said she had written it, or did she just say, “We had written it”?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I just heard it was written.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) did she say that she had stabbed — stabbed Hinman?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh, not that I heard.

See, I didn’t hear any of those three talking about it, but I — I heard people talking, so I asked them.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Well, what — what did you ask them, or what did they say?

I mean, the people that you asked about what they were talking about.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: They said that — ah — that he was dead —

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — and that — ah — the word “Pig” was written on the wall.

SERGEANT McGANN: All right.

They said that Hinman was dead and that they had — the word “Pig” was written on the wall.

Now, what else did they say that they had heard from Sadie and Mary about the thing?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Not much.

I don’t even think I remember any more.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, did they say anything about Charlie coming up there and smacking the guy upside the head with that sword he used all the time?

Anything —

Did they say anything about that?

That was kind of the talk of the place.

Everybody was talking about that.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Ever hear anything like that?

Aw, I think you’re putting me on a little bit, Leslie.

Huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No, I haven’t (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, yeah.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: I — I think you’re putting me on now.

I think we’ve really ought to level with each other. Ah —

As I told you before, you were — you were given immunity.

I mean, nothing’s going to happen to you — you know?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: You don’t have anything to be afraid — afraid of.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: You want to get out of all this stuff, don’t you, get out on the street again, one of these days?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, then, I really and truly think you ought to lay things on the line and I don’t think you’re quite doing that, right now.

Hum?

Some of these people are in really big trouble already on this, I mean really big trouble.

I mean — you know — like they’ve already had it, so to speak.

And as I told you when I came in, we’re just trying to fit the other little pieces in together.

And to do that, we need your help.

And for that help, we are willing to give you immunity in any part that you might have taken and — ah — get you out of here at the conclusion of it.

Now, that’s our deal.

I — And — ah —

That’s the only thing I can promise you.

I’m promising you the — the whole works here.

You’re just a free gal when this thing’s all worked out.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: And, again, I — I know you know a lot about it.

So, why don’t you just tell me what you heard and what you know about it?

Huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Why not?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Because I don’t want to.

SERGEANT McGANN: You know a lot about it, Leslie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: You do, too.

You know the whole works.

I don’t know what else I can — ah — can offer you.

There’s a — There is a reward from one of the — one of the murders that took place — actually five — when five people were killed.

And I know who went out on that, too — pretty much, I think.

I know at least three of them and I think there were two more.

And I’m talking about the Tate murders — Tate, Sharon, and — Sharon Tate and the other four people.

We know that the group there was involved in it.

We’re — we’re positive of that — ah

On that particular group of murders, there’s a twenty-five-thousand-dollar reward for information.

I don’t know if you’re interested in the money, or not, but you shouldn’t — certainly shouldn’t just turn away from it — from that.

Anyway, we do have people — A lot of people have talked already and told us a lot of things, and that’s the reason we’re going up there, to Independence, and that’s the reason for talking to you girls.

Okay?

There is no more Family.

It’s all broken up.

Charlie isn’t going to get out anymore.

So, in addition to that, we have the other murder — two murders — the couple that was murdered (Unintelligible) we know about Shorty.

So, as I say, we know a lot of things, but we need to be filled in on a few things and I think you’re the girl that can help us out.

Correct?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, it could be.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I know it can be — not can be. It is, Leslie.

A little crystal ball that says:

“This girl can tell me all about it.”

Have you ever had a crystal ball?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Have I ever read one?

SERGEANT McGANN: No.

Have you ever read one?

SERGEANT McGANN: No.

Have you ever had one?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I looked through it once.

SERGEANT McGANN: You did, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: What’d you see?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Everything upside down.

SERGEANT McGANN: Everything upside down, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: Tell me about Terry Melcher.

Remember him?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Terry Marshmallow.

SERGEANT McGANN: Mel- — Melcher. Terry Melcher, Melcher.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I call him Terry Marshmallow.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, is that what you call him?

That was your name, huh?

Marshmallow, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: All right.

Tell me about Marshmallow.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: He was going to record us.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, that was when Charlie tried to play a guitar, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And we sang.

SERGEANT McGANN: You sang, huh?

Who was the group, then?

Who was the group going to be?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum — well, they hadn’t really decided on a name, yet.

SERGEANT McGANN: You hadn’t decided, huh?

Well, who was going to be part of the group?

Charlie and you were going to sing and who else?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Everybody.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, the whole group, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

It was like — ah — a choir.

SERGEANT McGANN: A choir, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: When did you first see Terry out there at the place?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh — oh (Unintelligible) well, we were at the dump.

SERGEANT McGANN: The dump, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Do you —

You know, like time? I am so screwed up with even —

Let’s see, it — it wasn’t the rainy season because we had been in the house during the rainy season —

SERGEANT McGANN: This was last winter, right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No. No.

The winter, we were in the desert.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, no Wait a minute.

That was late Fall. That was Christmas, New Year’s.

SERGEANT McGANN: Right.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Then, through the rainy season, we were in at a house.

Then, we went from the house — Where’d we go from the house? — to the —

We might have gone to the dump.

SERGEANT McGANN: Where’s the dump?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, it was — It looked like a dump then, but we cleaned it up.

It was a (Unintelligible) Spahn’s —

SERGEANT McGANN: Spahn’s, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — on the other side of the corrals —

SERGEANT McGANN: Right.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — where those great, big semitrailers are.

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: We were living there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But — And that, it could have either —

It was either late Spring or early Summer, I would say was the first time I actually met Terry.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Well —

And he was going to record the group there, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That’s what he said.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s what he said, huh?

Who’d he go up with —

Who’d he go out with? What girl did he kind of take a liking to up there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, gosh, I don’t — I don’t know.

I don’t think he particularly took a liking or actually went out with anybody.

SERGEANT McGANN: He kind of liked — What’s her name? Nancy? — didn’t he a little bit? — Pitman?

Or McCann?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: He did?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, what do you think?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know, because, see — ah — the only times I saw him, he — I was already down at the circle.

We had a little campsite with a tent and a campfire and — ah — we were just sitting around in a circle and he just came down.

And I didn’t actually see him ever — you know —

He could have.

I spent most of my time at the dump, then, and he could have been at the main part of the Ranch — you know carrying on (Unintelligible) one of the girls or something.

But, I really couldn’t tell you.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did you ever go up to his house?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Did I?

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: The one in Malibu?

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’ve been — I went to visit him one evening; yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: One evening up at the house in Malibu, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, but we couldn’t find the doorbell.

SERGEANT McGANN: You couldn’t find the doorbell?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

I went with — ah — Nancy and Manon.

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But, we — we were just going to go visit and we couldn’t find the doorbell, so we decided that we’d leave (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: It’s right by the beach. It’s right close to the beach.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It’s on it.

SERGEANT McGANN: It’s on the beach, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: A great, big house across from the liquor store.

SERGEANT McGANN: When was this?

When did you go there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — Right after I got out of jail for burglary.

So, that would be, I think, towards the end of September, maybe the beginning of October.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I think we’ve pinned it down pretty much that you first saw him around the first of Summer?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

I’ve — I’ve only actually seen Terry about maybe three times.

He — he came to the Ranch maybe — I don’t know — three times.

SERGEANT McGANN: What kind of car does he drive?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, I never saw it.

I was at the campsite when he came and left.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh.

Did you ever go up to the house there on the hill — up on a hill?

Did you ever go to the house looking for him?

Did you ever hear him talk about the house on the hill?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did Charlie ever talk about it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

The most I ever heard mentioned about Terry was — ah — this guy by the name of Greg (Unintelligible) Greg —

SERGEANT McGANN: Greg?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

There’s a Greg mentioned.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, Greg would come over to our house — you know — and go — you know —

“Now, Terry Marshmallow –” — you — I mean —

“Terry Melcher will come over and listen to you and I’m sure he’ll record you.”

And, for months, Greg would come over and go:

“Now, Terry Melcher’s coming over –”

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, this Greg — I don’t know — He’s the one with the little sports car, either blue or black.

Remember that little sports car?

Is that the Greg?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: One of them — ah — richer Hollywood cars that are — you know — just sort of a — the regular Hollywood car.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: He came with a girl, too, didn’t he, when he came over this Greg?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I believe he came by himself.

SERGEANT McGANN: By himself?

Maybe I’m thinking of another (Unintelligible) did you hear Charlie ever tell — say that he’d gone up to see Melcher or was up to the house or anything?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum — sometimes, when we were really interested in — you know — putting on the music — ah — when he would go and visit Greg and then — you know — he could have gone over there.

But, I don’t remember actually him saying, “I went to visit Terry Melcher.”

SERGEANT McGANN: Was this Greg a — ah — kind of a producer or a record man, or what?

What did he do?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know really.

I knew that he said he could get us recorded and that he had known one of the Beach Boys, or he knows — you know — knew one of the Beach Boys.

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And just from the way I gathered it, all in all, he was in the record business, but I don’t know actually what he did.

I remember he was a lot of talk.

SERGEANT McGANN: What’d he have to say?

What were some of the things he said?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I love the eyes of the dreamer.

“Oh, it’ll be a million seller. All of this — That’ll be a million seller as soon as I can get Terry Melcher to –”

You know — This and that. This and that.

It was always:

“Terry Melcher this” and “Terry Melcher that.”

But, never —

He finally, after about three or four months, Terry Melcher came over.

And then, he brought another guy with him.

And then, they supposedly had some sort of an equipment by truck or something they were going to record it.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who was this other guy? Do you remember his name?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No, I don’t remember.

SERGEANT McGANN: Was he a singer (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

His —

SERGEANT McGANN: — of any magnitude or anything.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — his bag was having a — a recording studio inside of a truck.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, I see.

So, he’d get out and (Unintelligible) huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, well, so that he could record in natural surroundings, or something. I don’t know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Get the echoes and all that stuff.

And then, after that, neither of them were seen ‘anymore.

They didn’t come — You know — They didn’t come around.

SERGEANT McGANN: Was Charlie kind of upset with all that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

Charlie hardly never got upset, as far as I could tell.

SERGEANT McGANN: Not too much, huh?

Tell me what you heard about the Tate murders up there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Not much.

SERGEANT McGANN: I know you heard quite a bit — ah — Leslie, and all that (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: We’re just going to keep coming right back to this.

SERGEANT McGANN: I know it.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Two —

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s right.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — two detectives and I kept this up for three hours one time (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, yeah, I know (Unintelligible) it’s very important.

I mean, we know how (Unintelligible) because, I think you can tell probably (Unintelligible) because people will talk to us.

And I know you know an awful lot, Leslie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’m deaf. I can’t hear nothing.

SERGEANT McGANN: No, no.

You heard a lot.

Now, there’s the thing:

Five people were killed up there on that deal and I know three for sure that went up there, and I think I know the fourth, and I don’t know the fifth.

And I know pretty much just how it went down, and they were from your group out there.

Now, I don’t know — Are your parents still alive?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah I really couldn’t tell you.

SERGEANT McGANN: You really don’t know?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: You have no feeling for them, at all?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, I love them, but —

SERGEANT McGANN: Would you want to see them, for no reason at all, just no reason at all (Unintelligible) somebody went, thinking he was doing the right thing, go up there and kill them — kill your parents or your brothers or sisters, if you — if you have any?

Do you think that’s right, really when you —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

SERGEANT McGANN: No. You don’t think it’s right.

I mean, if you were ever a kid — start a family and went up to some house and live, there with your husband and children, if you had any, do you think it would be right for somebody to come up there and just for no reason at all — and you didn’t do a thing to these people — come up and stab you and cut you and kill you, your husband and your children?

Do you think that would be right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I don’t either.

And that’s exactly what happened.

And you know that as well as I do.

But, you know better than I do.

But, you know exactly who did it and exactly how it went down, because they talked of this, Leslie.

They talked of it after they came back to the Spahn Ranch and they talked about it up there at Barker Ranch.

And I know you know about it and I don’t — I don’t think that you — ah I mean, you’ve told me that you don’t think this is right and I don’t think it is either.

But, Charlie may have thought he was right, but I think you can see, yourself, that the man needs help if he thinks this is the right thing to do because it’s not.

You’re a smart girl.

You know it’s not the — it’s not the right thing to do.

I’m not saying that Charlie maybe didn’t think he was doing the right thing.

Maybe he did, but I don’t think it was the right thing to do and you don’t either.

Now, maybe — maybe he does need help.

I don’t know.

I’m sure that the psychiatrists and everybody else will examine him, because if he — he’s — he’s blind, otherwise, and some other ones too.

I know that you know them.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Who are they?

SERGEANT McGANN: You tell me.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I couldn’t tell you.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, you can.

Again, Leslie, you’re not — you’re not being honest with me.

You’re not telling me the whole truth.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What happened to Christopher Jesus?

SERGEANT McGANN: Christopher Jesus?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Zero.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, Zero was — was ah — I don’t know if he was one that got killed or not.

There were about three of them killed — you know —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Who?

SERGEANT McGANN: You know Tinerelli?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Who?

SERGEANT McGANN: Tinerelli?

Do you know him?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) what was his first name?

SERGEANT McGANN: I don’t remember offhand. He was part of the group, anyway (Unintelligible) two or three of them did.

But, none of the ones that were involved in the murders are dead.

They’re all alive.

So, why — why — ah — why — why are you holding back?

Tell me that (Unintelligible) you know — I’m pretty sure you know.

We can just sit here and I’ll — You can tell me that —

I’m sure you know what happened.

You’ll say that much, won’t you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I got a pretty good idea.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

You’ve got a pretty good idea of what happened, who was involved, and how it went down, with little details as to how it went down.

Why don’t you want to talk about it?

It might do you good to get it — to tell it to somebody, don’t you think?

I think it would.

You’re carrying around a lot of — a lot of stuff.

There’s people that go crazy carrying around what you know, Leslie — really.

It’s got to — got to be on your mind.

It’s got to be on your mind, night and day, isn’t it?

Hum?

It is, isn’t it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum — Maybe.

SERGEANT McGANN: No, none of that “maybe” jazz, huh?

It is.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ohh — I don’t —

SERGEANT McGANN: You know — you know darn good and well it is now.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I told Mr. Patchett I’d call him if I changed my mind.

I haven’t changed my mind yet.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I’ve got a lot of time.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

What’s this grand jury thing?

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, at the grand jury, we’re going to have a little hearing.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: When?

SERGEANT McGANN: Like — oh — about a week or two weeks, I guess. Either one or two weeks about.

But, I’ve been working on the on the Tate murders for three and a half months since it went down August the 9th.

I was up there at the scene and I saw the — the bodies all there, all five dead people, and they didn’t look too good.

And Sharon Tate, she was pregnant, pretty far along. But, that didn’t make any difference.

They stabbed the dickens out of her, too.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: (Unintelligible) yeah (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: They stabbed the other three guys or the other two guys and the girl, Abigail. She was cut pretty bad.

And then, a young boy, they killed him for no reason at all.

If you had happened to have been up there and hadn’t been a member of the Spahn Ranch, they’d have killed you, too — or me, or anyone else — for no reason.

I mean, if you get mad at somebody, you have a reason for killing them. That’s one thing —

You know and really get mad at somebody and — ah in a — in a fit of rage, you might kill them — maybe.

That’s one thing.

But, to go up there and just to kill five people for nothing — no reason whatsoever — it’s not right.

And this is — and you know it’s — it’s not right and you know who was there and you know how they did it — exactly how they did it — and, yet, for some reason, unknown to me, you don’t want to talk about it.

Why not?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I just don’t. I don’t want to do nothing.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you’re going to have to talk about it some day, Leslie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, not today.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, it doesn’t make any difference whether it’s today —

I mean, I might prefer it today than later.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum. I know it.

You guys would have preferred it the first day I talked to you.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, they weren’t really — they weren’t handling the Tate case.

They were handling another case.

But, it’s boiled down to the fact that — ah — we know just about what went on and we (Unintelligible) I’m (Unintelligible) leveling with you.

We don’t know every detail and you do and I’d like to know.

That’s all. That’s all.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But, I don’t want to tell you.

SERGEANT McGANN: But, that’s all I’m asking you for.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, I know it.

SERGEANT McGANN: Why did you leave the Spahn Ranch and go up to Barker for?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Why?

Because I liked it.

SERGEANT McGANN: All right.

But, you just didn’t go alone.

You went with the whole group that went up there.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: How’d you go up?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: How’d I get up there?

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: In a — ah Volkswagen.

SERGEANT McGANN: Whose Volkswagen?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t remember the girl’s name. She’d just come to the Ranch the day I got out of jail.

SERGEANT McGANN: That was for the —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Burglary.

SERGEANT McGANN: — burglary (Unintelligible) well, you went, and who else was in the car with you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — Tex, Marnie, Jeanine and — ah — a new girl — a new girl.

SERGEANT McGANN: The one whose Volkswagen it was?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: There was Tex and Marnie and you and the new girl.

It’s just a regular little small VW?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: A little bug?
Okay.

And who else was in the group?

Any of those other cars going at the same ‘time?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

It was just us.

SERGEANT McGANN: Just you, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum

SERGEANT McGANN: You went in the back way of the Ranch, the Barker Ranch, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) over a wash.

SERGEANT McGANN: You went up (Unintelligible) wash?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Walked it.

SERGEANT McGANN: You walked it, huh?

Where did you leave the Volkswagen?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — let’s see — Tex and the new girl went back, I believe —

SERGEANT McGANN: You mean and — ah —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — to L. A.

And me and Marnie walked up to the (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: You and Marnie walked up, huh?

It’s a good walk.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh (Unintelligible) yeah. I love it.

SERGEANT McGANN: It’s a nice drive.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Did you go up it?

SERGEANT McGANN: Sure.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Whew — It scares me.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’d rather walk it.

You drove it yourself?

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What’d you drive it in?

SERGEANT McGANN: Jeep.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Scout?

SERGEANT McGANN: When you got up to the top of the wash, who was there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — Paul (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) who else?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Paul (Unintelligible) the little one

SERGEANT McGANN: Preston? Preston?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It could be.

SERGEANT McGANN: Preston’s the name of the person (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know last names at all.

And — ah (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Brooks. Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And Senor Juan.

SERGEANT McGANN: Senor Juan, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: Was Charlie there, yet?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: He wasn’t at the Ranch.

SERGEANT McGANN: He wasn’t at Barker yet, huh?

How about Bruce?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No. Huh-huh.

In fact, I don’t even hardly —

In fact, I don’t even think I saw Bruce in the desert the whole time I was there.

SERGEANT McGANN: How about Clem?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

Clem was there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Clem was there.

He was already up there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Not at the Barker’s. They were camping somewhere.

But, we went to the Barker’s so that we could (Unintelligible) the rest of the people. That was (Unintelligible) ah — a place where you could go.

And then, whoever — you know — happened to drop by the Barker’s, we’d take — you know — the people to the camp.

SERGEANT McGANN: The camp, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Which was usually some insane place.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) out of the way spots, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, searching for water.

SERGEANT McGANN: Not much water up there?

Is it hard to get?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, it’s hard to get.

In fact, I’m — I’m a very unsuccessful Indian scout.

SERGEANT McGANN: You are, huh?

Was the bus already up there when you got there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, the bus?

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, the bus came up there last year.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, I know it.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, it was there.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s what I’m talking about.

It came up not too long before — before you got there, didn’t it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I was there before the bus was there.

SERGEANT McGANN: You got there before the bus arrived.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’d been up — I was up there twice.

SERGEANT McGANN: I mean, this year. I’m talking about when you went up there after your bust for burglary (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, the bus’s been there for a year.

SERGEANT McGANN: For a whole year? The big bus with all the clothing in it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Ah —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Sure.

SERGEANT McGANN: — it came down and then it went back up, didn’t it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Down? Huh-huh.

That thing was damaged and I think its tired were ruined.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, after it got up there.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

It — ah — could only make one trip.

They moved it — Paul moved it.

It used to be right in front of the house.

He could have taken it down without us knowing about it, but — — but, he’d sure be a fool for doing that.

Why, wasn’t it there when you were there?

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum. It was. It sure was.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, that was (Unintelligible) days.

SERGEANT McGANN: What’s that? When you took it up there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I wasn’t — I wasn’t with them.

I was living up there and people would come and go and I was just sort of like a housemaid or something up there — you know — I just stayed there all the time.

And one day, that bus came up. I couldn’t believe it.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s a pretty big bus to get up there.

They came up the back way from Shoshone,

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s a pretty bad way, too, though, isn’t it (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, I know.

There’s one rock part that is just too much.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who brought that up?

Who drove it up there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — I think Mary.

SERGEANT McGANN: Mary? Mary? Which one?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Brunner.

SERGEANT McGANN: Brunner?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You can’t beat a driver like Mary.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, really? She’s a good driver, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: I’ll be darned.

How about Tex? Did he ever drive it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: The big green bus?

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: He could have when it was in the city.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, when did — ah — you next see Tex and the new girl and Charlie?

When did they come up to the Ranch, the Barker Ranch, after they left you off?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I saw Charles right away or — you know — after he got there — within the next day.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did he arrive up there or was he already there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: He was already there.

SERGEANT McGANN: He was already there.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And then — ah — it must have been almost close to a week before I saw Tex again.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did he bring anybody up with him that time?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: The new girl.

SERGEANT McGANN: Just the new girl.

What was her name?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t remember.

SERGEANT McGANN: Was she arrested with the group?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: Or is she still up there, or is she was she in jail up there, or (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: They released her.

SERGEANT McGANN: Released her?

Completely?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

As far as I know, they released about five within the next day, I think.

Most of them were new girls that they released.

SERGEANT McGANN: What new girls (Unintelligible) up there.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I haven’t even seen some.

SERGEANT McGANN: You haven’t seen some of them?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

I don’t even know where they came from.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You got a match (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Yes.

Just about burnt my hand here. Oh, boy.

Well, Leslie, we’re kind of at a stalemate here, I guess, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: I know you know all about them and you know you know all about them.

Right? Hum?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Could be.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, come on, you can give me a yes or no to that, can’t ynu?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, my memory fails a lot.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, but — ah — it might fail you a little bit, but I’ve got a feeling that you know all about what I want to know, and you’ve already actually kind of halfway said you did.

It’s just that you haven’t decided just when you want to tell me, apparently.

Right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t really think I could tell you anything you don’t already know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Like I told you, I think you can give me some of the details.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know all the details.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, tell me about what you do know (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You already know what I know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, no.

Tell me about what the preparations were when they went up to the Tate case — Tate house.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Preparations?

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

What weapons they took.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I couldn’t tell you.

SERGEANT McGANN: You could tell me if you wanted to.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I could not.

SERGEANT McGANN: All right.

Tell me who went up, then.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I couldn’t tell you that.

SERGEANT McGANN: No, now, you’re — you’re wrong there and I know that you could tell me that.

You could tell me exactly who went up there.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Charlie and one of the guys, three of the girls went up there, took an old car, drove up to the Tate house, parked a little ways from the house.

Then, they did their thing.

Right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Could be.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did they use Schwartz’s car that night?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Could have. It was around.

SERGEANT McGANN: It was one of the only ones running at that time, wasn’t it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum — there was Shorty’s car, too.

SERGEANT McGANN: What color is Shorty’s car?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t remember.

SERGEANT McGANN: Schwartz’s car is white kind of — light or kind of yellowish, wasn’t it? Schwartz, John Schwartz.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It could have been yellow. It was either that pale, pale yellow, or it was a dirty white.

SERGEANT McGANN: Was it two-toned?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It could have been both — Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: It was two-toned. Do you think?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It had mostly white on it, as far as I can remember.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, do you think they used Schwartz’s car that night?

I know you know what car they used.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It’s possible.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you think they did?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Do I think they did?

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I never saw anyone drive out of the yard or (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Who’d you see getting ready to go, or you thought they were going to leave the Ranch that night, the 8th of August?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, I went to bed really early that night.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Really, I don’t — you know — like I don’t want to talk about it.

SERGEANT McGANN: I think you’ll feel better if you do.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I feel pretty good.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, but you’ll never know how good you could feel until you tell me.

Right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I’m not so sure.

SERGEANT McGANN: Huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’m not so sure.

SERGEANT McGANN: I’m not going to tell anybody you told me, Leslie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You could tell the whole world and I wouldn’t care.

SERGEANT McGANN: I haven’t told you who’s telling me and telling me all this stuff so far, have I?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I know who has.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’m not going to tell you.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, there’s been more than one.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: You know that, huh?

How do you know that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Because you said you’ve talked to a lot of people.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: One of the detectives told me he talked to a hundred people about it.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, well, on the case, I’ve talked to six or seven hundred people, but I haven’t talked to that many people about you, specifically and your group; but I have talked to several — more than one — one or two — and I’ve got quite a bit.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yes.

I’m a very noticeable person, I imagine.

SERGEANT McGANN: As I told you before, the Family is no more.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: So, there really is no reason not to — to tell me about it.

Right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Possibly.

SERGEANT McGANN: I’ve noticed while we’re sitting here, you’re a pretty sharp little gal and I think you know an awful lot about it.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’m really stupid.

SERGEANT McGANN: Aw (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’ve been called the dumbest woman in the world.

SERGEANT McGANN: It must have been a dummy telling you that, then.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

SERGEANT McGANN: Huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: No, I — I think not — ah — Leslie.

They might have told you that, but think — I think you just kind of out-slickered them a little bit.

Right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Could be.

SERGEANT McGANN: You mean a young gal like you would get around all over the country from Iowa — What is it? Waterloo, Iowa?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: — and down here, up to San Francisco and make out up there for apparently longer than just a couple of months, make it down here to the Spahn Ranch.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Right into good old Sybil Brand.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, yeah, you did make it to Sybil Brand.
That — that was a bad move on your part.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) but you never know what little detail might prove important at a later time.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: How did you ever trace it back to Spahn’s?

SERGEANT McGANN: Like I say, Leslie, I’ve been working on this silly case for three and a half — over three and a half months.

It went down August the ninth, and it’s just about four months now. Just about four months.

I’ve covered a lot of ground in four months. I’ve been all over the country.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah?

Europe, too, huh?

SERGEANT McGANN: Never made it to Europe.

Made it — ah — all over the east coast and down to South America —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: South America?

And it’s all —

SERGEANT McGANN: — cha– chasing —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And it’s all —

SERGEANT McGANN: — chasing —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And it’s all (Unintelligible) on me?

SERGEANT McGANN: No, well, chasing phoney leads down there.

I’ve been chasing drug leads for about three weeks now, four weeks.

And I’ve come up with a lot of information, and, like I say, all I need is just to — I want to hear what you know, what you heard, everything you’ve heard.

That’s all I’m asking you for.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I heard that Sharon Tate had been murdered —

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — by and for the people.

And I heard that — or I saw in a magazine that pig was written on the front door.

SERGEANT McGANN: Just like they did Hinman.

Just like old Sadie Mae did.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And — ah I heard that the Folgers girl had been stabbed something like eighty seven times.

SERGEANT McGANN: Kind of vicious, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Not too good.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

Overdoing it a little.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yes, yeah, yeah, Leslie.

I think so.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And that’s about all.

SERGEANT McGANN: Not true now, Leslie, not true, not true.

You heard a lot of things from up at the ranch about it, from all or some of the participants that went out there that night.

Tell me about that.

That’s what I want to hear.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But, I — That’s what I don’t want to talk about.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s what I want to hear, got to hear it. I have to.

Yeah, I’ve got to hear about that.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: How come I’m supposed to know so much?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you’re not the only one that knows.

But I know you know because you were one of the group and you were liked by the group.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh.

SERGEANT McGANN: They talked — they talked —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Nobody liked me. I’m the most unlikable person —

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, I can tell that.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — in the world.

SERGEANT McGANN: You’re just a terrible girl, just terrible.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, and I was always ornery, nobody ever talked to me.

SERGEANT McGANN: No. Maybe unfortunately for you, you were a very likable girl and they all talked freely.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum.

SERGEANT McGANN: The guys liked you and the girls liked you pretty much.

You didn’t give anybody any trouble.

So they talked to you.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But I didn’t listen.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, yes, you did.

You couldn’t help but listen, it was interesting.

An intelligent girl like you is going to listen. She’d want something interesting to hear,
ever though it might be a little sorded.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What do you mean sorded?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, bizarre, so to speak.

Killing five people, you’ve got to admit is kind of, you know, out of the ordinary.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What?

SERGEANT McGANN: Killing five people, it’s kind of out of the ordinary — ah —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yes.

SERGEANT McGANN: You don’t go out and do that every day.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

SERGEANT McGANN: No.

So you listened.

You listened good.

Now I’m listening.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: So, I ain’t talking.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you’re — but you’re going to.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Not now.

SERGEANT McGANN: What not now?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Cause I don’t want to.

SERGEANT McGANN: When then?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Maybe never.

I may end up in — ah — totally nuts because I’m holding something.

I don’t want to talk about anything.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did you ever bury any of the weapons or take any of the weapons after they came back from these deals?

You didn’t do any of that, huh?

I told you about the immunity, you know, even though it would make you a principal if you had taken the weapons and hid them somewhere for the guys.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum?

Do you realize that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t have anything to say that I could claim immunity for.

SERGEANT McGANN: All yours is just hearsay, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Everything you know is just from hearing it from the other group, the rest of the group, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: All right.

I’ll buy that.

All I want to know is what you heard up at Spahn.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But, I told you.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you told me you heard a lot of talk, but I don’t — I don’t buy that.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Neither would the other guys. Nobody believes me.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you — you — you come right out and admit that you know all about it — ah — Leslie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I didn’t say I know all about it.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, yes, you did.

Your eyes told me you know all about it. You can’t hide them.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I need a pair of sunglasses.

SERGEANT McGANN: You told me everything I want to know.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But, seriously, I don’t know anything about it.

SERGEANT McGANN: No, no.

Seriously, you do.

It’s the eyes that give you away.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You can’t change your eyes too much.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s right.

Or your facial expressions.

So, I’m only asking you what you know about it, what you know from what you’ve heard up there at Spahn and Barker Ranch.

They talked about it freely around — around the campfires.

They talked about killing the piggies.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That was more or less just an expression.

SERGEANT McGANN: Whose expression was that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — The Beatles.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, it was sure taken up by your group then, by Clem, and Charlie, Ruth.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You mean Rachel?

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

Well, I had exhausted my cigar here anyway, huh.

Well, Leslie, when are you going to be ready to tell me?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I couldn’t tell you.

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum.

You can’t tell me when you are going to be ready to tell me you mean?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yes, I may never.

SERGEANT McGANN: You want some more coffee?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, that would be nice.

Am I going to be in here that (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: You bet your life.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, boy.

Can I go to the restroom again, too?

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

Just hold — just wait a second and I’ll get the sergeant in here.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, is this the sergeant?

No, huh?

This is McGann. I’m in the captain’s office here.

You thought it was who?

No. What I wanted — ah — the gal that I have in here — ah — Leslie, she’d like to have — ah — another cup of coffee and she wanted to go to the restroom and I just —

Okay.

Leslie wants another cup of coffee and — ah — and — ah — she wants to go to the restroom again.

I hope so.

Oh, not too much.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that sounds good, yeah.

Okay. Fine.

And she wants to go to the restroom when she gets — ah — when the sarge gets —

Okay. All right. Bye.

She’ll be in. The sergeant walked down to the other end of the hall, so it will be a minute and then she’ll be back and take care of that.

You got (Unintelligible) I guess, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Oh, a guy can have a stroke in here, leave all this good stuff in here I guess, huh?

Let’s see, those were my ashes there (Unintelligible) cigar.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Hi. Come on. You know the way. I’m behind you.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) painting.

SERGEANT McGANN: Isn’t that nice?

It really is (Unintelligible) who painted that thing.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It looks like a jigsaw puzzle I put together.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) does it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, yeah, I’ve put together (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: You like jigsaw puzzles?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, it passes the time.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) that’s right.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I think in the last two months I’ve read about fifteen novels and — ah — I’ve put together about at least thirty jigsaw puzzles.

SERGEANT McGANN: Where, at the ranch?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And I — Huh?

SERGEANT McGANN: The ranch? Where?

Oh, while since you’ve been in jail.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. And I —

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You know (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Time passes slow, I imagine, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, it’s going quick. It’s slower here, but — ooh — those women are such hotheads.

SERGEANT McGANN: Where?

What women?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: In 1552 or 51 (Unintelligible) here.

SERGEANT McGANN: The inmates?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

They are all kind of mad because they’re here and (Unintelligible)

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: (Unintelligible) here you go, Leslie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: All right.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Okay. Hum.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) does that do it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, it tastes good.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Good.

Not too bad. That’s all right.

This is like winter in here with that air conditioner on, huh?

Kind of cold.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

Well — ah — can you — can you explain to me about the grand jury?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, the grand jury is a secret proceedings.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What do you mean secret proceedings?

SERGEANT McGANN: In other — no one knows about it, no one knows what is said in there. It’s not open to the public about the people that are going to testify.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s the deal.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Do you have all the suspects now (Unintelligible) call suspects?

SERGEANT McGANN: Let’s see.

All of the suspects that I know of are in custody.

Now, that doesn’t mean there are not some (Unintelligible) of thing that I don’t know about.

Right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I guess so.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you know.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh?

SERGEANT McGANN: You know.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Who?

Did all the people cooperate with (Unintelligible) the other detective told me I was the only one that wants to cooperate.

SERGEANT McGANN: No, I’m not going to lie to you. You’re not — I think you’re too smart a girl for me to sit here and lie to you.

Ah — everyone hasn’t cooperated 100 percent.

But — ah — some of them have.

In other words, enough people have cooperated for us to fit the bits and pieces together.

Like I told you — ah — you may know something that somebody else didn’t know as well as what they did know, but I really think that you were — you had a personality that’s — your personality was such that they told you just about everything that went on and you knew of everything that went on because you were kind of trusted and — and — ah — you had a favorable personality, friendly, easy to get along with.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That would be even more reason for me not to tell.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: If I were trusted.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, trusted in a sense that — ah — they — they spoke freely.

In other words — ah — they knew you weren’t going to run down right then.

But the Family is no longer, Leslie (Unintelligible) something these — these people, regardless of what you want to — ah — call it, are — are killers, and, you know, killers.

There is no way to — ah — get around it, Leslie.

Nobody is safe on the streets.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It looks that way.

And hearing about Zero has sort of thrown me for a loop because I know — I knew Zero and I know that Zero wouldn’t play Russian roulette.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s what I think, too.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I know that — that Zero wouldn’t because I saw him the day he got released.

I’ve never seen a happier person.

SERGEANT McGANN: It’s officially listed as a suicide.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’m sure.

But I — I really don’t know.

I don’t know who would be doing that.

SERGEANT McGANN: What do you think about Bruce Davis?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Bruce?

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Bruce is a lot of talk.

SERGEANT McGANN: He was there.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: He was there when Zero shot himself?

SERGEANT McGANN: What do you think about that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Bruce was?

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Did you question him?

SERGEANT McGANN: Not about that. I didn’t personally. It’s not my jurisdiction.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

Gee, that’s weird.

SERGEANT McGANN: You think so, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, I do.

Was he playing it, too?

SERGEANT McGANN: I don’t know.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Zero was playing Russian roulette all by himself.

SERGEANT McGANN: Kind of odd, isn’t it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, it’s odd.

And Bruce was there?

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum.

He sure was.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Do you know where Bruce is now?

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: In jail?

SERGEANT McGANN: No.

Is he the other man that went up there with Charlie?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Not that I know of.

SERGEANT McGANN: You know, Leslie, you know who it was.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I could take the chicken’s way out and say it was Zero, but I won’t.

SERGEANT McGANN: Good.

Because I don’t think it was Zero.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But, it wasn’t Bruce either.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

I didn’t think it was, but —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Like I say, Bruce was a lot of talk.

SERGEANT McGANN: I think it was either Clem or Tex that was with him.

I’d buy Clem a little more because he — I think he does really need some help.

I think he’s kind of funny.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, Clem’s a little weird in the head (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: If you’re going to tell me it wasn’t Clem, it would have to be Tex.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum?

You’re not telling me it wasn’t Clem?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-uh.

I’m not telling you it wasn’t or it was.

I’m not telling you nothing about him.

It’s just that I don’t think either of those two (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Ah — come on, now, you’re putting me on again.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Clem’s touched in the head, but he’s gentle. I mean I don’t —

SERGEANT McGANN: I don’t think he went into the place.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: I think he waited in the car.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Is that right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I don’t know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, Leslie, you do to.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: How. could I (Unintelligible) has anyone been talking to Diane Blustein?

SERGEANT McGANN: Ooh, a little while ago (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: We’ve been real busy.

I mean we have been out and about and back and here and there and everywhere, you know.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) a long lunch.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, we just — a 12-hour lunch, Leslie.

Here, here’s your candy bar.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oohh —

SERGEANT McGANN: One for you and one for me.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — goodie.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh.

Did you have dinner, what time is dinner?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Let’s see, dinner’s at about four thirty.

SERGEANT McGANN: It’s a long time between lunch wasn’t it cause (Unintelligible) you said you ate at ten.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I think we eat every six hours.

SERGEANT McGANN: You must have eaten at ten thirty then, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, either that or four. I’m not too sure of that (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: See anybody else?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh?

SERGEANT McGANN: Did you see anybody else while you were in the (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You mean any of the girls?

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No, I just saw Diane. As I was walking by, I looked in the booking and I saw her.

SERGEANT McGANN: Where is that, right down here?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum.

What did you have for dinner?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh?

SERGEANT McGANN: What did you have for dinner?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: They served ham and potatoes and a salad and — ah — cake.

SERGEANT McGANN: What kind of cake?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Chocolate.

SERGEANT McGANN: Chocolate.

You like chocolate cake, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh, yeah, they have a pretty good dinner.

SERGEANT McGANN: You’re hung up on chocolate, are you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: One of the girls in our cell was in with Sadie.

SERGEANT McGANN: One of the girls in your cell?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh, she was a trustee with Sadie.

SERGEANT McGANN: She used to be in with her, or what?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

And then she got — she got — ah — she did something wrong so she can’t be a trustee anymore.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who did, Sadie?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh, this other girl because she’s in with us now.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh.

What’s her name?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know. I didn’t find out her name.

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) deported to England.

SERGEANT McGANN: Is that right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s pretty keen. Wish they’d deport me there, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum.

I could go for that right now.

SERGEANT McGANN: You could, huh?

I’ll get you some matches, too.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) got any cigarettes left?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh, I got a couple. I smoke a lot.

SERGEANT McGANN: You do, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I’ll fix you up before we go. Remind me.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Okay.

SERGEANT McGANN: Get you through the — tonight anyway, huh, maybe tomorrow?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You get a day off tomorrow, don’t you?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, you really don’t get days off though.

SERGEANT McGANN: We’re supposed to have (Unintelligible) holiday, we’re supposed to have Sundays — Saturdays and Sundays and holi- — and holidays off, but we don’t — we very seldom get them off.

We —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, well, what if something is —

SERGEANT McGANN: — get called, you know.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — on your mind?

It’s sort of hard for — with your kind of work to consider it work, it would seem to me.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, it’s a good job. I mean —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: — I like — I like the job. I’m — I’m real happy with it. I enjoy the work.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, it’s — it’s interesting.

SERGEANT McGANN: It’s a very interesting job.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But, it seems to me, like you, you know, when you’d just be sitting at home you’d still be thinking about it, trying to —

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you are.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — put everything together.

SERGEANT McGANN: Lately when I’ve been at home though, I’ve — I’ve been sleeping because I’ve been working about sixteen hours a day — twelve hours.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Like the detective stories?

SERGEANT McGANN: There’s no difference.

Where do you think they get those stories from?

Huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, it makes sense.

SERGEANT McGANN: They don’t make that stuff up about the detective working sixteen hours a day, or twenty four.

See, for the first five days after these people were murdered, I was — I worked around the clock practically.

I was sleeping three or four hours a day is all.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I heard that there were about so many people, I don’t remember, working twenty four hours a day on it.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, that wasn’t entirely true. I was one of the — one of the ones working twenty four hours a day.

But there really —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Couldn’t that —

SERGEANT McGANN: — weren’t that many —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: — working on it.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Couldn’t that psychic guy help you out any?

SERGEANT McGANN: Who, Peter Hurkos?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: The one that — all the great train robberies.

That’s another thing that I read.

SERGEANT McGANN: Listen, these psychics don’t know. They’ve got a lot of publicity, but they are not — know all this stuff.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: What time is lights out here, do you know?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum, I think about nine o’clock.

SERGEANT McGANN: You can have these, too, if you want.

So, they fed you a pretty good dinner, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you think you will have turkey tomorrow night?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Spiced it up, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

It will take some getting used to, but once I get used to it, it will be all right.

SERGEANT McGANN: No spices in the other jail, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum (Unintelligible) salt and pepper.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did — ah — did you eat the ham tonight?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-uh.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s pork. That’s not meat.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yes, probably.

I just didn’t want to (Unintelligible) I don’t — I don’t have it like a set rule, you know, or a belief, or anything. I just generally don’t eat it.

SERGEANT McGANN: One of the beliefs that Charlie put down was (Unintelligible) vegetarian (Unintelligible) wasn’t it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — He never really put down any like beliefs, you know, like he never really said, “Don’t do this or that,” you know, or he never said, “Do this or that.”

SERGEANT McGANN: He didn’t, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-uh.

It was just e- — you know, he could get food easier if it wasn’t meat without working, than if you would eat meat.

We ate liver for awhile. I love liver.

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you like liver?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, God.

SERGEANT McGANN: Man, I hate the stuff.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You don’t like it?

SERGEANT McGANN: No.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, I love it.

SERGEANT McGANN: No. I’m missing out on a good steak tonight.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You are?

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Because of me?

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, go home and eat it.

Well, I can’t do it. Too close, Leslie, too close to (Unintelligible) deal.

I really — I really wouldn’t even enjoy it, going home tonight and eating steak.

I’d be thinking I should be doing work instead of that.

Did you think about our talk this morning any?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Come to any conclusions?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, it’s just that I know that I can’t tell you anything that you don’t already know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I think you ought not to be the judge of that though.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I have an idea that there were five people, but I don’t know exactly who they were.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

I think you’re exactly right. I think there were five people.

Now, if (Unintelligible) could go along the lines, that okay, there were five people and these are the five people that I think they are and then we could go along, well, what makes you think that they are the five people.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum.

SERGEANT McGANN: Just go along those lines.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, how’s about if I told you who I think didn’t go and the reasons why?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, that’s a start.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Okay.

Ah — I don’t — I don’t think Charlie was in on any of them.

SERGEANT McGANN: None of them?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, he might have been in on — ah — you know — ah —

SERGEANT McGANN: On the Tate and LaBianca, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No, I don’t think he was.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I know he was.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh.

SERGEANT McGANN: So there is one that was there that — whist —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, well see, and I — I honestly didn’t know that.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Well, we can’t eliminate him.

So we’ll go on from there.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Okay.

And I don’t think it would be Bruce Davis because Bruce is mostly — ah — talk, you know.

He’d sit around the ranch and talk about nitro — you know, all these big words, you know, and fixing up.

SERGEANT McGANN: Nitroglycerin and stuff like that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, his — his imagination in other words, was, you know, just sort of sitting around, thinking about ways of doing really weird things.

But I don’t think he would have it in him to do something like that because obviously the person who did it would have to, from what the other detectives told me, like about the Folgers girl, being stabbed that many times, one of the people had to really be, you know, just on the point of really freaking out.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I think they did freak out.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, they must have because —

SERGEANT McGANN: I think that’s one of the problems (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, because, you know, by being with the people every day I wouldn’t suspect any of them of doing it.

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh. Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But, obviously, someone had to of and they had to be, you know, like that kind of a person.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, you’re right.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And I know that — ah — I know that Bill Vance wouldn’t do it.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, why wouldn’t Bill do it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Cause — ah — well, I — I know that Bill has had other records and things like that, you know, and he seems more interested in — ah —

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — you know, the businessman bad guy, you know, the — the hoodlum.

SERGEANT McGANN: The hoodlum, huh, a big time — ah —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: — hoodlum type, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, the kind that would, you know —

SERGEANT McGANN: The shoot-em-up type, you know, bang, bang, shoot em up and all that jazz.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No, not — not so much that, but just, you know —

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — with business affairs, you know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, the smooth — the — the — the bank — ah — embezzler and stuff like that.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, like a — like a mafia kind of guy, only not all the killing, but, you know, working with the money and — and all, you know —

SERGEANT McGANN: All that.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — that kind of thing.

That’s how Bill was because lots of times I’d see him with, you know, a briefcase or something (Unintelligible) walk around (Unintelligible) and — ah — Tex to me seemed more like a college student.

SERGEANT McGANN: Tex is a funny guy as far as I can tell. I — I really haven’t — I haven’t talked to him.

But just from what I’ve heard about him, he’s kind of a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde type affair, huh?

You know what I mean?

Good guy —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Good guy, bad guy.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, well, the — the most I ever saw him was Dr. Jekyll cause he always, you know, sort of had the manner of — ah — being pretty well learned, you know.

He was always working on the dune buggies and was more into the mechanical kind of stuff.

He didn’t really seem to me like he would do that.

SERGEANT McGANN: He was some type of mechanic, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

He was always fixing up the dune buggies.

He had about five of them. Everyday he would be fixing them.

SERGEANT McGANN: He really knew his stuff about the mechanic’s side of a car, and stuff like that, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well–

SERGEANT McGANN: Did he seem to, did he keep them running all right?

Huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: For one — for one go round and then they’d break down again.

SERGEANT McGANN: Then — then he’d have to go again, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, and — ah — of course, Scottie wouldn’t.

Scottie wouldn’t — he wasn’t even built to do something like that.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, don’t forget now that they had weapons when they’d go out there.

They had weapons when they go out there and they — ah — there’s not just one, remember there’s five we are talking about, right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: So, you know (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But I understood three of them were girls.

SERGEANT McGANN: Huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I understood probably that there were more girls involved than men.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, I think there were three girls.

Let’s get back to the guys.

We have eliminated Tex, Scottie, Bruce Davis.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’m going to eliminate them all.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But I am just going to tell you why I’ve eliminated them.

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh, go ahead.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And — ah — let’s see, who else was there? What other guys (Unintelligible) Clem.

SERGEANT McGANN: You can’t eliminate Clem, can you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: He’s just — he is just nuts, you know, he’s just —

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you think he would be just — just kind of coocoo that he might go out there for that with Charlie?

He’s kind of — Charlie took him along on some things, didn’t he?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Not too much.

Clem stayed mostly with his girls cause he — he (Unintelligible) seem very capable of doing anything.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You know, he’d just sort of sit around and kind of la la la la la (Unintelligible) and then ever so often he’d talk a few words that didn’t make much sense.

SERGEANT McGANN: All right.

Let’s kind of talk for a minute (Unintelligible) we can eliminate, I think, most of the guys.

I mean Beausoleil, Bobby, he’s in jail, so he couldn’t have done it.

So, he’s eliminated, right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Well, it seems to me that Tex, he’s actually the most likely one to have gone with him.

He did have a little bit of mechanical ability.

Ah — apparently he was fairly strong in stature.

I mean, you know, he wasn’t a ninety pound weakling or anything, was he (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No, Clem’s got a — I mean Tex has got a nice body.

SERGEANT McGANN: Nice — nice built, yeah.

Ah — And he is a mechanic and in case they had car trouble when they were going up to the hill, why he could have fixed the car maybe, or got it going.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: And — ah — again he was apparently a friend of Charlie’s, went along with Charlie’s theories, thinking.

So, it would be my judgement it was probably Tex.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Tex and Charlie?

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

Were the two men.

You buy that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — it could have been.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay. Well, okay, what did you hear about that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I didn’t — I didn’t hear that Charlie went.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who did you hear that went?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: My goodness.

Maybe that chocolate did you in, huh?

Go ahead and smoke what you got and I can get you some before I leave.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Okay.

I could tell you that I couldn’t remember.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, but we’d both know you’d be spoofing me.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: How’s about if I were just to tell you if I was you how I would go about figuring out who it was?

SERGEANT McGANN: All right.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Okay.

Now, let’s see, you’d be figuring that — And from the way you talk, it — you figure it was mostly Charlie’s idea.

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And so the people that did it would have to be pretty close to — with him.

SERGEANT McGANN: Right.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And be under pretty good influence —

SERGEANT McGANN: Right.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — of — of him.

In other words, be associated with him, close to him, feel the same way he did.

SERGEANT McGANN: Right.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: So that would be the people that were most like him.

SERGEANT McGANN: I think we could assume that.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That’s still a pretty broad thing cause —

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay, now tell me —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) quite a few.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) tell me who you think that might be.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That would — that would either be — That would have to be either Charlie himself —

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — Bruce, Clem, or Tex.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And not — I’m not too much Bill.

SERGEANT McGANN: Too much Bill.

All right (Unintelligible) tell (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Bill.

SERGEANT McGANN: It would have to be Bruce — pardon me ….. Tex, Clem and Charlie

Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Thinking back on — on the guys that would go, although I’m almost positive that Charlie wasn’t there, but —

SERGEANT McGANN: He wasn’t on Hinman.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No, I’m — I’m not talking about the (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay. On the Tate and LaBianca’s.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Right.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

He was on — But he was on the Tate murder (Unintelligible) tell you that.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Are you sure of it?

SERGEANT McGANN: I’m positive. Absolutely positive, absolutely positive.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Because, you know, like I was — I couldn’t have told you that one.

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Then the girls, it could have been any of us.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, let’s talk about the men still and we can get down here and find out who the other
guy was with them.

We’ve got it eliminated down to three other guys, Bruce Davis, Clem and Tex.

You can eliminate two for me.

That makes it easy.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

How many did you have it limited down to before you came in here?

SERGEANT McGANN: Three.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: The same three.

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I never saw Tex as a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, but, you know, someone told you,
you know, that he had them tendencies, those tendencies.

SERGEANT McGANN: No, they really didn’t tell me.

This was just something that I, from hearing different things from different people that I’ve talked to, kind of picked this out, that — that he could have.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Like, well, can you tell me some of the things that he did that was like Mr. Hyde?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, he — he seemed to be — ah — well, he’s pretty smart for one thing.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I — I think he went pretty far in college.

SERGEANT McGANN: I think he was pretty smart and the reason why was he never got caught.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: He — I — I noticed that, too.

He wasn’t in on this last Barker raid.

SERGEANT McGANN: He wasn’t on the Spahn Ranch raid either.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: He wasn’t?

SERGEANT McGANN: No.

Pretty smooth, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You’ve got to hand it to him, it is.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s right.

I’ve got to hand it to him.Pretty smooth.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Do you know where he is now?

SERGEANT McGANN: Not exactly.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: He’s smarter than I thought.

SERGEANT McGANN: He’s pretty smart (Unintelligible) you got to give him credit.

He’s a pretty smart fellow.

And yet he has to he, I — I think, as I said — said before, I think he’s a good possibility and I think you know but you just won’t tell me about it (Unintelligible) and I’m sure he was there.

I’m pretty sure that he’s the one of the three, but I — I need a little more than just a hunch on my part.

You can’t just go off the deep end, you have to have —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But, I couldn’t tell you.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I think you heard about it though, didn’t you, Leslie, you heard about it at Spahn Ranch and then again at the Barker.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I heard it happening, but I never got all the people that were there straight.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, tell me what you — what you think you heard then.

You heard them talk about it.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’m trying to remember where I was that night.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Go ahead, Leslie, take your time. I’m in no hurry.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Cause if I remember my whereabouts, then I can remember when I talked with them.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

No problem.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, it don’t make sense that Bruce would have knocked off Zero.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well–

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’m trying to even think if Bruce could have been on it. He was afraid that that (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I don’t think Bruce — I don’t know if Bruce killed Zero or not. I — I really don’t
know.

It’s listed as a suicide. It’s a little bit — a little bit shakey, quite frankly, as a suicide, but there is no other indications that it was murder, so —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh -huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: We’ve got plenty of murders that aren’t solved. We don’t need anymore around.

But, of course, we don’t want to see it just —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — the — ah — the other guy told me there were eleven murders.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And I can count for eight, nine.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay, nine.

Well, Shorty (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No, that was — that was number nine.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you’re not — you’re not counting Hinman, how about Hinman?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Wait, and the other (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: You’ve got five, six, seven.

That’s right, nine, because it would be —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Nine.

SERGEANT McGANN: — five at the Tate’s, two at the LaBianca’s, one at Hinman (Unintelligible) Hinman and then Shorty.

That’s nine.

Well, probably they think there are two other ones.

There’s supposed to be some colored dope peddler that they shot, some panther, Black Panther, that they killed.

I don’t know too much about that, really.

Do you know anything about it?

You ought to wear sunglasses.

Your eyes give you away, Leslie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’ll shut my eyes.

I’ll be like George, “Can’t see a thing.”

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum.

He can see, you know.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s what I understand, that the old man can see, yeah.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, he can. I know he can.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, I understand he can see. I heard, you know (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: He can see out of this — this corner of his — of his eye.

SERGEANT McGANN: Can he?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: He has peripheral vision. They call it peri- — peripheral vision.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, the sides. He catches shadows and all that kind of stuff.

SERGEANT McGANN: Does he?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Sure.
That’s why he always goes, “Can’t see a thing,” and everytime he will bump into a door.

And, actually that’s proof right there you can see —

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — because if you were blind he wouldn’t want to bump into doors all the time.

It proves you’re right.

SERGEANT McGANN: Ah — so you got Shorty, the Panther.

Who’s the other one?

I think the other one was a guy up in — ah — Barker, a miner, or something (Unintelligible) I’m not sure if that’s right or not.

Quite frankly, I haven’t been working on any other ones, so —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, well —

SERGEANT McGANN: I mean I really —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — I was just curious.

SERGEANT McGANN: I haven’t been that con- — concerned with them.

I know the Panther that they — Charlie supposedly killed him.

And then — ah I guess there were several that participated in choppihg up Old Charlie (Unintelligible) or Old Shorty.

Huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know. I wasn’t there.

SERGEANT McGANN: You heard about it though, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum.

I’m really hard of hearing. I hear things all funny.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, well, you hear pretty good.

Tell me some more stuff about what you were going to tell me about (Unintelligible) and you were figuring out who you overheard was up there with Charlie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, see, that right there, I never heard that Charlie was there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: So that was really kept.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who did you hear was up there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah — oh, anybody.

SERGEANT McGANN: No. No.

Don’t put it on just anybody.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I heard one girl that isn’t with us anymore was up there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who was that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: A girl by the name of Linda.

SERGEANT McGANN: Linda?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Linda.

What’s her name, full name, or what did she use for a name other than Linda?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know. I don’t know.

SERGEANT McGANN: It wasn’t Marnie Reeves?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: She wasn’t arrested with us.

SERGEANT McGANN: Where, at Spahn or at — ah —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Any — any time.

SERGEANT McGANN: She’s never been arrested (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-uh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, she hasn’t, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: She just came and went.

SERGEANT McGANN: When did she first show up?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, I don’t remember.

SERGEANT McGANN: Huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t remember.

SERGEANT McGANN: You don’t remember.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: She wasn’t with us but for a couple of weeks.

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you think she would be trusted to go up there?

Do you think that Charlie would have picked her to go on this deal?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know.

SERGEANT McGANN: I don’t really think so.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But I’ve heard that she was there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, yeah:

Who did you hear that from?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t remember.

I don’t remember who tells me little details.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay, okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You know, you live each — each day for what it is, you know.

Like that it’s hard to even tell you what — what month, I couldn’t possibly say what month things happened and I can only tell you seasons.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well–

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But, that’s, you know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

You heard Linda went up there.

What does she look like? What does Linda look like?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, shorter than me.

SERGEANT McGANN: How tall are you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Five six.

SERGEANT McGANN: So, she’d be what?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t — just — I don’t know, but she’s shorter.

SERGEANT McGANN: Two inches, or a foot, or —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No, not — maybe about this much.

SERGEANT McGANN: Six to eight inches?

Four inches?

She’d be pretty short if she — You’re five six.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, it would be about like this. I dont know.

SERGEANT McGANN: About four inches, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: About five two?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Maybe.

SERGEANT McGANN: How much did she weigh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, not too much.

SERGEANT McGANN: Thin?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, pretty thin.

SERGEANT McGANN: How old a girl?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: She’s pretty young.

SERGEANT McGANN: About your age?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: What color hair?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum, light, but not light.

SERGEANT McGANN: Light, but not blonde, you mean, or light brown, very blonde?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: She had more brown.

SERGEANT McGANN: More brown.

Light brown, huh?

Did she have a car?

What did she do up there, what was her duties or —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: She was just — she was just one of the girls.

SERGEANT McGANN: One of the girls, huh?

Was she close to Charlie?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-uh.

It seemed funny, you know, that I — that that’s — that’s why it seemed funny to me, you know, when I heard her name — know, when I heard her name —

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — I was wondering. In fact —

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

We got old Linda then. She’s one of the girls.

That only leaves two more girls.

We got a girl named Linda and a gir- — and Charlie and we don’t know.

But talking about the guys, who do you think the guy — the other guy was, out of the three?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I think you — I think you heard though, didn’t you, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It wouldn’t be fair for me to tell you something I heard.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yes, it would. That’s what I’m asking you.

Yeah, uh-huh, oh, hey, that sounds like a good idea.

Well, wait a minute.

How do you drink your coffee? Ah —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Cream and sugar.

SERGEANT McGANN: Cream and sugar.

A lot of cream?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

A lot of cream.

SERGEANT McGANN: Cream and sugar in one of them with quite a bit of cream and I’ll have mine black.

Okay.

Oh, you’re a good man, Chick, thank you.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You know what, I’m not even sure about Linda.

That’s why — one reason why I don’t want to give it — you any of my ideas.

That’s not fair to a person that could be innocent.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Contrary to a lot of peoples’ belief, Leslie, contrary to a lot of peoples’ belief, the police department, or at least the investigators that I have known, don’t want to put the hit on an innocent person, so we’re not going to do it. We’re going to check it out.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: You know?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: So, we’ll check — we’ll check — we’ll check everything out.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, like how do you know for sure that Charlie was there?

That really throws me.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, we’ll get down to the — to the — when we start talking about the girls that were there, then I will tell you how I know that Charlie was there.

Maybe one of the girls said he was there that was on the job.

I think the other guy that went with Charlie, the other man in the group, there was three girls and two guys, I think the other man in the group waited in the car — I’m not sure about that though, I’m pretty sure — he waited in the car.

Charlie and the three girls went into the house to do their deed.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Could three people do that?

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Four, it would be four. Three —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Could four?

SERGEANT McGANN: — and him.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Could three girls?

SERGEANT McGANN: And Charlie with his gun out. With a gun certainly he could.

He did it.

No question about it.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, yeah, but it doesn’t seem to me like — He’s pretty small.

SERGEANT McGANN: But you’re ten feet tall when you’re pointing a gun at somebody.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I heard that guns are usually like old (Unintelligible) unless you get a huge shotgun.

SERGEANT McGANN: A small caliber gun can do a lot more damage sometimes than a big caliber gun, Leslie.

A big caliber gun might just go — the bullet just might go through you and a small caliber might just go around inside and hit all your vital organs.

See?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: The gun Charlie had was a pretty big gun anyway, not in — not in caliber, but in stature.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Was it what, long?

SERGEANT McGANN: It’s the one he used to shoot up there at the ranch.

Do you know the one I’m talking about?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-uh.

SERGEANT McGANN: If I showed you a picture of a gun just like he had up there, would you tell me if it was true or not true, would you —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: If — you mean if —

SERGEANT McGANN: If I showed you a picture —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — you showed me a picture —

SERGEANT McGANN: — of a gun like the one he had up there, would you — would you level with me and tell me if it’s the gun he used to use up there or not the gun he used to use up there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I couldn’t tell you because I wasn’t there.

SERGEANT McGANN: At the Spahn Ranch?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, yeah, I thought you were talking about —

SERGEANT McGANN: The Spahn Ranch.

He used this gun all the time to — He used to practice.

He used to shoot at a barrel affair up there, I think up by the — where the corrals are, or something. He used to shoot it up there.

Remember that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-uh.

I remember sometimes when — ah — George would leave, all the guys — they used to be so stupid — all the guys would run in the bunk house — these were mostly bikers —

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — that would come and visit for the day —

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — and for some reason they always wanted to show off their, you know, their artillery, or

something, you know.

And they’d come and shoot at the hill across the —

You want me to go to the door?

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah (Unintelligible) will you.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Coffee?

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, yeah, thank you very much.

See if I can — You want to take that one?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay, good, thanks.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: If you’ve got candy bars, make sure you eat it before you go back to (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Okay (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) get in trouble for bringing candy bars in.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No, that’s okay.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’ve gotten in trouble a couple of times today.

SERGEANT McGANN: Really? How —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: — come?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, they don’t, you know, they don’t tell you the rules all the time, so I’ve broken a couple of them, but I just explained to them I new here and they’ll —

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) good.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Like this morning I was — ah — I think I was waving to Sadie over the table and I got in trouble for saying hello.

She’s going to go to court today.

Did you find out what happened?

SERGEANT McGANN: I don’t know what happened on it. I didn’t — I don’t know about what happened.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, one girl that was in with her said it didn’t look too good for Sadie.

So — She’s really quite a nice person.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Sadie.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: She tended to be on the rough side sometimes, but —

Oh, yeah, about the gun —

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — the gun.

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: If I recognized the gun, I’d tell you if I recognized it.

SERGEANT McGANN: This is the one that Charlie used to plunk. This was his kind of favorite. He used this. He used to plunk it up there, you know, shoot it —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: — at targets — pistol, hand pistol.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh. Yeah.

Well, let me ex- — explain something to you.

SERGEANT McGANN: All right.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: When we moved to the dump, bikers started coming up.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And I liked them a whole lot.

SERGEANT McGANN: You liked the bikers?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

I liked, you know, the — the looks of the bikes and polishing them —

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — and going riding on them.

And for awhile — ah — I didn’t associate with anyone.

You know, I lived there —

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — but I spent all my time, you know, I’d spend all day just polishing up a bike.

SERGEANT McGANN: For one of the bikers, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

And I got so that like, you know, I wasn’t — I wasn’t interested really in anyone in the Family, that they were in another bag, you know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But I wanted — I wanted to be with the bikers.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: So, I spent most — most of my time at the dump and I — I didn’t pay any attention to what was going on.

And that was the time when guns and stuff like that were first, you know, were starting to come into the picture.

So, I probably could rec- — I might be able to recognize it, but I couldn’t for sure say if it was like a favorite of someone’s, but if you know it was, then —

SERGEANT McGANN: Well —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — it would have been.

SERGEANT McGANN: Would you tell me if you had ever seen Charlie with a gun like it up there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Charlie in particular?

SERGEANT McGANN: All right.

That means we got a deal.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, can I tell you if I saw the gun up there?

Would that be a deal?

SERGEANT McGANN: No. I want to know if you ever saw Charlie with it.

I don’t care if you saw other people with it, too, but I want to know if you ever saw Charlie with it.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum, I remember I saw him admiring a gun once.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But —

SERGEANT McGANN: Was it one of the — one of the biker’s guns?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

It wasn’t, you know, like a really long one.It wasn’t.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-uh.

It was — it was short, but supposedly it was — had a lot of — whew —

SERGEANT McGANN: A lot of power?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Pazazz, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, it could do the trick.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you saw him with other guns besides that one, though, right?

I mean as well as the other guys up there, too. You saw other guys with guns, also.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, but mostly rifles.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Now, I’m going to show you a gun, but you’ve got to tell me that if you saw Charlie with this gun up there that this is the gun, or one of the guns that you saw him with, or one like it.

Is it a deal now?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh — ah —

SERGEANT McGANN: No?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I guess so.

SERGEANT McGANN: No, not — You’re looking at me with those eyes again now.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: See, all these people have been closer friends to me than like the police department has been.

SERGEANT McGANN: I agree with that.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: So you can naturally see why I hesitate in my wanting to ever say anything.

SERGEANT McGANN: I realize it. I realize that 100 percent, Leslie.

But you — you may not believe me and — and — now and maybe you never will. I hope that I can convince you differently.

But I really and truly think that maybe not the police department as a whole, but that me in general, and a couple of other guys that are working on this case, who you haven’t talked to — these other guys you talked to were not actually working on the Tate case — are really better friends to you, and this is the one — these are people that did the killing, I mean, not — not the other people up there, they — they just didn’t really have anything to do or any place to go, so it was a nice spot.

But the people who committed this killing are — I don’t really think, Leslie, are your friends.

Now, and again, I don’t know what it would take to convince you, but — ah — these I really don’t think that they are your friends.

As I say, not the other people up there, the people that just — as I say, like you, you — they wandered away from home and — ah — this was not a bad spot, you had some companionship ah — that’s about it.

But these people that went out there for no reason at all and killed all these people, I don’t think you want them for friends.

So, that’s — that’s my thinking, you know.

Hum? What do you think?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What do I think?

Nothing.

SERGEANT McGANN: I distracted my train of thought. I can’t concentrate.

It’s been a long day, you know.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Excuse me, Leslie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

Naw, I don’t think I can do that.

SERGEANT McGANN: Don’t think you can do what, Leslie?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Look at the picture cause — ah —

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, all I want you to do is look at the picture. I want to show you the picture — pardon me — and you can say that you’ve seen other guys up there with it, too, which is fine.

But I want you to say that if you saw Charlie with a gun like this if you will tell me you saw him with a gun like this.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, why — why is it so important that I say him specifically?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you can say you saw the other guys with it, too.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Fine. But I think you will say yes, because I am sure you saw him with the gun.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I don’t understand why him in particular.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, because I think that’s the gun he used on the killing.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Which one?

SERGEANT McGANN: Tate.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But if any of the guys had the gun, it could have been any of the guys who did — used it on Tate, where somebody has told you that he was there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh, sure.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Then I honestly couldn’t tell you who the others were that were there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Cause I was sure that he wasn’t there.

SERGEANT McGANN: You can tell me if you want to, Leslie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Are you sure someone wasn’t fibbing to you?

SERGEANT McGANN: I’m I’m positive.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Shoosh. Really, really I didn’t think that he was there.

SERGEANT McGANN: He was there.

And he used this particular gun, I think, and he used to practice with it, or shoot it, up at the ranch, as well as other guys shot the gun, too, up there.

The only reason I want you to look at the picture is to tell me if you ever did see him with a gun like that up there, although you may have seen other guys up there too with one — I mean with the same gun shooting.

SERGEANT McGANN: You tell me the other one that I know.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-uh.

SERGEANT McGANN: If I tell you one of the girls that was there, will you tell me the other two?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-uh, cause I don’t know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yes, you do, Leslie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: See, now this is where I don’t see why I come into the picture, if one of the girls was there, that was there, told you that Charlie was there, certainly she told you who all the others were, too.

SERGEANT McGANN: No, she didn’t.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: She didn’t?

That seems pretty one-sided on her part.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, it is.

That’s what we have, unfortunately. You know the rules of evidence, you know the rules of law, in the last ten years has really prohibited the police department from doing most anything.

So, consequently, a lot of stuff that we get we can’t use except that we — we know what we’re talking about.

I know you know who was up there. You know you know that I could show you a picture there and Charlie used this gun to test fire things with.

You could look at it and you could tell me if you wanted to.

One of the girls lost her knife upthere.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That’s pretty careless.

SERGEANT McGANN: It was kind of careless.

I understand Charlie got a little upset about it, too.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Did he?

SERGEANT McGANN: Didn’t he?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know.

SERGEANT McGANN: You know, your eyes are telling fibs on you again, Leslie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Maybe they aren’t. Maybe that’s the way my eyes always look.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, no.

They light up like Christmas trees when you spook me a little bit.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Does everybody’s, or just mine?

SERGEANT McGANN: Some people don’t have the expression in their eyes that you do.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I know my face gives me away a million times.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s right, it does.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I know you know who was up there, Leslie (Unintelligible) and I know you know how it went down.

You don’t think they did the right thing up there.

I don’t think they did the right thing up there.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: If I know how much — so much, why aren’t I down as one of the girls?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, because I don’t think you were there.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I wasn’t.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

I offered you immunity although I didn’t think it was necessary because I didn’t think you were there.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It sounds like a turkey in the next room.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) what?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It sounds like a turkey in the next room.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh (Unintelligible) you’ve probably got enough evidence without me.

SERGEANT McGANN: No, I don’t. I really don’t, Leslie.

I need you very badly. It’s true.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You can’t use any of the other girls besides me?

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum, well, I personally believe, and I have reason to believe, that you know maybe a little more than the other girls.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Why is that?

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum, some conversation that I have had and — and by talking to you and — and just a little

hunch that I got.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: A little bird came and told you?

SERGEANT McGANN: Yep.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) Leslie.

SERGEANT McGANN: Huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) to Leslie.

SERGEANT McGANN: No, I (Unintelligible) you know you have to play hunches.

After you’ve been in the game a long time, you — you get ideas, think of this and think of that.

I’ve been doing this for quite awhile.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, what made you think of me?

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, like — like I told you I looked in my crystal ball, I had — ah —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: — some people that I talked to told me funny things and —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, what did they say about me? I’m curious. Can’t you tell me?

SERGEANT McGANN: No.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Nothing — nothing that would incriminate them, but I don’t even want to know who it was.

I just want to know what you know about me.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, we don’t know very much about you.

We just know that you have a pleasant personality.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Winning personality that everybody likes.

SERGEANT McGANN: Everybody likes, everybody talks freely to you.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That’s (Unintelligible) because (Unintelligible) schizophrenic.

SERGEANT McGANN: No chance.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Who do you think the girls were that were there?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I know who one of them was for sure.

Now the other two, I think one of the others was Katie —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Marnie?

SERGEANT McGANN: Marnie Reeves?

Is that right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, I — I don’t know.

You think she was one of them?

SERGEANT McGANN: I think she may have been.

But I’m not sure about that. Katie was mentioned.

You know who it was.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: She doesn’t seem like the kind that could do something like that.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, is she the only Katie?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: There was a Kitty.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who was Kitty?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Kitty Lutesinger.

SERGEANT McGANN: Kitty Lutesinger?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you think she would do something like that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

Actually none of the girls seem like they would do something like that.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I think it was Katie maybe. I don’t know. I’ve got a hunch, but I can’t say that for positive.

But, you know.

You rode up to Barker Ranch with her.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That was months after that happened.

SERGEANT McGANN: No, not months, maybe a month afterwards.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh-huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) month, I guess.

That was about Mid-September, right, when you guys went up there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Ah —

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum? Right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What?

SERGEANT McGANN: Mid-September.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh —

SERGEANT McGANN: It would be a little over a month afterwards?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, let’s see, I was there a couple of weeks before the tenth, so, yeah, probably the end of September.

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

Okay.

She didn’t have to wait I don’t think for her to take you up to Barker Ranch.

She told you about it when they got back or he did or somebody did that was there.

Correct?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What?

I was listening outside.

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh.

You — ah — you didn’t have to wait long. You went up there to Barker Ranch with her.

So, somebody, either she herself told you about that she was on that job or if she wasn’t on the job.

Again, I know one of them, Leslie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, that one —

SERGEANT McGANN: She is not the one I know though for sure.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But the one that — that you know ought to tell you the rest if she told you one.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You ought to be working on her instead of me. I wasn’t even there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh-huh. I think you’re right.

I think you’re right.

And that’s if we’re assuming that they — ah — that their minds are not kind of messed up already.

Now, I think they were all — their minds were already messed up.

Do you know?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What, if their minds were messed up?

SERGEANT McGANN: I think their minds were messed up.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Could be, but if their minds were messed up, that would mean mine must be.

SERGEANT McGANN: You didn’t take part in the killing, did you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No, but they’re my friends and they seemed —

SERGEANT McGANN: I know —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — normal to me.

SERGEANT McGANN: — I know, Leslie, but they all didn’t take part — part in the murders. I know that.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And Charlie to me seems normal.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, there ain’t any normal.

Hum?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What was the question?

SERGEANT McGANN: Ah — I don’t know. There — they got my train of thought confused out there with their hooting and a hollering.

Hum.

Want a break, want to go to the restroom or anything?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, I’ll go to the restroom (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Can she go to the restroom?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I know where it is. You can’t (Unintelligible) there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Well, come on (Unintelligible) you can wait right here.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Do you have some candy?

SERGEANT McGANN: Here (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: She’s got some.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: A Hershey with almonds.

Are you going to talk to her next?

SERGEANT McGANN: No, I’m not going to talk to anyone.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Somebody else is going to talk to her.

Yeah, what’s going on?

You are, huh?

Uh-uh. Hum (Unintelligible) yeah, in a little while.

Okay. Bye.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You going home?

SERGEANT McGANN: No, not yet.

Well, what do you think?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Nothing.

SERGEANT McGANN: Here you can take that.

Do you want to — ah — talk some more Friday?

Do you want to talk tomorrow?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No, tomorrow is Thanksgiving.

SERGEANT McGANN: I know.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, you should have a day home.

SERGEANT McGANN: You’re right, but — ah —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I wouldn’t want to talk on Thanksgiving.

I — I don’t really want to talk at all about anything.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, Leslie, I don’t know, I — I think really (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: At all about anything.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, Leslie, I don’t know, I —

SERGEANT McGANN: Want to talk some more Friday?

Do you want to talk tomorrow?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) tomorrow is Thanksgiving.

SERGEANT McGANN: I know.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, you should have a day home.

SERGEANT McGANN: You’re right, but, ah —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I wouldn’t want to talk on Thanksgiving. I don’t — I don’t really want to talk at all, about
anything.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, Leslie, I don’t know. I think really — I really think you — ah — should. I truly think you know an awful lot about the thing. You’ve been hanging around up there.

You have your philosophy; you have your personality. Everybody liked you; everybody talked to
you.

Yes.

Do you think you could get that deputy sheriff to perform the interview somewhere else with that young lady she’s got out there?

Okay.

Well, like I was saying, I’m on call all the time, so, you know, I’ll come in tomorrow. It’d be worth my while.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Not tomorrow. It wouldn’t be worth your while.

SERGEANT McGANN: You don’t want to talk on Thanksgiving, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh uh.

You’ve got to have it at home.

SERGEANT McGANN: You sound like my wife.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Don’t you — Don’t you got anybody else you want to talk to other than me, or any other leads you could follow for awhile other than me?

SERGEANT McGANN: I’ve talked to a lot of people, Leslie, already.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’ve heard you’ve talked to over a hundred.

SERGEANT McGANN: Four.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Four hundred people about us?

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, well, not that many about you — ah — probably talked to — I don’t believe we talked to a hundred, but we talked to a lot of people.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Just getting ideas about what we were about?

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What made you trace it to us in the first place?

SERGEANT McGANN: Writings on the wall, similarities between jobs. Beausoleil got caught (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: One and one makes three, hum–

SERGEANT McGANN: What —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I read that in the detective story, too. One and one makes three.

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you read detective stories a lot?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I did, and — ah — in Inyo County, I read a couple of Perry Mason’s (Unintelligible) and — ah —
some — ah — What was (Unintelligible) I read The Creepers.

I’ve read The Creepers — find out how you guys work.

SERGEANT McGANN: You did.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

SERGEANT McGANN: I don’t think (Unintelligible) true.

You know, I was involved in a case, or it’s been some years ago, and it — it (Unintelligible) detective (Unintelligible) detective. It went in another magazine, too, but it wasn’t anything like what really happened.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No. I know it’s not, because like in The Creepers, one murder happened and a detective got on the case and before — and he (Unintelligible) at least five murders.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But when they (Unintelligible) it, ah, you’d know it.

SERGEANT McGANN: Not too good, huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, it’s not — you guys would be sure (Unintelligible) every day there would be somebody getting shot.

No. I wouldn’t come on Thanksgiving if I were you, and I really don’t think I’m going to be much help.

SERGEANT McGANN: I think you are. I’d like to think so.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I’m — I’m telling you, I’m not going to be much help.

SERGEANT McGANN: I think your eyes are giving you away. I think you are going to give me some help.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: They aren’t giving me away this time because —

SERGEANT McGANN: I know —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I know I’m (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: I know you want to tell me.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You know I want to?

SERGEANT McGANN: Because if it was on my mind, I’d want to tell you, if you were sitting in my spot.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Okay.

So again, who was present at the Tate murder?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well. we’ve already talked about this.

Let’s see now.

I think shortly after they got back up there, they told you who was there and they said that
Charlie and Mr. “X” and three girls —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You said that.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah. (Unintelligible) that’s what I’m telling you — how it went down.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: They drove up to the — not too far from where the gate separates the street from the property. And they, ah, got out of the car and one guy stayed in the car. Three girls and Charlie went into the house.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Wouldn’t it make more sense that one girl stayed in the car and two guys (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, it might make more sense, but this is the way — how I think it happened, the way I heard it while I was sitting around the campfire.

And, ah, the three girls and Charlie go on up and they go in and they cut the telephone wires. They cut some other wires too.

About that time, they get inside the gate and here comes a white car. There’s a young kid in there, about eighteen years old.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Really?

SERGEANT McGANN: Eighteen years old. I think he was seventeen or eighteen.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Eighteen years old.

He wasn’t hurting anybody.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: He’d been there visiting.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: One of the girls in our cell said that he ah, had been visiting the guy that lived in the back.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, in the guest house. Way in the back, you know, way, way in the back. A big house.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh.

SERGEANT McGANN: And —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Like I’ve never been in that house.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

And. ah, they said, “What are you doing here?” And they — Charlie went up to him and shot him. Bang, bang, bang, bang.

Then they went on in the house and they stabbed everybody (Unintelligible)

And it was Charlie, I heard around the campfire, and three girls.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And who were the three girls?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I know one of them.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) who’s that?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, then you’d know what I know.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yean, it really sounds pretty good, except for it doesn’t make sense to me.

SERGEANT McGANN: That what happened.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh?

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s what happened.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It is?

SERGEANT McGANN: Isn’t it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I wouldn’t say so.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, anyway, after they got through, they came outside and they realized that the knife had been lost inside, but they didn’t want to go back. So, they got in the car and because they were all bloody, they decided they’d change clothes.

But somebody came out of a house or the lights went on, and they got afraid that somebody would get their license number or see them, so they took off.

That was around the campfire.

Now, you tell me what you heard around the campfire.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) hum–

Oh, I wasn’t around a campfire. I was in the trailer.

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) Uh huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Same difference.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No, but I was with, ah, a baby. I was taking care of a baby.

SERGEANT McGANN: Whose baby?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: One of the girls.

SERGEANT McGANN: Which girl?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’m not sure.

SERGEANT McGANN: Which girl?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No. It was Zezo. I was babysitting for Zezo.

SERGEANT McGANN: You were babysitting Zezo?

Why were you babysitting Zezo?

Where was Sadie?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know.

All us girls took different turns taking care of the kids. We just sort of like a commune, a big commune (Unintelligible) kids. She didn’t have like a full responsibility for the child.

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh huh (Unintelligible) trailer, maybe campfire, trailer, corral —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, but everybody else was at the campfire. I was in the trailer.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, but there are a lot of echos out there.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) old Leslie heard everything that went on.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum—

I wish they wouldn’t waste the time on me, because I really don’t have anything to say.

SERGEANT McGANN: It’s not a waste of time. I know you want to tell me. You’re just thinking about it. I’ll help you anyway I can, Leslie — anyway I can. But, really, I’m not — I mean I’m not spoofing you, really.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t want you to help me.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I want to, really I — I do (Unintelligible) Are you happy with the way (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You mean in jail?

SERGEANT McGANN: No. Before then, when you were living at the ranch.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, yeah. I liked it.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: You didn’t like a lot of things that went on there, did you, at the ranch?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: There were some things I didn’t particularly agree with.

SERGEANT McGANN: Did you agree with killing nine people?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No. But it wasn’t none of my business

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, but it is your business now. It is very much your business.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That’s what another detective told me.

SERGEANT McGANN: What?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That’s what another detective told me.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I’ll have to agree with you there. I think you’ll have to agree with it too, won’t you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I honestly don’t know much more than the next person — anything more than the next person.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, yes you do, Leslie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What makes you so sure that I do?

SERGEANT McGANN: I’m sure you do. I’m sure. I can look at you and tell that you do.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, a lot of people sure do luck out more than I do in looks.

SERGEANT McGANN: Other people have told us a lot of things, too.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But I haven’t told you nothing.

SERGEANT McGANN: No, but you want to. And again you were a blossoming personality (Unintelligible) people liked you. So they talk — talked a lot, not necessarily to you, but just talking all the time, not even aware you were around. They were talking about it.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) I was around.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) around (Unintelligible) something like that, but they might not have been talking directly to you, but they were just talking and you overheard things.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh uh. I really — I don’t want to say anything, cause if that much importance lies on me, I don’t — I don’t want any part of it.

SERGEANT McGANN: It doesn’t just on you, ah, Leslie. It doesn’t just lie on you alone.

Like I say, we’ve been talking to people all day.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Did you have any success?

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You did?

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Okay. I’m glad to know it.

SERGEANT McGANN: Five people were killed (Unintelligible) killed. It doesn’t sound reasonable to me. I think you’re a reasonable girl and I think you’re pretty level-headed. I think you are pretty darn smart, too.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: How you mean smart?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh?

SERGEANT McGANN: Ah, I think you’re just smart enough to — you knew what happened. We talked this morning. You’ve been around. You managed to stay out of jail pretty much until this Spahn Ranch deal and this Barker Ranch thing.

That takes some smarts, don’t you think?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: To stay out of jail?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, to stay out of — getting killed or raped or robbed or what have you, hitchhiking around

the country.

That’s what you told me you did, you hitchhiked down from San Francisco.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That was only once. I generally had a ride.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I had friends.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And I stayed pretty close to security, because that’s, you know, one of my larger fears.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh. So anyway, that’s that’s (Unintelligible) one thing and your personality is such that people talked around you. You’re not, ah, mental.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Mental?

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, mental.

Like I think the people that went on this killing were.

Don’t you agree, or you don’t just — ah —

You don’t want to go kill five people, do you? Or seven people, or nine people or ten people?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

SERGEANT McGANN: You don’t think it’s right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

I mean, yes, I don’t think it’s right.

SERGEANT McGANN: But yet you sit there and you know the people that were involved in the thing. You know how it

went down.

Correct?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh uh.

SERGEANT McGANN: You (Unintelligible) do. I really think you do.

Do you want to think about it for a day?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, sure.

SERGEANT McGANN: Huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Sure.

But I’m not promising nothing if you come up Friday.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) I’ll take my chances.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You’re not wasting all your time on me, are you?

SERGEANT McGANN: No. I don’t think I’m wasting time at all talking to you. But I’m not, I’m not wasting my time on you. I’ve talked to a lot of people. And I think you know a lot, Leslie, and I don’t — I don’t expect any promises from you.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. Cause I don’t want to make any deals, and I — and I don’t want you to expect anything. If anything, come back Friday expecting me not to say a word.

SERGEANT McGANN: Pardon me.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: If anything, come back Friday not expecting me to say a word. So (Unintelligible) don’t look forward to anything.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’d hate to disappoint you.

SERGEANT McGANN: I don’t think you will. I think you really want to tell me. I think you realize the necessity for it. I don’t think you want to see the people — the people that killed ten, eleven people walk away free.

I really don’t think you want that. Do you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, no.

SERGEANT McGANN: You know, I got in your eyes then that you really didn’t care much whether they did or not.

I just can’t believe that, Leslie. I can’t believe that a girl —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You know, like, here I lived with some people for a year —

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — and they become my whole — you know. I do everything for them and I mean get my own, you know, gratitude out of doing it. It — It wasn’t just like a commune, you know, a group of people.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s right.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It was, like you got to know all the people and — and love them as much as you would your brother or your sister. And it’s a hard thing to have someone all of a sudden say, you know, which — which one of your brothers, you know, did this and that, you know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And have you go, “Well, yes. It was (Unintelligible) you know, so and so and so and so. You know. It — I can’t do it now.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, they are not really your brothers and sisters. You’re a young girl, impressionable
(Unintelligible)

Ah, Charlie — Charlie had a philosophy in which he wanted to recruit people and he got a — young people because they were more pliable to his needs and to his — his goals. Ah, just so to speak, ah, brainwashed them into thinking all these people up there were his brothers and sisters, and they’re not their brothers and sisters.They are not your brothers and sisters.

Ah, Charlie, I think, had a way with words probably and he — and he kind of made this thing set in everybody’s mind, again, because you were young and impressionable.

Do you agree to that — you’re a young girl?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Probably impressionable?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: And molded — He molded you, ah, into thinking these people were your brothers and sisters, and they are not.

So he made — He tried to make out that he was Jesus Christ, which he is not. He’s just a man.

He’s sitting up there in Inyo County jail right now. He’s going to be prosecuted for murder too. Seven of them.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Which ones are those?

SERGEANT McGANN: The Tates and the LaBiancas.

So, he’s a human; He’s not a Jesus Christ. He’s a —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’ll (Unintelligible) you he’s not Jesus Christ. I hadn’t even heard him called that —

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, Leslie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — until —

Honest.

SERGEANT McGANN: Honest?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Honest, until that raid in Barker’s when they said that — they said to me, “Where’s Jesus Christ?”

I says — I said, “Who?”

‘Cause I had never, you know — He spoke, sometimes he spoke words that were, you know, very well spoken. He was a very well spoken person.

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And — But I had never even thought of him like that.

SERGEANT McGANN: He’s been in jail most of his adult life — life and almost all of his juvenile life.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. I know.

SERGEANT McGANN: You knew that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh huh.

But for some reason, that didn’t, you know, phase me one way or the other.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) there are —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I guess it was my upbringing.

SERGEANT McGANN: — because there are people that get (Unintelligible) out of jail. No problem. They — they serve their time for whatever they did and had no problem. Not Charlie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Sounds like he’s been quite a problem.

SERGEANT McGANN: I think anytime you kill that many people, you’ve got to be considered a. problem; no question about it.

And he’s not your brother or your sister — not your brother or your dad or your uncle, cousin.

I really don’t think the things he did up there proved he was much of a friend at all, really.

Now, you may disagree with me. I’m sure you do. But I think you can see what I’m trying to say, that he — that you have no (Unintelligible) of those (Unintelligible) people, all — all those people that did this killing (Unintelligible) no morality at all that I can see.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh hum.

SERGEANT McGANN: You held your own up there. Apparently you did some work because they —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I did a lot.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay. You did a lot of work. I agree. I’m sure you did. I’m sure with your attitude, in — in your way, you probably did a hell of a lot more work than the rest of them did.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I wouldn’t say that.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But I did my share.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, let’s say you held your own anyway.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yes.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Enough to be happy.

SERGEANT McGANN: Enough to be happy. And you, ah —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But you’ve also got to look at it this way: If — if, like you say, he did do some brainwashing, then that means that it’s going to take a while to undo what he did.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) but, still, it’s wrong. It still is wrong.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: ‘Cause he sounded pretty convincing to me.

I can even look back on it now and — and see how, you know, it was.

SERGEANT McGANN: But you think he lied to you a little bit?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay, Leslie, I think he did. He wasn’t the man that he said he was, I don’t think. And he used people.

He used you as a tool to get what he wanted, what he thought he wanted. He wanted to be another Hitler or something, I guess. I don’t know what his final goals were. You may know. I really —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: His final goals don’t matter much from the way it sounds.

SERGEANT McGANN: No. They don’t. They really don’t.

But when he kills people like that and does things with absolutely no cause, there’s something wrong. And the people that went along, there’s something wrong with them, too. Maybe they need help. Maybe they’re sick. I don’t know. Maybe they need help. Maybe they are not sick. Maybe they’re just mean and onery.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: They — if they — if that were true, they’d have to be awfully schizophrenic, ’cause someone mean and onery couldn’t have lived there more than (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I’m — I’m saying that maybe he thought he was doing the right things. He was killing pigs, the middle class white person. Apparently, this was his philosophy, to kill the middle class white people and upper class of white people, I suppose. I don’t know where he drew the line.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That’s cold-blooded.

SERGEANT McGANN: Sure is. But that’s what he wanted to do. It’s not right either. It just isn’t right and I don’t think you think it’s right either, down deep in your own mind and in your own heart.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Do you read my mind?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I’m not sure.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What do you think it’s saying?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, what I think it’s saying — it’s not right. Down deep — way back there —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That might take us a couple of weeks to reach back there —

SERGEANT McGANN: Ah–

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But at least a nice turkey dinner at home with your family.

SERGEANT McGANN: Leslie, I’ve worked on this thing so hard. When did it happen —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Four months.

SERGEANT McGANN: Four months. I haven’t had a vacation. My vacation was cancelled.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, you’ll get a longer one.

SERGEANT McGANN: I needed one then.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh?

SERGEANT McGANN: I needed one then.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh.

SERGEANT McGANN: After a month on this case, I — after the first month, I needed one.

But that’s — that’s neither here nor there.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, it’s looking pretty good for you (Unintelligible) coming to an end.

SERGEANT McGANN: I hope so. I certainly hope so.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, you told me that you got just about everything.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, we got a lot, but we need more. We need more. A good detective never rests his case until he’s got everything.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You wouldn’t settle for one?

SERGEANT McGANN: No way. We’d settle for two. We’ve got two now.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Did the girl get immunity?

SERGEANT McGANN: Hu hu.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: She didn’t?

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t believe she’s telling you the truth about (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: I think so. Yeah.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You do?

SERGEANT McGANN: I know so.

I can’t tell you how I know, but I know she’s telling the truth.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Okay. Well, I mean — I don’t care.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

Well, I’d tell you if I could, Leslie. I really would.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I don’t want —

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t want to know nothing anymore. I don’t care.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you know some things, Leslie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh. I’m forgetting.

SERGEANT McGANN: No. I don’t want you to forget. I want you to (Unintelligible) Why don’t you tell me?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I honestly don’t know what happened in that house.

SERGEANT McGANN: You know who went out there, though. That’s what’s important to me right now.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, the more I try to remember it, the more I forget.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, no (Unintelligible) that’s not right either; that’s not true now.

Let’s be honest with each other. Huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What?

SERGEANT McGANN: Let’s be honest with each other. You do know who went up there that night. You know some of the facts, too, as to what happened.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: How come I have to know?

SERGEANT McGANN: Because you do. That’s why (Unintelligible) why am I here; what am I (Unintelligible)

Because you know. That’s why.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Even if I tell you I know that Charlie didn’t go, then that means I wasn’t telling you the truth.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, Leslie, still in your own mind and — ah — you may (Unintelligible) out oh me here in the next day or two or (Unintelligible) die in the next fifteen minutes. I don’t know —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But I honestly —

SERGEANT McGANN: I think you are really trying to protect Charlie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No. I honestly —

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

He may be a father image to you — I don’t know what — or big brother image or something. I really don’t know what is — what it is now. But I think if you’ll really reach back in your mind, you’ll realize he not — not that father, not that brother. At least, not one that you’d really want to have. Ah, I — I just don’t think so. Maybe I’m wrong, but I think you can reach back in your mind and know that I’m telling you the truth. I mean you’ll realize it’s the truth too, if you’d just think about it. So —

Maybe you’re trying to protect him for that reason. I don’t know if that’s it or not. That’s — My crystal ball tells me that might be it.

I know that Charlie was there and I (Unintelligible) one of the girls was there. I got (Unintelligible) that it could be Marnie Reeves. I don’t know. You know. You know who the other girl was and who the guy was.

Right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh?

SERGEANT McGANN: Right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It could be. It could be, but I couldn’t say for sure. I’d like to tell you that it could be, but I couldn’t tell you for sure. It could be because I’m not sure.

SERGEANT McGANN: You can say for sure it was because I — you know you can.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You must feel like taking me and bashing me against the wall –“Talk –”

SERGEANT McGANN: No —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: “– talk, talk.”

SERGEANT McGANN: No, I don’t, Leslie. I —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You’ve got a lot of patience.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you’ve got to have patience sometimes.

I think — ah — I think you know what I’ve been telling you is the truth.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, if it is, it’ll start sinking in.

SERGEANT McGANN: All right. That fair enough.

I will help you. I — I will. Ah —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What do you mean, you’ll help me?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I’m trying to help you get squared — If you want to get helped — if you want to go — I mean, whatever you want to do, I’ll try to help you with whatever you want to do.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You mean if I (Unintelligible) to get out of here?

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I know what I have to do when I get out of here. I’ll have to buy — ah — a wig with greying hair it and get a pair of glasses and walk around like a librarian for the next ten years.

SERGEANT McGANN: No, you wouldn’t, Leslie. You really wouldn’t.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Sounds like it from the way you people are getting —

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, we’ll — we’ll wrap it up.

But, we’ve got to have — we’ve got to know everything about everybody before we can wrap it up completely.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

I guess that was the one I was thinking about. It slipped my mind when I talked to you. Well, I guess it was a little while ago we talked about it.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum. I’ve never even heard (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Well anyway, he’s dead.

But if we get them all wrapped up, no problem. You don’t have to worry.

And then again (Unintelligible) I’ll help you when you get out. I’ll do what I can. Whatever you want to do or try to do I can help you with. That’s true.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: I’m not, you know, shooting you a line of baloney or anything.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t feel up to it (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: You tired?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, a little. I — I drank a lot of coffee today — about seven cups.

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you have that card I gave you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum. Got it here in my pocket.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) Can you read that (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: “If no one answers exchange on front of card. ask for DHQ.”

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh huh. Detective Headquarters Division. See, our office is closed normally at night.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: “Tell whoever answers to contact McGann at home.”

SERGEANT McGANN: Tell them you would like to talk to (Unintelligible) Okay?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: Will you do that for me? I mean, if — if you decide tonight or anytime tonight or anytime tomorrow or anytime tomorrow night.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It won’t be anytime tomorrow or tomorrow night (Unintelligible) you’ll have a nice Thanksgiving.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

See you Friday.,huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Okay, if you want to.

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you want a (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, I’d love one.

I almost forgot what I look like.

SERGEANT McGANN: Why don’t you have a seat out here for a minute and I’ll get you (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Okay (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay (Unintelligible)

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Where’s (Unintelligible) oh, I thought you had it (Unintelligible)

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: (Unintelligible) said I had it.

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: I only had (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: (Unintelligible)

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) Dave.

SERGEANT McGANN: What’s his last name?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I didn’t know their last names.

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you know (Unintelligible) last name?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well —

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum–

MISS VAN HOUTEN: “Certified Carpenter.”

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum.

Says: “Contents. Carpenter noted.”

That’s the Captain here.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Very interesting. I guess he puts his stamp on stuff,

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But as I recall, I think Dave had left —

SERGEANT McGANN: What?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: If I recall, I’m pretty sure Dave left a long time ago.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well — But, of anybody, I’d suspect him.

That guy — whooooo —

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That’s one person you wouldn’t mess with for a second.

SERGEANT McGANN: I’m not convinced that there was a man on the deal, anymore. other than Charlie.

I’ve got some additional information. I’m not positive there was another man there. There may have been. There may just have been three girls and Charlie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But how many men were murdered there?

SERGEANT McGANN: Two men.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Two men and three women?

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, three men — three men and two women (Unintelligible) with the gun, which Charlie had. You know, he was ten feet tall with the gun.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, did it look like they had lined them all up?

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: It seems like one of them could take the gun away then.

SERGEANT McGANN: Nobody is going to fight against a gun. If they realize they’re going to get killed no matter what happens, then they might run, which they did run, and then they got shot when they ran.

You know that. I’m sure you heard all about it.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Honest, I didn’t.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, Leslie. I think you did.

You remember what I talked about the other night about the guns and — and Charlie firing the gun up there at the ranch and with all those other guys too.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: And I’ve still got that picture–

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: If I show it to you will you tell me one or the other if — if you ever saw Charlie fire a gun that looked like that one, when I show you, even though other guys fired it, too. Will you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I can tell you that I know that the gun was at the ranch because you said it had a long barrel. Right?

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And I remember I saw a gun like that that was — it was weird looking. I mean, you know — It was funny looking, but —

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, it’s not one you put together? You don’t put it together?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh huh.

SERGEANT McGANN: It’s a pistol and it’s long.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. It’s — it’s like a regular old gun —

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But the barrel sticks out about six inches longer, it looked like, than a normal one.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I saw a gun up there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Charlie used to fire it out there. In fact, it really was his personal weapon, because he carried it around with him, and had people that saw him carry it around with him. Some people saw him shoot it.

All I want you to do is look at it and see if you saw him shoot the weapon out there.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What good would that do?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, it shows one point — that he did shoot the gun.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: But, you already know that he shot it.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I think he did.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, you think he did?

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh huh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Now, I couldn’t say for sure.

SERGEANT McGANN: You could say you saw him or didn’t see him.

Right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Possibly. But I’m not. I don’t think I would like to do that. That sounds too serious — I mean — you know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I am serious. I’m deadly serious.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah. I know, but I don’t — like I wouldn’t want to — I wouldn’t want to do something like
that.

SERGEANT McGANN: I’m here because I’m serious.

Five people were killed and they shouldn’t have been killed with no reason. And then, there were two people the following night killed that shouldn’t have got killed.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh huh.

And it was done in a horrible way.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, it didn’t make any difference how it was done. It was done in a horrible way, but it doesn’t make any difference, regardless of how it was done.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: One girl told me that one of the guys had a black hood on his head. Did he?

SERGEANT McGANN: No. Who told you that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well —

SERGEANT McGANN: One of the girls here?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah.

SERGEANT McGANN: How did they know?

Has somebody been telling them things?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I was going to ask —

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — them. I says if you know —

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, it’s okay.

Listen, I — I’ve brought a little piece of cake in here for Leslie. Is — is that going to be against the rules? I’ll hide it if it is.

Okay, okay, okay. All — all right. Thanks.

Lieutenant’s got to get in for a minute. (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Should we go? Should I leave?

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) Hi.

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Hi.

SERGEANT McGANN: How are you?

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Fine. (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: (Unintelligible) all I want to do is get that (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) you know. It was just a term that was used.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah. But, of — of course the middle class person, I know they’re called pigs, but not — in addition to the police, didn’t they?

I mean, they just didn’t just (Unintelligible) they called middle class America pigs, didn’t they?

Wasn’t that Charlie’s definition?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum — hum — sort of, but —

SERGEANT McGANN: That puts a lot of people under the name of pigs.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Probably just — ah — the whole entire population of the United States.

SERGEANT McGANN: It didn’t include you — you guys up there, apparently. You — you came from probably a middle class family, didn’t you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uhhum, lower middle class, but —

SERGEANT McGANN: So that included you too, really,and your parents.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you have any brothers and sister?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hu hu.

They could be maybe after me.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you knew — you knew. They talked freely in front of you, Leslie, and you know what they said.

Charlie might think you’re a dummy, but I don’t.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah, if you want to, sure. (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible) I keep eating it and I’m really very full.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’m trying to figure this out.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’ve got it.

Do you know what happened at Sadie’s Court appearance?

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) it was just for arraignment. In other words, they set a — set a time and date for the trial.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s all they did.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: All they did was appear in court (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Was hers a private one too, or was it open to the public?

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) open to the public.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I think the only public that would want to go see it are all in jail.

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s more than likely true.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Have you seen Bobby Beausoleil?

SERGEANT McGANN: Beausoleil?

No. I’ve seen him. I haven’t talked to him.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You’ve seen him though?

How does he look?

Is he doing pretty good?

SERGEANT McGANN: I guess so.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Can’t I just tell you that I’m not going to tell you who was there.

SERGEANT McGANN: I don’t think you want to do that. I think you want to tell me who was there.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: If I’d wanted to, I would.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I’m waiting. I’m giving you the opportunity. You do want to tell me.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I do?

SERGEANT McGANN: Uh huh.

You know you do and I think you know all the names of people that were there, and you know —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh?

SERGEANT McGANN: And you know who they were.

Correct? Huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No. Mine would be a guess.

SERGEANT McGANN: No, it wouldn’t be a guess. It would be a pretty educated guess as to who you heard was there. And that’s all I wanted to know.

You know what I want to know.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I know —

SERGEANT McGANN: And you —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: — but I don’t want to tell.

SERGEANT McGANN: — and you know.

Well — but why don’t you want to tell me?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Because I don’t know for sure.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, what did you hear. That’s all.What did you hear around the campfire or wherever you happened to be — in the trailer or in the (Unintelligible) or wherever you were?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hu hu.

SERGEANT McGANN: You heard.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I heard that it had happened.

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) you heard — you heard the people that did it, Leslie. You know who did it.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: How could I know who did it if — if I wasn’t there?

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you heard who did it.

They talked freely about it when they got back that night, the next day, and for days following.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And they only talked freely about it with me?

SERGEANT McGANN: No. And they talked about it freely with other people, too.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Have you asked them?

SERGEANT McGANN: I’ve asked some of the other people but I’m not sure who all was there. But I know you
were.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’m not going to say nothing.

SERGEANT McGANN: Are you still protecting Charlie?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Huh?

SERGEANT McGANN: You are still protecting Charlie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hu hu.

SERGEANT McGANN: Huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hu hu.

(Unintelligible) there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you know Charlie was there (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I could swear on a stack of Bibles that he wasn’t there, to my knowledge.

SERGEANT McGANN: Charlie’s your father image and why, I don’t know. How you could possibly want a — ah– cold-blooded killer as your father image, I’ll never know.

He’s a killer. You know he’s a killer. He’s a vicious cold-blooded killer.

In addition, he kills for nothing no reason. He’s worse than an animal. An animal at least kills for food. He didn’t eat the people up there.

Is that the kind of father image you want?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, why then are you taking his doctrine, or following his doctrine?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know for sure that he was there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

What did you hear? What did you hear sitting around the campfire up there about that?

Everyone whose name that was mentioned, okay, you don’t have positive knowledge. You didn’t see them commit these acts.

What did you hear (Unintelligible) as to who was there. You heard, Leslie. You know you did.

You saw Charlie shoot this gun, this particular gun I’m telling you about, up there at the ranch.

This gun was used in the murders, along with —

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I didn’t know that.

SERGEANT McGANN: — along with a lot of bayonets that they used to do the actual stabbings.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: See, you’re telling me things that I didn’t know.

SERGEANT McGANN: You knew they — who went on the murders though, because they told you. They told you how they killed them and the whole thing. At least, they told you they killed them. They told you they got five “piggies”.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, the first I heard about it was on the TV.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you were taking care of one of the girl’s babies, Zezo to say that they saw it because I — I’m not saying anything.

Now, Leslie, look, I know you did see it, though. And you are credible.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You mean I’m good (Unintelligible)?

SERGEANT McGANN: No. I mean you’re honest. You were there and you saw this.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What’d I see?

SERGEANT McGANN: You saw him firing this gun.

Correct?

Didn’t you? Huh?

Sadie’s already told fifteen people in this jailhouse that she was there; she took part in it and everything else.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Didn’t she mention anybody else?

SERGEANT McGANN: No, she didn’t, except for Charlie and Katie.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: She mentioned Charlie and Katie?

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s right.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And herself?

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And nobody else?

SERGEANT McGANN: No.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, that was pretty (Unintelligible) of her.

SERGEANT McGANN: Sure was, wasn’t it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That right there should be enough for you.

SERGEANT McGANN: Not enough. There’s more people involved.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: More what?

SERGEANT McGANN: There were more people involved. At least one more girl and maybe one more guy, and we need to know who they were. You know if there was another girl or if there was another guy. I’m sure there was one more girl, but I’m not sure there’s one more guy.

You also saw Charlie shoot this gun up there.

If you let these people run around loose on the streets and kill people and do these things again-

Do you want them on the streets again?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, no.

So actually, all you want is the name of one more girl.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yeah. And a guy if he was there, if another guy was there. That’s right.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Seems like if Sadie was going to talk so freely, she would have mentioned everybody.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I’m sorry. I wish she would but she didn’t.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That’s incredible.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I’m, I’m sorry. That’s the truth. I’m not I’m not lying to you.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: You know, I — It doesn’t matter to me if you were or not.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, I’m not. You know I’m not.

Getting down to the nitty gritty. The Family is no longer in being way it was.

She had no — no hesitation about talking about it to everybody in the jail here. I know darn good and well she talked to you.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Did she tell people that in the jail too?

SERGEANT McGANN: She sure as hell did.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: She said they —

SERGEANT McGANN: Killed five people (Unintelligible) the one. Me, number one, and she said, “And I went out the next night and killed two more,” you know, the ones up in the hills.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Sadie said she did that?

SERGEANT McGANN: That’s right. Sadie Mae Glutz, aka Susan Atkins.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: What is AKA?

SERGEANT McGANN: Also known as.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum. She sort of wrote out her own — ah — ticket.

SERGEANT McGANN: And she said Katie was there and I know it’s Marnie Reeves and you know it’s Marnie Reeves. You know the other girl too

It’s funny how they’ll let you — they’ll let you sit everything out. They’ll let you sit the whole works out and you can sit up there for twenty years if you want to for the next — your natural life.

If that’s what you want, Leslie, that’s fine and dandy, but I don’t really think you want that.

You’re no dummy. When you get down to the nitty gritty, that old Family jazz goes right out the window.

I’m serious. Don’t laugh.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I believe you and I don’t see how it could possibly get back together if everyone’s doing all that stuff. But I have nothing to say.

It sounds like you’ve got it pretty well wrapped up.

SERGEANT McGANN: No. I don’t have it wrapped up yet. I don’t know who the rest of the people are. That what I need you to tell me. I need to know if you saw Charlie shooting a certain gun and I need to know where the weapons are buried that were used.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I don’t know where the weapons are, honest.

SERGEANT McGANN: Okay.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: And — ah — and I won’t — I won’t say nothing about the picture. I won’t even look at it because I don’t want to be in that type of a situation. I know I don’t have much choice but —

SERGEANT McGANN: You’re in that type of situation now.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Yeah, I know it but still I don’t want to be in that type — I — I don’t want to look at it.

And I — And I’ll tell you that from what I’ve heard, you guys don’t have the other girl that was there.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, are you speaking of Marnie, now? We don’t have her in custody yet, but we know who she is.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I’m not talking about Marnie.

SERGEANT McGANN: You’re not talking about Marnie.

Were you leveling the other night when you told me that Linda, the new girl, was the other one or were you spoofing me?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Hum. I don’t know for sure.

SERGEANT McGANN: What did you hear?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I heard that there was another girl.

SERGEANT McGANN: What’s her name?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I was spoofing you.

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum? What’s her name? Is it Linda?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who then?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I don’t know.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who was the other one that you heard was up there?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: How’d you know there were three girls and one guy?

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible) Sadie said.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Three girls and one guy.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, she said three girls and Charlie.

Who was the other girl? You know. Huh? Who was it?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Can’t you ask Sadie?

SERGEANT McGANN: (Unintelligible)

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Why can’t you?

SERGEANT McGANN: Because I can’t talk to her.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, her lawyer won’t let you?

SERGEANT McGANN: Because of the rules of evidence.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh.

SERGEANT McGANN: She’s being represented by an attorney.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: When do I get to be represented by an attorney?

SERGEANT McGANN: You weren’t there.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Who was the other girl?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’m not going to tell you.

SERGEANT McGANN: You know who it was, Leslie. You know who it was and I can’t for the life of me see why you want to protect a bunch of killers. Why do you?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I’m protecting myself.

SERGEANT McGANN: You’re not protecting yourself. You weren’t there.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I know I wasn’t there, but I’m protecting my — I see it as I’m protecting myself.

SERGEANT McGANN: How do you see that?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Because, if Zero was suddenly found playing Russian Roulette, I could be found playing Russian Roulette.

SERGEANT McGANN: You aren’t going to be found playing Russian Roulette. We’ll give you twenty-four hour protection go out Scot free.

You know that as well as I do.

That’s the truth. I do need you. I have — I have other things I could be doing now important to the case but I think this is more important right now.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, I’m not going to tell you so why don’t you go do your other things.

SERGEANT McGANN: No. You are going to tell me, I think. I think you want to tell me.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Not today.

SERGEANT McGANN: When are you going to tell me, tomorrow?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

SERGEANT McGANN: Sunday?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No.

SERGEANT McGANN: Monday?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: No. I’m not going to.

SERGEANT McGANN: Period?

Why not?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Because I don’t know.

SERGEANT McGANN: You do know. You were there. After the thing happened, you heard them talk about it. You know who was there.

You are carrying all the weight on your shoulders.

Is that right?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh uh.

SERGEANT McGANN: Yes, you are. You’re carrying all those other people’s worlds on your shoulders too. It’s ridiculous.

Charlie doesn’t give two hoots about the people that were up there. They were a means to an end with Charlie. And you were part of that means. You’re no dummy. You could see that. He used people.

You, yourself, said you went over with this — What is it? The Satans? You went with that bike group.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, you, yourself, said you went over there and (Unintelligible) of the Family for awhile.

You didn’t need the Family.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Uh huh. But, I’m still not going to tell you (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Do you think you’re doing the right thing?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Well, what do you think?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: I think you’d better go work on your other things, because I’m not — I’m not budging.

SERGEANT McGANN: You think these people ought to get away with killing all these people, huh?

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Well, if they did it, you’ll be able to prove it without me and (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: Can’t do it.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: The whole thing rests on my shoulders.

SERGEANT McGANN: The other people do.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: That would amount to one girl.

SERGEANT McGANN: Oh, there’s some other people too. We need more than one. We have some now.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Some what?

SERGEANT McGANN: Some people to testify they heard things.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh.

SERGEANT McGANN: But you just can’t have one or two. We need more than one or two.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Oh, (Unintelligible) I don’t (Unintelligible)

SERGEANT McGANN: You know, if you want to ride all your beefs alone, that’s your business, but I think you’re being very foolish to do it.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Then, I’m a fool.

SERGEANT McGANN: Hum — whatever’s right, I guess.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Umhum.

SERGEANT McGANN: I’m going to give you some time to think about it. I’ll come back and talk to you later.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Today?

SERGEANT McGANN: Either today, tomorrow or Sunday.

MISS VAN HOUTEN: Okay.

I hope you find some stuff without me. because I’m (Unintelligible) is it all right if I take these?

SERGEANT McGANN: Umhum.

Ready?