1:40 P.M.
-- oOo --

THE COURT: People against Watson.

Let the record show all jurors, counsel and defendant present.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Watkins, please.

resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

THE CLERK: You've been previously sworn.

Would you restate your name for the record?

THE WITNESS: Paul Watkins.


Q: Mr. Watkins, I think this noon when we broke we were talking about belladonna and you were telling us about the batch you were brewing up in Spahn Ranch.

Do you recall that?

A: Yeah, I recall that.

Q: And you said that it was being prepared in some sort of a tea form, something to drink, I take it?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, when that was being prepared, was Mr. Watson there, if you know?

A: Yes, he was there.

Q: And did you see him do anything about the belladonna you were using?

A: Yes.

Q: What did he do?

A: He took a chunk of root about three-quarters of an inch long and about an inch in diameter and walked off chewing on it.

Q: Did you see him again that day?

A: No, saw him three days later.

Q: Three days later?

A: Yes.

Q: And what, if anything, did you notice at that time?

A: I noticed that he was bruised, was cut from one end to the other and had a big blackened, red and blue eye, looked like he had been in a heck of a fight.

Q: Can you fix the time of the year that this occurred in?

A: Yeah, it would be spring of 1968 -- no, '69.

Q: March-April of '69?

A: April.

Q: April of '69?

A: Seems like about April.

Q: And you had gone for three whole days; is that correct?

A: Yes. It seemed like about three days.

Q: Did you ever see him use belladonna at any other time?

A: No.

Q: I think you told us this morning -- I am sorry. Did you want to say something?

A: I just left shortly thereafter.

Q: I think you told us this morning you prepared this preparation at the request of Mr. Manson; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Did he tell you why he wanted it prepared?

A: Yes.

Q: What did he say?

A: He said he wanted to poison some guy. We were driving through the hills and we met some guy that kicked us off his land.

So he said he wanted to poison him and asked me if I knew any poisons and so I said, "Yeah."

So I made him up a batch of poison.

Q: This batch of poison that you are telling us is the belladonna that you were preparing?

A: Yes; also poison if you take too much.

Q: How much did you prepare, if you remember?

A: About a gallon.

Q: Did you ever see what became of that?

A: So far as I know, it got put on the shelf in the trailer and that was the last time I saw of it.

Q: I think you told us also this morning that in heavy doses, belladonna has a tendency to knock you out, as you put it; correct?

A: Yes.

Q: And with milder doses, however, you can function; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Does it have any peculiar characteristics on the body after you have taken it?

A: Yes.

Q: Like what?

A: Well, say, if you took a mild dose, a mild dose will only take you like on a three-day trip. Then you would have blurry vision for about a week after that and you would have a hard time moving your body and you forget what you was thinking about and forget what you was talking about.

You may be talking about something and then all of a sudden forget what you was doing and ask somebody to remind you of what you were saying or something.

Q: Now, did you ever take belladonna and speed together?

A: Yes. That is a common thing for people who take belladonna.

As a matter of fact, the Indians have an organic speed that they take with it, another plant on the desert.

They take the two together, because one puts you down and the other one compensates for the physical effect and keeps you up. The idea is so that you can still walk around and function and still operate.

Q: At the time that you took belladonna and speed together, did you thereafter continue whatever you happened to be doing?

A: What?

Q: Well, what happened when you took belladonna and speed at the same time?

A: It still doesn't cut down on the heaviness of the hallucination.

Belladonna is a hallucinogen. People call LSD a hallucinogen but it is not anywhere near as hallucinogenic as belladonna.

I mean, you hallucinate so strongly that you completely lose touch with what you would call reality.

In other words, if I were on belladonna now, I wouldn't necessarily have to be seeing all these people in this courtroom and all you. I may just be seeing some plum trees and the ocean and in another reality.

Q: You are completely detached from reality; is that correct?

A: Complete hallucination, yes.

Q: Do you move about? Can you move about?

A: Depending upon the dose. If you take it rightly, what I call rightly, if you take a moderate dose with some sort of stimulant, then, of course, you can still move about and still do what you are doing and still keep some kind of a cognizance about you, remember who you are and things like that.

THE COURT: You say a mild dose gives you a 3-day trip?

THE WITNESS: Yeah; so a strong dose would give you about a 10-day trip.

THE COURT: How about ¾ of an inch by 1 inch, would that be mild or a strong dose?

THE WITNESS: That would be a pretty moderate dose -- medium, I'd say.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Well, if we are on a scale, are we talking about mild, moderate or medium or severe?

A: Yeah.

Q: Where would this be on the scale?

A: It would be in the middle.

Q: But do you think one could function after chewing a piece of that belladonna the size you have described?

A: It all depends on the individual. I think you could function. I have eaten more and still been able to function.

Q: Is that without the assistance of some sort of a stimulant, like speed?

A: Well, you have, -- it helps to have the assistance of the speed.

Q: I think you told us the day you saw Watson walk off, he just walked off chewing the thing; right?

A: Yeah.

Q: You don't know whether he left the ranch or anything of that nature?

A: He did leave the ranch.

Q: Did you see how?

A: I believe he hitch-hiked off down the road, hitch-hiked and he said he was going to get his motorcycle out of the shop.

Q: Did Watson have a motorcycle, as far as you know?

A: As far as what he told me.

Q: Had you ever seen him with a motorcycle about the ranch?

A: No, I don't think the motorcycle had ever made it there. He got stoned and cracked it up before it ever came back.

Q: Who did?

A: Tex.

Q: Is it the same period, now, you are talking about, chewing on the belladonna?

A: Yeah.

Q: Can you tell us what Watson, you know -- describe him physically from the time you first saw him in 1968, something about his height and weight, how he appeared to you, physcially.

A: Yeah.

Q: Can you tell us about that, please?

A: It all looked quite normal, average; well, the same height as he is now, about six foot it looked like, and was much more filled out than he is now -- let's say, like I am -- much more filled out in the places and much more healthy looking. He was a very healthy looking young man.

Q: This is when you first met him?

A: Yeah.

Q: Now, how about when you left in about October '69?

A: Well, then physically he is still just about as healthy but his hair was getting really long and he was looking really scraggly about that time.

We was all getting to look pretty scraggly about that time.

Q: And how about the fill-out of his body, or filled out as you called it?

A: Well, it was later on that -- about in the summer - time when we came up to the Barker Ranch he had lost a whole lot of weight and he looked quite unhealthy to me.

Q: When was this, now?

A: In September.

Q: Of '69?

A: Yes.

Q: You say he looked unhealthy?

A: Yes.

Q: Can you describe or elaborate on that?

A: Well, looked skinny and pale and unhappy and discontent, so that would go for a mental unhealth and a physical unhealth, both.

Q: Do you know whether he had a tendency at that time to spit a lot or spit up a lot?

A: I think he did, I don't know; but I think he and Brenda both had that thing where they was always spitting up a lot.

Q: Is this characteristic of belladonna use, if you know?

A: Yeah, it is a characteristic of belladonna use. I wouldn't conclude that it came from that.

Q: In what respect is it characteristic of belladonna?

A: Belladonna creates a real heavy phlegm in your throat, like I was saying, "cottonmouth"; real, real heavy, like a thick mixture of peanut butter and honey in your mouth. You are always wanting to get rid of it some way or another.

Q: Mr. Watkins, you told us this morning, also, that many of the helter-skelter discussions you had with Manson were while you were under the influence of LSD; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Mr. Manson discuss helter-skelter to the same degree or as elaborately the very first time you heard it as you did the last?

A: No.

Q: How did it start out?

A: It started out in about New Year's -- as a matter of fact, it was New Year's Eve between 1968 and 1969, that Charlie was down in the city and the rest of the family was up at the Barker Ranch; and he came up to the Barker Ranch and he began talking about this album that the Beatles had out, it was newly out at that time, and about -- he said, "Are you hep to what the Beatles are saying," and began to say that the Beatles were prophecying a revolution and that they were really holes in the infinite, which means that God was talking through them because they were supposedly holes; and then from that time on -- then we began to write songs about the revolution, and from that time on it just grew from day to day, a little more was added onto it, and a little -- the picture would get a little more clearer; in other words, he'd add a little bit more to it, like the story that I told the court about how it was all to come down, how the revolution was to take place, that story wasn't told in one sitting down like I am telling it today. It was told over a period of five, six months to me, so it was built, you know, one little bit at a time; because I know it's really unbelievable to you people because I am sitting down and telling it, but it was something that sort of snuck up on me, you know, just a little bit at a time and it didn't really seem too farfetched when you are swallowing it just a little bit at a time.

Q: And it finally developed into the complete discussion that you have told us about now; is that correct?

A: Yes, it finally developed into a state of consciousness on my part and on everyone in the family's part.

We didn't know when it was happening -- like I'd look out the window and wonder if it was going to happen today, you know -- think what was the quickest way to get to shelter if it was to happen right now.

Q: Well, the shelter that you talked about was the hole, wasn't it?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you ever go out looking for that hole in the ground?

A: Yes.

Q: On more than one occasion?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you really believe it existed?

A: Like you would say, more I hoped that it did.

Q: What did he tell you you were going to find when you found the hole in the ground?

A: Well, he said that entrance, that the snakes would have made their home in the entrance of the hole, rattlesnakes, so that we would have to first of all learn how to get around the snakes, make friends with the snakes and then he said way down in the hole that there would be a city of gold.

And he read those words from the Revelation and that there would be a tree that had -- these words from the Revelation -- that there was a tree with 12 different kinds of fruit that changed every month and that there would be light but there would be no sun.

Q: Did anyone ever question him about that?

A: Not that I know.

Q: Did you believe it was so when he told it to you?

A: It was getting a little far out for me, but at that point, I didn't want to not believe it, because if I started -- I had already invested pretty near a year into that family and if I started not believing Charlie, then I would have had to discount all the thing I believed before, and that would have invalidated me.

I would have had to say, "You have been a fool" to myself.

Q: And you didn't want to make that kind of concession?

A: No, I didn't want to be a fool.

Q: Was this before or after you met Mr. Crockett?

A: What was?

Q: Looking for the hole?

A: Before.

Q: Is that one of the things you discussed with Mr. Crockett?

A: Yes.

Q: And is that one of the things that disenchanted you with Mr. Manson and his philosophy?

A: I didn't buy the idea of going down through a hole. No, that didn't particularly disenchant me.

Q: Did you think enough of it to go out and look for this hole in the ground?

A: Well, we would go out with Charlie and walk around the desert and surmise as to where it might be.

As a matter of fact, we ever bought $300 worth of maps one time so that we could study the desert and maybe find out where it was.

Q: Did Charlie have any thoughts about right and wrong?

A: Yes.

Q: What did he tell you about that?

A: He said there was no such thing.

Q: That is right or wrong?

A: Yes.

Q: And that everything was what? One way or the other?

A: Everything was all right.

Q: Anything you wanted to do was all right?

A: Yes.

Q: How about killing?

A: He said that was all right, too.

Q: Did he have any idea about the parts of a human being, so far as Devil, God, anything so far as that is concerned?

A: He said the white man was God. He was closest to God because his skin was white, but then also it was the Devil and that the Devil is God and that they are both one.

Q: And everybody had that in them; is that right?

A: Everybody had both things in them, yes.

Q: How about time? Did time mean anything?

A: Time mean anything?

Q: Yes.

A: He said there was no such thing as that, either.

Q: And did he say things like that in connection with the clock or things of that nature, calendars?

A: We didn't use them, clocks or calendars.

Q: Did you have any contact with the outside world?

A: Very little.

Q: Were there newspapers coming to the ranch, if you know?

A: Not that I know.

Q: Did you ever see a newspaper at the ranch?

A: No.

Q: Were there any radios at the ranch?

A: Not that I know.

Q: How about electricity? Was there electricity?

A: There was electricity.

Q: At Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: How about Barker?

A: No.

Q: I think you told us this morning about meeting Tex and Ella, as I think they were coming up the road. They had been to the city?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Tex look like he was on an acid trip then, if you could tell?

A: Yes, he did. As a matter of fact, he told me that he was.

Q: Could you tell by looking at him?

A: Yes. I could tell something was up.

Q: Did you ever hear of an acid known as orange sunshine?

A: Yes.

Q: How would that rate, if you can rate acid, as between heavy, mild, medium?

A: Generally, it is pretty heavy.

Q: How about white lightning?

A: Generally, that is pretty heavy, too.

Q: Were these types of acid available at the ranch, if you know?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Charlie have them under control?

A: Yes.

MR. BUBRICK: May I have just a minute, your Honor?

THE COURT: How much schooling have you had?

THE WITNESS: Up until I just about finished high school.

THE COURT: About finished high school. How old are you now?

THE WITNESS: 21. I lacked six months of finishing high school.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Mr. Watkins, do you ever remember Manson saying anything about killing a human being in relationship to the person who does the killing?

A: Yes. I have heard him talk about that.

Q: What did he say?

A: Well, he always talked about how we had to be willing to die for each other in the family, and that at the same time, we had to be willing to kill each other.

We had to be willing to kill for each other and we had to be willing to die for each other and we had to be willing to kill each other.

Q: Did he ever tell you if you killed a human being you would only be killing a part of yourself?

A: Yes, he did that.

Q: Did he tell you that that was all right?

A: Yes. He would say you can never really kill anyone, that there was no such thing as death, that you couldn't really ever kill anyone anyway and if you did, you was only killing because we are all one anyway, that you would be only killing yourself.

I didn't want to kill myself. So I didn't -- it didn't seem like it was all right to me.

Q: Mr. Watkins, can you tell us the male members who were in the family at or about the time you left? That would be October '69?

A: Yes.

Q: Who were they?

A: There was myself and Charlie Manson and Steve Grogan.

MR. BUGLIOSI: That is Clem Tufts?

THE WITNESS: Yes, Clem Tufts -- and Juan. You could call him a member, I guess. He was around.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Juan Flynn?

A: Yes. Danny DeCarlo and Bill Vance.

Q: Watson, of course?

A: Oh, yes, Tex, and there was some other guys that hung around but that was the essence of it.

Q: Do you think there were the principal members of the family, the names you have just enumerated?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Mr. Watson have his own thing going while he was in the family, if you know?

A: What do you mean his own thing?

Q: Yes. You told us about other members of the family being in competition, so to speak, with Mr. Manson?

A: I did?

Q: Well, didn't you tell us that Bruce Davis was competing with Manson, he had more ego than Manson, something like that?

MR. BUGLIOSI: I think that was Poston's testimony, the previous witness.

MR. BUBRICK: I beg your pardon, I turned too far.

THE WITNESS: It is true, but I didn't say it.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Well, did you ever hear Mr. Manson -- I'm sorry -- Mr. Watson arguing with Mr. Manson about control of the family?

A: No.

Q: Did he ever stand up to Mr. Manson in any regard that you are aware of?

A: No.

Q: Did he ever refuse to do anything that he was asked to do by Mr. Manson?

A: Not that I saw.

Q: Was there some incident that occurred between you and an automobile, taking of an automobile?

A: Yes.

Q: What was that?

A: That was about April of 1969 and Charlie told me to go steal a car, and preferably a four-wheeled drive vehicle that would carry a lot of supplies and a lot of people; and I didn't particularly care for the idea of doing it -- and it was all the way he did it, all the way he went about asking, and where I was at that point there was no way I could say no.

Even though I didn't want to, I had to. I did it. Anyway, it was either do it or leave, and so I said I would.

Then, once I said I would, there was no way of getting out of it then because Charlie said that if you didn't do what you said you would do, then you was just no good, that's all there was to it; and so I did. I stole it.

Q: And brought it back --

A: Brought it back to the ranch.

Q: -- to the ranch?

Did you bring it over to Mr. Manson?

A: No -- yeah, I did for a moment, and then he gave it back to me and said, "Take all the girls," or 16 of them, "and take them to the desert along with a bunch of supplies"; and so I loaded them all in the truck and started driving to the desert and got as far as Lancaster and we all got thrown in jail.

Q: Is this a milk truck of some sort?

A: Well, it was a great big van, like a milk truck, but it was four-wheel drive.

Q: Was Barbara Hoyt one of the people that went on the trip with you up to Lancaster?

A: I believe so.

Q: Incidentally, did you ever see --

A: Yes, she was.

Q: -- see Barbara taking any acid at the Gresham Street house?

A: No, I don't recall that she ate any acid there.

Q: How about Spahn Ranch?

A: I don't recall her eating any acid there, either.

MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further, your Honor.

MR. BUGLIOSI: A few more questions, your Honor.


Q: You say that Tex acted dumb but he wasn't, in your opinion?

A: Yes.

Q: Would you elaborate on that?

A: Well, he never hardly ever talked, you know, like most people talk and tell you how smart they are by the way they talk. He never hardly ever did that, and he just seemed really, like he'd have dumb expressions on his face, you know, just sort of dumb looking like someone who really didn't care; but I knew that he wasn't, because of where he was.

I met him in Dennis Wilson's house; Dennis Wilson has $20 million; and I met him in a certain class of society where you just ain't too dumb to be there, most people you have to work to get there; and there was always good dope around there and there was always pretty girls.

Q: And Tex was right in the middle of it?

A: Most dumb people didn't get there.

Q: So you had the impression, then, that he wasn't dumb at all; is that correct?

A: Yes, and it is also my understanding that even if someone acts like they are dumb and to most people that they would appear to be dumb, somewhere inside of them that they are really smart.

Q: Did you have that impression about Tex Watson?

A: Yes.

THE COURT: How do you spell "helter-skelter"?

THE WITNESS: H-e-l-t-e-r s-k-e-l-t-e-r.

THE COURT: Did you ever see Manson write the word "Helter-skelter"?


THE COURT: How did he spell it?

THE WITNESS: I believe it was -- I don't remember -- because he wrote it one time on the wall of the nightclub at Spahn's Ranch.

THE COURT: How did he spell it then, do you recall?


THE COURT: Did he have an "a" in helter-skelter?

THE WITNESS: I don't recall.

THE COURT: Are you through, Mr. Bugliosi?

MR. BUGLIOSI: Just two or three more questions.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: When did you meet Paul Crockett for the first time?

A: In the late May of 1969.

Q: At Barker Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: This was after you left Charlie and the family?

A: This was when I decided to leave Charlie and the family and I went to Barker Ranch and then Paul Crockett was there and I met him that day.

Q: How long after one ingests belladonna does it normally start taking effect?

A: About an hour and then for the first effects to come on, and then about four hours for the hallucinogenic effect, for the physical effects to start subsiding and then hallucinogenic effects to start coming on.

Q: With respect to this incident down at the Fountain of the World where Charlie asked you to go hang on the cross, what was your state of mind? Did you actually intend to hang on the cross?

A: I would have, and my state of mind was that I was fully willing to do it; but I also knew that if I was fully willing to do it that I wouldn't have to.

Q: So you knew that if you told Charlie that you would do it, he would tell you you didn't have to?

A: Well, yeah, but it wasn't so much just a matter of telling him. I mean, I could stand there, he was pretty sharp -- in other words, I could stand there and say, "Okay," but if I really didn't want to and I was shaking inside and it was apparent that I was lying and saying, "Okay, I will do it," then he would have still said, "Go ahead and do it."

Q: But if you had convinced --

A: That you would really do it, you had to really play the part.

Q: He would call if off, right, as he did?

A: As he did.

Q: You were enumerating some of the members of the family at the Barker Ranch when you finally left the family; you didn't mention the name of Bruce Davis.

Was he up there?

A: When I finally --

Q: In October of 1969.

A: Yes, he was.

Q: And he was a member of the family; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: And how would you describe Mr. Davis' relationship with Charles Manson?

A: Bruce was sort of competing with Charlie.

Q: Not completely subservient to Charlie?

A: No, he wasn't.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further --

THE WITNESS: He did --

Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Go ahead.

A: He did what Charlie said; but he would just do it -- in other words, he would grudgingly do it.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.


Q: Was Watson completely subservient to Manson?

A: Didn't seem he fought with Charlie like -- one time, one time only, did I ever see Tex ever -- Charlie ever tell Tex to do something and Tex begrudgingly do it, and that was one time when Tex had put a brand new motor in his dune buggy and Charlie came along and told him that he had to take it out and put this other motor in; and he kind of just said, "Okay," and he did it; but he did it like it was apparent that he really didn't want to.

Q: But he did it, anyway?

A: Yes, but that's the only time, I mean.

I saw Tex build a house because Charlie said, "Build a house." It is almost half as big as this room.

Q: Because Manson asked him to?

A: Yes.

Q: That was out at the Spahn Ranch, is that right?

A: Yeah.

Q: Who lived in the house?

A: No one; it wasn't intended for living in.

Q: What was it for, if you remember?

A: It was called the "In case place." In other words, in case anything happened to us and we all got arrested, we'd all meet at the "In case place," to get back together again.

Q: Now, you met -- you said you thought because Watson was at Dennis Wilson's and he had so much money that Watson had to be of that same class; is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you have an idea that Watson had money?

A: Did I have an idea he did?

Q: Yes?

A: Yes. Figured he did.

Q: Just because he was at Dennis'?

A: Yes.

Q: Manson was there, too, wasn't he?

A: Yes, and I was there, too.

Q: And the girls were there, too?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you all feel they had money?

A: Well, I didn't exactly look, and Charlie didn't exactly look like they did.

Q: But did Watson look like it?

A: Yeah, he looked well dressed and --

Q: Do you remember what he was wearing that made you think he was well dressed?

A: I don't remember the exact clothes, but he was well dressed, nice clothes.

I had been wearing the same pair of pants for a year and a half and he had a new pair of pants on.

Q: He looked pretty straight; is that it?

A: Yeah.

Q: Did he still continue to look the same after he got back down to the ranch, or down to Spahn Ranch?

A: No, no, that's for sure.

Q: He looked like one of the -- like everybody else in the family?

A: Looked like one of the gang pretty soon.

Q: Did you carry on any discussions with Watson, with Tex, while you were at the ranch with him?

A: Very seldom.

Q: He wasn't a very talkative person, in other words?

A: No, he wasn't, not to me.

Q: Was this about the period that he seemed to be declining, as you told us about this noon, his appearance was changing?

A: You see, at that time I didn't notice any appearance change because I was looking pretty straggly, myself. I didn't notice that he was, you know, looking bad, because I didn't look any better; but after I left and went to the Barker Ranch and began working on myself there and building myself back together again and getting my body in shape and working for a living, then Tex came up and it about blew my mind, you know. I just said, "Wow, you really look bad." They all looked bad.

Q: Well, when you saw him at the time that you thought they looked bad, did he look about the same as you did when you last saw him at the Spahn Ranch?

A: No, he looked worse than the last time I had seen him. They all looked scared and unhealthy.

Q: Did you have occasion to talk with him while you were up at Barker Ranch?

A: Very little.

Q: Did he carry on any conversation with you when you tried?

A: I didn't try.

Q: And he didn't make any effort to talk with you either?

A: Oh, we sat by the pool one day and he said, "Helter-skelter is coming down," and I said, "Yeah, right"; and he ways, "Nice day," you know. We didn't get into any talks about anything.

Q: Was this what gave you the impression that he was just a dumb country boy?

A: Yeah, but I didn't mean dumb country boy in the way, like in a derogatory sense; I meant it in a real nice way.

Q: Did you ever hear anything very bright come out of Tex Watson? Anything very original?

A: I suppose I did but I don't recall it right now.

Q: He confined himself more to the maintenance and automotive repair than anything else, didn't he?

A: No one in the family came up with anything that was on their own.

Q: Just repeating Manson?

A: Everybody repeated Charlie's thoughts.

Q: Good, bad or indifferent, they repeated Manson's thoughts?

A: Yeah.

MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further, your Honor.


Q: Watson wasn't a member of Manson's family when he was living at Dennis Wilson's place, was he?

A: No, he wasn't.

Q: It was during that period that you felt he was associating with quite a bit of class and money?

A: Yes.

Q: Watson became a member of the family laster on?

A: Quite a bit later on.

Q: You testified that Tex acted dumb, but you felt he was smart.

Was the only reason why you felt this way because he was associating with Dennis Wilson, or did you form this opinion as a result of your observing Tex over a long period of time?

A: Oh, I formed this opinion because Tex told me that he had a house on the beach that he was renting.

Q: In Malibu?

A: Yes.

I formed this opinion because of what I had said, the people he hung around with.

I formed this opinion -- in other words, I didn't think he was really smart. I just figured -- I just knew he wasn't stupid. I mean stupid like he didn't know anything, like a person can be dumb but still not be stupid.

A person can be dumb, in other words, they just aren't really intelligent, but they still might know something.

They may be a good carpenter anyway. They may be a good plumber anyway. They may be a good engineer anyway.

They may not to be too bright yet and I just didn't think he was really bright.

Q: You were aware that he was somehow involved in selling wigs?

A: No, I wasn't.

Q: Forgetting about the Dennis Wilson aspect, the fact that he was living with Dennis Wilson and associating with girls and money and good dope as opposed to bad dope, forgetting about that, was your impression of Tex Watson over the period of time that you knew him that he was acting dumb, but that he wasn't?

A: My impression was that he was acting dumb, that he really wasn't, but you see whenever I say that someone is dumb, I know that they are acting dumb because in my mind everyone is basically smart.

Q: You recognize that some people have very, very low I.Q.'s, don't you, Paul?

A: Yes.

Q: You are aware of that?

A: Yes. I am aware of that but still I say that they are acting dumb because maybe they were taught to be that way from the time that they were very small.

I still say basically everyone is highly intelligent and that some people use more of that intelligence than others and so the part -- then if they are not as smart as they really are, in other words, really and truly, then it is because they are lazy and that is why I say they are acting dumb.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.


Q: Did it occur to you that maybe he just was dumb?

A: It did occur to me but when I say that someone just is dumb, it is only their exterior that is dumb.

In other words, to my knowledge everyone inside is smart, is very, very intelligent and is very bright because we are all a piece of God and God is all wisdom and all knowledge and all intelligence and so it is how far they are from that. So when I say they were dumb, they are pretty far from their true selves.

Q: Did you ever have any impression that he was deteriorating mentally?

A: Not until I saw him in the desert.

THE COURT: At Barker Ranch?


Q BY MR. BUBRICK: What impression did you have then?

A: I had the impression that he was deteriorating mentally and physically and emotionally and in every other way that a person can deteriorate.

MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further.


Q: Why did you form the opinion that he was deteriorating mentally?

A: Because he didn't -- he still talked the same way and he seemed much more subservient to Charlie, much more, just like nothing there any more.

You know how you just see these people over a period of time and they would be less and less there.

Just look at them and they are just like they are not even there.

So it is like -- I get that opinion by just looking at them, you see. You say "Wow, he is not there," because Charlie used to tell people not to be there, tell them to abandon themselves.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No further questions.

MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further, your Honor.

THE COURT: Not commenting on your credibility, Paul, you have got a great potential. I wish you would use it. Go back to school, son. You have a great potential.

THE WITNESS: Thanks for your advice.

THE COURT: You may be excused.

MR. KAY: The people will call Greg Jakobson.

THE CLERK: Take your right hand, please. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?


called as a witness by the People, testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Thank you. Take the stand and be seated and state your name, please.

THE WITNESS: Greg Jakobson, J-a-k-o-b-s-o-n.


Q: What is your occupation?

A: I am a music publisher and producer.

Q: At one time did you work for Terry Melcher?

A: Yes.

Q: And what did you do for Mr. Melcher?

A: Music production publishing.

Q: And were you ever a record producer for Charles Manson?

A: Yes.

Q: Would it be fair to say that you were a pretty close friend of Charles Manson before he was arrested for the Tate-La Bianca murders?

A: Yes.

Q: Were you a frequent visitor to the Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: Approximately how many times would you say that you went there?

A: Oh, a number of times. It is hard to pinpoint. 20, 30 times, more or less.

Q: When did you first meet Mr. Manson?

A: In the spring of '68.

Q: And were you living at Dennis Wilson's house at that time?

A: Yes.

Q: And is that where you met Mr. Manson?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you know the defendant Tex Watson?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you meet Mr. Watson at Dennis Wilson's house?

A: Yes.

Q: And for a period of time did Mr. Watson live at Dennis Wilson's house?

A: Yes.

Q: Was Dennis Wilson there at that time or was he in Europe?

A: He was there very little. He was touring with a group for the most part.

Q: The Beach Boys?

A: The Beach Boys, right.

Q: To your knowledge did Mr. Watson meet Mr. Manson at Dennis Wilson's house?

A: Yes.

Q: What was Mr. Watson doing while he was living at Dennis Wilson's house?

A: Just hanging out.

Q: Was he working?

A: Not to my knowledge.

Q: For how long a period did you live at Dennis Wilson's house?

A: About three months.

Q: And for how long a period to your knowledge did Mr. Watson live at Dennis Wilson's house?

A: Well, are you distinguishing between frequenting the place and really living there?

Q: Yes.

A: He lived there like I guess the last month, August.

Q: The last month that you lived there?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Mr. Watson leave Dennis Wilson's house to start living with the Manson family?

A: Yes. To my knowledge, when he left Dennis' house he began living out at the ranch, at the Spahn Ranch.

Q: After Mr. Watson left Dennis Wilson's house to live with the Manson family, approximately how many times did you see him after that?

A: Only a couple of times.

Q: Did you see Mr. Watson in the late spring of 1969?

A: Yes.

Q: Was that the last time you saw him, until he got arrested?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you notice any change in Mr. Watson's personality and physical appearance from the time you knew him at Dennis Wilson's house and when you saw him in the late spring of 1969?

A: Yes, very much so.

Q: What change did you notice?

A: Well, he was another person. The Charlie Watson that I knew at Dennis Wilson's house to me no longer existed when I saw him.

Q: In what way had he changed?

A: Well, in every way, really. I mean the thing that you like in a person isn't something that you can put your finger on. I mean, it isn't the shape of his nose or what kind of a shirt he is wearing. It is something that comes from within, you know.

What everyone like about Charlie so much was that essence that came from within and it wasn't there when I saw him.

I was really taken back by it. I was really surprised.

Q: When you saw him in the late spring, 1969, for who long a period of time did you see him?

A: Not very long.

Q: How long?

A: He was busy and I was just passing through, just for a few minutes.

Q: What did you say to him, and what did he say to you?

A: Oh, we said hi and shook hands and exchanged pleasantries, you know. We hadn't seen each other for a long time. It had been a long time.

Q: Did he seem any less friendly than he had before?

A: No.

Q: Did he seem thinner than he was before?

A: Yes, physically, yes. He was thinner.

Q: From the time that Mr. Watson first met Mr. Manson, did it occur to you that Mr. Watson both accepted and agreed with Manson's philosophy?

A: Yes.

Q: Any doubt in your mind about that?

A: None.

Q: Did you ever have any discussion with Mr. Manson regarding helter-skelter?

A: Sure, yes.

Q: Oh how many occasions would you say that you discussed helter-skelter with Mr. Manson?

A: Well, it is hard to say. It would come up on a number of times.

It came up more frequently toward the end of our relationship.

Q: By the way, before we go any further, you weren't a member of the Manson family, were you?

A: No.

Q: What did helter-skelter mean to Mr. Manson and the members of his family?

A: It represented the black-white confrontation that Charlie Manson felt was imminent.

Q: Did Mr. Manson believe that there was going to be a black-white war?

A: Absolutely.

Q: When did he feel that this black-white war would take place?

A: Any minute. It was imminent. Tomorrow.

Q: And when was this, what period of time, if you can put a time period on it? 1969 sometime?

A: Well, it really reached a -- the last time I saw him, it was really preoccupying him. It really reached a peak then.

Like in '68 he spoke very little of it but it continued -- in other words, it never began and ended. It just sort of built.

Q: Piece by piece?

A: Piece by piece, yes, only with more rapidity.

Q: Did Mr. Manson ever tell you how helter-skelter was going to start?

A: Yes.

Q: How?

A: He said that some blacks would go into some white homes and really rip the people off, to use his words.

Q: What does the term "rip off" mean?

A: Well, I mean really rip off, to scatter limbs and hang them from the ceiling and so on. I remember that, because it was quite a picture.

Q: Did that repulse you?

A: Yes.

Q: Did Mr. Manson tell you who was going to prevail in this black-white war?

A: You mean the ultimate outcome?

Q: Yes.

A: The blacks would win the war but they would give it back to the whites who survived in the desert.

Q: And was Charlie and his family, were they going to survive in the desert?

A: Absolutely. That was the plan, yes.

Q: Did Mr. Manson ever discuss with you the recording group known as The Beatles?

A: Yes.

Q: Did he ever discuss their relationship to helter-skelter?

A: Yes.

Q: What did he say?

A: They were trying to give the message to those people who would listen that helter-skelter was coming. To prepare, look out.

Q: Did the Beatles have a song called "Helter-Skelter"?

A: Yes.

Q: And what did Charlie say about this song, "Helter-Skelter"?

A: It was the message. That was the message to the people.

Q: Do you think the Beatles were talking to him through their music?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, I show you Exhibit 266, a double-white Beatles' album.

Do you recognize this album?

A: Yes.

Q: Was that played out on the Spahn Ranch very often?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, are you familiar with some of the songs in the album?

A: Yes.

Q: And what songs would you say in this album were played the most out at the Spahn Ranch while you were there?

A: "Blackbird," "Helter-Skelter," "Piggies," the most.

Q: Is there also a song in there called "Happiness Is A Warm Gun"?

A: Yeah.

Q: Now, in the song, "Blackbird," I show you here Exhibit 267, appears to be the lyrics of the song in this Beatles' album?

A: Right.

Q: On the song "Blackbird," did Mr. Manson tell you what he felt the title "Blackbird" meant; what that was referring to?

A: It represented the black men.

Q: Did he ever use the term as it is in this song, "Blackbird singing in the dead of night, take these broken wings and learn to fly, all your life you were only waiting for this moment to arise"?

Did Mr. Manson use the term "arise," or "rise" in talking about helter-skelter?

A: Yeah, he used to quote that whole verse, I mean, just verbatim, just the way it was.

Q: Did he ever say in relation to helter-skelter that the black man was going to rise up?

A: Yeah; I mean, that's absolutely -- he would, like I said, he quoted right from there to prove his point that the black man was going to rise up.

Q: In other words, Mr. Manson treated the --

A: And this was a prophecy of the arising.

Q: Would you say it would be a fair statement to say that Mr. Manson treated the lyrics of the songs in this Beatle album like scripture?

A: Oh, yes, it was his scripture.

Q: Now, in the song "Piggies" did Mr. Manson tell you what was meant by the word "Piggies" or "Pig"?

A: Yeah, it represented the establishment.

Q: And what race was the establishment?

A: Well, white, definitely the white middleclass businessman.

Q: Did Mr. Manson ever tell you what was meant in the lyrics of the song, "Piggies," when it says, "In their eyes there's something lacking, what they need is a damn good whacking"?

A: Here, again, this was to be taken as the truth, and also as a prophecy of the coming truth --

Q: In other words, --

A: -- future.

Q: -- that the establishment, that the people in the establishment needed a damn good whacking?

A: Yes.

Q: Did he ever say anything about, "Everywhere there's lot of piggies living piggy lives, you can see them out for dining with their piggy wives, clutching forks and knives to eat their bacon?"

A: Yeah, he knew the words.

Q: Would he quote the words?

A: By memory, and he would quote the words whenever there was a reason to or whenever they would fall into conversation.

Q: Did Mr. Manson have a great dislike for the establishment?

A: I suppose you could say that, yeah. I mean -- yeah, it was another world to him, not his.

Q: What about the members of the Manson family, did they feel generally the same way about the establishment?

A: Well, that's hard to answer, in the sense that they rarely voiced any opinions other than Charlie's.

Q: Did Mr. Manson compose a lot of his own songs?

A: Yes.

Q: Did he ever have a song which had the words "Helter-Skelter" in their lyrics?

A: I seem to remember that he borrowed the line from --

Q: "Helter-Skelter"?

A: Right.

Q: From the Beatles?

A: Every once in a while in his songs he would take a whole verse or a line from somebody else's song, if he really liked it, or turn it around.

Q: Now, did you try and interest Mr. Terry Melcher in recording Mr. Manson?

A: Yeah, I wanted to get him interested either in a recording project or a film project, one or two, or both.

Q: And pursuant to your getting Mr. Melcher interested in Mr. Manson, did you take Mr. Melcher out to the Spahn Ranch, or did Mr. Melcher come out to the Spahn Ranch and audition Mr. Manson on a couple of occasions?

A: We went out to the ranch.

Q: You were with him on these two occasions?

A: Yes.

Q: And did Mr. Melcher ever record or film Mr. Manson?

A: No.

Q: Did Mr. Manson want to be recorded by Mr. Melcher?

A: Yes.

Q: Was Mr. Manson -- did he appear to you to be upset with the fact that Mr. Melcher didn't want to record him?

A: Yes.

Q: Mr. Manson really wanted pretty badly to be recorded, didn't he?

A: He was really pushing, yes.

Q: Now, did you have an occasion to see Mr. Manson after the Tate-La Bianca murders?

A: Yes.

Q: And was that in August of 1969, the latter part of August?

A: Yes, it would have been.

Q: Did you notice any change in Mr. Manson, in his personality or physical appearance?

A: Yes, considerably.

Q: You say a considerable change?

A: Yes.

Q: What type of change did you notice?

A: The only thing I can really liken it to, and I have said it before, is if you have ever seen an animal, a wild animal that has been put in a cage just after it has been caught -- and I have seen them; I have seen skunks and wildcats and things -- and that's what his whole demeanor was.

It is hard to describe. It is just a fear, I mean, it is almost a smell. It reeks, where they are almost bouncing into the walls back and forth and the eyes and energies is pouring out --

Q: Just like electricity is pouring out of him?

A: Yes, I mean, so much so that it upset me, I mean, it got on me, like.

MR. KAY: I have no further questions.

MR. BUBRICK: Would this be a good time, your Honor?


We will have our afternoon recess at this time, ladies and gentlemen of the jury; and once more, heed the admonition heretofore given.


THE COURT: People against Watson.

Let the record show all jurors, counsel, and the defendant are present.

Mr. Jakobson, you are still under oath. State your name, please, for the record.

THE WITNESS: Greg Jakobson.


Q: Mr. Jakobson, do you know how it was that Watson came to be living at Dennis Wilson's?

A: Do you mean the events that sort of led up to that?

Q: He was a casual visitor for a while, wasn't he, before he started to live there?

A: Yes. Dennis was hitch-hiking down Sunset and Tex picked him up one day.

Q: And brought Dennis out to his home?

A: Brought Dennis home.

Q: And were you there at that time?

A: No. I don't remember that. I was told later. Dennis told me that Tex had picked him up and he was hitch-hiking down Sunset.

Q: And thereafter did Watson come by from time to time?

A: Yes. He became, you know, a friend.

Q: A friend of Dennis'?

A: Yes, and everybody there.

Q: Who else was there at the time?

A: There were a number of people in and out of the house. I was living there. A couple of girls were living there. Dennis was living there on and off.

Q: Was Manson there?

A: He wasn't living there; he would come by, swim, visit.

Q: Come by with his girls?

A: Yeah, some, you know, not all of them; different people, different times.

Q: Was Dean Moorehouse there at the time?

A: Yeah, he was there.

Q: Was he living there --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- in the house behind the main house?

A: Right.

Q: Now, you told us that -- you characterized Watson as being a sort of a happy-go-lucky person when you first met him; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Could you further categorize -- characterize him for us?

A: Well, to use the words I have also used, he was like a friendly puppy dog, that's as close as I can come. That's why he was so well liked.

Q: Was he --

A: In the sense that there is nothing a dog wouldn't do for you, you know; you throw the stick, he'll go get it. He tried to please.

Q: Was he a sort of a hanger-on or follower, in your opinion?

A: Well, he sort of hung out there, but that's what the place was for, everybody just hung out -- I don't know what you mean by hanger-on or follower. He wasn't a leader, if that's what you mean.

Q: That's what I'm asking you; he didn't appear to be a leader?

A: No, no.

Q: And later on when he moved in, he moved in with Dean Moorehouse in one of the back houses, didn't he?

A: He spent a lot of time with Dean; as to whether he ever moved in there, I don't know.

They were very close.

Q: And this was what, in the summer of '68?

A: Late summer of '68.

Q: How many times would you say you saw Mr. Watson about the Dennis Wilson home?

A: Oh, that would be hard to say, I mean. I saw him around all the time, you know. In one day I could have seen him 10 times, so it is hard to tell.

Q: I can appreciate that, but you said you lived there about three months?

A: Yeah, I was there a lot. I mean, I just sort of -- I lived there.

Q: And is it your impression that Watson was there pretty much of that three-month period, too?

A: Yeah, he would come and go, but when he was there he was there; and then he might disappear for a few days and come back four more days.

Q: Do you know what he was doing at the time?

A: No, I really don't.

Q: Did you --

A: I know he would go down to the beach cities and visit. He had some friends down in La Jolla.

Q: Was he working at any trade, if you know, any business?

A: I don't really know. There was some mention of a wig business, but it went in one ear and out the other.

Q: Did he have a car of some type?

A: Yeah, he had a funky old truck that he used to drive around.

Q: 1935 Dodge, is that it?

A: Yeah.

Q: An old antique of some sort?

A: Yeah, it really was.

Q: Now, you said you saw him again about a year later when he was at the Spahn Ranch; is that correct?

A: Yeah, I don't think it would have been a year, but it was later.

Q: Spring of '69, whatever that might be.

A: Right.

Q: How would you describe him at that time?

A: As opposed to what he had been?

Q: Yes, as opposed to the way he had been.

A: Well, I describe him as everything he was before he no longer was. He wasn't any more, if that makes any sense to you, I mean, he just wasn't -- it was just a void, he was blank.

Q: Like a shell; is that how you described it once before?

A: Yes, that is right.

Q: A zombie? Did you describe it that way once before?

A: I don't know if I ever said zombie, yes, but shell, empty.

Q: No longer any spark; is that correct?

A: Yes. That spark, that essence that makes you an individual, a human, wasn't there.

Q: What was he doing at the Spahn Ranch when you saw him again in the spring of 1969?

A: He was working on a truck, on the engine.

Q: Was Manson about, if you know?

A: Yes.

Q: Was this one of the times you went down on some sort of a business in connection with possible recordings?

A: Yes, I believe so. I had come out to pick up Manson.

Q: Was there any audition of any sort that Manson performed at the time that you went there?

A: You see there were two times: One time earlier that I actually came out to pick up Charlie to go record, and then it was later that, if you call it an audition, on the part of Terry's being there.

It was more to see if we all got on together. I mean if you are going to make music together, you have got to sort of find out a lot of things, not just musically.

Q: Were the members of Manson's family gathered at the same spot you were at?

A: At the time Terry was there?

Q: Yes.

A: Yes. Everyone was there that was around.

Q: And did he seem to be the center of attraction at the time?

A: Manson?

Q: Yes.

A: Oh, very much so.

Q: Was he the ruler of that family so far as you know?

A: He sure was.

Q: When you were out there at the time that Mr. Melcher was there, did you get the feeling that the performance on the part of the family members was a genuine one?

A: Well, as genuine as any performance can be. I mean it is always a performance, sort of a theatrical venture, but it was a performance.

Q: Maybe I misled you. I am talking about the conduct of the family members.

A: Everybody was on their best behavior, if that is what you mean, for the sake of Terry, you know, sure.

Q: Did it appear to be a staged affair?

A: To some extent but it wasn't unusual. What happened I have seen happen before but only a little more so this time.

Q: Now, you also, as I understand it, talked with Mr. Manson on numerous occasions; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Philosophical discussions?

A: Yes.

Q: How many times would you say you had talked with him?

A: Any number of times, a lot. There again it is really hard to put a number on it.

Q: Would you say upwards of 100, perhaps?

A: I suppose, yes.

Q: This extended over some period of time?

A: It did, right.

Q: Did he talk to you about Jesus Christ?

A: Yes. He got into Jesus a little bit.

Q: What did he say about that, if you remember?

A: It was always in regards to an overriding philosophy that all this is that and I am him and he is me and so on.

Q: Did he tell you that he thought he was Christ, or that he was Christ?

A: Yes, but always in regards to the overriding philosophy that he is me and I am him and I am you and you are me.

Q: Sort of unity of things.

A: Yes. You know, it jumps into the subjective.

Q: He was one who believed in separate identities and separate things, didn't he, as opposed to the concept of everything being one?

A: Well, you see now that is where we always differed philosophically.

He drew a line between the subjective and the obective and I held that they were hooked up, that they were together, and all his rationale came from the fact that he could separate them at will and jump over at will, cross-cross them.

Q: Did he say anything about the concept of good and bad?

A: Sure, yes.

Q: What did he say about that?

A: There wasn't any.

Q: That everything was good or bad?

A: That good and bad was a concept and he didn't buy it.

Q: Did he have any other way or describing events or things?

A: I don't know what you mean.

Q: Instead of being bad, was everything just all right?

A: Oh, everything was perfect if he was pinned down to that.

Q: Anything you did was perfect; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: That was part of his philosophy?

A: Yes.

Q: That you could do no wrong?

A: That you could do no wrong. There was no way to make a mistake.

Q: As long as you did what you did, it was perfect?

A: Right.

Q: How about the subject of death, did he discuss that with you?

A: Yes, we got into that.

Q: What did he say about that?

A: Well, he said that he died a long time ago and that there was no death, death was a change.

None of these things were really new to me; I mean, he was an eclectic, he picked up different things from different philosophies and different religions. That's all eastern philosophy.

Q: Did he make an effort to tie it up together --

A: Yes.

Q: -- in some sort of continuous philosophy?

A: Yeah, he tied it all up into his own, taking a little bit from here, a little bit from there, putting it into his own.

Q: Did he talk about the Devil?

A: Yes, he was the Devil.

Q: He was also a God, was he not?

A: I don't ever really remember him saying that he was a God. He used the word "Devil" and he used the word "Christ."

Q: Well, didn't he believe that they exist within the same persons at all times?

A: Oh, absolutely.

Q: Well, in that sense he thought he was a God, the Devil, Christ, everything rolled into one and everybody was that?

A: Yes.

Q: And didn't that go along with this theory of good and bad?

A: Yes.

Q: In the sense that because Christ could do no wrong, no other person could do any wrong?

A: Well, I suppose you could look at it that way.

Q: Well, isn't that how he looked at it?

A: It is pretty hard to say, I mean. It is so nebulous, I'd have to be inside of his head to see how he saw, you know; that's why we argued. That was our attraction, that we used to debate.

Q: Well, we are not asking you to see as he saw, because obviously you can't do that; but, as best you can, can you tell us the things that he said?

A: I couldn't begin to, because so much went down; but I am trying to put it -- capsulize it for you, make -- in essence, his stand was that he really found -- he really lived in the subjective and he couldn't bring it back home.

I mean, there is two fields, the relative field, the subjective and the objective, the changing and the never changing.

He jumped into the never changing, or the subjective, whenever he wanted to. If he needed to rationalize something in the objective, in the relative field, he would just jump in to the subjective field; It is okay if you do that because it is okay. It is okay if you eat with your hands; what does it matter?

That would be jumping into the subjective. In other words, there is no rules in the subjective, you make up your own rules.

Q: Is that the way he felt about killing?

A: Yes.

Q: It was all right to kill?

A: Yeah, he did -- yeah, he pulled it from there. It gave, don't you see, it gave him a license to make up his own rules.

Q: Did you ever hear him discussing this with other members of the family?

A: Exactly what?

Q: Well, did you ever attend any session where he would lecture to the other members of the family who were gathered about him?

A: Oh, sure.

Q: And did he repeat this same kind of philosophy to them?

A: Yes, he was very consistent and he lectured all the time, to use the word "lecture."

Q: At least, he talked, is that correct?

A: Whenever there -- well, yeah, Charlie was always the center of attraction.

Q: Did you ever hear anybody else express any original ideas in the presence of Mr. Manson, as far as philosophy was concerned?

A: You know, I really don't think I did. I mean, it was very hard to, he was very overpowering.

THE COURT: How about Moorehouse, didn't he have the same ideas as Charlie Manson?

THE WITNESS: Yes, he was a follower; Charlie used to say of him that he was "My student but he hadn't learned yet."

THE COURT: Who taught whom, Moorehouse taught Manson or Manson taught Moorehouse?

THE WITNESS: Manson taught Moorehouse.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Then what Moorehouse preached was what he had heard from Manson; is that correct?

A: Yes. Yes, absolutely.

MR. BUBRICK: May I have a moment, your Honor?

THE WITNESS: Maybe I should qualify one thing on that last question.


THE WITNESS: Moorehouse was an ordained minister. He had a great working knowledge of the bible; I mean, he could quote just chapters and pages, so he would, using the framework of Charlie's philosophy, pull out of the bible things -- but it was, in other words -- Charlie didn't have a working knowledge of the bible like Dean did, so Dean could interpret and lend the bible to support Charlie's philosophy, which he did at all times, because Dean Moorehouse was really a student of the bible.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: He was a student of the bible --

A: He was an ordained minister.

Q: He had been with Orthodox religion --

A: Yes, I think he had his own church.

Q: -- but then he adopted the Manson philosophy as a premise from which to preach?

A: Yes, he did.

Q: And he would look into the bible to support the premise he adopted from Manson?

A: Yes.

Q: So he made the bible work for the Manson philosophy --

A: Fit, absolutely.

Q: Did you ever hear Dean Moorehouse express anything to the group when Manson was present?

A: No, when Manson was present Dean didn't say much.

Q: He was just another listener; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you ever visit the family when they moved to Barker Ranch, Mr. Jakobson?

A: Once.

Q: And when was that, do you remember?

A: Yes, I do. That was like November 20th; I know it was right before Thanksgiving, like November 22 -- Thanksgiving is always on the 25th, I believe -- in '68.

Q: '68?

A: Right.

Q: Was Watson there then?

A: No.

Q: You didn't see him again after the summer or spring of '69, I think you told us?

A: Right; no, I didn't. That was the last time I was out to the ranch.

Q: I think you also told us in August of '69 you saw Manson; he looked like a wild animal in a cage, was your characterization of him?

A: Yes.

Q: When you saw Manson on that occasion did you see Watson anywhere in the vicinity of the ranch?

A: No, I wasn't out at the ranch; this happened at my house, you know.

Q: He came to visit you?

A: Yes.

Q: Would you say that Manson completely dominated the scene whenever he was present?

A: Absolutely.

Q: And did he dominate the family anytime he was with the family, as far as you know?

A: Absolutely.

Q: Did you ever hear Mr. Watson make any suggestions to Manson?

A: No.

Q: Or to anybody else on the ranch, the day you saw him?

A: Watson?

Q: Yes; I am talking about --

A: No.

Q: That conversation was just between the two of you, and that was it; is that so?

A: You mean when Tex and I --

Q: Yes.

A: Yes.

Q: There was nobody else who was present or participated?

A: There was some people present but they didn't really participate.

MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further, your Honor.

MR. KAY: No further questions. May the witness be excused?

MR. BUBRICK: Just one more, please.

Q: Mr. Jakobson, did you ever hear Charlie -- the lyrics to a song composed by Charlie entitled "Submission Is A Gift. You can give it to your brother."?

A: Yes.

Q: Was that something that Manson wrote?

A: Yes, it was.

Q: And was it recorded by some group that you worked with?

A: Yes.

Q: With whom?

A: The Beach Boys.

Q: The Beach Boys?

A: Yes.

Q: And that is a group that Dennis Wilson was with; is that correct?

A: Right. It is.

MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further.


Q: What was the name of the song that the Beach Boys recorded?

A: "Never Learn Not To Love Him."

Q: That was the song the Mr. Manson wrote?

A: Yes.

THE COURT: "Never Learn Not To Love"?

THE WITNESS: "Love Him."


Q: Is that the same as this title, "Submission Is A Gift. You can give it to your mother"?

A: Same song.

Q: But just a different title or something?

A: Yes. In other words, both of those, all the words that you have said exist in the lyric content.

I think they pulled out for the album, the title in quotes "You Must Never Learn Not To Love Him."

Q: Mr. Keith is disturbed about one thing. You know this song title that was mentioned to you a moment ago, "Happiness Is A Warm Gun"?

A: From the Beatles' album.

Q: Is there more than one connotation to that title that you know of?

A: You know, I never did much interpretation of the Beatles. I just enjoyed their music. I don't know what they meant by that and I have never heard that broken down. I mean, Charlie never interpreted that for me, if he had any interpretation.

THE COURT: Could you understand the words when they sang?

THE WITNESS: Yes, I can.

THE COURT: You are an exception.

THE WITNESS: I have listened a lot. It is my business.

MR. BUBRICK: Nothing further.

MR. KAY: No further questions.

THE COURT: Thank you. You may be excused.

MR. BUGLIOSI: We have no further witnesses.

Before we rest, however, we will move to have the exhibits received into evidence. I imagine there will be argument by defense, probably outside the presence of the jury.

THE COURT: All right. I think that we could safely excuse the jury until Monday; is that correct, Gentleman?

MR. BUBRICK: May we approach the bench, your Honor, please?


(There was a discussion at the bench outside the presence of the jury not reported:)

(The following proceedings were had in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you win. We will recess at this time until Tuesday the 31st of August and you need not be here until 11:00 o'clock. We have many legal matters to discuss, so you need not be here until Tuesday at 11:00 o'clock.

Is that clear?

It is this coming Tuesday. It is August 31st at 11:00 o'clock.

In view of the long recess, I wish to admonish you again, do not form or express any opinion in this case. Do not discuss it among yourselves or with anybody else.

Please keep an open mind and do everything possible to refrain from reading anything connected with this case.

Tuesday at 11:00 o'clock. Thank you.

(At 3:45 p.m., an adjournment was taken until Tuesday, August 31, 1971 at 9:30 a.m.)