LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, 1970 9:50 A.M.
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THE COURT: All parties, counsel and jurors are present.
Do you have any additional cross-examination, Mr. Kanarek?
MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
THE CLERK: Would you state your name, please.
THE WITNESS: Juan Flynn, John Flynn to Americans.
JUAN FLYNN,
the witness on the stand at the time of the adjournment, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:
CROSS EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. KANAREK:
Q: Mr. Flynn, you were telling us yesterday that — I hope you were telling us yesterday — how you said you were aware and cautious while you were at the Meyers Ranch.
A: Yes.
Q: And you were aware and precautious because you were afraid of Mr. Manson, is that right?
A: Well, I said I was aware and precautious of the subject that was always brought up.
Q: What does that mean?
A: Well, the conversations, you see, all the time was, you know, by various members of the Family, you know, like, “We are going to hang you up on a tree like this and then we all are going to run back and stick knives in you,” you know.
Q: Now, you understand the English language, is that right, Mr. Flynn?
A: Not as well as you.
Q: Pardon?
A: I do.
Q: You understand the English.
Do you think you need an interpreter?
A Spanish-American interpreter in order to understand questions.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Argumentative, your Honor.
MR. KANAREK: Maybe he cannot understand, your Honor. If he does not, I would be more than glad to make a motion that there be an interpreter, because I don’t want the prosecutor —
MR. BUGLIOSI: We are not arguing now, Mr. Kanarek.
THE COURT: You may answer the question.
MR. KANAREK: May I have an answer to the question?
THE WITNESS: I don’t think I need an interpreter.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: One thing you don’t need is a prosecutor, that is right; that is for sure?
A: You are saying that.
Q: Pardon?
A: You are saying that.
Q: Mr. Flynn —
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Kanarek, let’s get on with it.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Mr. Flynn, I am asking you a question.
Do you need a prosecutor?
THE COURT: That is ambiguous.
MR. BUGLIOSI: It is a ridiculous question, your Honor. It is argumentative.
THE COURT: Let’s get on with it, Mr. Kanarek.
MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.
Q: Mr. Flynn, would you listen to this question and please answer the question.
My question now has to do with you and what you did to protect your physical self.
Now, you were afraid of Mr. Manson while you were at the Meyers Ranch; is that right?
A: Well, yes.
Q: All right.
My question now is asking for what you did. I am not interested in words, hanging people, or what was said. I am now asking for physical movements, for what you did to protect your physical body, the body in which you live.
Now, would you tell us what you did to protect yourself because you say you were aware and you were precautions?
Now, what did you do to protect your physical body?
A: I think.
Q: Is that question clear?
A: I think. Yes.
Q: All right.
A: I think thoughts, you know. With thought and thinking.
Q: Is that your answer?
A: Well, that was the answer that I found.
I thought of myself, you know, and I started believing what he was relating, Mr. Manson, you know, what he was talking about, you know, and so I just left.
That is my answer, you know.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, may that be stricken as not responsive?
THE COURT: Motion is denied.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Mr. Flynn, you were at Meyers Ranch before you left; right?
A: I left the Meyers Ranch and I went to Barkers Ranch.
Q: Would you listen to the question, Mr. Flynn?
A: I was before what?
Q: Before you left the Meyers Ranch, you were at the Barkers Ranch; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: All right.
Now, would you tell us, after you left the Spahn Ranch, you went to Meyers Ranch; right?
A: I went to Barkers Ranch.
Q: After you left the Spahn Ranch you went to Barkers Ranch?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, throughout the time that you were at Barkers Ranch, would you tell us how long you were at Barkers Ranch?
A: I couldn’t tell you how long but I can tell you that I was there.
Q: Could you give us an estimate of time?
A: Over a month.
Q: Over a month you were at Barkers Ranch?
A: Yes.
Q: And during that month Mr. Manson was at the Barker Ranch; is that correct?
A: Well, between the Barker Ranch and the Meyers Ranch, you see, because that was the population, you know, the populated area, you see. There was Barker Ranch and the Meyers Ranch, you see. And I visited both of them.
Q: Were you at the Barker Ranch for a month, Mr. Flynn?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, during the month that you were at Barker Ranch, was Mr. Manson also at the Barker Ranch?
A: Yes, Mr. Manson came down to the Barker Ranch, yes.
Q: While you were there for a month; is that correct?
A: Over a month, yes.
Q: Now, during the time that you were at the Barker Ranch for this month, would you tell us what you did, if anything, to protect yourself, your physical person, your body, from attack.
A: From attack?
Q: Yes, from being hurt, so that you would not be hurt, you would not be shot, you would not be cut.
MR. BUGLIOSI: That assumes a fact not in evidence, that he was threatened at Barker Ranch.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. KANAREK: He doesn’t have to be threatened.
My question was as to his state of mind.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: While you were at the Barker Ranch, Mr. Flynn, did you do anything to protect your physical body from being hurt?
A: Yes, I started carrying a big shotgun.
Q: All right, now, when did you start carrying the shotgun?
A: As soon as I got there, you see.
Q: All right —
A: You see —
Q: Now, just a minute, you started carrying the shotgun as soon as you got there?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was the reason you stayed there for this period of a month? You had the shotgun, you could have left, right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have the shotgun with you 24 hours a day?
A: Most of the 24 hours. I slept right next to it.
Q: All right, and what is the reason you carried the shotgun?
A: Well, I felt that, you know, I could find some use for it.
Q: Well, what was the reason?
A: The reason?
Q: Yes.
A: Well, I just thought, you know, I felt that there was a reason, you see, and the reason was Mr. Manson.
Q: All right. Tell us what the reason is, why you were afraid of Mr. Manson?
A: Because of the subject, you know, that was brought up every time that, you know, I talked with Mr. Manson.
Q: All right, now, for a whole month you carried this shotgun with you; you slept with it?
A: Over a month.
Q: You slept with the shotgun right next to you for a whole month?
A: Yes, it either would be next to me or across, like that, when I sleep, you know, so I could —
Q: So you could what?
A: So I could pick it up.
Q: Now, if you had this fear of Mr. Manson, why did you take a whole month to leave the Barker Ranch?
A: Well, you know, I like the place, you know, and the — you know, there was a lot of physical activity, you see, you see, and not at the Barker Ranch, you know, but in the mountains, you know, and I liked the place, you know, I liked the people.
I did not want to think anything bad, you know, but I felt, you know, that I should, so I did.
Q: You liked the physical activity at the Barker Ranch?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was the physical activity you liked?
A: I had a lot of places to walk to, you know, mountains to climb.
I had, you know, just a lot of physical stuff that, you know — it was nice.
Q: Now, you had this gun with you at all times, right?
A: I would not say at all times, but most of the times.
Q: Most of the times?
A: And whenever I decided I should close my eyes to sleep and rest, then I put it next to me, or throw it over my legs like that, you know.
Q: I see. Now, where did you get this shotgun?
A: The shotgun was there, you see.
I never carried a weapon before in Los Angeles or California until I got there, you know, then I felt that there was —
Q: The weapon was there, and where did you get the weapon?
A: At the Barker Ranch.
Q: But where? Where at the Barker Ranch?
A: This was in the cabin.
Q: It was in the cabin. Did you ever shoot the weapon?
A: Well, I think I fired one shot sometime, but I don’t like to fire too much, you know.
Q: Did you ever load the weapon?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: Where did you get the ammunition for the weapon?
A: There was ammunition there.
Q: Where?
A: At the Barker Ranch.
Q: Where at the Barker Ranch, Mr. Flynn, think carefully.
A: At the cabin, you know.
Q: Where in the cabin, Mr. Flynn?
A: Well, we had some drawers where we kept some figs, and we kept them in there, too.
Q: “We kept” — what in there, Mr. Flynn?
A: Figs.
Q: Where did you get the ammunition, Mr. Flynn?
A: The ammunition was at the Barker Ranch at the cabin in boxes, and the shotgun was at the Barker Ranch in the cabin when I got there.
Q: Where in the cabin was the ammunition, Mr. Flynn?
A: Well, there was boxes of it with the figs.
Q: Where? Where in the cabin?
A: In some drawers that were there, that were in there, you know, in this thing like that, you know.
Q: What kind of drawers?
MR. BUGLIOSI: That’s immaterial, your Honor, irrelevant.
MR. KANAREK: I have a right to interrogate, your Honor.
THE COURT: I don’t know what you mean by what kind of drawers.
Reframe the question.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: These drawers were in what kind of a — what kind of —
A: Frame.
Q: Pardon?
A: Frame.
Q: What kind of piece of furniture were they in, Mr. Flynn?
A: It was a square box, about this high, and was about like this, you know, and it had four or five drawers, and it was greenish type looking drawers.
Q: Are you finished?
A: Yes.
Q: And in what room was this?
A: This was in the cabin.
Q: What room in the cabin?
A: There was only one room in the cabin.
Q: And you came into the Barker Ranch and you saw this gun, right?
A: Yes.
Q: When you first came to the Barker Ranch?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did you see the gun in the Barker Ranch?
A: In the cabin.
Q: Where in the cabin?
A: Well, I saw it in a lot of places.
Q: When you came into the room and saw it for the first time did you see it in a lot of places?
A: Well, I saw it in one place, you know.
Q: Where?
A: But I could, not be that specific, you see, and say I saw it standing on a corner or standing next to something, you know, or leaning next to something, you know.
But I know that I became aware when I came in the cabin of the gun, you know.
Q: And what part of the cabin was the gun in?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Irrelevant, your Honor. Also asked and answered.
MR. KANAREK: I don’t think there was any answer, your Honor, and I think we have a right —
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, he is arguing!
THE COURT: That will be enough, Mr. Kanarek, you know that is improper. I admonish you, sir.
Objection overruled, you may answer.
What part of the cabin?
THE WITNESS: I cannot be that specific as to say where it was right now, you see, but the cabin is square, and it was in the cabin, this one room, you see.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: In order to get to the Barker Ranch, Mr. Flynn, you have to walk a long way, is that right?
A: Before you get to that cabin? Well, it depends on where you are walking from.
Q: Directing your attention to your method of getting to that cabin. Did you walk to the cabin after you got to the Barker Ranch?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, you tell us that you got this gun when you went into the cabin; is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you went into the cabin, who did you go in the cabin with?
A: I just remember me going in there and noticing the gun.
Q: Who did you go into the cabin with when you went into the cabin for the first time?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Assumes a fact not in evidence.
THE WITNESS: I just remember me going in there.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: You went in alone?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, when you saw this gun, what time of the day or night was it, Mr. Flynn?
A: Well, it was daytime.
Q: Did you walk to the Barker Ranch all alone?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, did you go to the Barker Ranch with other people?
A: When I arrived there, you mean, last year?
Q: What do you think we are talking about, Mr. Flynn?
A: If you are more specific, I might answer you, you know.
Did you say last year, when I arrived there?
Q: That is what I am talking about.
A: Okay.
I went there with Miss Glutz.
Q: Anybody else?
A: No.
Q: And where was Miss Glutz when you walked into the cabin?
A: I don’t know where she was, you know.
Q: You went there with her, though; is that correct?
A: I don’t know where she was.
Q: Well, had you left her immediate presence before you went into the cabin, Mr. Flynn?
A: Yes.
Q: What time of the day or night was it?
A: 10:00 o’clock, 12:00 o’clock.
Q: In the evening or in the morning?
A: In the morning.
Q: Would you tell us where Miss Glutz was the last time you saw her before entering the cabin?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: You entered the cabin and that was the first time you had ever been there; right?
A: No.
Q: How many times had you been there before?
A: Twice.
Q: On these other two occasions, Mr. Flynn, did you see a gun?
A: No.
Q: And directing your attention to this particular time when you said you saw a gun. About how much time was it that you had left the presence of Sadie Glutz before going into the cabin?
A: Would you repeat that question?
Q: Surely.
How much time had elapsed —
A: What is elapsed?
Q: How much time had gone by, Mr. Flynn. How much time had gone by since you were in the immediate presence with Sadie Glutz until you went to the cabin?
A: I don’t know.
Q: Well, was it ten minutes? Ten hours? An hour and forty-five minutes? How much time?
A: I couldn’t tell you.
Q: Well, you came there with Sadie Glutz?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, is there some reason that Sadie Glutz left your immediate presence before you went into the cabin?
MR. BUGLIOSI: That is ambiguous.
THE WITNESS: I don’t know.
THE COURT: He has answered.
MR. KANAREK: Pardon?
THE COURT: Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: I don’t know.
Did you say: Was there a reason why Miss Glutz left me before I went into the cabin?
MR. KANAREK: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I don’t know. I don’t know what reason she had, you know.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: She did leave your immediate presence, though?
A: Yes.
Q: And you don’t know how long it was before you entered the cabin?
A: No.
Q: Now, when you entered the cabin, you saw this gun. Did you do anything with the gun when you entered in the cabin and saw the gun?
A: I just noticed it, you know.
Q: Well, did you do anything? Did you pick it up? Did you pick up the gun at that time when you entered the cabin?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Well, at some time you picked up the gun; isn’t that correct?
A: Well, at some time I picked up the gun.
Q: And did you pick up ammunition at the time that you picked up the gun?
A: I just noticed the gun first, you know.
Q: My question is: Did you pick up any ammunition when you picked up the gun?
A: Well, yes.
Q: What kind of ammunition was it, Mr. Flynn?
A: 12 gauge.
Q: Pardon?
A: 12 gauge.
Q: Did you do anything to make sure that this ammunition fit the gun?
A: Yes.
Q: What did you do?
A: I put two rounds in it.
Q: Then you did pick up the ammunition, is that right, and put two rounds in the gun, right?
A: Yes.
Q: Pardon? Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: All right.
Now, when did you fire that gun during the time that you were at Barker Ranch?
A: Well, I think I just fired it once at some cans.
Q: At what?
A: Some cans.
Q: What?
A: Cans.
Q: When was that?
A: You know, when I fired it, you know. I don’t know the time, you know, or the length of time, or the period or that, you know.
Q: Now, when you picked up the gun, who was present?
Was anyone else present with you when you first picked up the gun?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Well, would you tell us, did you ever go hunting with that gun?
A: No.
Q: Well, when you went up into the mountains, did you hike around the Barker Ranch?
A: Yes.
Q: When you hiked around the Barker Ranch, did you take the gun with you?
A: Oh, I think one or two occasions, you know.
Q: On one or two occasions you took the gun with you?
A: Yes.
Q: But you went hiking quite often; is that correct, Mr. Flynn?
A: Quite often?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: About how many different times did you go hiking while you were at the Barker Ranch?
A: A Lot of times.
Q: Many times? 25, 30 times maybe?
A: More than that.
Q: 50 times?
A: More than that.
Q: 75 times?
A: Something like that.
Q: And on only one or two occasions did you take the gun; right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, on these occasions when you went hiking, Mr. Flynn, did it ever end up that you were hiking up there around the Barker Ranch at night?
A: Well, yes. I went for walks alone, too, at night.
Q: At night?
A: Yes. A couple of days, you know.
Q: And on only two occasions did you bring the gun with you; right?
A: Yes. A couple of times, you know, I took the gun, and brought it right back, you know.
Q: All right.
Now, on these occasions when you went hiking alone, is it a fair statement that Mr. Manson was at the Barker Ranch?
A: Mr. who?
Q: Is it a correct statement, Mr. Flynn, that when you went hiking alone on many, many occasions, you knew that Mr. Manson was at the ranch?
A: You could say that.
Q: Well, it is not for me to say.
Is it true, Mr. Flynn, or is it not true? Would you tell us?
A: Yes.
Q: He was at the ranch and you knew it; right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, you were aware and you were precautious, you tell us.
Now, tell me, how did you protect yourself on these occasions when you were walking alone, no gun, knowing that Mr. Manson was at the ranch? How did you protect yourself on those occasions?
Remember, you only took the gun once or twice you are telling us.
A: Yes.
Well, I picked up a big long stick or something.
Q: Now you were depending on a long stick to protect yourself from Mr. Manson; is that right?
A: You are saying that. I am not saying for Mr. Manson.
Q: Mr. Flynn, are you aware that my only purpose here is to ask you questions? I am not saying it, Mr. Flynn. I am asking you whether certain things are true and asking you to give us answers to questions. I am not saying anything.
A: Okay. What was the question?
Q: My question is: Then on those occasions, you are now telling us, that instead of the gun, thinking of the gun to protect yourself you were thinking of some stick that might or might not be immediately near you in case you were attacked by Mr. Manson; is that right?
A: Well, I did take sticks, you know. Mostly I counted on my physical ability, you know, you see.
Q: All right, now, you’re telling us, is it a fair statement, Mr. Flynn, that you really did not count on this gun to protect yourself; you counted upon the fact that you are six foot five, you are in good physical condition, you weigh what — 100 — 200 pounds — how much do you weigh?
MR. BUGLIOSI: It’s a compound question.
Also it is a misstatement of his testimony, your Honor. The record speaks for itself.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, he interrupted me. I have not finished my question.
THE COURT: Go ahead, complete the question.
MR. KANAREK: Pardon?
THE COURT: Complete the question.
MR. KANAREK: I have not finished but —
THE COURT: That is what I said, complete the question.
MR. KANAREK: Oh, complete it, thank you.
Q: Is it a fact, Mr. Flynn, that you then relied upon the fact you are six foot five, you are in good physical condition, you weigh how much, Mr. Flynn?
MR. BUGLIOSI: That is a compound question.
THE COURT: Well, you are asking questions within questions, Mr. Kanarek. It is confusing.
MR. KANAREK: I submit that is correct, your Honor.
Q: How much do you weigh — I’m sorry, your Honor — how much do you weigh, Mr. Flynn?
A: 187.
Q: Now then, is it a fair statement that you are relying upon your good physical condition, your height of about six foot five, your weight of 187 pounds, you were relying on those factors really.
That is what you relied upon to protect yourself against Mr. Manson, isn’t that right?
MR. BUGLIOSI: That is ambiguous, protect himself against Manson at what time, your Honor?
THE COURT: Overruled, you may answer.
Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: Was I relying on those facts, all that you said?
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Do you understand the question, Mr. Flynn?
A: Yes, yes.
Q: Then, would you answer it, please.
A: Yes.
Q: Pardon?
A: Yes.
Q: And you were not relying on the guns then while you were at the Barker Ranch, to protect yourself from Mr. Manson, is that correct?
A: Not on the gun, but I kept it by me you know, across my legs and next to me.
Q: So you were not relying on the gun to protect yourself, you are telling us now; you were relying on your good physical condition, and so forth?
MR. BUGLIOSI: It’s a misstatement, your Honor.
THE COURT: He may answer.
THE WITNESS: Well, I was not relying on the gun, you see, but the gun was by me all the time, you know, most of the time.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Right. All right, now, then, Mr. Flynn, you are telling us that during this entire period of time then you were aware of some statements that Mr. Manson had made to you about these murders, is that right?
A: Yes, yes.
Q: When did Mr. Manson make these statements to you about these murders?
A: Well, it was a couple of days, you know, after I saw him leave, you know, and, you know, through the television tube, because I saw some on television tube, you see, and, you know, I don’t want to bring in witnesses, you know, but I leave that to you.
Q: Have you answered the question, Mr. Flynn?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, at the time you say that Mr. Manson made statements to you concerning these murders, who was present?
A: Well, Miss Glutz was in the kitchen, and Miss Bluestein and Ouish, you see.
Mr. Manson walked in, he went like this —
THE COURT: You have answered the question.
MR. KANAREK: Pardon?
THE COURT: He has answered the question. Ask your next question.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I don’t believe he answered the question yet, your Honor.
MR. KANAREK: I don’t believe he has either, your Honor, he has not answered the question.
THE COURT: The question was who was present.
MR. KANAREK: I don’t think he was finished.
MR. BUGLIOSI: He is saying these three girls were not present with him at the time he spoke to Mr. Manson.
MR. KANAREK: Mr. Bugliosi is making argument. This is a fact.
THE COURT: Reframe the question, Mr. Kanarek.
Let’s start again.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Now, Mr. Flynn, at the time Mr. Manson made these statements to you would you tell us who was present?
A: Mr. Manson and I.
Q: Just you two, right?
A: Yes.
Q: Nobody else?
A: Nobody else.
Q: And now, would you tell us how — where were you in this room, Mr. Flynn?
A: When Mr. Manson and I were present at the room, where was I?
Q: Yes.
A: I was sitting in the table.
Q: What were you doing?
A: I was eating.
Q: You were eating what?
A: Well, right now, as I remember it, it’s food, you know.
Q: You are playing games with me, Mr. Flynn.
A: No, no, I cannot remember what I was eating, but I was eating at the table.
Q: I see. You don’t remember what you were eating?
A: But I was eating at the table, you see.
Q: I see, and this table is located where?
A: This table?
Q: Yes.
A: If you go into the kitchen, next to the saloon, you go in the kitchen, you see, and the table is right there, right there as you go in the kitchen, the table is right there, right there.
Q: Who made the food for you?
A: Well, I picked it up, you know.
Q: What do you mean you picked it up?
A: I picked it up from the ice box and just, whatever food I got, you know, I picked it up and I was to eat it.
Q: I see, and where was the door to this room, Mr. Flynn?
A: Well, it’s to the front of the building, next to the saloon, you know, on the very last end of the building itself, of the kitchen, you see.
Q: And you were sitting there eating, is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: How long after Mr. Manson came into the room was there a discussion between yourself and Mr. Manson?
A: Mr. Manson walked in —
Q: My question is, how long, now, Mr. Flynn, how long after —
A: Two, three minutes; three minutes.
Q: All right. In this two to three-minute period what did Mr. Manson do before he started talking to you?
A: He went like this, and then they walked out.
Q: He put his hand on your shoulder, brushed your shoulder and walked out?
A: No, I said his shoulder, you see.
Q: He brushed his shoulder — which shoulder did he brush?
A: He brushed his shoulder like this.
Q: He brushed his left shoulder with his right-hand?
A: Yes.
Q: For two to three minutes, and then he walked out?
A: I did not say he walked out.
Q: He did not walk out, what did he do?
A: Well, he grabbed me by the hair like this, you see, where I was eating, you know.
Q: Yes.
A: And when I felt him, it was by the hair like this, and he had a knife by my throat, and he says, “You son-of-a-bitch, don’t you know I’m the one who is doing all these killings?”
You know, and he says, “Are you going to come with me or am I going to have to kill you?” you see.
And I replied, I said, “Well, I’m eating and I’m right here,” you see.
So at this time he says, “Well, if you do me like that, then here, here is the knife, you take it and you kill me,” you see.
So this was the conversation and — do you want to know some more?
Q: Yeah, go ahead.
A: Okay, so then I says, “I don’t want to do you like that”, you know.
And then he says, “Well, if that is the way you feel about it, I want you to go down to the creek to the waterfalls and make love to my girls,” you see, you see.
And so I told him that if I wanted to contract, you know, a nine-month disease case of syphilis or gonorrhea, he would be the first one I would come to see, you see.
And that was with feeling, too, you see.
Q: You yelled it out, right?
A: Well, I’m yelling it at you, you see, because you want to know, you see.
Q: I mean you yelled it out while you were sitting there?
A: Well, this was talk.
Q: Pardon?
A: This was a conversation between me and Mr. Manson.
Q: Now, have you told us the whole conversation now?
A: Well, this, you know, I cannot tell you that when I met Charlie Manson, you know, I talked for all this time, and relate to you all of the conversation, you see — you see — you understand?
Not for two and a half years, or two years, you know, you know.
But I can mark that point because that was one of the points, like the point of Shorty, you know.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, may we approach the bench? May we approach the witness? That witness is not now responding to questions.
THE COURT: I think he was trying to answer your question.
MR. KANAREK: Pardon?
THE COURT: I say, I think he was trying to answer your question, Mr. Kanarek.
MR. KANAREK: I only asked for the conversation at that point, your Honor; he is going on and on in connection with matters that —
I am asking for the conversation at the time he supposedly was in the kitchen with Mr. Manson. That is what I am asking about.
I wonder if your Honor would instruct him to limit his answers to that time. That is all I am asking him about.
THE COURT: I think you invited that response, Mr. Kanarek, by your question.
He asked you if you wanted him to go on, and you said, “Yes,” and he went on.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Now, Mr. Flynn, have you told us everything that was said by you and Mr. Manson when you were in the kitchen on this occasion? That is all I am talking about, Mr. Flynn.
A: Yes, yes.
Q: Now, this you tell us was just a couple of days after you heard about these murders.
MR. BUGLIOSI: That is a misstatement; he did not say that, your Honor.
MR. KANAREK: I believe he did, your Honor.
THE COURT: The witness can answer yes or no or I don’t know.
MR. BUGLIOSI: He is characterizing the witness’ testimony, and the witness’ testimony is reflected in the record. The record speaks for itself.
THE COURT: This is cross-examination, he can ask the question in any form he wants.
THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the question?
THE COURT: Just a moment, sir.
MR. KANAREK: May that be read, your Honor?
THE COURT: Read the last question.
(Whereupon, the reporter reads the pending question as follows:
“Q. Now, this you tell us was just a couple of days after you heard about these murders.”)
THE COURT: That is meant to be a question, is that right, Mr. Kanarek?
MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: This was just a couple of days after the murders, yes.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Now —
A: I would say a couple of days, yes.
Q: Is there some reason, Mr. Flynn, that you did not go to the police and tell the police what Mr. Manson had told you?
A: Well, I, myself, I did not want to believe nothing like that, you see.
Q: You did not want to believe it?
A: No, no.
Q: Did you believe it?
A: Well, it was coming from him, you see, from Mr. Manson, you see.
He told me that, you see, you see, so after he told me that I know, okay, I believed that I know, you see, but I, myself, did not want to believe that really, you know, took place, you know.
Q: All right, so you thought about it and at some time did you believe that it was true?
A: I — yes, I debated it, too.
Q: Pardon?
A: Yes. And I debated it.
Q: And then at some point you believed it was true?
A: Yes.
Q: Will you tell us when you believed it was true?
THE COURT: Just a moment.
Will counsel approach the bench, please?
(Whereupon all counsel approach the bench and the following proceedings occur at the bench outside of the hearing of the jury:)
THE COURT: Mr. Kanarek, I am just afraid that if you pursue this line you are going to get this witness to tell us something like “I believed it when I read Susan Atkins’ confession,” or something like that. So, I caution you to be very, very careful.
MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor, I understand.
I am asking for time only, your Honor.
THE COURT: You had better weigh the benefits to be derived from this line of questioning against the possible reaction of this witness.
MR. KANAREK: I know, but this witness has made very damaging statements.
THE COURT: That is true; and he may make some more damaging statements.
MR. KANAREK: I have that in mind, your Honor. That is why I am framing my questions, asking for times. I am not asking for narrative.
MR. SHINN: Why can’t Mr. Bugliosi approach the witness and explain it to him?
THE COURT: I think that would be wise.
MR. KANAREK: That is perfectly agreeable with me. I would like to approach the witness with him, however.
THE COURT: All right.
He has a tendency to be somewhat spontaneous and somewhat nonresponsive from time to time, and he often leads up to an answer by a rather devious route. So, you have to be very cautious with him.
MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
You can confer with him.
(Whereupon all counsel return to their respective places at counsel table and the following proceedings occur in open court within the presence and hearing of the jury:)
(Mr. Bugliosi and Mr. Kanarek confer with the witness.)
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Now, Mr. Flynn, if you would listen to the question, please.
I am now only asking for time; a day, or an hour of a day, or something like that.
Would you tell me when, in time, you believed what you tell us Mr. Manson told you?
A: Well, when it came out; in the papers and stuff like that.
Q: Mr. Flynn, please. I am asking you to answer time, Mr. Flynn. I am not asking you to describe. I am asking you for a time.
Like right now it is about maybe 10:40, and today, I think, is September the 29th. Now, that is what I am asking for is a time.
THE WITNESS: That I believed?
MR. KANAREK: That’s right.
Q: Would you tell us the time when you believed what you say Mr. Manson told you?
A: Well, I believed this —
Q: Mr. Flynn, I am asking for a time.
Would you think it over in your mind and answer for us a time, a date.
Do you know what I mean by a date?
A: A date, yes. You just told me.
Q: Like April the 13th, 1965, is a date.
Do you understand?
A: Yes.
Q: That is what I am asking you, Mr. Flynn.
A: Well, I don’t know dates, you know. I don’t know no dates.
Q: You don’t keep track of time very well; is that right?
A: Not of dates.
Q: All right.
Now, I am going to ask you the question.
Directing your attention to the time that you say Manson made these statements —
A: Yes.
Q: — would you tell me how many days after that you believed the statements to be true?
Now, that is a number. Tell me how many days.
A: Well, when I was up at the Meyers Ranch —
Q: Would you do the thinking in your head, Mr. Flynn?
A: Okay.
Q: And then tell us.
A: Okay.
Q: After you have done the thinking.
A: Yes.
Q: Will you tell us how many days it was before you — at some time when you believed these statements to be true?
A: I guess about two months later. Okay?
Q: Two months later?
A: Yes.
Q: And that was when you were at the Meyers Ranch; right?
A: Yes.
Q: You had already been to the Barker Ranch; right?
A: Well, I was at the Barker Ranch but I was visiting the Meyers Ranch.
Q: Now, you are telling us it was about two months later.
Now, would you perform the simple arithmetic, timewise, and tell me, taking two months later, what date that was, Mr. Flynn?
MR. BUGLIOSI: It is irrelevant.
He has already testified that he doesn’t know the date. Asked and answered.
MR. KANAREK: He can add two months to the previous time, your Honor.
MR. BUGLIOSI: So can Mr. Kanarek, your Honor.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Well, would that be some time like maybe October the 12th or 14th or 15th, Mr. Flynn?
A: Well, I can tell you about two months, you know, something like that, up at the Meyers Ranch and the Barker Ranch, both.
Q: Oh, now it is the Meyer Ranch and the Barker Ranch?
A: And the Barker Ranch, yes.
Q: I see.
My question, Mr. Flynn, is: At some point in time — at some point in time — you are telling us you believed what Mr. Manson had told you previously; right?
A: Well, it scared me, too.
Q: It scared you?
A: It scared me, too. I believed it and it scared me, too.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, may that portion — well, all right.
Q: Let me ask you: It scared you. Now, at what time did it scare you? When did it scare you? Will you pick a date for us?
A: I can’t pick you no dates. You don’t have no dates up in the mountains, you know. It is just days and nights, you know.
Q: All right.
Then, would you give us an estimate of how many days and nights it was from the first time you say that Mr. Manson said this to you?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Asked and answered, your Honor. He said two months.
MR. KANAREK: No, your Honor.
May I finish? He is interrupting me. If I may, your Honor?
Q: My question is, Mr. Flynn, you are telling us at some point it scared you. Now, my question is different than when you believed it. The question now is: How many days after you heard what you say you saw Mr. Manson say? How many days after that did you get scared?
Tell it to us in months, days, years, I don’t care, but if you would give us an estimate of time, and do the thinking before you tell us how much time was involved until you got scared.
A: Well, it was about two months, you know, of days and nights, and I was at the Barker Ranch and Meyers Ranch, you see. In that place there is where I really became aware and I got scared, you know.
Q: I see.
And that was after you had been at the Barker and Meyers Ranch for some time; is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: And it was two months, it was about two months before you believed it; right?
A: I gave it some thought, you know, although I didn’t want to believe it, you know.
Q: My question is not whether you wanted to believe it, Mr. Flynn.
It was two months before you believed it; is that correct, Mr. Flynn?
A: Well, two months after this little incident with Mr. Manson up at the Barker Ranch and Meyers Ranch, in that area, you see, I got, you know, to see, you know, things that got me scared, you know.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, may that be stricken as not responsive?
I am asking for time, your Honor, I am not asking for —
THE COURT: I think it is responsive, Mr. Kanarek.
We will take our morning recess at this time.
Ladies and gentlemen, do not converse with anyone or form or express any opinion regarding the case until it is finally submitted to you.
The Court will recess for 15 minutes.
(Recess.)
THE COURT: All parties, counsel and jurors are present.
You may continue, Mr. Kanarek.
MR. KANAREK: Thank you, your Honor.
Q: Mr. Flynn, how long — how long had you been at the Barker and Meyers Ranches before you felt scared —
Now, that is asking for time, Mr. Flynn.
A: You could say a month or two.
Q: And from the time that you first heard what you say you heard Mr. Manson say until this month or two, you were not afraid, right?
A: I did not want to be afraid.
Q: Mr. Flynn, would you answer my question, please?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You understand English enough to answer these questions?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, would you please listen to the question and answer the question.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, may the last question be read back? It didn’t have anything to do with whether he wanted to or not.
THE COURT: Reframe the question.
MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.
Q: Then, Mr. Flynn, is it true, that for about two months after Mr. Manson said what you said he said, you began to be afraid, is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: All right, at the same time — at the same time that you became afraid you became, you believed what you say Mr. Manson said, is that correct?
A: Yes, I believed it.
Q: Now, you know the difference between being scared and being believed (sic), those English words, those words in the English language, you understand, is that correct?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Kanarek’s statement is totally ambiguous, “being scared and being believed.”
MR. KANAREK: I will rephrase it.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: You know what the word, believed, means, is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you know what the word, scared, means in the English language?
A: Yes.
Q: Then would you tell me, Mr. Flynn, why is it that you grabbed the gun when you first came up with Sadie Glutz if you weren’t scared? It took you two months, you tell us, to get scared.
Would you tell me why you grabbed the gun at that time?
A: At that time I came to the ranch.
Q: Well, Mr. Flynn, you told us — I will withdraw it and ask you this:
Is it true, what you told us previously, that when you first came to the Barker Ranch with Sadie, you don’t know where Sadie was, you walked in that cabin and you saw that gun; right?
A: Yes.
Q: The events that you are telling us about the gun, that happened when you first came to the Barker Ranch; right?
A: When I first noticed the gun.
Q: And you first noticed the gun when you first came there, right, with Sadie? Yes or no?
A: Well, I noticed the gun when I first got there to the ranch.
Q: And that was almost immediately after you left the Spahn Ranch, right, just the time it took you to get there?
A: Almost immediately after I left the Spahn’s Ranch.
Q: Right.
So, therefore, it is a lie and it is untrue, Mr. Flynn, that you were scared when you first walked into that cabin and saw that gun, and you did not think in terms of using that gun for protection against Mr. Manson, did you?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Argumentative.
THE WITNESS: I did use it in terms of protection because I caught him creeping up on the cabin one night, you see, him and Clem Tufts.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, may that be stricken as not responsive?
I am pinpointing the time, your Honor, to the time when he first came there. I am not asking for any other time, and I ask that that last be stricken as not responsive.
And I would ask your Honor to ask Mr. Flynn to answer the questions.
MR. BUGLIOSI: It is totally responsive, your Honor.
MR. KANAREK: It is not responsive, your Honor.
THE COURT: Go back and read the question and the answer.
(The record was read by the reporter.)
MR. KANAREK: That is some other time, your Honor. This question was pinpointed to the time.
THE COURT: It was a compound question, Mr. Kanarek, and he answered part of it. That part was responsive.
The fault was in the question, not the answer.
The motion to strike will be denied.
Let’s proceed.
MR. KANAREK: Very well.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Mr. Flynn, I am now referring to the time when you walked into the cabin, when you saw the gun there.
A: When I first saw it?
Q: Yes. When you walked in the cabin and you were telling us that you had just been in the immediate — you were with Sadie Glutz. At that time, when you walked into that cabin and saw that gun, you were not afraid, is that right, you were not afraid of Mr. Manson at that time?
A: I saw the gun. When I was scared, I was scared, you know. That is when it happened, when I got scared, you know. That is when it happened that I got scared, you know, and that is when I felt that I needed the gun, you see.
When I first got to Barker Ranch, you see, I noticed the gun in the tent — the cabin — you see.
Now, I can’t give you no length of time, you know, as to when I picked up the gun, whether it was that same day, you know, or whether it was a couple of days later, you know, or when it was, you know, but I was scared you know, and I felt that I could use it for my protection, you see.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, may that be stricken as not responsive to the question.
THE COURT: Motion is denied.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Mr. Flynn, would you answer this question.
When you saw that gun, you walked into that cabin, were you scared or weren’t you?
Just answer out yes or no before you make any speech.
A: Well, I walked in the cabin and I just saw the gun.
Q: Were you scared at the time, at this instant before you saw the gun, or at the instant you saw the gun, were you scared of Mr. Manson at that time?
A: Well, I can’t say yes and I can’t say no to that, you know. But if you let me tell you?
Q: My question is, were you scared or weren’t you at that instant in time.
A: I cannot answer that question.
Q: So at that time you don’t know whether you were scared or not. Is that a fair statement — is that a true statement, Mr. Flynn?
A: At that time —
Q: You don’t know whether you were scared or not?
A: Well —
Q: Is that correct?
A: That’s correct.
Q: All right, now, Mr. Flynn, how close to your throat was this knife that you are speaking of, Mr. Flynn?
A: Well, it was pretty close until a rooster, you know, when they go like that, you know, it’s pretty close.
Q: When Mr. Manson had this knife on you, you actually felt the point, right?
A: The edge.
Q: You felt the edge of the knife?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: And Mr. Manson weighed about what he weighs today that day, right?
A: Well, it looks like he’s put on a little weight.
Q: He was lighter then, right?
A: You could say that, yes.
Q: All right. How long did Mr. Manson have this knife at your throat?
A: I could say a minute — more than a minute.
Q: 60 seconds, right?
A: Yes.
Q: I am going to time it and I will tell you the beginning. I will tell you what time it begins, you tell me, if you don’t know time, you tell me when the time is up for the total time he had it at the throat.
Okay, are you with me? Do you understand, Mr. Flynn?
A: Yes.
Q: All right —
THE COURT: Are you going to take the stand and testify, Mr. Kanarek?
MR. KANAREK: Yes, I will testify — I think the Court can even take judicial notice, or maybe counsel will stipulate that my second hand is equal to his.
I will be glad to take the stand and testify.
(Off the record discussion between Mr. Kanarek, Mr. Bugliosi and Mr. Musich.)
MR. KANAREK: Mr. Musich, I think, will cooperate. We can possibly enter into a stipulation, your Honor.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Time begins, Mr. Flynn.
A: Now.
Q: That is ten seconds.
A: Ten seconds?
Q: Ten seconds.
A: Okay.
Q: It was at your throat for ten seconds.
A: Okay.
Q: Now, during that ten second period, Mr. Flynn, what did you do?
A: Well, I can say the time that he was at my throat, you see, I didn’t have too much to say, you see. Rather I listened.
Q: I see.
A: You see, to Mr. Manson, you know.
Q: Yeah. All right, and everything that he said, he said while he had the knife at your throat, right?
A: Yes — well —
Q: He said everything he said in ten seconds, right?
A: Well, wait a minute
Q: Wait a minute?
A: Wait a minute.
Q: You thought about what ten seconds is, correct?
A: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Not everything that he said was when he had the knife at my throat.
Q: I see.
A: You see?
Q: I see.
A: Not everything that he said was when he had the knife at my throat.
Q: I see. Would you tell us what he said while he had the knife at your throat?
A: He said, “You son-of-a-bitch,” —
MR. KANAREK: Wait a minute now, without talking —
MR. BUGLIOSI: Wait a while, your Honor he is answering the question, He is interrupting the answer.
MR. KANAREK: I wanted to make sure that the witness — I am now talking for the duration of time that the knife was actually at his throat. If your Honor will make that clear to him, because I don’t want Mr. Bugliosi to say something else at some other time, your Honor.
THE COURT: You will have to make it clear, Mr. Kanarek.
MR. KANAREK: All right.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Mr. Flynn, I am now talking, I want you to tell us the words that were uttered while Mr. Manson had the knife at your throat and you felt the knife there.
A: What he said?
Q: While he was holding the knife at your throat.
A: Okay, you want me to say that?
Q: Exactly the words that he stated while —
A: Okay.
Q: — while the knife was at your throat.
A: He says, “You son-of-a-bitch, don’t you know I am the one that’s doing all the killings?”
Q: That is what he said?
A: And then he says, “Are you going to come with me or do I have to kill you?” you see.
And then he put the knife down, you know, when I shrugged, you know, I went like this — that is a shrug, right? Right? That is a shrug, right? Like this, you know.
And I says, “I am eating,” you know, and I was croaking, you know, I was the rooster, you know.
And then he says, “Okay, here, you kill me,” you know, he put the knife down, you see.
And you know, I says — “What am I going to get out of it, you know, I’m not going to kill you,” you know.
He says, “If you are going to do me like that, if you feel that way, like that, you know, then I want you to go down to the creek and make love to my girls,” you see.
And then I told him that if I wanted to contract a nine-month case of syphilis or gonorrhea, you see, he would be the first one that I would come to see, you see.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Now, Mr. Flynn, what do you mean by croaking?
A: Croaking, I would like to demonstrate to you, you see, that is what I mean by it.
Q: Demonstrate. Demonstrate.
A: Well, would you get up here?
Q: What do you mean by croaking?
A: Well, you have a rooster in your throat like that, you know, your voice just changes. You cannot just talk right, you know.
It is just that pressure point, you see, right here.
Q: In other words, the knife was pressed in so much that you could not talk, is that right?
A: Well, I could not say much, but I croaked, you know.
Q: You mean you croaked like a rooster.
Did you make a noise like a rooster?
A: Well, I shrugged off, you know, when he was making all these statements, you know, and, you know, I did not want to believe all this, you know — you know.
Q: It sort of hurt you to believe all this, but you believed it; is that right?
A: Well, the only source that it came from, you know.
Q: Was Mr. Manson?
A: And the source that I heard it.
Q: Was your ears.
So, when he told it to you, you believed it there at the Spahn Ranch; is that right?
A: I didn’t want to believe that.
Q: But you did?
A: The source came from him. He told me, you know and I heard it.
Q: So you believed it; right? Correct?
A: (Pause.)
Q: Would you answer that for us, Mr. Flynn?
A: I believed it?
Q: Yes.
A: Did you say that? You asked me that?
Q: Yes.
A: Well, I became aware of it, you know.
Q: My question is: Did you believe it, Mr. Flynn?
A: I can only say that I became aware of it, you know.
Q: You say Mr. Manson told it to you?
A: Yes.
Q: Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you believe it when you heard it there at the Spahn Ranch?
A: I didn’t want to believe it.
Q: You didn’t want to believe it, but my question is, and would you answer yes or no, did you believe it?
A: Yes, I believed it.
Q: Now, Mr. Flynn —
May I approach the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
(Mr. Kanarek shows three photographs to Mr. Bugliosi.)
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, I have here an exhibit. I wonder if it might be marked?
THE CLERK: XX, your Honor.
MR. KANAREK: What is the next number?
THE COURT: XX.
MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor, XX. Thank you.
Q: Now, Mr. Flynn, I show you a picture of you — or is that a picture of you, among several other people?
A: This one is I.
Q: Right.
A: Yes.
Q: All right.
Now, would you tell us where the picture was taken, if you know?
Would you hold it in your hand, Mr. Flynn?
A: This picture was taken right in front of the saloon.
Q: When? On what occasion?
A: On the raid.
Q: On August the 16th?
A: Yes.
Q: You were arrested; right?
A: Yes.
Q: And 24 other people were arrested; right?
A: I didn’t count them, but there was a lot of people.
Q: A lot of people were arrested; right?
A: Yes.
Q: And all 25 — all the people that were arrested all 25 people that were arrested, were released without any charges being made; is that correct?
MR. BUGLIOSI: That calls for a conclusion.
MR. KANAREK: Well, if he knows, your Honor.
MR. BUGLIOSI: It calls for a conclusion or hearsay.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. KANAREK: May I make an offer of proof at the bench then, your Honor?
THE WITNESS: Not all the people.
THE COURT: Let’s proceed, Mr. Kanarek.
MR. KANAREK: Pardon?
Well, your Honor, he —
THE COURT: The objection is sustained.
MR. KANAREK: He made a response, your Honor. “Not all the people.”
I would ask that that be stricken.
I am willing to go into it.
THE COURT: Ask your next question, Mr. Kanarek.
MR. KANAREK: May his response be stricken, your Honor? Your Honor sustained the objection.
THE COURT: Mr. Kanarek, ask your next question.
MR. KANAREK: Very well, your Honor.
May the next picture be YY?
THE COURT: YY.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I show you a picture that I have marked YY, Mr. Flynn, and ask you if you recognize that?
Do you ecognize that scene?
A: That was the morning of the raid.
Q: Do you recognize that scene? Did you see that?
A: Yes.
Q: All right.
That was taken at the Spahn Ranch?
A: Yes.
Q: Now I show you ZZ, and ask you if that is a picture of you?
A: Yes.
Q: Was that taken at the Spahn Ranch on August the 16th?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, on August the 16th, 1969, did you consider yourself a member of what has been termed the Family?
A: No. I was just working at Spahn’s Ranch.
Q: You were working at Spahn Ranch?
A: Yes.
Q: You were arrested along with everyone else; right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, directing your attention, Mr. Flynn, to the fact that you were arrested with these other people. Have you come to resent that?
A: Resent what?
Q: Being arrested with these other people on August the 16th.
MR. BUGLIOSI: It is an ambiguous question, your Honor.
Resent being arrested? Or the fact that he was arrested with these people?
THE COURT: Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
If I don’t like being arrested?
THE COURT: Overruled.
You may answer.
MR. KANAREK: Would you answer the question, Mr. Flynn?
THE WITNESS: Well, I felt really strong about it.
MR. KANAREK: Right.
Q: You felt strong about being arrested; right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you didn’t like it; right?
A: No.
Q: And because of the fact that you were arrested, you have, forever, to this day, held that against Mr. Manson; is that right, Mr. Flynn?
A: Well, although I didn’t agree with everything that he did, I felt that he was right in everything that he did and said, you see. I felt that he was right in everything that he did and said. He knows his balance, you know.
Now, I didn’t agree with him.
Q: He was right in everything he said and did; right? Right?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, my question is: Have you felt a resentment about the fact that because —
A: Because of the impression that he served, I was affected by it.
Q: Is that right?
A: Is that what you are saying?
Q: That is what I am asking.
A: Okay.
I felt that I was arrested and that I didn’t provoke a motive, you know, to be arrested, you see, you know.
I wouldn’t hold it against him, you know.
Q: Pardon?
A: I wouldn’t hold it against him.
Q: As a matter of fact, from that time until the present time, Mr. Flynn, you have felt unhappy, very unhappy, with Mr. Manson because you were arrested on that day; is that right, Mr. Flynn?
A: From that moment? To now? What did you say?
Q: You don’t understand the question?
A: Would you repeat the question?
Q: Certainly. I would be glad to.
From the time that you were arrested until today, in your mind, Mr. Flynn, you blame Mr. Manson for that, is that right?
MR. BUGLIOSI: That he blames Mr. Manson for the arrest?
It is ambiguous, your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Overruled.
You may answer.
THE WITNESS: I didn’t hold it against him.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: My question, Mr. Flynn, is: Do you blame Mr. Manson for that arrest?
A: Well, I can say yes, your Honor, and I can say no.
THE COURT: Answer the question the best way you can.
THE WITNESS: I felt that he and the Family provoked the incidents, you know.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Have you finished your answer?
A: I said that I felt that him and the Family provoked the incident, you know, but there was no charges, you know.
I could say I don’t blame nobody, I couldn’t say, you know, and I still can’t, you see, for going to jail for four days, you know.
Q: My question, Mr. Flynn, is, from that date to this day in your mind you blame Mr. Mansion for being arrested and held in jail for four days?
A: I feel that he provoked it but I don’t blame him, you know.
Q: You don’t blame him?
A: Because he does what he does, you know, and I feel that he has every right to do what he does, although I don’t agree with him.
Q: Now, in other words, you have sort of a feeling towards your fellow man as such that includes Mr. Manson, that you just don’t hold a grudge, right?
A: I don’t hold a grudge, but I take precaution.
Q: You take precaution?
A: Yes.
Q: You speak softly and carry a big shotgun, is that what you are saying?
A: Well, if you catch somebody creeping up on you at night, you know —
Q: Then you have a shotgun?
A: Well, you know, I would say so.
Q: My question is, do you have any kind of a feeling against Mr. Manson because of the four days?
You say precaution and all of that, Mr. Flynn.
Do you feel a resentment? Do you feel — do you blame Mr. Manson, like today, right now?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Asked and answered, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Now, you were kept in jail for four days and released, right?
A: Yes.
Q: Mr. Manson was kept in jail and released, right?
A: Yes.
Q: To your knowledge, do you know of anyone who was not released after that raid that was arrested at the Spahn Ranch?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Irrelevant, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Now, during those four days, Mr. Flynn, during those four days while you were in jail you thought that Mr. Manson had provoked it.
You did not know you were going to be released, did you?
A: I did not know that I was — if I was going to be released or not.
Q: Right, you don’t know whether you were going to be released or not?
A: Yes.
Q: During those four days, for all you knew, while you were in jail, you were going to have criminal charges, felony criminal charges, pressed against you, right? For all you knew during those four days, right?
A: I knew that I was in jail, you know, and I had done nothing.
Q: And you knew that you were in jail because of Mr. Manson and what you call the Family, right?
A: Well, I found out, you know, after the charges were read, you know.
Q: Have you finished, Mr. Flynn?
A: When I found out when they read the charges, you know, of, you know —
I felt that it was provoked, you know, mainly because of the dune buggies, you know.
Q: Mr. Manson and the Family, right?
A: Yes.
Q: Mr. Manson especially, right?
A: The Family, the Family, yes, Mr. Manson.
Q: While you were sitting in jail, right?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, while you were sitting in jail for four days, may I ask you where were you in custody?
A: Well, in the — well, they took us to Malibu, then they brought us down here to the County Jail.
Q: The main county jail on Bauchet Street, what is called the Central County in Los Angeles.
A: I don’t know what it’s called, it’s just the jail.
Q: It’s by the railroad tracks, right? It’s not far from this courthouse?
A: Yes.
Q: Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: It wasn’t in this courthouse, but it was in a building not far from this courthouse, is that correct?
A: It is down this way.
Q: You are pointing —
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, may the record reflect he is pointing, I gather, generally in a northeasterly direction, which the Court can take judicial notice of.
THE WITNESS: By Olvera Street, and that way.
MR. KANAREK: And counsel agree he is pointing in a northeasterly direction?
MR. BUGLIOSI: I am not oriented, Mr. Kanarek.
MR. KANAREK: I think I can represent to the Court that that is.
THE COURT: Well —
MR. KANAREK: Does the Court take judicial notice that he is pointing towards the County Jail, your Honor?
THE COURT: It is not a matter of which I take judicial notice.
Let’s get on with the cross-examination.
MR. KANAREK: Very well, your Honor.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: You were there for four days — I will withdraw that and ask you:
Is it true while you were there you spoke to law enforcement people, officers?
A: When I was going in?
Q: Yes, you spoke to law enforcement people, policemen, right?
A: When I was going in the jail, yes.
Q: While you were in custody is it a fair statement you spoke to law enforcement officers?
Do you know what I mean by law enforcement officers?
A: Yes.
Q: Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And at this time you thought that Mr. Manson provoked it, that is what was going on in your mind at that time, is that right?
A: Well, if I was being charged for dune buggy thief, you know, and I did not steal no dune buggies, the only dune buggies that were there were the ones that belonged to the Family.
Q: And you felt that Mr. Manson had provoked a situation wherein you went to jail, is that correct?
Answer yes or no.
A: I felt —
Q: You felt he was to blame for your going to jail, is that correct?
A: Well, I can’t answer that question that way.
Q: Well, is it correct? You can say it is not correct if it isn’t, Mr. Flynn.
Just tell us your answer. It is a possible yes or no answer.
Did you think that Mr. Manson, because of what he had done, was the reason that you were going to jail?
A: Yes, I felt this way after the charges were read, you know.
Q: Right.
Now, you also thought at that time, according to your previous testimony, that when Mr. Manson told you, you say, when he had the knife at your throat, and he made those statements, you thought that it was true that he did kill seven people.
You have told us that just a few minutes ago, right, Mr. Flynn, that was also in your mind at that time, is that right?
A: But I did not want to believe it, you know.
Q: Mr. Flynn, I am referring to your testimony just a few minutes ago.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Do you remember what you testified a few minutes ago?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember telling us that you believe, you thought it was true, what Mr. Manson, you say, told you when he had the knife at your throat, right?
A: Yes.
Q: And while you were in custody for four days you thought that this man who is now in this trial charged with seven murders, that this man had provoked an arrest where you were in custody, and that he was guilty of seven murders because he told you so and you never mentioned it once to any law enforcement officer, is that correct?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Compound question, also a lecture, your Honor, an unsolicited argument.
THE COURT: Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You may answer it.
A: Well, I did not want to believe that, you know.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I understand your love for your fellow man, and all that, Mr. Flynn, but would you answer the question, please.
A: I believed it when he told me, you know.
Q: At the Spahn Ranch?
A: And I also felt that I did not want to believe it, you see.
Q: My question is, Mr. Flynn —
A: And when — yes?
Q: Mr. Flynn, may I ask you?
A: Yes.
Q: At the time when you were in custody for four long days did you think of what Mr. Manson had told you, you say, when he had the knife at your throat?
A: Did I think about it?
Q: Did you think —
A: At that time?
Q: Yes.
A: I cannot say that I did.
Q: You cannot even think —
May the record reflect there was about four seconds of thinking on the witness stand, your Honor.
So you don’t even know that you thought about it for four days while you were sitting there in the jail; you are not even sure that you remembered at that time what Mr. Manson told you a few days earlier concerning seven murders that were publicized throughout this County and the entire world?
MR. BUGLIOSI: That is not his testimony. He did not say he did not remember.
MR. KANAREK: I ask that his testimony be read back. I suggest that is a —
MR. BUGLIOSI: It’s a characterization of his testimony.
MR. KANAREK: I suggest it is a correct characterization of his testimony.
THE COURT: Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You may answer.
THE WITNESS: Well, I cannot say that I did give it thought, and I cannot say that I did not, you see.
But if I did, it was overcome by the anger, you know, of being thrown in jail, you know, by the charges that were made against me, you see, of the provocation, you see, you see, about the dune buggies, you know.
I was mad, you know. You can tell on those pictures, too.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: You were mad at Mr. Manson, right?
A: Well —
Q: For getting you into this spot where you spent four days in jail, is that right, Mr. Flynn?
A: Well, I was mad just by being in jail.
Q: You were mad at Mr. Manson because of what he did to provoke, right?
A: You could say that.
Q: That is true?
A: You can say that. I could say it too.
Q: It is true?
A: I can say it too, yes, I was mad.
Q: It is true, right?
A: I was mad.
Q: At Mr. Manson?
A: Not only at Mr. Manson, anything that served, you see, to provoke, you see, and have my being put in jail for something that I did not do, you know.
I would care less about a dune buggy, too, you know.
Q: Will you answer my question, Mr. Flynn?
A: I am trying to answer it just as clearly as I can, sir.
Q: Were you mad at Mr. Manson during those four days, were you?
A: Well, I wasn’t mad at him, but I did not hold it against him, you know, and I did not want to be mad at him, you know, but I was mad, yes.
Q: All right, now, and during —
May I ask you, Mr. Flynn, when you were released when you were released, what day were you released?
A: Well, four days from the 16th, that makes it 20, August 20.
Q: August 20?
A: I believe.
Q: You were released?
A: I believe, yes.
Q: And you were released — you were released after spending this time and after talking to law enforcement officers, is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: All right, now, in being released at the very place where you were released in jail, the very place, did you get your property back when you were released?
A: Well, they threw my shorts away, you know, and they gave me a pair of pants, you know, and a small shirt.
Q: Did you get any property back when you were released?
A: I don’t remember if I got anything like to put in my pockets or anything, but my clothes, you know, they disposed of.
Q: All right. Where were you released?
A: At the County Jail.
Q: And were you released in the company of anyone else?
(No response.)
Who else was released with you if anyone else was?
A: I don’t remember, but there was some there, there was someone there.
Q: There were other people from the Spahn Ranch released with you, is that a fair statement, Mr. Flynn?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Pardon?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you were released you went back to the Spahn Ranch?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, is it a fair statement, Mr. Flynn, may I ask you —
Is it correct, Mr. Flynn, that you don’t have too much to do with girls?
A: I would say that is fair.
Q: That is a correct statement, isn’t it? Right?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Would you answer yes? Yes is the right answer, right?
A: Well, do with girls like what?
Q: Well, you answer the question, Mr. Flynn, if the question is not clear I will be glad to reframe it.
If the question is not clear the Judge will ask me to reframe it if you ask the Court.
THE WITNESS: Would you have him reframe it?
THE COURT: You have the request, Mr. Kanarek.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Is it a fair statement that in the field of emotional relations that you don’t have too much to do with girls?
A: Oh, yes, I do.
Q: Pardon?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: You do?
A: Yes.
Q: I see, and directing your attention, Mr. Flynn, to the time, to the time prior, before this day that you say that Mr. Manson said what he said, and the knife and all of that, before that date, Mr. Flynn, had you been friendly — may I put it that way — with the girls at the Spahn Ranch?
A: Yes, I tried to be nice to all of the girls.
Q: Pardon?
A: Yes.
Q: And is it a fair statement that on occasion you went into the bushes with some of the girls at the Spahn Ranch?
A: Not too many occasions.
Q: But on occasions you did, right?
A: Yes.
Q: You were not scared of any syphilis or gonorrhea then, were you, Mr. Flynn?
A: Well, I have a doctor that keeps records, you know, you know.
It is more expensive, you know, that way, you know.
Q: Would you explain? What do you mean by that?
A: Well, I had one that lasted me for about three or four months and I just could not stop eating pills and taking shots because of this occasion in which I felt I was right, and which I was, you know, I asked for it, you know, you know.
Q: Now, you are telling us then that you do have emotional sexual relations with girls then, is that correct, Mr. Flynn?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you have sexual relations — have you had, in the year 1969, did you have sexual relations with girls other than at the Spahn Ranch, in places — I mean, girls who didn’t live at the Spahn Ranch?
A: I had relations, you know, what you relate to, I like girls, you know, and I have some good friend girls and, you know, that is a good relation.
Q: My question is: Did you have any sexual relation with girls other than at the Spahn Ranch?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Irrelevant, your Honor.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, it is —
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, may we approach the bench?
THE COURT: For what purpose?
MR. KANAREK: Because this man has made certain statements, your Honor, concerning, I think, syphilis and gonorrhea and venereal disease.
THE COURT: The objection is sustained.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Now, what day, Mr. Flynn, what day was it — I will withdraw that.
Was the automobile that Mr. Swartz had, was that a Plymouth automobile?
A: It was a Ford.
Q: Have you ever stated that it was a Plymouth?
A: That the Ford was a Plymouth?
Q: Yes.
A: I said the Ford is a Ford and a Plymouth is a Plymouth.
Q: Now, directing your attention to the automobile that Mr. Swartz had at the ranch.
A: Yes.
Q: Have you ever told anyone that that was a Plymouth?
A: I said that the Ford was a Ford, and the Plymouth was a Plymouth.
Q: Now, I am asking you: You have in mind an automobile that you associated with Mr. Swartz, do you not?
A: A Ford.
Q: Have you ever told anyone that that automobile was a Plymouth instead of a Ford?
A: I said that the Ford is a Ford, and a Plymouth —
THE COURT: Answer the question.
THE WITNESS: Have I said that that Ford was a Plymouth?
MR. KANAREK: Yes.
You understand it when the Judge asks you?
THE WITNESS: I said that?
MR. KANAREK: Yes.
THE WITNESS: No.
I said the Ford was a Ford.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Now, on how many different occasions have you seen an automobile leave the Spahn Ranch while you were at the Spahn Ranch at night? How many different times?
A: Any automobile?
Q: Any automobile.
A: Okay.
Lots of times.
Q: Pardon?
A: Lots of times.
Q: Lots of times; right?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you keep a log of the automobiles that left the Spahn Ranch at night?
A: No. But I noticed the automobiles that left at night mostly because there wasn’t no cars there except maybe one or two, you know. And Pearl would leave every night, you know.
Q: Is that your answer, Mr. Flynn?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, in August of 1969, was there any reason for you to remember any particular automobile leaving the Spahn Ranch at night?
A: Was there any particular reason why I should remember it?
Q: Is the question clear to you?
A: Is that what you said?
Q: If you don’t understand the question, I am sure the Court will have the court reporter read it to you, Mr. Flynn.
You seem to — well, anyway, is the question clear to you?
THE WITNESS: Would you read that question again?
THE COURT: Read the question.
MR. KANAREK: May the reporter read it, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
(The question was read by the reporter.)
THE WITNESS: Well, I don’t know how to answer your question.
I can answer in a thousand ways.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, may the record reflect some 15 seconds before he did answer?
THE COURT: Apparently the question is ambiguous to the witness.
I suggest you reframe it, Mr. Kanarek.
MR. KANAREK: Certainly, your Honor.
Q: You don’t understand the question, Mr. Flynn? You don’t understand the question?
A: Well, I can answer it more than one way, you know.
Do you have the time? That is what I am saying, you know.
Q: Mr. Flynn, do you know what it means to be programmed?
You have used the expression “programmed,” right?
A: (Pause.)
Q: Do you have to hesitate on that, Mr. Flynn?
MR. BUGLIOSI: He is badgering the witness, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: Well, I heard the word “programmed” before.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: You yourself have used the word “programmed” is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: P-r-o-g-r-a-m-m-e-d; is that correct, Mr. Flynn?
A: Yes.
Q: Would you tell me, what do you mean, by the word “programmed”?
A: What do I mean by the word “programmed”?
Q: Yes.
A: If I feel that your way of thinking doesn’t meet mine, you see, then I advise you, you see, to submit to my way of thinking, you see, and I offer you a better way of thinking, you see. And then I submit my thinking to you where you will take and do as I say, you see.
Q: Have you finished? Have you finished your explanation? Have you answered the question completely, Mr. Flynn?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, have you stated, Mr. Flynn, that you have been programmed by the prosecution in this case?
A: Have I stated that?
Q: Yes.
A: No, I haven’t stated that.
Q: Pardon?
A: I haven’t stated that.
Q: You have never stated that?
A: No.
Q: Pardon?
A: I haven’t stated that.
Q: Now, you have spoken with Mr. Bugliosi?
A: Yes.
Q: Concerning this case; right?
A: Yes.
Q: And from the time — I am now referring to the time you say — well, let me withdraw that.
Until you spoke with Mr. Bugliosi, did you have any occasion to remember automobiles leaving the Spahn Ranch in August of 1969?
A: Yes.
Q: Pardon?
A: Yes.
Q: Your answer is yes?
A: Yes.
Q: On what occasion — let me withdraw that and ask you this:
On what occasion, if any, did you tell anybody about automobiles leave the Spahn Ranch in August of 1969 other than when you spoke with Mr. Bugliosi in 1970?
Do you understand that question? I am asking for dates. I am asking now for a date or a time when such telling occurred if, in fact, it did occur.
Now, if all that is not cleat, Mr. Flynn, or you say it is not clear, I am sure that Judge Older would agree to have that read over for you.
A: Well, about automobiles leaving the Spahn Ranch area, I discussed with myself, you see. With myself, you know.
Q: Do you talk out loud?
THE COURT: Mr. Kanarek, it is 12:00 o’clock now.
We will take the noon recess.
Ladies and gentlemen, do not converse with anyone or form or express any opinion regarding the case until it is finally submitted to you.
The court will recess until 2:00 p.m.
(Whereupon at 12:00 o’clock noon the court was in recess.)
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, 1970 2:05 P.M.
-o0o-
THE COURT: All parties, counsel end jurors are present. You may continue, Mr. Kanarek.
MR. KANAREK: Yes, thank you, your Honor.
JUAN FLYNN,
the witness on the stand at the time of the noon recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KANAREK:
Q: Mr. Flynn, would you please tell us your address?
MR. BUGLIOSI: It’s immaterial, your Honor, it’s irrelevant.
MR. KANAREK: It’s most relevant, your Honor —
MR. BUGLIOSI: May we approach the bench on it?
MR. KANAREK: Smith vs. Illinois —
MR. BUGLIOSI: That dealt with a different issue.
MR. KANAREK: We have a particular issue.
THE COURT: Gentlemen, let’s stop the colloquy.
The objection is overruled. You may answer.
THE WITNESS: This is the address that I can be reached, (Indistinguishable) Street, Canoga Park.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Canoga Park.
A: Canoga Park.
Q: Is that an apartment, Mr. Flynn?
A: No.
Q: I notice you are reading it from a piece of paper; you don’t have it memorized, is that correct?
A: Yes, I have it memorized. This is the address that you could reach me at.
Q: Where do you live, Mr. Flynn?
A: In Canoga Park.
Q: Would you tell as the address, please?
MR. BUGLIOSI: I request an offer of proof as to why he wants to know.
MR. KANAREK: So that we can contact people, your Honor, so that we can contact people.
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Kanarek, you have your answer.
THE WITNESS: I stated that you could reach me through this address.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Yes, but I would want to know, please, if you would tell at where you live, Mr. Flynn.
A: I don’t want to tell you.
MR. KANAREK: Well, will the Court order him to answer that, please; may we have an answer?
THE COURT: Answer the question.
THE WITNESS: Okay, it’s just a block from there.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Would you state the address, please.
A: Just a block from, there, it’s Independence and Partenia, you know.
Q: Would you state the address, please.
A: I wouldn’t know the number of the house you know.
Q: Does anyone else live in that house with you?
A: Yes.
Q: Who?
A: Mr. Swartz.
Q: What is his first name?
A: Johnny.
Q: Johnny Swartz, you mean the man from Spahn Ranch?
A: Yes.
Q: And directing your attention, then, Mr. Flynn, having in mind the automobile that you testified to wherein you testified certain people drove off in an automobile.
A: Yes.
Q: Have you ever stated that that automobile was a Plymouth?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Asked and answered, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BYMR. KANAREK: Do you remember, Mr. Flynn, having a conversation with P. L. Sartucci on August the 18, 1970?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember having that conversation?
A: Well I remember, if you want to know something about it.
Q: You mean, if I don’t — you mean —
A: If you are just going to stand there, you know, and expect me to tell you a conversation without giving me a point to talk about.
THE COURT: There is no question pending.
Let’s get on with the next question.
You already asked that question and received an answer.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: (Indistinguishable), did you discuss the automobile that you say you saw people drive off in with Mr. Sartucci?
A: Yes.
Q: I ask you now —
Counsel, I am reading from Page 14, Lines 20 to 23.
(Mr. Kanarek shows a document to Mr. Bugliosi.)
MR. KANAREK: I show you Page 14, Mr. Flynn, and I ask you to read over to yourself Lines 20 to 23
I am asking you to read that to yourself, Mr. Flynn.
A: Yes.
Q: Lines 20 through 23.
A: “What kind of a car” —
Q: Read it to yourself. Just to yourself, Mr. Flynn. Lines 20 to 23.
(Pause while the witness reads.)
MR. KANAREK: Just to yourself.
Have you read it to yourself? Does it take you all this time to read those three lines?
THE WITNESS: Well, did you give me a certain time to read it?
MR. KANAREK: I am asking you to read 20 to 23. I want to know if you require all that time to read those three lines?
THE WITNESS: I have read it.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Have you read it?
A: Yes.
Q: In answer to a question “What kind of car did they leave in?
“A. A Plymouth.
“Q. A Plymouth?
“A. A Plymouth.”
Did you give those answers to Mr. Sartucci?
A: If they are stated in that piece of paper, I could have.
Q: Well, my question is —
A: If they are stated on the information that you base your conversation from, I believe that I did, then.
Q: In other words, what you are telling me, if it is written down on this piece of paper, then you are going to accept it as 100 per cent gospel truth that you said it; right?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Badgering the witness, your Honor.
MR. KANAREK: I am asking him. He initiated it.
THE COURT: Overruled.
You may answer.
THE WITNESS: I didn’t say that I was going to accept it, you see.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: My question is: To those questions, Mr. Flynn did you give those answers?
A: Well, as I stated, you know, that if what you base your question —
THE COURT: Answer the question, Mr. Flynn.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
I could have, yes.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Is your answer yes?
A: Yes.
Q: Or no? Or you don’t know?
A: Yes, I know. Okay.
Q: You remember, as you are sitting there on the witness stand, testifying under oath now?
A: Yes.
Q: You remember that you told Mr. Sartucci it was a Plymouth is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, I ask you to read —
May I approach the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, you may.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Now, would you read over Lines 24 at the bottom of Page 14, through Line 5 at the top of Page 15.
A: To Line 5?
Q: Yes, at the top of Page 15, Mr. Flynn.
Is that clear?
From the bottom, Line 25 — pardon me — Line 24 at the bottom of Page 14, through Line 5, at the top of Page 15.
A: 15?
Q: Yes.
Through Line 5 at the top of Page 15.
Just read those over to yourself.
(Pause while the witness reads.)
Q: Did you give those answers to those questions?
A: Yes.
Q: You remember that you did?
A: Yes.
MR. KANAREK: (Reading:)
“Q. Do you remember whose car that was?
“A. Yes.”
MR. KANAREK: I am now reading. You don’t have to answer. I am now reading what is on the paper.
“Q. Do you remember whose car that was?”
“A. A Plymouth or a yellow Ford. There was a yellow Ford there at the time.
“Q. Whose car was that?
“A. That was Johnny Swartz’s car. He let them use it. Then when Linda Kasabian came back she borrowed David Hannum’s — ”
Then there is a question mark after that in the script, something like that. “And she split, and he kept saying to me, ‘Where is my car? Where is my car?’”
Q: Now, is it a fact, Mr. Flynn, that there was more than one car at the ranch?
A: Well, that I saw more than one car in use, you see, by Mr. Manson.
Q: My question, Mr. Flynn —
A: I answered. I says, “Yes, there was more than one car that I saw in use by Mr. Manson.”
Q: My question is, was there more than one car at the ranch?
A: Yes, there was more than one car that was running that I saw in use by Mr. Manson.
Q: Mr. Flynn, my question —
You may have some question you may wish to answer, my question is merely:
Was there more than one car at the ranch?
A: Yes there was more than one car that I saw in use at the ranch, and I saw Mr. Manson use them.
Q: Now, you have in your testimony —
A: Yes.
Q: — looking into the depths of your mind, you have a desire in this to get Mr. Manson somehow in this testimony, is that right, Mr. Flynn?
A: I would not agree with you.
Q: You don’t agree with me?
A: No, I say no.
MR. KANAREK: I see.
Your Honor, may the record reflect, I think there was about at least a ten-second lag between the question and the response.
Q: Well, my question, Mr. Flynn, then, is what kind of car did they leave in?
A: A yellow Ford.
Q: A yellow Ford?
A: Yes, yes.
Q: And when you stated on August the 18th, 1970, just a few weeks ago —
A: Yes.
Q: — that it was a Plymouth, that was incorrect; is that right, Mr. Flynn?
A: The Plymouth was incorrect.
Q: I see, and since that date have you discussed the yellow Ford with Mr. Bugliosi?
A: When I came down on my free will, here, you know —
Q: There are lots of things that may or may not be true, Mr. Flynn, but would you just answer that question, please.
Do you have the question in mind, Mr. Flynn?
A: If I discussed this with Mr. Bugliosi?
Q: Yes, the matter of the Ford.
A: Well, I submitted my testimony to him.
Q: Did you discuss a yellow Ford with Mr. Bugliosi?
A: I submitted my testimony about the yellow Ford to Mr. Bugliosi.
Q: Since August of 1970 you have discussed the yellow Ford with Mr. Bugliosi, is that correct?
A: I submitted my — you know — to Mr. Bugliosi about the yellow Ford and, you know —
Q: Do you understand the word, discuss, Mr. Flynn?
A: This is talk, you know, —
Q: Discuss?
A: Talk, you know.
Q: Right.
Now, did you talk with Mr. Bugliosi concerning a yellow Ford since August, 1970, August 13th, 1970?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, do you recall discussing with Mr. Sartucci —
A: Yes.
Q: Mr. Flynn —
A: Uh-huh.
Q: — wherein you stated to Mr. Sartucci something concerning a knife, and Mr. Manson, in connection with the — with Mr. Manson making statements to you in connection with the Sharon Tate murders?
A: I don’t know if I talked with him about that.
Q: You don’t know.
Well, would you look back in your mind and tell me whether on August the 18th, 1970, at about 4:00 o’clock in the afternoon — pardon me — about 2:00 o’clock in the afternoon —
A: Uh-huh.
Q: — were you in the Police Building with Sergeant Sartucci?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you discuss with him the matter of —
Did you tell him something about Mr. Manson and a knife in connection with the statements you said Mr. Manson made about the Sharon Tate murders?
A: No, I don’t remember discussing that with him.
Q: You don’t remember that.
Well, may I ask you then to just read over, just read over to yourself at this time —
A: Uh-huh.
Q: — Mr. Flynn —
MR. KANAREK: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Would you begin — now, again I am asking you just to read to yourself, please, beginning at page 3, line 2, would you read that over to yourself through line 18?
A: Yes.
Q: Just to yourself.
A: From No. 2 down, right?
Q: From No. 2, Page 3, through Line 18; and please do not read from the sheet at this time.
(Pause while the witness reads.)
MR. KANAREK: Now, have you read over Lines 2 through 18?
A: Yes.
Q: Does that refresh your recollection as to whether or not you discussed the matters set forth in Lines 2 through 18 at Page 3 with Mr. Sartucci?
Now, do you know what I mean by recollect, Mr. Flynn? Do you know what recollect means?
A: Well, thinking back, huh?
Q: That is what you understand the word recollect mean?
A: Okay. You tell me.
Q: I am not telling you.
A: I am asking you what recollect is.
Q: Well, do you recall, as you sit on the witness stand right now — not because it is written on this paper, but because you, in fact, as you sit there right now, in your mind, are thinking, without looking at this paper — do you recall discussing the matters that are set forth in Lines 2 through 18 at Page 3?
A: No. I don’t recall them, but —
Q: You don’t recall discussing these matters with Mr. Sartucci?
A: I know that I talked to him.
Q: But you don’t recall these matters that are set forth in Lines 2 through 18; is that correct? As you sit on the witness right now, you don’t recall stating those things; is that right?
A: Yes, I recall some of it but not all of it.
Q: Pardon?
A: I recall some but not all.
Q: Now you do recall?
A: I recall some of it.
Q: Would you tell us then, — you may read it again if you so desire —
Would you tell us, were the questions set forth at Lines 2 through 18 asked of you, and did you give the answers that are set forth in Lines 2 through 18 at Page 3?
Did you give those answers?
A: They don’t sound like me.
Q: Well, will you tell us, Mr. Flynn? Would you look at it? Take your time, I am sure Judge Older will grant you all the time that you want. And would you then give me an answer to the question, please.
Just read it over to yourself again. Don’t read from the page at this time.
A: Page 18, right?
Q: Line 18, Mr. Flynn. Through Line 18.
(Pause while the witness continues to read.)
THE WITNESS: There is a small mistake here though.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: My question is Mr. Flynn: After reading that, do you recall giving the answers that are set forth there to the questions that are set forth there between lines 2 and 18?
A: Well, if I did, you know, I must have — yes, I did. Yes, I did.
Q: You recall now?
A: Yes.
Q: You have an independent recollection?
A: Yes.
Q: As you sit there in the witness stand?
A: Yes.
Q: You remember that you gave these questions —
A: Yes.
Q: — gave the answers set forth here to the questions?
A: Yes.
MR. KANAREK: All right.
(Reading.)
“Q. When did you first become aware of the fact that Charles Manson was being charged with the crimes that he is presently on trial for?
“A. I became aware of the crimes that he is being charged with when he admitted to me of the killings that were taking place as we have discussed from the television news media.
“Q. Okay. Just to clarify that point. I assume you were at some location when you saw the television programs that mentioned some murders?
“A. Yes.
“Q. What murders in particular?
“A. The Sharon Tate murders.
“Q. Was there any conversation about the LaBiancas, or was that all at the same time, or what?
“A. Well, I don’t know if it was at the same time, but he led me to believe, he told me that he was the main cause for these murders to be committed.”
Now, Mr. Flynn, did you, at any time, mention to Mr. Sartucci that this took place in a kitchen?
MR. BUGLIOSI: I object. If he wasn’t asked that question, your Honor, there would be no way for him to answer it. So, I object on the grounds that it is totally irrelevant.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, the question is —
MR. BUGLIOSI: It is irrelevant.
If he was asked that question and he didn’t answer it that way, then it would be relevant.
THE COURT: Do you wish to come to the bench, Mr. Kanarek.
MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.
(Whereupon Mr. Kanarek and Mr. Bugliosi approach the bench and the following proceedings occur at the bench outside of the hearing of the jury:)
MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I think this is improper impeachment.
If he made an inconsistent statement, that is impeachment. If he made an inconsistent statement.
But, your Honor, “Did you tell him about the kitchen area?” That is not impeachment.
I might bring up several things that he told Sartucci, but it wouldn’t be relevant and the Court wouldn’t let me bring it in.
He told Sartucci a lot of things that I can’t get into evidence.
I think he can only go into —
THE COURT: There is a difference, of course, between what you can do on direct and what you can do on cross.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I understand that, your honor, but I don’t think it is proper impeachment. “Did you tell him about the kitchen area?”
If he was asked and he said, “No, it was not in the kitchen, it was in the bunk house,” that is something different. But, “Did you tell him it was in the kitchen area,” I will object on the ground it is calling for hearsay. It is also irrelevant.
MR. KANAREK: May I respond to that?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. KANAREK: The fact of the matter is, if you read the colloquy, he indicates that the place that the discussion took place was during the TV performance. If you read the colloquy, your Honor.
THE COURT: I am not going to read the colloquy, Mr. Kanarek. It is not in evidence. It hasn’t been offered to me. I don’t know what you are talking about.
MR. KANAREK: I am saying that —
MR. BUGLIOSI: What if it was at two places? Maybe it was.
Do you want me to bring that out, too?
MR. KANAREK: I am saying that counsel can try to clear it up, if he wishes, but my position is that this colloquy clearly shows that these conversations took place at the time when there was a viewing of the television broadcast. There is no question about it, if you read the colloquy.
Furthermore, he says he became aware of the crimes when he admitted the killings.
That is impeaching this witness on another aspect, because clearly, in the kitchen there was no TV. There was nothing mentioned about TV.
And he said at that time he didn’t — there was no awareness as far as the crimes were concerned, there was no connection.
In other words, it wasn’t simultaneous with the awareness of the crimes having occurred that Mr. Manson said he did it.
This is impeaching in several different ways. It is impeaching what this witness has already stated.
MR. BUGLIOSI: There is no impeachment, your Honor.
THE COURT: That is a matter for argument.
MR. BUGLIOSI: All right.
THE COURT: I really don’t see the objection, Mr. Bugliosi.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Well —
THE COURT: You can bring it out on redirect examination, if you want. But I think there is some implication in the question, I consider it to be a straightforward question.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I don’t think it’s proper cross-examination, your Honor, to ask a witness, “In a previous conversation did you tell someone this, did you tell someone that?”
You can go all the way down the line. I have never seen that sort of examination.
THE COURT: Lots of times.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Did they ask you whether such and such did occur? What did you say?
THE COURT: This is clearly relevant.
MR. BUGLIOSI: It would be relevant if they asked him where it occurred and he never told them, or he gave them a different place.
But he is not even being asked.
THE COURT: I think questions like this carry within themselves the seeds of their own destruction.
If a lawyer asks a question like that and does not follow it up, the other attorney usually turns the weapon against him on his re-examination, so it is self-curing.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I will withdraw the objection.
THE COURT: I think he has the right to ask the question.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, on these addresses, if they really want to go out there and talk to people, swell. If they want to do that, if they want to make that offer of proof.
THE COURT: You tell me what Smith vs. Illinois means, if it doesn’t mean that.
MR. BUGLIOSI: If they want to do that?
THE COURT: I cannot investigate their motives. He has the right to know, as I read the case.
MR. BUGLIOSI: All right.
(The following proceeding were had in open court in the presence and hearing of the jury:)
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, may that last question be read?
THE COURT: Well, it’s quite a ways back, Mr. Kanarek, would you reframe the question.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Mr. Flynn, did you tell Mr. Sartucci that this alleged — I will withdraw it.
Did you tell Mr. Sartucci that this supposed knife incident, Mr. Manson saying these things about the murders, that it took place in the kitchen?
A: Well, I talked to Sartucci, you know, and I told him about an incident in the kitchen, yes.
Q: You did tell him about an incident in the kitchen?
A: Yes.
Q: I see. Now — and that was on August the 18th, 1970, right? You were down there in the Police Building?
A: Yes.
Q: All right. Now, would you read over — now, again, Mr. Flynn —
MR. KANAREK: I think Mr. Bugliosi and I can agree.
(Consultation between Mr. Bugliosi and Mr. Kanarek.)
MR. KANAREK: Mr. Bugliosi and I are in agreement, your Honor, I think —
(Further discussion between Mr. Kanarek and Mr. Bugliosi.)
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Mr. Flynn, then, would you read over these pages.
Mr. Flynn, would you read over these pages to yourself and tell me now, again, just read them to yourself, Mr. Flynn and would you tell us —
MR. BUGLIOSI: I submit, this is improper cross-examination, your Honor.
MR. KANAREK: Well, your Honor, then —
THE COURT: Well, he has not asked the question yet.
Finish the question, Mr. Kanarek.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Would you tell me whether there is any reference anywhere in those pages to the kitchen.
I am speaking now of the incident that you testified to about the knife.
A: Yes.
Q: And about Mr. Manson making statements about the Sharon Tate — about the murders.
A: Yes.
Q: Seven, murders.
A: Yes.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Same objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: What’s the objection?
MR. BUGLIOSI: It’s improper cross-examination.
MR. KANAREK: Well, your Honor, I can represent to the Court that this is a transcript that has been furnished me by the District Attorney as purporting to reflect —
THE COURT: What is your objection?
MR. BUGLIOSI: It is improper. He is trying to prove a negative, and there may have been several conversations with Mr. Sartucci.
This is implying everything is within those pages.
MR. KANAREK: The question will reveal that I asked him concerning this precise conversation in the Police Building in connection with this very day, your Honor.
THE COURT: I think you will have to lay more of a foundation, Mr. Kanarek, whether this is all of the conversation.
THE WITNESS: There is some more conversation.
THE COURT: Just a moment.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Mr. Flynn when you were present with Mr. Sartucci was there a lady or a man taking down —
A: Man.
Q: — like Mr. Hollombe?
A: A man.
Q: Taking down every word that was said, right?
A: Right.
Q: And that was on August the 18th, 1970, right?
A: Yeah.
MR. KANAREK: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. KANAREK: May I have those?
(Documents handed to Mr. Kanarek.)
Q BY MR. KANAREK: You see here on Page 16, do you remember about how long it was Mr. —
A: Read this?
Q: No, my question is about how long did you talk to Mr. Sartucci in the presence of a man who was taking down every word that was being said?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Well, this is assuming a fact not in evidence, it is assuming that court reporters get down every word, and I think everyone knows that they don’t.
They make errors very, very frequently. This has been shown in this court.
Number two, your Honor. I object on the grounds of the best evidence rule.
I have no objection to introducing this whole document into evidence as an exhibit and letting the jury read it.
The document is the best evidence of the conversation, not Mr. Flynn’s interpretation of it.
This is clearly in violation of the best evidence rule, your Honor.
MR. KANAREK: Well, your Honor, after that speech may we either approach the bench or may I answer him in open court?
THE COURT: The objection is sustained, Mr. Kanarek.
Please proceed.
MR. KANAREK: Mr. Flynn —
May I approach the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Now, Mr. Flynn, I show you a picture?
A: Yes.
Q: And I will ask you do you recall that scene?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you see that scene?
A: On the ranch.
Q: At the Spahn ranch?
A: Yes.
MR. KANAREK: I think we have gone through ZZ.
THE COURT: The next exhibit for the defendants will be AB.
MR. KANAREK: AB your Honor? Thank you.
May I just mark this AB, your Honor?
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I show you, Mr. Flynn, a scene and ask you if you recognize that, that scene.
A: That is the raid.
Q: That is the day of the raid?
A: Yes.
MR. KANAREK: Would the next be A —
MR. FITZGERALD: AC.
THE COURT: AC will be the next letter.
MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor, thank you.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I show you a scene that seems to have — do you recognize that?
A: That is the ranch.
Q: Is that it on the day of the raid?
A: It looks like it. They were wearing baseball caps out there.
MR. KANAREK: May this be marked AD, your Honor?
THE COURT: It will be so marked.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I show you this and ask you if you recognize that uniform that was being used on the day of the raid, and that type of equipment?
A: Yes.
MR. KANAREK: May this be marked AE, your Honor?
THE COURT: It will be so marked.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I show you a picture that appears to be some sheriff’s deputies.
A: That is at the ranch.
Q: Was that at the ranch on the day of the raid, Mr. Flynn?
A: Well, I don’t know if it was on the day of the raid, but I know they were wearing them caps.
Q: On the day of the raid?
A: Yes, the day of the raid.
MR. KANAREK: And may this be marked AF, your Honor?
THE COURT: So marked.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I show you a picture and ask you if that appears to be a scene from the day of the raid?
A: Something like that, yes.
MR. KANAREK: May it be marked AG, your Honor?
THE COURT: So marked.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I show you a picture which appears to be of you, Mr. Flynn.
A: That is the day of the raid.
Q: Is that a picture of you the day of the raid?
A: Yes, yes.
Q: A picture of you in front of what area?
A: The saloon, and here is the kitchen door.
Q: The door is the door to the kitchen?
A: The door is the door to the kitchen.
MR. KANAREK: Thank you. May this be marked AH, your Honor?
THE COURT: It will be so marked.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I show you a picture which shows one, two, three, four, five, at least six police cars.
Does that appear to be a scene from the day of the raid?
A: Yes, it looks like the day of the raid.
MR. KANAREK: May that be marked AI, your Honor?
THE COURT: It will be so marked.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I show you a picture which shows what appears to be a deputy sheriff walking in a rural area next to a road, does that appear to be on the day of the raid?
A: This appears like the ranch.
Q: Does that appear to be a picture showing a scene on the day of the raid?
A: Well, it could be.
MR. KANAREK: May it be marked AJ, your Honor?
THE COURT: It will be so marked.
MR. KANAREK: Thank you.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I show you a picture and ask you if that appears to be a scene on the day of the raid?
A: Yes. They are all wearing baseball caps.
MR. KANAREK: Thank you.
May it be marked AK, your Honor?
THE COURT: It will be so marked.
MR. KANAREK: Thank you.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I show you a picture and ask you whether that appears to be a scene that you recognize from the day of that raid?
A: That is not at the ranch, though.
Q: In other words, looking at the picture —
A: It looks like the police station.
Q: Well, were you at the police station on the day of the raid?
A: Yes.
Q: Does that appear to you to be the police station that you were taken to on the day of the raid?
A: It looks similar to it.
MR. KANAREK: May this be marked, your Honor, AL?
THE COURT: It may be so marked.
MR. KANAREK: Thank you.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I show you another picture and ask you, Mr. Flynn, does that appear to be — do you recognize that as the police station?
A: This just looks like a bunch of police people in there.
Q: Does that appear to be the police station that you were at on the day of the raid?
A: I can’t remember it that well, not the police station.
Q: Very well. Thank you, Mr. Flynn.
Now you will notice a helicopter in this picture.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you see a helicopter over the ranch on the day of the raid?
A: Yes.
Q: Does that appear to be an area that is a part of or near the Spahn Ranch?
A: Yes.
MR. KANAREK: May this be marked next, your Honor, AM?
THE COURT: It will be so marked.
MR. KANAREK: Thank you.
I show you a picture showing about, I think, five motorcycles and police officers.
Does that appear to be a scene that you saw on the day of the raid?
A: I didn’t see a bunch of motorcycles up there.
Q: You saw no motorcycles?
A: I didn’t see those motorcycles up there.
Q: On the day of the raid, you don’t remember these motorcycles?
A: I don’t remember them, no.
Q: I show you a picture with a helicopter and ask you if you recognize this area of the Spahn Ranch; the picture also showing the helicopter?
A: Yes, this is from the water trough.
Q: Does that appear to be a helicopter to you?
A: Yes. That is the water trough right there. (Indicating.)
Q: And how far is the water trough from the road, from Santa Susanna Pass Road?
A: About three and a half times the length of this row.
Q: You mean from here to where the clock is?
A: Three and a half times.
Q: Would you say about a hundred and eighty feet; something like that?
A: About three and a half times the length of this room.
MR. KANAREK: May this be marked, your Honor, AN?
THE COURT: It will be so marked.
MR. KANAREK: Thank you.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I show you another picture of a helicopter, and it shows you what appears to be a rocky area.
Do you recognize that rocky area?
A: Yes.
Q: What part of the Spahn Ranch is that?
A: That is behind the Spahn Ranch.
Q: How far is that from the road?
A: Maybe less than a quarter of a mile, or a quarter of a mile. something like that.
MR. KANAREK: May this be marked AO, your Honor?
THE COURT: AO.
MR. KANAREK: Thank you.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I show you a helicopter, a picture with a helicopter, and there appears to be some rural area in the picture.
Do you recognize that rural area?
A: That is by the bathroom.
Q: At the Spahn Ranch?
A: Yes.
MR. KANAREK: May this be marked AP, your Honor?
THE COURT: It will be so marked, AP.
MR. KANAREK: Thank you.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I show you a picture of a helicopter, and this appears to be a rural area.
Could you tell us if you recognize that rural area?
A: This is the bathroom and the shack. Here is the shack. The trailer was next to it where I was sleeping.
MR. KANAREK: Thank you.
May this be marked AQ, your Honor?
THE COURT: AQ.
MR. KANAREK: Thank you.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: I show you a picture and ask you if you recognize that area?
A: No.
Q: You don’t recognize that area?
A: No.
Q: Would you answer audibly, Mr. Flynn.
A: No.
Q: Now, I show you a picture of a helicopter with the word “Sheriff” on it.
Did you see a helicopter that day over the ranch?
A: Yes.
MR. KANAREK: May this be marked, your Honor, AR?
THE COURT: AR.
The question is: Did you see that helicopter?
MR. KANAREK: No. I asked did he see a helicopter, I think that is enough foundation, unless the District Attorney is objecting, your Honor.
THE COURT: AR.
MR. KANAREK: Thank you.
Q: Now, I show you a picture showing a rural area with a helicopter.
Would you tell us if you recognize that area?
A: It looks like from the main house.
Q: Directing your attention to the area where the helicopter is.
How far is that from the main road, or from Santa Susanna Pass Road?
A: I couldn’t tell you.
Q: Does that appear to be the Spahn Ranch?
A: Yes. Behind the Spahn Ranch.
MR. KANAREK: May this be marked next in line, your Honor, AS?
THE COURT: AS.
MR. KANAREK: Thank you.
Q: Here is a picture with a helicopter in what appears to be a rural area.
Will you tell us if you recognize that?
A: Yes.
Q: What does that appear to be?
A: That is a buggy shed.
Q: How far from the main road is the helicopter? How far, would you say?
A: Well, I couldn’t tell you.
Q: You have no way of telling? You don’t know, Mr. Flynn?
A: I don’t know how far from the helicopter to the —
Q: To the main road, Santa Susanna Road.
A: I don’t know.
Q: How far is this shed from the main road?
A: One and a half times the length of this room.
MR. KANAREK: Thank you.
May this be marked next, your Honor, AT?
THE COURT: Yes.
Will counsel approach the bench, please?
(Where upon all counsel approach the bench and the following proceedings occur at the bench outside of the hearing of the jury:)
THE COURT: Mr. Kanarek, you seem to be spending a lot of time on this.
MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: What is the relevance?
MR. KANAREK: The relevance, your Honor, is to show the raid.
Our position is that the raid was such —
THE COURT: You have the testimony of the witness that there was a raid and that helicopters were present.
MR. KANAREK: But pictures are much more graphic.
If counsel will stipulate, I can do it without the witness’ testimony.
THE COURT: Do what without the witness’ testimony?
MR. KANAREK: Show that this was a military operation on the part of the police, your Honor.
THE COURT: But you have marked about six or eight pictures of a helicopter, a single helicopter.
MR. KANAREK: Yes. Over different areas.
THE COURT: We all know that helicopters fly around. That is not surprising. What is the point of that?
MR. KANAREK: To show the invasion by State action, the invasion of the private rights of the people that were living there.
THE COURT: What does that have to do with the issues in this case?
MR. KANAREK: What is that, your Honor?
THE COURT: What is the relevance of that to the issues in this case?
MR. KANAREK: It is relevant, your Honor, because as I say, it shows the presence, the intensity of the hatred for Mr. Manson by law enforcement.
THE COURT: I don’t follow your thinking.
MR. KANAREK: Well, your Honor, as I say, if this were actually like —
THE COURT: Mr. Manson was only one of quite a number of people that were present; isn’t that right?
MR. KANAREK: Yes. But our position is that this was primarily directed against Mr. Manson
THE COURT: You can’t show that by showing these photographs.
MR. KANAREK: No, but I can show a military operation.
When the police come out and arrest someone for a traffic ticket, your Honor, they don’t bring automatic weapons and helicopters.
THE COURT: Is there any way that we can speed this up?
MR. KANAREK: I will be glad to.
THE COURT: Can you stipulate to anything in the way of photographs, Mr. Bugliosi?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Let me see them.
MR. FITZGERALD: These are the ones already marked.
MR. KANAREK: I would be glad to pass on to other things. I would be glad to get together with Mr. Bugliosi on this and see if we can’t stipulate.
THE COURT: The witness has not identified a number of these photographs.
MR. BUGLIOSI: And he is not the one to do it.
We had two sheriffs on the stand. The main one was Gleason and they passed over Gleason, who was in charge of the raid.
THE COURT: If you are trying to lay a foundation for the admission of the photographs with this witness, you are not being successful, at least with a number of them. He says he doesn’t know. “It looks like this,” and “It may be that.”
MR. KANAREK: Those that he doesn’t know I am putting aside, your Honor.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Let me say this. I am going to recall Sergeant Gleason to the stand for other testimony, and maybe at that time we can go into this.
MR. KANAREK: It is agreeable.
THE COURT: In the first place, if you will look at the photographs, if you can stipulate to the foundation for all of them, you can reserve your objection as to relevance and materiality to the time that the offer is made, and we can save a great deal of time.
MR. KANAREK: That is agreeable.
MR. BUGLIOSI: All right.
MR. KANAREK: Shall we take the afternoon recess, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes. We will take the recess at this time.
(Whereupon, all counsel return to their respective places at counsel table and the following proceedings occur in open court within the presence and hearing of the jury:)
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we will take our afternoon recess.
Do not converse with anyone or form or express any opinion regarding the case until it is finally submitted to you.
The Court will recess for 15 minutes.
(Recess.)
THE COURT: All parties, counsel and jurors are present.
Anything further, Mr. Kanarek?
MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.
Q: Now, Mr. Flynn, as a matter of fact it’s a fair statement, Mr. Flynn, that you have not told us the truth in this courtroom concerning the knife at your throat?
A: You are saying that, sir.
Q: I am asking you, Mr. Flynn.
A: I told you the truth.
Q: Then is there some reason, is there some reason — I will withdraw that and ask you this way:
Did you tell Mr. Sartucci when you were at the Police Building on August 18th, 1970, did you tell Mr. Sartucci about the knife at your throat when Mr. Manson made these statements to you?
MR. BUGLIOSI: We have the tape-recorded conversation, your Honor, let’s introduce that into evidence.
The question violates the best evidence rule.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. KANAREK: I may this —
THE COURT: The objection is overruled, Mr. Kanarek, the witness can answer the question.
THE WITNESS: Sir?
MR. KANAREK: May the question be read, your Honor?
THE COURT: Read the question.
(Whereupon, the reporter reads the question as follows:
“Q. Then is there some reason, is there some reason — I will withdraw that and ask you this way:
Did you tell Mr. Sartucci when you were at the Police Building on August 18th, 1970, did you tell Mr. Sartucci about the knife at your throat when Mr. Manson made these statements to you?”)
THE WITNESS: Well, I told them the truth.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Mr. Flynn, my question is, as a matter of fact you made no statement to Mr. Sartucci in your interview of August the 18th, 1970 about a knife at your throat at a time when Mr. Manson supposedly made these statements to you, did you, because it did not happen, is that right, Mr. Flynn?
A: I did not mention it if it is not in the record because, you know, I says, you know, “I’ll bring it up here.”
Q: Oh, you’ll bring it up here?
A: Yes.
Q: You had it in your mind — in other words, you deliberately lied to Mr. Sartucci, is that right?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Badgering the witness. It’s a misstatement, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
THE WITNESS: I did not lie to him.
THE COURT: There is no question pending.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: You were holding back, is that it, Mr. Flynn, to spring it on us in this courtroom, is that right?
A: No. I told officers about this before, you see.
Q: And Mr. Flynn, are you telling us — do you remember when the man was there taking down all the notes, like Mr. Hollombe is here in this court?
A: Yes.
Q: You were talking to Mr. Sartucci on August 18th, 1970?
A: Yes.
Q: You deliberately did not tell him about the knife at the throat?
A: You say deliberately. I say I might not come up with it.
Q: You might not have come up with it?
A: Yes.
Q: It wasn’t a very important point. The reason it wasn’t is because it never happened; is that right?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Argument, your honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: You were at the Police Building because you wanted to be there and help the police, is that right?
A: Well, you see, I was asked if I was willing to testify by the officers, you see, or come down and see the District Attorney, you see, and I says yes, you know, so it might not have sprung right there, but I know it happened.
Q: You know it happened?
A: Yes.
Q: I see.
A: Yes.
Q: You mean, Mr. Flynn, that you made it up for the purposes of this courtroom, is that correct, Mr. Flynn?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Badgering the witness your Honor. He is lying.
THE COURT: I did not hear you, Mr. Bugliosi.
MR. KANAREK: Who is lying?
MR. BUGLIOSI: You are, sir.
THE COURT: I admonish you Mr. Bugliosi.
MR. KANAREK: Your honor, may we approach the bench?
THE COURT: No need to approach the bench.
The objection’s overruled.
Is there a question pending?
Do you have an unanswered question?
(The record was read by the reporter.)
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, in view of Mr. Bugliosi’s statement, I would ask to be sworn. He has accused me of lying in the presence of the jury.
THE COURT: You are asking questions, which you have a right to do, Mr. Kanarek.
The jury is admonished to disregard the comment of Mr. Bugliosi.
MR. KANAREK: May the last question be read, your Honor, before Mr. Hollombe leaves?
THE COURT: Yes.
(The record was read by the reporter.)
THE WITNESS: No.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: You are hesitating in your answer, Mr. Flynn.
A: I didn’t make it up. I just came here to tell you the truth.
Q: You mean, you came here to tell us what you decided to tell us; is that right?
A: What Mr. Manson said to me, you see.
Q: Did anyone in the police building, Mr. Sartucci, keep you from telling him about Mr. Manson putting a knife at your throat when, supposedly, he made this statement?
MR. BUGLIOSI: That assumes someone asked him. I object.
THE COURT: Read the question.
(The question was read by the reporter.)
THE COURT: I think the question is ambiguous, Mr. Kanarek.
Reframe the question.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Did Mr. Sartucci ask you “When did you first become aware of the fact that Charles Manson was being charged with the crimes that he is presently on trial for?”
Did Mr. Sartucci ask you that, Mr. Flynn?
A: Yes.
Q: And, Mr. Flynn, directing your attention to the time that you were in the kitchen, you are telling us, the time that you were in the kitchen.
A: Yes.
Q: Do you have that in mind?
A: Yes.
Q: What kind of knife was that, Mr. Flynn?
A: It was just a kitchen knife.
Q: A kitchen knife?
A: Yes.
It was a little kitchen knife like this (indicating). It was sharp.
MR. KANAREK: Mr. Flynn is showing us —
THE WITNESS: About a foot. About like that.
MR. KANAREK: That is a foot?
THE WITNESS: It is a foot to me.
I am saying it is about like that.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, I suggest that is about eight inches.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: It was a little kitchen knife?
Where did it come from, Mr. Flynn?
A: From the table.
Q: You saw Mr. Manson pick it up?
A: Yes.
Q: You saw him pick it up?
A: Yes, he picked it up from the table.
Q: I see.
It was a knife that you were using before to prepare your food?
A: I don’t know if it was the one I was using. I was using a fork.
Q: You prepared your food with a fork? I see.
A: Well I forget right now.
Q: How wide was the blade?
A: About this wide. (Indicating.) I’d say a half an inch.
Q: How thick was the blade?
A: It was just a knife blade. That thick. (Indicating.)
Q: Could you give us a dimension for it, Mr. Flynn?
A: Well, just a knife blade.
Q: And this eight inches that you have shown us, or whatever distance you showed us, does that include the length of the handle?
A: Yes.
Q: How long was the handle?
A: I don’t remember the knife too well, you know.
Q: Do you have difficulty remembering the knife?
A: The knife, yes. The knife itself, you know.
Except that it was at my throat, and I remember that.
Q: I see.
A: Yes.
Q: What happened, Mr. Flynn, after Mr. Manson took the knife back? Where did he place the knife?
A: Well, I was sitting like this, and he put it on this side. He set it down.
Q: And you kept on eating?
A: Well, he says, “If you are going to do me like that,” you know, “Then here is the knife,” you know. “and you kill me,” you see.
In words like that, you see.
Q: Now Mr. Flynn, did you take LSD?
A: I have taken it seven times, eight times.
Q: Have you ever had delusions, Mr. Flynn?
A: Well —
MR. BUGLIOSI: Ambiguous, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: What is a delusion?
THE COURT: Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: What is a delusion?
THE COURT: You don’t understand the question?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: All right.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: You have taken quite a bit of LSD; is that right, Mr. Flynn?
A: Well, it is quite an amount for me.
Q: Yes have you taken quite a bit?
A: It is quite an amount for me.
Q: My question is, Mr. Flynn: You have taken it on many occasions?
A: I have taken it seven, eight times, yes.
Q: Now, do you ever have occasion, Mr. Flynn, when you take — well, would you describe for us, when you took this LSD, what effect did it have on your mind?
A: Well mostly on my legs. They shook, and I felt like pissing on myself, you know. And it was just, you know, it was just like that.
Q: Now, on occasion, Mr. Flynn, do you have some difficulty in remembering whether, in fact, something did occur, or whether you just thought about it?
A: Well, you will have to be more specific about what occurred, you see.
A lot of things occur, you know.
What are you driving at that you want me to answer you?
Q: My question — may I have an answer to that question, Mr. Flynn?
A: As to what occurred?
Q: Do you remember the last question I asked you?
A: Would you frame it again?
MR. KANAREK: May it be read, your Honor?
THE COURT: Read the question.
(Whereupon, the reporter reads the pending question.)
THE COURT: Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: Well, did occur what?
THE COURT: Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: I suggest you reframe the question.
MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Now, Mr. Flynn, do you — have you had the experience of on occasion not knowing whether something in fact happened or not, something that you think did happen?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Ambiguous.
THE COURT: Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: You may answer. The objection is overruled.
THE WITNESS: Something that I think happened and in fact did not happen, you say?
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Do you understand the question, Mr. Flynn?
A: Well, that is what I am (Indistinguishable)
Q: Will you listen to the court reporter, I think the Judge will allow the question to be read to you, if you wish, instead of asking me Mr. Flynn, would you take the question from the court reporter if Judge Older allows it to be read.
THE COURT: Apparently he still does not understand it, Mr. Kanarek.
Try again.
MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Mr. Flynn, have you had the experience of not knowing whether something that you thought happened had in fact happened?
A: I don’t understand the question.
Q: You don’t understand that question?
A: No.
Q: Have you had the experience, Mr. Flynn, of in your mind thinking that something happened when really it never happened.
Have you ever had that experience?
A: Yes.
Q: That happens from time to time with you, is that correct?
A: I don’t understand you.
Q: You don’t understand that last question?
A: No.
MR. KANAREK: May that be read, your Honor?
THE COURT: Well, if he doesn’t understand it, Mr. Kanarek reading it won’t help.
Reframe it.
MR. KANAREK: Very well.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Mr. Flynn, have you stated that you were all mixed up? Have you stated that in the last couple of years?
A: Have I ever stated that?
Q: Have you stated in the last couple of years that you are all mixed up?
A: I have stated that I was the most mixed-up man in the whole world.
Q: You have stated that?
A: Yes, yes, I have stated that.
Q: And you have stated — and it is during this period of time that you have taken LSD, is that a fair statement? Is that true?
A: Well I don’t understand your question.
Q: Have you stated this on many occasions, Mr. Flynn, have you stated on many occasions that you are the most missed-up man in the world?
A: In the whole world.
Q: Have you stated this on many occasions in the last couple of years?
A: Well, I have stated myself like that.
Q: On many different occasions you have stated this, it that correct, Mr. Flynn?
A: I wouldn’t say that. I wouldn’t say that.
Q: Well, on how many different occasions then have you stated this?
A: Just when I felt like it.
Q: Well, would you tell us on how many occasions then did you state it?
A: Just when I felt like it, you know.
Q: Well, can you think back and tell us how many times?
A: Well, let’s say one time okay?
Q: Pardon?
A: Let’s say one time.
Q: You stated it only once?
A: Yes.
Q: I see.
A: Okay.
Q: Now, directing your attention to your thinking and your state or mind right now, right this instant, right now, this minute, would you say that you are the most mixed up man in the world?
A: Well, the environment — the change — but it’s not mixed up, you know.
Q: Would you say that right now you feel that you are the most mixed up man in the world, right this minute?
A: I wouldn’t say that.
Q: You wouldn’t say that?
A: No.
Q: Do you feel you are mixed up right now?
A: I wouldn’t say that.
Q: You mean that is untrue?
A: You are saying that.
Q: Mr. Flynn, do you understand that I am not saying anything? I am asking you questions.
A: You mean that it is untrue, my statement that I am mixed up, is that what you are saying?
Q: You know what I mean when I say —
A: Well, you are saying that I am mixed up, you see, and that it is untrue, and my statement is untrue. That is what you just told me.
Q: Do you know what I mean when I say questions? Yes or no, Mr. Flynn, do you know what a question is, Mr. Flynn, a question, when someone asks you a question, right?
Do you know what that means when someone asks you a question, right?
Do you know what that means when someone asks a question?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, do you know the difference between asking a question and giving an answer? Do you know the difference?
A: Yes.
Q: And so my question to you is, Mr. Flynn —
A: Yes.
Q: As you sit there on the witness stand right now —
A: Uh-huh.
Q: — do you feel that you. are the most mixed up man in the world?
A: No.
Q: Now, at times in the past you have stated that you are the most mixed up man in the world, it that correct?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Asked and answered, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: My question is, Mr. Flynn, how many times have you stated that in the last couple of years?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Asked and answered.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Now, when you spoke, Mr. Flynn — let me ask you this:
Would you tell us, Mr. Flynn, in August of 1969 — let’s take the day of the raid, do you remember the day of the raid, right?
A: Yes.
Q: How many times before the day of the raid in 1969 had you taken LSD?
A: Let’s say about six or seven times.
Q: And when you took this LSD, besides the effects that you have already told us about, what effect did it have, other effects, other than what you have already told us.
A: Well, the impression that it left me under, you see, is that a person that would use this to re-course his life, you see, would be the type of person that was not content at the (Indistinguishable) he took it, you see, so this is the type of effect and the kind of reasoning that it gave me, you see, that is the effect.
Q: When you took the LSD Mr. Flynn, then is it true that it affected your mind and your thinking?
A: Well, it could have.
Q: Well, did it?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Calls for a medical conclusion, your Honor.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor
THE COURT: Overruled, you my answer.
THE WITNESS: I wouldn’t say so.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: It had no effect on you?
A: I wouldn’t say so.
Q: Pardon?
A: I wouldn’t say so, no, no effect.
Q: It had no effect on you?
A: No, I wouldn’t say so.
Q: Well, after you took the LSD you, at far as — did you see any colors when you took LSD?
A: Well, yes.
Q: You saw a lot of colors, right?
A: Yes.
Q: A lot of cubes?
Well, would you describe the colors; what did you see?
MR. BUGLIOSI: It is irrelevant, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Did you ever take LSD with Linda Kasabian, Mr. Flynn?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever take LSD in Linda Kasabian’s presence?
A: No.
Q: Did you take LSD at the Spahn Ranch?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you take LSD in the summer of 1969?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Well, now, you told us that LSD had no effect on you. You took it six or seven times for no effect?
A: I did not say it didn’t have no effect on me. I feel that it didn’t have effect on me.
Q: That is what?
A: That it didn’t have, you know, an effect on me.
Q: That it did or did not?
A: It didn’t.
Q: It didn’t?
A: No, it didn’t serve nothing, you see, except laying down and shaking, you know.
Q: Now, did you see a television program, Mr. Flynn, where that television program had anything to do with any of the murders in connection —
THE COURT: (To Mr. Manson) Put your feet on the floor, sir.
MR. BUGLIOSI: It’s ambiguous, your Honor.
THE COURT: Did you finish the question, Mr. Kanarek?
MR. KANAREK: I will be glad to rephrase it, your Honor.
THE COURT: Read the question.
(Whereupon, the reporter read the pending question as follows:
“Q. Now, did you see a television program, Mr. Flynn, where that television program had anything to do with any of the murders in connection — ”)
MR. BUGLIOSI: It’s ambiguous.
MR. KANAREK: I hadn’t finished it, your Honor.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Did you see a television program, Mr. Flynn, in connection with — that had anything — or stated — where the program had something to do with any of the murders that we are concerned with in this case?
A: Yes.
Q: And is that, Mr. Flynn, how you found out — I will withdraw that and ask you.
Did you see a program, a television program concerning these murders at the Spahn Ranch?
A: Concerning the murders?
Q: Yes.
A: Are you talking about Tate and LaBianca?
Q: That is what I am talking about.
A: Yes.
Q: And did this television program cover all seven murders?
A: Well, they just reported the murders.
Q: Pardon?
A: They reported the murders on television, I don’t know how they do that, you know, but they do.
Q: Did the television program you are speaking of, did that program talk about the Sharon Tate murders and the LaBianca murders?
A: No, I think they just talked about Tate.
Q: Just talked about the Sharon Tate murders?
A: Something like that, yes.
Q: Right?
A: Well, I’ll tell you what I saw.
Q: I’m not asking — Mr. Flynn, I think the Judge —
THE COURT: He is trying to explain the answer, Mr. Kanarek, which he has a right to do.
MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: Have you finished your answer?
THE WITNESS: I wanted to tell him something about the television program.
THE COURT: That you saw?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, I am not soliciting what the program was which he purportedly saw.
THE WITNESS: They were talking about —
THE COURT: Just a moment.
MR. KANAREK: May we have the question read, your Honor?
THE COURT: Reframe the question.
(To the witness.)
Listen to the question and just answer the question.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: My question, Mr. Flynn, is, did the program talk about the Tate murders and the LaBianca murders, two different sets of murders?
Now, that is all my question is, Mr. Flynn.
A: I just saw the Tate — the Tate.
Q: You just saw the Tate murders, right?
A: Yes.
Q: And that is the time that you had this matter with the knife and so forth with Mr. Manson, is that right?
A: Well, it was after that.
Q: Pardon?
A: It was after that.
Q: It was after that?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, Mr. Flynn, how long after that was it?
I am only asking for that now, Mr. Flynn.
A: It could have been two, three, four days, you know, something like that.
Q: Or it might not have happened at all, is that right, Mr. Flynn?
A: What might not have happened?
Q: You don’t know what I am talking about?
A: Well, you just asked me how long after that was the conversation between me and Mr. Manson.
Did you say that?
Q: The question is not clear? I am saying it might not have happened at all, is that correct, Mr. Flynn?
A: What might not have happened?
Q: You don’t know what we are talking about?
A: Well, could you repeat the question.
MR. KANAREK: Yes.
Q: My question is, maybe the conversation that you are speaking of did not happen at all, Mr. Flynn.
A: The conversation between —
Q: Is that possible?
A: The conversation between me and Mr. Manson?
Q: The conversation that you say occurred between yourself and Mr. Manson, involving the knife.
It is possible that that did not happen?
A: It happened, Mister.
Q: Pardon?
A: It happened, Mister.
Q: It happened?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: No question?
A: I said it happened.
Q: You said it happened?
A: I say it happened.
Q: I see. Now, at the time that it happened, how many television programs had you seen concerning these murders, the Tate murders and the LaBianca murders?
A: I watched television every night, you know.
Q: You watched television every night?
A: When we was in the trailer, yes.
Q: Well that does not answer the question, Mr. Flynn.
A: Well, I can’t give you an account of how many, you know, but I was aware, you know, because it was there.
Q: Well, my question is how many times.
Would you give me an answer to that question, please?
A: You want me to give you an estimation how many times?
Let’s say two, three, four days that I watch on television, you know.
Q: Now, when I say the LaBianca murders to you, Mr. Flynn, how many murders does that bring to your mind?
A: I don’t know.
Q: Pardon?
A: I don’t know.
Q: You don’t know?
A: Uh-uh.
Q: And when I say the Tate murders to you, how many murders does that bring to your mind?
A: It was seven — seven.
Q: Pardon me?
A: Seven.
Q: The Tate murders were seven?
A: Seven.
Q: Now, when you saw these — you say you saw these TV broadcasts, two, three, four days, right?
A: (Indistinguishable) that length of time, yes.
Q: On how many different (Indistinguishable) during the day?
Did you see just one a day or two a day, or how many?
A: Well, we watched television at night, you know, and just when the news reporters had it, you know, in the television.
Q: Well, do you know on how many different (Indistinguishable); how many of them you saw?
A: They might bring it out two times a night, something like that, when they talk about it.
Q: Now, how far, Mr. Flynn, how far was the kitchen from where the TV was, Mr. Flynn
A: I would say the length of this room, maybe just a little bit (Indistinguishable), this length of this room.
Q: And in order to get to the kitchen from the TV place, how did you get there?
A: Well, in order to get from the TV place to the kitchen, right?
Q: Right.
A: How did I get there? Well, you walk outside the trailer, you had two or three little steps; you went down the steps and you went walking down like that, you know, you hit the boardwalk and you walk about 10, 12 feet and then the door was right there.
You opened the door, right there was the kitchen, and it standed alongside like that, you know, it was a long kitchen.
Q: All right, now, on the night that you say Mr. Manson made these statements —
A: I said day.
Q: Oh, pardon — it was during the day he made these statements, right?
A: Right.
Q: What time of the day?
A: Oh, well, the truck got there about 10:00, 11:00; something like that.
You know, in the morning the hay truck got there, and then I started unloading it with the truck driver. Then, we unloaded the hay truck, and I went in the kitchen.
Q: Now, on the day that Mr. Manson, you say, made these statements —
A: Yes.
Q: Did you watch TV where there was anything about these so-called murders?
A: Well, I was working, you know, I kept active around the ranch.
Q: Then you didn’t see any TV concerning these so-called murders on the day that you say Mr. Manson made these statements?
A: I said before that. Before that.
Q: It was before that how many days, Mr. Flynn.
A: I will say two, three days, four days.
Q: Five days?
A: No. It was right around there.
Q: Now, outside of that one time, Mr. Flynn, that one time, have you ever seen that knife other than that one time when you saw it, when you say Mr. Manson had it?
A: Well, I saw lots of knives up there. I don’t remember if I saw that one again or not, you know, but I saw lots of knives up there.
Q: Well, when you were sitting at the table, were you sitting at the table when Mr. Manson came into the room?
A: Yes.
Q: And at the time you were sitting at a table, was you back to the door?
A: I was sitting like this, and the door was like that. (Indicating.)
MR. BUGLIOSI: To your left rear?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Like that.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Now, at the time you were sitting at the table, did you hear a door open, when Mr. Manson came in?
A: I might have.
Q: Pardon?
A: I might have.
Q: Well, did you?
A: Well, I looked like this, you know. (Indicating.)
Q: You looked at him when he came through the door? You heard the sound of the door and you looked up and there was Mr. Manson.
A: Yes.
Q: Then what did Mr. Manson do?
A: Well, he just went like this. (Indicating.)
Q: He brushed off his shoulder?
A: Uh-huh, yes.
Q: Now, did you tell Mr. Sartucci about Mr. Manson brushing off his shoulder?
A: I could have told him, yes.
Q: Did you, Mr. Flynn?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: In fact, you didn’t; right?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Did you tell Mr. Sartucci about anyone else being in the room when Mr. Manson came in in connection with this knife incident?
A: I don’t remember.
Q: Now, some of these questions we have asked you you have waited 15 or 20 seconds to answer; right?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Badgering the witness, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You are saying that there is no question in your mind, you don’t remember that, is that right, Mr. Flynn?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Ambiguous, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Did you tell Mr. Sartucci about anybody else being in the room when Mr. Manson came in?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Asked and answered.
MR. KANAREK: No, it hasn’t, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Did you?
A: What?
Q: Did you tell Mr. Sartucci about anyone else being in the room when Mr. Manson first came into the kitchen?
A: I probably did. I don’t remember, you know.
A: You probably did?
A: Yes.
Q: How long did your conversation with Mr. Sartucci last in the police building?
A: Well, I was with him most of the day, you know.
Q: You were with him most of the day before you went to the police building; right?
A: Yes.
Q: You went to the police building after having discussed it with Mr. Sartucci most of the day; right?
A: Yes.
Q: And Mr. Sartucci ended up your conversation of many hours by having a court reporter there and you telling what you had told previously to him with a court reporter or with a man taking down the words the way this gentleman is here; right?
A: Well, there was a man, yes, like that.
Q: And that was at the end of the day after you had many hours of conversation with Mr. Sartucci; is that right?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Conversation about what, your Honor? It is ambiguous.
MR. KANAREK: That is not ambiguous.
I am asking whether he had —
MR. BUGLIOSI: Conversation about what?
MR. KANAREK: I am not required to ask the question that Mr. Bugliosi wants.
MR. BUGLIOSI: It is ambiguous.
THE COURT: Read the last question.
(The question was read by the reporter.)
THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
Just a moment.
To make it clear, let’s go back and read the last two questions.
(The record was read by the reporter.)
THE COURT: Now you may answer.
THE WITNESS: I talked with him that day.
MR. KANAREK: Pardon?
THE WITNESS: I talked with him that day for that many hours.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: And after the many hours of conversation, at the end of all this long conversation with Mr. Sartucci, you were taken into a room and there was a court reporter, or a man like this gentleman here, taking down the questions and the answers; is that right?
A: Yes.
Q: That was after the long conversation; right?
A: Yes.
Q: All right.
And is it a fair statement — let me ask you, Mr. Flynn, when is the first time in your lifetime that you mentioned to anybody this supposed use of a knife by Mr. Manson on you? When is the first time in your life that you mentioned that?
A: Well, there was some officers in Shoshone you see, and I talked to some officers in Shoshone that came up there.
Q: What officers did you talk to?
A: I guess they were from independence.
Q: Would you tell us their names?
A: I don’t know their names.
Q: You don’t know their names?
A: No.
A: All right.
Would you tell us who else you have told this to?
A: Well, I told that to some officers before.
Q: Well, tell us who they are, Mr. Flynn.
A: Well, I can’t recall all the police force and give you every name, you know.
Q: Well, did you tell it to Mr. Sartucci on August the 18th, 1970?
A: I might have, and then I might not.
Q: You might have and you might not?
A: Yes.
Q: Because it never happened?
MR. BUGLIOSI: That is argumentative
It may not have been discussed, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Well, then would you tell us who else?
Now, there are the officers in Shoshone that you told this to, you tell us.
A: You tell us what?
Q: You are telling us that there were some officers in Shoshone you told this to; right?
A: Yes.
Q: But you don’t know whether you told it to Officer Sartucci or not; right?
A: I don’t know. It might not have been brought up, you know.
Q: It might not have been brought up?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, you knew when you were speaking to Officer Santucci that you were supposedly telling him things that would be used in this trial; is that correct?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Calls for a conclusion, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Did you discuss this with Mr. Bugliosi?
A: Well I was asked if I would —
Q: My question is — that can be answered yes or no.
A: Yes.
Q: Before you took the witness stand, Mr. Flynn, did you tell Mr. Bugliosi about this supposed knife incident?
A: It is not supposed to me.
Q: Would you just tell me, Mr. Flynn, did you discuss it with Mr. Bugliosi?
A: Yes.
Q: So, you have told it to Mr. Bugliosi and the officers in Shoshone?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Right?
A: Yes.
Q: And you don’t know whether you told it to Mr. Sartucci or not; is that right?
A: Well, I can’t remember that well, you well.
Q: You have difficulty remembering; is that it?
A: No. It is that, you know, I am not used to this, you know.
Q: You are not used to this?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, when you were down in the police building; is it a fair statement, Mr. Flynn, that Mr. Sartucci was certainly friendly with you, wasn’t he?
A: Yes.
Q: And it was a friendly atmosphere down there; everybody was nice, to you; right?
A: Yes.
Q: Is that correct? Is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Did anybody tell you to hold anything back when you were in the police building talking to Mr. Sartucci?
A: No.
Q: So it is Mr. Bugliosi, and will you tell us anyone else that you told this to?
A: I can’t remember anyone else.
Q: Now, Mr. Flynn, you have stated that you are not interested in becoming famous because of this case; is that right?
A: That I am not interested?
I said that I didn’t come here to pompous myself on the matter that you are debating here.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, may the record reflect, I think it was, some 15 seconds before the witness answered this last question.
MR. BUGLIOSI: The record should reflect that he also looked at Mr. Kanarek very quizzically and scratched his head also, your Honor, in total disbelief.
Q BY MR. KANAREK: Mr. Flynn, you do consider yourself a movie actor; is that right?
You are a movie actor; right?
A: I have participated in that type of activities.
Q: Pardon?
A: I participated in that type of activities.
Q: And you hope to participate in the future in that kind of activity?
A: I have no objection to it, you see. I just don’t like discussing it with you, you know.
Q: But, Mr. Flynn, is it your desire to pursue your movie career?
A: Yes.
Q: It is? That is true?
A: Yes.
Q: And have you thought that by being someone who came to this court — I will withdraw that.
You recognize, do you not, that there is lots of publicity in this case about Mr. Manson; right?
A: Well, it is the type of publicity that I wouldn’t want, I will tell you that right now, you big catfish.
Q: Correct.
Mr. Flynn, it is not the kind of publicity that —
THE COURT: On that, Mr. Kanarek, on that note, we will adjourn.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, I have just one more question, if I may. Just one question on this note.
THE COURT: I am sure there will be more tomorrow.
MR. KANAREK: Yes, Honor.
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, do not converse with anyone or form or express any opinion regarding the case until it is finally submitted to you.
The court will adjourn until 9:45.
MR. FITZGERALD: Could we meet briefly, your Honor, after court?
THE COURT: The defendants?
MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. Among themselves.
THE COURT: Very well.
(Whereupon at 4:15 o’clock p.m. the court was in recess.)
