LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA, THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 2, 1971
9:40 A.M.
--o0o--
THE COURT: People against Watson.
Let the record show all jurors are present, counsel and defendant are present.
You may proceed, Mr. Bubrick.
THE CLERK: Now, you have been previously sworn.
Will you restate your name for the record?
THE WITNESS: Charles Watson.
CHARLES WATSON,
resumed the stand and testified further as follows
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY MR. BUBRICK:
Q: Charles, before we pick up where we left of yesterday, I'd like to ask you one or two questions leading up to the incidents you have described heretofore.
Do you recall when you left the Spahn Ranch on the night of the 9th of August in the car with the other three occupants, you told us about a conversation you had with Mr. Manson before you got in the car and left.
Do you recall that?
A: Yes; before I got in the car he said that the girls know what to do, know all the witchy things to do.
Q: Now, after your conversation with Mr. Manson and before the car left, was there any conversation between Manson and the girls?
A: He said he had already told the girls what to do and they knew what to do.
Q: Did you hear any discussion between Manson and the girls about Witchy things?
A: The only conversation I remember was what he said to me when I told him I couldn't remember all the stuff. He said that the girls knew everything to do, the witchy things and everything.
Q: Now, when you left in the car at that time, Charles, are you aware of any rope in the car?
A: No, I didn't see any rope or anything it the car.
Q: Did you see anybody carrying any rope at any time during that experience on the night of the 9th?
A: No. I didn't see a rope.
Q: I think you told us yesterday also -- and I want to make sure that this has been covered. -- about stopping at the house that has been identified as Mr. Weber's house, where you used the hose. Do you recall that incident?
A: Yes.
Q: And I think you told us that when you left that spot, you drove the car; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: In between the time that you left the Webers house and you next stopped the car, was there anything done with any clothing, if you remember?
A: One of the girls in the back seat said we had to throw away the clothes and I pulled over, and then I believe it was Linda, she threw everything out of the car, threw everything out of the car.
Q: Incidentally, had Linda taken along a change of clothing, if you know?
A: I didn't never see any clothes until they handed me the ones I changed into.
Q: In the Tate house, were you aware of anything being written on the walls while you were there?
A: No, I wasn't.
Q: Did you see anybody write anything on the walls?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you see anybody write anything on the way out of the house?
A: No, I did not.
Q: I think you have told us yesterday about getting back to the ranch and then I think you told us you slept most of the day, the following day; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: Did something happen the evening of the 9th?
A: Yes, uh-huh.
Q: What happened on that night?
A: Charlie came walking up to me and gave me some acid and a knife.
Q: Can you fix the time of the day or evening that this occurred?
A: I just know it was dark, that is all.
Q: Had you eaten dinner that night?
A: I can't recall about dinner that night. I'm not for sure about that.
Q: Charlie gave you some acid and a knife and then what?
A: Told me to get in the car.
Q: Who was in the car at that time?
A: In the front seat, in the middle Linda, and in the back was Steve Grogan and Sadie and Leslie and Katie,
Q: Did you notice anything in the car other than the knife which you had?
A: I believe Charlie had a gun.
Q: Did you see that?
A: I saw it sometime during the night, but I am not for sure when.
Q: How about the other girls and Steve, did they have any weapons of any sort that you are aware of?
A: I was only aware of my knife, that is all.
Q: And when you left the Spahn Ranch on the evening of the 9th, who drove?
A: Charlie was driving.
Q: I think you told us yesterday there were seven people in the car; is that correct?
A: Yes. It would be seven people.
Q: And was this the same car that had been used the night before?
A: Yes.
Q: And it is still the car without the back seat; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember where Charlie drove?
A: I believe the first place we stopped at a filling station or something like that.
Q: To get some gasoline or something?
A: I don't know for sure.
Q: All right.
Where did you go after that?
A: He started driving. I don't know if Charlie was still driving or not, but I know we drove for a long time.
Q: Was this an area that was familiar to you?
A: No, I wasn't familiar with any of the area. I just wasn't watching, really, the driving part of it.
Q: Did the car eventually come to a stop?
A: Yes.
Q: And did anything occur when the car stopped?
A: The car stopped two or three times before we stopped the last time --
Q: All right.
A: -- when I got out.
Q: Tell us what happened when the car stopped the last time, as you put it.
A: Well, Charlie got out of the car and then he came back to the car and told me and two of the girls -- it was Leslie and Katie -- to get out; and they got out and he was talking to them on the side, the driver's side, and I walked around behind the car and I can't remember hardly at all the exact words he said to me, but something to the effect to go in and do like last night, or to make sure everybody is dead gruesomely, or something to that effect. I can't remember the exact words; it's kind of fuzzy there -- and I had a knife.
Q: Did you see anything in the hands of the girls at this time?
A: I didn't notice.
Q: Incidentally, how long was Manson out of the car when he went into this house and, let's refer to it as the La Bianca house?
A: I have no idea.
Q: Did you all, the six of you, remain seated in the car while Manson went out?
A: Yes -- no, he was the only one that got out.
Q: The six of you, then, remained behind; is that correct?
A: Yes, that's correct.
Q: Did anybody get out of the car while he was out of the car?
A: No, I don't believe so.
Q: Could you tell where he was going?
A: I didn't watch where he was going.
Q: Now, had you ever been to the home of a man by the name of Harold True?
A: No, 1 have not.
Q: Never been in that house?
A: No.
Q: So I take it this area was not, then, familiar to you at all.
A: No, I didn't know where I was.
Q: Did you know who lived in the La Bianca house?
A: No, I never had been in the neighborhood,
Q: Were there any lights on about the house, if you remember?
A: I didn't notice.
Q: Did you see Mr. Manson enter the house, if he did?
A: No, I wasn't watching or anything.
Q: When you and Katie and Leslie left, what did you do?
A: When we left --
Q: The car.
A: the car? We walked up to the house.
Q: Incidentally, before you left the car did Manson say anything to you about getting back to the ranch?
A: No, he didn't say anything to me about it.
Q: All right. Then you, Katie and Leslie started up into the house; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: Do you remember how you got up to the house; was there a driveway or steps or what?
A: We just walked straight to the house; I don't recall a driveway.
Q: Do you remember how you got in?
A: Walked in the front door.
Q: Was it open or closed?
A: I can't recall that.
Q: And once you got in, what happened?
A: Katie went one way and Leslie went the other way, and I went kind of the way that Katie went; and started stabbing on -- Katie and I -- on the body on the couch.
Q: Can you describe the body on the couch; could you see its face?
A: No, it had a cover over it, over the face.
Q: What sort of a cover?
A: I don't know; it was.the head was just wrapped up with something, you know.
Q: With material of some sort?
A: Yes.
Q: Could you see anything underneath that material?
A: No, I couldn't.
Q: Could you see anything around the neck of that person?
A: No.
Q: Could you tell whether it was a man or a woman?
A: No, you really couldn't.
Q: Then you and Katie stabbed on this person?
A: Yes, that correct.
Q: Then what happened after that?
A: Leslie hollered -- she was screaming, you know, and I ran into the room where she was screaming and she was stabbing another person.
Q: What was the position of this person when you first saw her?
A: She was kind of standing in a fell to the floor.
Q: Was this second person a female?
A: I believe so.
Q: Could you see her features or her face?
A: No, you couldn't.
Q: Was her face also covered?
A: Yes.
Q: By some material?
A: Yes.
Q: Was this person's hands bound in any way?
A: No, I don't believe so.
Q: Did you see anything in her hand?
A: There was a lamp all around her. I remember seeing holding a lamp or something. The lamp was flying over.
Q: She was holding a lamp?
A: Yes, uh-huh.
Q: In what manner?
A: She had it in her arms or something like that (indicating).
Q: And what if anything was Katie doing at that time?
A: Katie came running in, into the room, and called me back into the other room and I went in there and we continued to stab on the person in there.
Q: Was it the female or the person on the couch?
A: The person on the couch.
Q: Had you stabbed the person, the female?
A: Yes.
Q: And had the other two also so far as you know?
A: What?
Q: Stabbed on that person.
A: Now repeat that again, please.
Q: Did Katie and Leslie stab the other person also, if you know?
A: Yes. When I went into the bedroom that is what Leslie was doing.
Q: How long would you say you were in this house, if you know?
A: There wasn't much time. You know time didn't really make any sense to me, just flashing by, your know.
Q: Do you know at this time whether anything was being written on the walls?
A: It seems like I can recall seeing Leslie writing something on the walls but I don't know what.
Q: Did you write anything on the walls?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you write anything on the refrigerator?
A: No, I didn't write anything.
Q: Did you know the people in this house?
A: No.
Q: So far as you know had you ever seen them before?
A: No.
Q: What did you do after you left the house?
A: Started walking.
Q: I take it it was still dark, was it?
A: Yes, it was dark..
Q: Was there anything done about a change of clothes on this occasion?
A: Yes.
Q: What was done about that?
A: Before leaving the house Katie and Leslie were changing clothes, and I didn't have any to change into, so they got me some, somewhere, I don't know where they came from.
Q: What did you change into?
A: I remember there was some tennis shoes and a pair of pants and a shirt.
Q: What did you do with the clothing you took off?
A: The girls were carrying it when we were walking down the road and I remember laying, under a tree and then I never did see the clothes again.
Q: You say you laid down under a tree. What did the girls do, if you know?
A: I guess they were laying down too.
Q: It was still dark outside, was it?
A: Yes. It was dark.
Q: What is your next recollection after lying down under the tree?
A: It became daylight.
Q: You were still in the same position under the same tree?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you have any idea where this area, that is the tree under which you had spent the night, was with respect to the house that you had left?
A: Well, I know we walked a long ways. We were lost. We didn't know where we were. I didn't know where I was anyway.
Q: And did you ask anybody during the evening hours where you were, how you would get back to the Spahn Ranch?
A: We got down to a main street and a guy picked us up.
Q: Is this still at nighttime, Charles, or is this the following morning?
A: No, it is morning now.
Q: What I asked you a moment ago was whether you had made any effort to find out where you were before you spent the night under some tree?
A: No. We just -- we were just walking, you know.
Q: And you spent the night resting, lying under a tree?
A: Yes.
Q: And then when daylight came, then you started to walk somewhere; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And is that when you hitched a ride?
A: That is when the car came by -- finally got to where there was cars, you know.
Q: Did you have any idea where that area is?
A: I know he took us down to a freeway, the car did.
Q: And did you get out at the freeway?
A: Yes. We got out at the freeway.
Q: Then what did you do there? Hitch-hike on to the ranch?
A: Yes. Another guy picked us up.
Q: The three of you got back to the ranch about the same time?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you all come back in the same vehicle?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you have any idea of what time of day it was when you got back to the ranch?
A: Well, it had been daylight for quite a while. I believe it was still morning, in the morning, maybe late morning.
Q: Do you remember what you did for the balance of that morning?
A: I went to sleep.
Q: Before doing that did you talk to Manson, do you remember?
A: No, I never did see him that day.
Q: You went to sleep that day then and what else, what occurred if you can remember?
A: That is all I remember occurring.
Q: Do you remember seeing or talking to Barbara Hoyt that day?
A: No, I don't really even know if she was at the ranch at that time or not.
Q: Do you remember telling anybody not to say anything about the fact that you had been out or that you had been at a love in or something like that?
A: No, I don't.
Q: Do you remember how long you stayed at the ranch?
A: Before going somewhere again?
Q: Yes, before leaving.
A: No, I don't recall exactly. I know I did -- was told by Manson to go up to Olancha.
Q: Do you remember when that occurred?
A: Not exactly. I know it was probably two or three days, or maybe a day later -- well, two days, three days, maybe, I don't know.
Q: Were you arrested at the ranch on August the 16th?
A: No, I was not.
Q: You weren't at the ranch on that day; is that correct?
A: No.
Q: Had you already left for Olancha?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, between the time that you were at the LaBianca house and the time that you left for Olancha, did you ever discuss the events of that evening with Mr. Manson?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you ever discuss it with anybody else at the ranch?
A: No.
Q: Did anybody ask you what had happened?
A: No.
Q: Did Manson ask you what had happened?
A: No.
Q: Was there any difference between the way you lived prior to going to the Tate-LaBianca houses and what you continued to do at the ranch until you left for Olancha?
A: Could you repeat that?
Q: Well, were you treated the same after you got back from the Tate-LaBianca incidents as you always were up until the time you left for Olancha?
A: Yeah, I was still pretty high.
Q: What else did you do about the ranch?
A: I didn't do anything.
Q: Did you work on any dune buggies?
A: When I got back?
Q: Yes.
A: No, I didn't.
Q: Before going to Olancha?
A: Before going to Olancha? You an after the murders?
Q: Yes.
A: Not that I can recall, no.
Q: How did you get up to Olancha, if you remember?
A: In a truck, a big truck.
Q: Who drove, if you remember?
A: The guy that owned the ranch at Olancha.
Q: Had he been at the Spahn Ranch?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you remember his name?
A: Dave was his name.
Q: Do you remember his last name?
A: I remember the windmill at this ranch had "Hunter" on it.
Now, I don't know if that's his last name; I thought it was "Hunter."
THE COURT: What was it, "Hunter"?
THE WITNESS: Hunter.
Q BY MR. BUBRICK: How many people went up to Olancha, if you remember?
A: There was three of us in the front of the truck.
Q: Who were they, besides yourself?
A: Juan and Dave, the guy that was driving the truck.
Q: Did you take anything up to Olancha with you, if you remember?
A: The whole back of the truck was loaded down.
Q: With what?
A: There was a dune buggy on there and a lot of tools and stuff, you know.
Q: Did Manson tell you why he wanted you to go to Olancha?
A: I don't know; he said something about putting the young people there or something, but I don't know. I never did question him, you know. He said to go to Olancha so I went to Olancha.
Q: Did you continue to take any drugs during this period of time before leaving for Olancha?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Do you remember getting to Olancha with --
A: Yes.
Q: -- T.J. and Mr. Hunter, Bill?
A: No, it was Juan.
Q: Juan?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you got there, were there any other people there?
A: No.
Q: Did anybody else come up and join you at Olancha?
A: Yes.
Q: How much later?
A: I was there by myself and then Snake showed up, a girl named Snake, and some young boy.
Q: Anybody else that you remember?
A: That's all that was there right then.
Q: Snake is Diana Lake; is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Or Diana Bluestein, however you knew her?
A: Yes.
Q: How long were the three of you at Olancha?
A: We were there a few days and then some more people showed up; and then -- I can't really recall, I believe around 10 days -- 10 days or so, two weeks, maybe.
Q: Were there any drugs being used at Olancha, if you remember?
A: I remember we picked some little flowers off of some desert plant, you know. It wasn't a drug, you know; I don't know just what it was, it wasn't a drug or anything.
Q: Had you brought any drugs with you to Olancha?
A: No, I had not.
Q: Did you have any marijuana or hashish?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did you buy any papers in the Olancha area?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did anybody buy any paper, that you know of?
A: The little guy went over to the store and when he came back, he had a paper and some cigarettes and stuff.
Q: Do you remember an incident in Olancha involving a police officer by the name of Mr. Cox?
A: Yes.
Q: Did this incident about buying the paper occur before or after the incident with Mr. Cox?
A: I really don't recall that.
Q: Do you remember about what day of the month it was?
A: No.
Q: Did you read the paper?
A: I really don't recall that, but I could have had it in my hands. I really can't say that.
Q: Do you remember the headline on the paper?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember discussing the contents of the paper with Diane Lake?
A: No.
Q: Do you remember any discussion between yourself and Diane Lake about killing Sharon Tate?
A: No, I can't remember anything like that.
Q: Did you ever tell her you killed Sharon Tate and that it was fun?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Do you remember Mr. Cox asking you what you were doing there, or something of that nature?
A: Yes, he asked us what we were doing there and I believe I told him that the owner of the ranch had left us there and we were going to try to fix up the place, something to that effect.
Q: Do you remember how many days after the incident with the newspaper it was that you saw Mr. Cox core to the ranch?
A: Mr. Cox, he came to the ranch several times, about five or six times, I believe.
Q: Before the date when he asked you for identification?
A: No, that day was his first day.
Q: That was the day that Diane was wading in the creek and you were on the cot; is that correct?
A: I don't know what Diane was doing then.
Q: Do you remember whether he asked you for identification on more than one occasion?
A: No. After the first occasion, he came over several times and saw me several times, but he never did ask for any identification.
Q: All right. On the first occasion that he did ask you for identification, do you remember what name you gave him?
A: Charles Montgomery.
Q: Any particular reason for that?
A: Well, we always went by all kinds of names out there but the main reason was a long time before that I had thrown away all of my identification, because the truck that I had given away came back to the ranch and --
Q: That is the '35 Dodge?
A: Yes. And I was told by a couple of people -- the first person that brought it back, that it was still in my name and that he had some warrants out, some kind of warrants out for the truck or something. I remember Dennis Wilson also came to the ranch and he had the truck then and said that he got stopped or something, and had used my name, you know, and so I threw my identification away.
Q: What did you throw away, if you remember?
A: My driver's license and Selective service card.
Q: Was your driver's license a California license?
A: Yes
Q: Was it in the name of Charles Watson?
A: Yes.
Q: And then you used the name of Montgomery on this occasion; is that correct?
A: Yes. That is my mother's maiden name and any uncles' name.
Q: Did you give Mr. Cox any other information about yourself that you can recall?
A: I believe I told him I was from Texas and that is all I told him.
Q: You were not arrested on that occasion; is that correct?
A: No, sir.
Q: How were you living out there on the ranch in Olancha?
A: Well, I know he gave Diane $5 one time and we bought some groceries with it.
Q: Who gave her $5?
A: Mr. Cox.
Q: Did you have any money of your own?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Did any of the girls have any money that you are aware of?
A: Just the $5, that is about all I seen. I might have had some change when I got there, but I don't know. I really couldn't recall that.
Q: Did you take any foodstuffs up with you when you went to Olancha?
A: No, no food.
Q: Had you given any thought as to how you were going o eat?
A: I remember Charlie -- he said everybody was going to move up there.
Q: How long did you stay at Olancha? You think about 10 days?
A: Yes.
Q: And where did you go from there?
A: I went to Goler Wash.
Q: How far is that in terms of miles?
A: I really don't know. I would say over 100, though.
Q: Olancha is up toward Lone Pine and Independence way; is that correct?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: And which direction from that is Goler Wash? East toward the desert?
A: Well, it is in Death Valley. Now, I don't know which direction it is.
Q: Before leaving Olancha, did you talk to your mother? Do you recall if you ever talked to her by phone?
A: Yes, I did.
I just -- I called her.
Q: Do you remember from where?
A: Olancha.
Q: Do you remember how that happened to come about?
A: Just popped -- I don't know why -- it just popped in my head and I called.
Q: What popped in your head?
A: Calling.
Q: When you called her, what did you say?
A: I remember telling her that the end of the world was coming and that we were going to be the only ones left on earth in the bottomless pit and that I had found Jesus and that is about all I can recall.
Q: Did you ask her how she felt?
A: No. I didn't ask her anything.
Q: Did you inquire at all about the rest of the family?
A: No.
Q: How long had it been since you had last talked with your mother?
A: I believe I talked to her the first of the year.
Q: Where did you go after you left Olancha?
A: To Goler Wash.
Q: How long did you stay there?
A: A couple of days I believe.
Q: Do you remember who left on the trip from Olancha to Goler Wash?
A: Bruce Davis and Brenda and
Q: Where was Mr. Manson, if you know?
A: I don't know.
Q: What happened to Diana Lake and the rest of the people, if you know?
A: I know Brenda and Bruce and some more people came up.
Q: To Goler Wash?
A: No, to Olancha, and said that Charlie said to go to Goler Wash with all the stuff. That is what we did.
Q: And the three of you then left and went to Goler Wash by truck?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you carry on the truck, if you remember?
A: The same stuff that we carried on it the last time.
Q: What was in Goler Wash when you got there?
A: Well, up the wash was an older type man named Paul and Paul Watkins and Brooks.
Q: You knew Brooks and Paul Watkins from former associations on the ranch, didn't you?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Had there been some period of time during which you did not see them?
A: Yes. I hadn't seen Brooks that year i know.
Q: How about Paul?
A: And Paul, he was at the ranch; I believe he may have left a month and a half or two, maybe, after I got back the second time; maybe May or June, I believe.
Q: Did you know that Brooks, Paul and Crockett would be in Golar Wash?
A: Yes.
Q: Is there some sort of a community in Golar Wash?
A: No.
Q: Is it just a desert area?
A: Yes.
Q: Had you ever been there before?
A: Yes, one time.
Q: I take it, Manson was not there; is that correct?
A: No.
Q: Did you take any drugs with you to Golar Wash?
A: No.
Q: Incidentally, had you had any drugs with you at all while you were at Olancha?
A: No.
Q: How long did you stay in Golar Wash?
A: About two days.
Q: What happened after that?
A: We left all the stuff there and -- let's see -- and went back to Olancha to get another load.
Q: Who went back to Olancha this time?
A: Bruce and Brenda and I.
Q: The same three that had gone to Golar Wash, now are going back to Olancha; is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: And what did you do -- who did you find when you got back to Olancha?
A: I know we did see Mr. Cox again there.
Q: Did you get the rest of your equipment from Olancha?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you load it on the truck?
A: Yes.
Q: Then what did you do?
A: I remember it was in the morning and we drove back to Spahn Ranch; and as soon as we got there, Charlie told us to turn around and go back, take all the stuff that was on the truck back to Golar Wash.
Q: You drove from Golar Wash to Olancha --
A: Uh-huh.
Q: -- and loaded the truck --
A: Uh-huh,
Q: Then drove down to Spahn Ranch?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: How far is that?
A: It was a long ways, it seemed like, you know.
Q: Then how long did you stay in Spahn Ranch on that occasion?
A: As soon as we got there Charlie said to turn around and take all the stuff to Golar Wash.
Q: Then did you do that?
A: That's what we did,
Q: Turned around and started driving to Golar Wash; is that correct?
A: That's right.
Q: The same three?
A: No, this time there was a guy named Danny in the truck and I was in the truck; I'm not for sure about the third person.
Q: How did you get your gasoline and oil for this vehicle, Charles?
A: At that time Brenda had a credit card.
Q: Was it a legitimate credit card, if you know?
A: I don't think there was ever any legitimate credit cards at the ranch.
Q: You mean you would just use a stolen credit card, or something of that nature?
A: Yes, that's correct.
Q: Did you get all the gas and oil you needed to get back to Golar Wash?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you ever use the credit card for anything other than gasoline and oil?
A: At some of those little filling stations out on the desert we used to get -- they had a little store -- might get some ice cream or something: you know, or something to drink or something like that.
Q: How long did you stay at Golar Wash when you got back the second time?
A: Into September there, it would have been; I say maybe two or three or five weeks, maybe.
Q: Did you oversee Mr. Manson --
A: Yes.
Q: -- during that three- or four-week period?
A: Yes, he came out to the desert in a car, I believe, at the same time.
We all kind of moved to the desert, when we turned around and went back to the desert from Spahn's; everybody just about, left the ranch.
Q: When you went from Spahn's to the Golar Ranch the second time, were there many people left at Spahn Ranch?
A: l'd say three, four, five or six, something like that, maybe,
Q: Did you see Manson at Spahn Ranch on that occasion? He told you to go back --
A: Yes.
Q: -- so, obviously, you saw him?
A: Yes.
Q: And there were a number of other people with him; is that correct?
A: Yes, everybody that was living at the ranch.
Q: Now, after you got to Golar Wash on that trip from Spahn Ranch, did Manson ever come up to Golar Wash while you were there?
A: Yes, we all went up.
Q: Did he stay up at Golar wash for any period of time?
A: Yes.
Q: How long?
A: I can't recall; I know he left and came back.
Q: Can you give us some idea of the number of people up in Golar Wash, now, in the family?
A: Probably about 10.
Q: Were there any drugs being used, if you know?
A: Only marijuana.
Q: Was that being used frequently or infrequently?
A: Pretty frequently -- I really can't recall how frequently it was used then.
Q: How about you, do you remember whether you were using it frequently or infrequently?
A: I would use it when everybody else used it.
Q: Any drugs other than marijuana being used that you are aware of?
A: Not that I'm aware of, no.
Q: Is this about the time that you saw Paul Crockett?
A: Yes, he was at the ranch there up in Golar Wash.
Q: And Brooks Poston and Paul Watkins, also?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have occasion to talk to Mr. Crockett from time to time?
A: Yes, a few times.
Q: Do you remember -- did you leave Golar Wash sometime?
A: Yes, Charlie sent me back into town with a list of things to do when I got back into town -- with a list, a paper -- and I went in and did what was on the list.
Q: And then what?
A: And then I remember one of the things on the list was to -- for everybody to come back to the desert, for everybody to leave the ranch.
Q: Now, when you say you came back to town, you mean you drove back from Golar Wash to Spahn Ranch; is that correct?
A: No, I hitchhiked.
Q: You told everybody at the ranch to go back to Golar Wash?
A: Yes, that was one of the things on the list.
Q: What other things were on the list that you can remember?
A: I can't remember the things on the list that good at all.
Q: At any rate, after you came into Spahn Ranch on this hitchhiking expedition that you told us about, did you hitchhike back to Golar Wash?
A: No, we went back in a little Volkswagen-like car.
Q: How many went back, if you remember?
A: About six; five or six.
Q: Can you fix the time of the day or month for use now?
A: It was at the end of September, I believe.
Q: Did you go back up to the same encampment at Golar?
A: Yes.
Q: How long did you stay after that, before you next left?
A: I want to say about two days, but I don't know for sure, maybe one day -- maybe one day, maybe two days or maybe three days.
Q: Did something happen -- did you leave the Golar Wash area?
A: Yes, after about two or three days when l was there the last time.
Q: Did something happen to make you leave the Wash?
A: I know we saw a highway patrolman up there and a forest ranger; and we were just kind of camping out in the desert and quite a ways from the ranch part; and Charlie took me over to the ranch part one night and told me to stay there, and left a shotgun with me and he -- some way he thought the forest ranger and the highway patrolman would come over, and he told me to kill them when they came over,
Q: So you now were left by yourself on this ranch; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: How far distant was that from the main encampment at Goler Wash?
A: Where they were?
Q: Yes, where they were at that time.
A: I don't know. It is quite a ways, though.
Q: What did you do?
A: I went to sleep that night and I woke up the next morning and I left.
Q: Where did you go when you left?
A: I went hack to Texas.
Q: Had you had any drugs while you were in Goler Wash other than the marijuana that you told us about?
A: No, I had not.
Q: When had you last taken any LSD, if you can remember?
A: My last trip was before the murders.
Q: Had there been much discussion between Manson and the remaining family members about helter skelter after the murders?
A: Yes. It was still coming down.
Q: Still coming down?
A: Yes.
Q: How about the passing around of acid and other drugs? Was that still taking place?
A: No, not that much.
Q: Did you sea any acid or drugs being used in the period following the murders?
A: Not that I can recall. There just wasn't hardly any acid. I don't think I saw any.
Q: Were you given any, you specifically, given any by Manson during that period?
A: No.
Q: Then on what day is it that you decided to leave or that you did leave the ranch?
A: I don't know. I didn't know what day it was but I come to find out that it was somewhere the first of October.
Q: What day did you finally get back to Texas?
A: Either the 2nd or the 3rd or the 4th, I believe.
Q: When you left the desert, when you left this ranch, what sort of clothing did you have? What were you wearing?
A: I remember Brooks gave me the clothes that he had on.
Q: What were they?
A: Well, a pair of jeans. They were really -- came way up on me. They were real short. And, I don't know, just probably an old shirt, I don't know what type of top I had.
Q: Where did you go after you left the desert? Where did you first go?
A: I took out in an old truck and went as far as it would go, Then I started hitch-hiking.
Q: Do you remember that big city or town you came to?
A: I first caught a ride to Trona. Then I caught a ride to San Bernardino.
Q: All right.
Somewhere along the line did you wire home for some money?
A: Yes. I called at San Bernardino. I called my parents and they sent me some money, to the Western Union.
Q: And then you went on home to Texas then?
A: Yes. I bought an airline ticket and I took over the old clothes I had on and got a pair of jeans and shirt and some shoes.
Q: What happened when you got to Texas?
A: I know my hair was too long and my sister took me by the barber shop and I got a haircut.
Q: Then you went on home?
A: Yes. She said it was too long to go back to my parents, or something. I went back to Copeville yes.
Q: Do you remember how long you stayed on that occasion?
A: Not very long. I was just there for a few days and the I took out again.
Q: Do you remember what you talked about when you first got home at Copeville?
A: Well, all I was talking about was helter skelter and Jesus and the world coming to an end.
Q: In other words, Manson was still very much with you; is that correct?
A: Yes. I couldn't get away from him, even though I was in Texas. He was still right in my head all the time.
Q: His philosophy was still part of you; is that right?
A: Yes, it was me.
Q: Why did you leave the ranch when he asked you to kill the patrolmen and the forest ranger?
A: I don't know. I just knew then that not to kill.
Q: Did you feel any differently about killing those people and the people that you had killed?
A: Yeah.
Q: What was the difference?
A: The other people I really didn't even know I killed. It was never real to me and then things were becoming more real when he asked me to kill the ranger and the highway patrolman.
Q: Had you been acid free, that is without taking acid for any period of time when you left that ranch?
A: I hadn't had any acid since the murders.
Q: How about speed?
A: No.
Q: How about belladonna?
A: No.
Q: How about cocaine?
A: No.
Q: How about hashish?
A: No.
Q: How about any of the amphetamines?
A: No. I hadn't had any drugs at all.
Q: How long did you stay then? You said a couple of days in Texas; is that right?
A: Yes. I can't remember exactly but it wasn't very long.
Q: Where did you go after that?
A: My parents gave me some money and I really didn't know where I was going. I was really mixed up, like Manson -- there was kind of a magnetic pull back to him, but I was all confused.
It seemed like I was living in about three or four worlds, you know, just, you know, so many different worlds I was looking at at that time and I ended up in Mexico.
Q: How long did you stay in Mexico?
A: About a couple of days and then I went right to California trying to find Manson, but I still didn't go back to him yet.
Q: Where did you go when you came to California?
A: I went to Hawaii.
Q: How long did you stay there?
A: About a week.
Q: Did you come back to California from Hawaii?
A: Came back to California.
Q: And when you got back, now where did you go?
A: I started out toward Manson again.
Q: Where did you go on this trip?
A: I hitch-hiked as far as Ridgecrest and then I remember walking all night long toward Trona and finally I caught a ride into Trona.
Q: Trona is on the edge of the desert?
A: Yes, And I walked from Trona all the way, a long ways, 50 miles or maybe 60 miles up Golar Wash and no one was there.
Q: Did you see Paul or Dave or Mr, Crockett?
A: I didn't see anyone.
Q: No members of the family there?
A: No.
Q: What did you do then?
A: Then I started walking back to Trona.
Q: And from Trona where did you go?
A: To town the other side of Troma, Ridgecrest.
Q: Where did you eventually wind up?
A: I called back home and asked for mother to send me some money so I could come home.
Q: Did she do that?
A: Yes. I want home.
Q: You went back home?
A: Yes.
Q: And you stayed there than until the time of your arrest; is that right?
A: That is correct.
Q: Stayed in Copeville?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Use any drugs in Copeville?
A: Only marijuana.
Q: On how many occasions? Do you remember?
A: Probably three or four or five times.
Q: Did you do that in the house?
A: No.
Q: Do that around your folks?
A: No.
Q: As you look back at it now, Charles, do you feel the same now as you did at the time of the Tate and LaBianca murders?
A: No, not at all.
Q: I think you told us yesterday that these were not real people at that time; is that right?
A: Yes. Nothing seemed real at that time.
Q: Did you have any feelings about what you were doing at that time?l
A: No feelings at all.
Q: Do you have any feelings about it now?
A: Yes. My feelings have grown quite a bit.
Q: How did that happen?
A: Well, through help from people and myself, I guess.
Q: How do you feel about it now?
A: Well, I just can't explain it, how you feel about something like that
Q: Do you realize now what you have done?
A: Yes.
Q: You realize the enormity of it?
A: Yes.
MR. BUBRICK: I have nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will take our morning recess at this time and once again please heed the admonition heretofore given you.
(Recess.)
THE COURT: People against Watson.
Let the record show all jurors, counsel and defendant are present.
Mr. Bugliosi.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BUGLIOSI:
Q: Mr. Watson, I show you some photographs here: People's 87, a photograph of Sharon Tate; People's 107, a photograph of Jay Sebring; people's 102, a photograph of Abigail Folger; people's 89, a photograph of Wojiciech Frykowski; people's 42, a photograph of Steven Parent, people's 91, a photograph of Leno LaBianca; and people's 93, a photograph of Rosemary LaBianca.
Now, just for the record, did you kill all seven of these people?
A: Yes.
Q: So you also killed Sharon Tate, then; is that correct, the female Caucasian depicted in people's 87?
A: As far as I know, yes.
Q: Now, when you stabbed her was there a rope around her neck?
A: Not that I could see.
Q: Was there any rope connecting her with Mr. Sebring?
A: I didn't see anything like that.
Q: You are not suggesting, are you, that after Sharon was already dead someone tied a rope around her, are you?
You are not suggesting that?
MR. BUBRICK: Object to the form of the question,
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Now, I notice, Tex, that when you took the witness stand and the clerk asked you to raise you right hand and swear to tell the truth, you raised your left hand. Any particular reason for that?
A: No.
Q: There was no confusion in your mind between your left and your right hand?
A: No.
Q: That wasn't for the benefit of the jury or anything like that, was it?
A: No.
Q: Have people always called you Tex?
A: No.
Q: When did you pick up that name of Tex?
A: Mr. Spahn, the owner of the ranch out there, named me Tex when I first came to the ranch.
Q: He knew you were from Texas so he called you Tex?
A: Yes.
Q: And your last name is Watson; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: Montgomery is not your last name?
A: No.
Q: Would you explain once again to the jury why you told Deputy Dennis Cox on August the 21,1969 that your name was Charles Montgomery?
A: I was going by that name.
Q: When did you start going by that name?
A: Well, about two or three or four months, when threw away my driver's license, because I still had warrants out in my name. Then I started going by that name and any name that popped in my head like everybody else did at the ranch did, you know.
Q: You didn't give Mr. Cox a phony name because you were trying to avoid arrest for these murders, did you?
A: No. I had been using that name for quite a while, you know.
Q: So you were very concerned about being picked up on these traffic tickets; is that correct?
A: That is why I threw away my billfold, yes.
Q: But that is why you gave Mr, Cox this phony name because you were thinking about these traffic tickets; is that right?
A: No, not really. I didn't have any thoughts. That was just the name I was using. That is the name I gave.
Q: Did you testify on direct examination that you gave him that name because you knew there were some traffic warrants out under the name of Watson?
A: That is why I started using the name Montgomery because of the traffic warrants, yes.
Q: Isn't one possible reason why you never gave your correct name, Tex, because you didn't want to be arrested for these murders?
MR. BUBRICK: Object to the question.
MR. KEITH: Object to the question as argumentative.
THE COURT: I will allow him to answer.
THE WITNESS: Would you repeat the question once more?
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: One possible reason why you never gave your true name, Tex, is because you didn't want to be arrested for these murders, isn't it?
A: No.
Q: That thought never entered your mind; is that correct?
A: No, I didn't have, really, any thought at that time.
Q: You had no thoughts in your mind; you just walked around and you acted, but no thoughts in your mind; is that what you are trying to tell the jury?
A: Yeah, that's the way I was, kind of, yes.
Q: Do you have any thoughts in your mind right now on the witness stand?
A: Yes, I have got a lot of thought back.
Q: You are thinking pretty clearly now, aren't you?
A: Sometimes I think clearly and sometimes I don't.
Q: And you are well aware, of course, that you are on trial for seven counts of murder and one count of conspiracy to commit murder; you are aware of that?
A: Yes, I'm aware.
Q: And you are aware that the prosecution is seeking the death penalty against you?
A: Yes
Q: Would this realising on your part cause you to lie just a little bit on the witness stand, Tex?
MR. BUBRICK: Object to that question.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. BUGLIOSI: His credibility, I want to know whether he is lying or rot.
MR. BUBRICK: Then ask him.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I want to know whether he is telling the truth or not --
THE COURT: You may resort to specifics, not a generalization like that.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I can't go down a list of a thousand questions and examine whether he lied on every one of them. I want to know whether he's lying now.
THE COURT: If you cannot do so, refrain from doing so.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Have you been lying on the witness stand, Mr. Watson?
A: No, I have not.
Q: You wouldn't think of lying, would you?
A: No.
Q: Why wouldn't you think of lying, Tex?
MR. BUBRICK: It is immaterial.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Why do you want to tell the truth?
A: Well, that's just what comes out now, is the truth.
Q: Was the truth coining out when you were stabbing these people at the Tate residence?
A: There was no thought.
Q: When Mr. Cox approached you in Olancha, why did you run into the bushes?
A: I didn't see Mr. Cox until I had already got over to where I could see Mr. Cox.
Q: Why did you run at all?
A: I can't remember running.
Q: Is it your testimony now that you did not run up in Olancha when Mr. Cox approached; is that your testimony?
A: I don't recall running, no
Q: You don't recall going into the bushes at all?
A: Yes, I recall going into the bushes.
Q: Why did you go into the bushes?
A: I went to the rest room in the bushes.
Q: And it just happened that you went into the bushes, to the rest room or the bathroom, in the bushes at the same time that Mr. Cox was there; is that right, it was just a coincidence?
A: Well, I went to the rest room and then I walked out of the bushes.
Q: But it was a coincidence; is that correct?
A: I don't know. That's just what I did, you know.
Q: Mr. Cox had a police uniform, didn't he?
A: Yes, he did.
Q: And his vehicle was a marked police vehicle, wasn't it?
A: It was in front of the house, yes,
Q: But you weren't hiding from Mr. Cox at all, were you?
A: No, I wasn't.
Q: Tex, I have noticed that you frequently open your mouth and you keep it open for a period of time, even though you are not talking.
Is there any particular reason for that?
A: Well, my mouth is always very dry and that's the way I breathe is through my mouth.
Q: So you deliberately open your mouth --
MR. BUBRICK: That's not what he said.
THE COURT: He said that's the way he breathes.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: So, in other words, it is an intentional act on your part, to open your mouth; is that right?
MR. BUBRICK: That's not what he said, either, your Honor.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I'm asking him a question; this is cross-examination, your Honor.
THE COURT: Well, don't preface it with "so."
Do you open your mouth intentionally or is it natural for you to breathe?
THE WITNESS: No, I breathe easier to have my mouth open, so I can breathe better.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: So this is a physical thing on your part; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: I believe you testified that the first time you smoked marijuana was in Dallas, Texas; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: And how did you get the marijuana at that time?
A: I walked into a girl's apartment; I had met her at a club in Dallas and there was a smell in the room and someway that smell came into the conversation, and she said it was an old pot burning, or something to that effect; and it ended up that I smoked some marijuana with her a few days later.
Q: She gave you the marijuana cigarette?
A: Yes, correct.
Q: Then when you were living with Mt. Neale out here in Los Angeles, I believe you testified you smoked marijuana 30 or 40 times.
A: I don't know how many times but we smoked marijuana quite often together.
Q: Where did you get the marijuana?
A: At that time it came from a friend that was working at the wig shop with us.
Q: He furnished the marijuana to you?
A: No. David and I purchased some marijuana.
Q: And the first time you took LSD was at Dennis Wilson's residence?
A: Yes, I was told that I might have took some LSD when I was down at my beach house but I didn't believe that it was LSD because it never did do anything to me.
Q: At the time you took marijuana and LSD you, of course, were aware that it was against the law; is that right?
A: Yes. I was aware that it was against the law.
Q: Were you afraid you would get caught when you smoked the marijuana and took the LSD?
A: Yes.
Q: Now, how did you justify taking this LSD and smoking marijuana if you knew it was against the law? How did you justify it at the time?
A: I don't really know how I justified it.
Q: Were you thinking around that time too?
A: That is what I did, yes. I smoked marijuana and had thought then --
Q: How did you justify in your mind, that it was against the law but you were doing it anyway?
A: It was just what kids were doing then. That is what I did.
Q: Is it true then that before you even met Charles Manson you had smoked marijuana and you had ingested LSD; is that correct?
A: I am not for sure about the ingestion of LSD because I did not start taking LSD for sure while I knew it was LSD until with Dean and I had already met Charlie and the girls and Dennis.
Q: But Charles Manson was not the person who got you involved in LSD; isn't that correct?
A: I can't really -- it was, you know, during the time Dean was at Dennis' and Manson was around. I remember Manson having some LSD but he didn't ever give me any at Dennis Wilson's. I don't know where it came from.
Q: So you ingested LSD and smoked marijuana before you ever got involved with Charles Manson; isn't that correct?
A: Yes, with Dean Moorehouse.
Q: Charles Manson then was not the person that got you started on marijuana or LSD; is that correct?
A: No. I would say it would be Dean and Charles and maybe Dennis, you know, just around the Wilson house there.
Q: So my statement is correct then?
A: Well, I can't be positive about it, you know, to say that it is.
Q: Other than narcotics, Tex, before you met Charles Manson, did you have any trouble with the law?
MR. KEITH: Object to the question as immaterial.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I believe near the end of your testimony, oh, about five minutes before the end of your testimony you testified in answer to this question by Mr. Bubrick:
"Q: When had you last taken any LSD if you can remember?"
Do you recall answering:
"my last trip was before the murders."
Do you recall giving that answer to that question?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: And you know the difference between the words "before," "during," and "after," don't you? There is no confusion in your mind about those words.
A: Well, I remember taking it right before, yes.
Q: Okay, Do you recall to yesterday afternoon that after the Tate murders on the night of the LaBianca murders Charles Manson gave you some LSD?
A: Well, that time too. That is what I mean, before the murders there, yes.
Q: You say you decided to come out to California after your junior year at North Texas State College; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: And you came out here for adventure purposes?
A: Yes. That is about the only thing I could come up with on that.
Q: And your parents didn't want you to come out here.
A: There was a small objection but I came, you know.
Q: You decided to come?
A: Yes.
Q: You made up your own mind?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: What do you mean for adventure purposes? How do you define the word adventure? Narcotics, girls, or what?
A: No. I just never had been away from home and I knew David out here, you know, and I called him up and I came out a few times and it was just something new and I moved out with Dave.
Q: Isn't it true, Tex, that the main reason you came out here is you wanted to get into the movies?
A: No. I knew David and his brother were -- had something to do, maybe, with the movies, but I never really had anything to do with the movies, you know.
Q: Now, I know you didn't, Tex, but that thought was on your mind of getting into the movies?
A: Maybe a little bit. I don't know. Since David and his brother were in the movies, it might have been a little bit but --
Q: Did you ever try to become a movie actor?
A: The only time I ever had anything to do with that, I went down to this acting place that has extra help or something that you can become like a stand-in or something and it didn't work out, you know.
Q: When was that?
A: Right after I got out here and was going to college and working at the wig place.
Q: Once you arrived in Los Angeles, did you ever live with any girl?
A: There was a girl living with Dave at our place up Laurel Canyon and another girl -- you mean all during the time I was living in California?
Q: Yes.
A: And another girl, it was Dave's girlfriend, and he went into the Army and I stayed with her a while too.
Q: What was her name?
A: Rosina was her name.
Q: How long did you live with Rosina?
A: I was staying with Rosina off and on at the same time with Dave's brother and Drew and Lloyd; I guess that was kind of my central headquarters, was Rosina. That's where my mailing address was.
Q: Were you sexually involved with Rosina?
A: Yes.
Q: And Rosina was whose girl friend, now?
A: She was Dave's.
Q: The man who testified on your behalf --
A: Yeah, previously; and he went into the army.
Q: Did you ever take it upon yourself to tell Dave that you were having intercourse with Rosina?
A: Yes.
Q: What did he say?
A: He didn't have any --
Q: No objection?
A: No objection, no.
Q: In early August of 1969, did you go to El Monte with Rosina and several other people?
A: Yes.
Q: And what was the purpose of your going to El Monte with Rosina and some others?
MR. KEITH: May we approach the bench, your Honor?
THE COURT: What time is this?
MR. KEITH: Early August, 1969.
THE COURT: Approach the bench.
(The following proceedings were had at the bench, out of the hearing of the jury)
MR. KEITH: Mr. Bugliosi is going into another offense involving a marijuana party -- in other words, Mr. Watson took some money from a man named Crow for the purpose of getting some marijuana for Mr. Crow; and Mr. Watson did not deliver the marijuana, but kept the moncy.
This type of evidence would be admissible, presumably, in the penalty phase; but I don't believe it is material at this phase of the case, as showing -- he is merely trying to show the bad character of the witness, No. 1, by the crimes, which are not germane to the murders in this case.
THE COURT: What is your offer of proof?
MR. BUGLIOSI: It is exactly what he said but let me point this out to the Court. The defense, their whole defense in the penalty trial was sympathy, calling the mother -- that's all done during the penalty phase -- sympathy; he's the All American boy, good grades, plays sports -- if they can do it there on direct examination, on cross-examination, we can bring out to the jury that he is not as clean-cut a kid as he is claiming.
It is not opening in in the form of impeachment of credibility as to whether he is telling the truth; it is coming in for telling the jury what kind of a character he is -- they are the ones that brought this up -- not just character, or for nonviolence, but claims for being a good guy, never getting in trouble, obeying the parents, working around the store, a member of the FFA --
THE COURT: This is long after he left the parents and long after he left the store.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, wait a minute; there is an incident in Texas where he was involved in the theft of some typewriters.
I think I can bring this in; they are bringing in what a great guy he was back in Texas --
THE COURT: I don't think you can bring it in The Evidence Code is very specific as to how a witness is to be impeached; and by specific instances of this kind, just to show his bad character or criminality, it is not admissible.
MR. BUGLIOSI: The other ones that have raised the issue on direct examination by showing his good character --
MR. BUBRICK: Not at all, your Honor.
MR. KAY: May I make one point on this, your Honor: On this incident that took place on August 1st, the marijuana, the second purpose we would be admitting this to show that Mr. Watson's state of mind, around this time he was clear-thinking; there was around $2,000 involved in this marijuana purchase. Mr. Watson took the money from this Negro fellow, walked in the house and said he was going to get the marijuana and just walked out the back door with the $2,000.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Plus, your Honor, he is doing it on his own, which shows that around the time of the murders, he is thinking clearly; he is acting deceptively.
The whole thrust of the defense is that he was a puppy dog around this time, couldn't do anything on his own, wasn't deceiving people -- furthermore, I am going to -- I don't see how this stuff can help but come in during the guilt phase, when the psychiatrists take the stand —
THE COURT: We will worry about that then.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I am just saying that I think it is a consideration; it is not something that can't come in during the guilt phase, but his state of mind around the time of the murders is extremely crucial, if he's acting on his own -- he has already testified he wasn't even thinking around that time. If he acts on his own, deceiving people, taking money, not delivering what he promised to give, I think that is relevant.
THE COURT: I am sustaining the objection.
(The following proceedings were had in open court, in the hearing of the jury)
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: When you were living at Dennis Wilson's residence, who was supporting you?
A: While I was living at Dennis Wilson's?
We rented out our beach house for two months and I -- we rented it out for $400 a month and we were paying $325 a month, and 1 made $160 -- $160, I believe; and that's what money I had.
Q: Was Dennis giving you any money?
A: No.
Q: Or clothing?
A: We were wearing his clothing, yes.
Q: Any food?
A: Yes, the food was delivered to the house. I remember each morning there'd be some food out on the front porch.
Q: Did you ever take anything from Dennis without his telling you you could?
A: No, I did not
Q: Did you meet Dean Moorehouse before or after you met Charles Manson?
A: On the same night.
Q: Can you briefly describe Moorehouse's philosophy -- very briefly?
A: He was always preaching in the bible, out of the bible; and also the philosophy that Charles Manson had taught him or told him about being free, because, as he said, he had set his daughter free by giving her to Charles Manson; and the way you become free was to lose all your thought, and when you lose all your thought, you could submit entirely; and this was what love was, was giving, and this is about the philosophy.
Q: What about the antiestablishment? Dean was quite a bit against the establishment, wasn't he?
A: Not that much. He just brought up what the establishment -- or, that they had thought and that this is what -- that they had thought, and that love didn't have any thought.
Q: Well, Dean was kind of down on the establishment, wasn't he?
A: No, he never was really down that such on the establishment,
Q: Well, he told you he didn't want to have anything to do with the establishment, right, he wanted to drop out?
A: Well, he was talking about no thoughts and that was the only thing the establishment had: thought.
Q: Did he indicate to you -- I am talking about Dean, now -- the the establishment was headed for trouble?
A: I can't recall anything like that,
Q: Words to the effect that the establishment was on its way out; that a new order was going to take over?
A: No, I don't believe he said anything about that.
Q: You testified yesterday that Brenda and Squeaky and Sadie gave orders out at the ranch, those girls gave orders to the other girls; they did not give orders to the men; isn't that correct?
A: Well, they didn't give orders that much at all. What they did, they would just -- they would do what Charlie said that all the women in the world did; and he said that the women over the world had the men all under their thumb, because -- he called them witches, all the women were witches, because they had all the men working for them from 8:00 to 5:00 every day.
Q: My question is: When Brenda and Squeaky and Sadie told people to do things, they were telling other girls in the family; is that correct?
A: They would tell other girls and also any guys that they could -- that they were the older members of the family and they had got there when the family had started and they were more Charlie and had more of his way of life in their head.
Q: Tex, you are not denying that the policy in the family was for the girls to do everything the men told them to do? You are not denying that, are you?
MR. BUBRICK: Argumentative, if your Honor please.
THE COURT: Objection to the form of the question sustained.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: It was the policy, wasn't it, Mr. Watson, that the girls did everything the men told them to do; isn't that right?
A: Well, I know they did what Charlie told them to do.
Q: They would do what you told them to do also; right?
A: I can remember the only thing that they would ever do for me is to wash the parts off because Charlie wanted them -- wanted me to be working more on the dune buggies and not washing off parts and doing things that girls could do.
Q: No girl ever told you what to do out at Spahn Ranch; isn't that correct?
A: Not actually told, no.
Q: You made love to all the girls in the family, didn't you, Tex?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Most of them?
A: No.
Q: Some of them?
A: Yes.
Q: How many?
A: I would say probably our or five.
Q: Wasn't one of the big attractions that that family had for you was the fact that there was free love? Wasn't that one of the big attractions?
A: That may have been one of the attractions but that was also one of my hangups, I guess you would say.
Q: What do you mean by hangup?
A: Well, I just wasn't a big love maker, you know, in a physical way.
Q: You had a reputation of being very good with the women out there, didn't you? Tex, don't be embarrassed now.
A: Not that I know of, no. I did not have a reputation of being good with the woman.
Q: You wanted to go to sleep with them right after you met them; isn't that right?
A: No, that is not correct.
Q: The first time you saw Linda, wasn't it about three or four minutes later that you were making love to her?
A: That is correct.
Q: What was it about Linda that caused you to be so amorous?
A: Well, I guess the fact that she was a new girl there and that all the other girls, they kind of looked down upon me because they were all with the family before I was and they saw how straight I was when I first got there, and that was always in my mind and their mind too, I believe.
Q: When did you first believe that Charles Manson was Jesus Christ?
A: All during the -- while I knew him.
Q: Do you still feel he is Jesus Christ?
A: I am totally away from Charlie now.
Q: You don't believe he is Jesus Christ any more?
A: No.
Q: When did you stop believing that he was Jesus Christ?
A: It is kind of hard to say.
Q: Approximately when? I don't mean the exact moment.
A: Sometimes his world still pops into me and pops back out and I kind -- but I would say I just don't know when. I don't have an approximate idea. I stay between the two worlds so much in the past, him and what I used to be, that I just don't know.
Q: How, by that you don't believe he is Jesus any more?
A: No, but sometimes I have my doubts. I just don't know -- just like I am away from him now and I try to stay as far away as I can.
Q: You have spoken to many psychiatrists since you have been brought out here from Texas; isn't that right?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: And you told them about Manson and your relationship with him; isn't that correct?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Isn't it true, Tex, that you never told one single psychiatrist that you thought Charles Manson was Jesus Christ; isn't that true?
A: I might have used the word "Supreme Being" or "Christ" or Messiah,"
Q: Are you saying now that you did tell psychiatrists that you thought maybe he was a supreme being? Is that what your testimony is?
A: No. I really can't recall.
Q: You never told one; isn't that right, Tex?
A: I don't know.
Q: Isn't it true, Tex, that you along with some other members of the family never thought that Manson was Christ?
A: No. That was one of the big things, that he was a perfect supreme being, a Christ, yes.
Q: He was a father figure to you, wasn't he, Tex?
A: I really don't know why I stuck to him like that, you know.
Q: Did you tell the psychiatrists that you had kind of a weak father and Charlie represented kind of a strong father image to you?
A: No, not to that effect, no.
Q: In November I believe you said of 1968 you left Manson, is that correct, and you went to Mr. Neal?
A: Yes.
Q: Went to live with Mr. Neal?
A: Yes.
Q: In Highland Park?
A: I believe that is what it is or Pasadena-like area, you know.
Q: Did you tell Charlie you were leaving?
A: No, I did not.
Q: How did you happen to leave? What were the circumstances surrounding your leaving?
A: I came back down, from north in the school bus and I had been away from Charlie for a little while, because he sent us up to the candy man to get candy and I came back down and I called David and I told him that I was just losing myself and that --
Q: What were the physical circumstances surrounding your leaving? Did you pack up your belongings and get in the car and drive away?
A: I had no belongings, no.
Q: How did you happen to leave the ranch? Did you tell anyone?
A: No, I did not. I hitch-hiked away from the bus. I wasn't at the ranch at that time.
Q: Where were you?
A: The bus was parked down in Topanga Canyon.
Q: This one time in November of 1968 that you left him and you went to live with David Neal, you say you called Manson and he convinced you to come back?
A: Repeat that one more time again.
Q: This one time in November you went to live with David Neal, November of 1968; is that correct?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Then after that a month or two after you say Charlie, or you got in touch with Charlie by calling him at the ranch.
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: This one time in November you went to live with David Neal in November of 1968; isn't that right?
A: Yes, that is right.
Q: And then after that, a month or two, you say Charlie -- or you got in touch with Charlie by calling him at the ranch.
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: And he convinced you to come back to him?
A: He asked me to come out, yes.
Q: He didn't threaten you in any fashion whatsoever, did he?
A: No.
Q: You went back voluntarily; is that correct?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: Do you believe that there is an imminent revolution between blacks and whites, Tex? In other words, there is going to be a war, a civil war between blacks and whites very soon? Do you believe that?
A: I really don't know what to believe right now
Q: Do you still entertain that thought in your mind at all?
A: I just don't know what to believe. I am rather confused in a lot of ways.
Q: Did you ever study the bible back in Texas?
A: Yes. I went to church and read the bible but not that much.
Q: Did you read the Book of Revelations back in Texas?
A: I knew nothing about Revelations.
Q: On the night of the Tate murders, Tex, when you left the Spahn Ranch in John Swartz's car, you knew that you were going to Terry Melcher's former residence and kill everyone inside the residence; right?
A: Yes. I knew where I was going. I was going up to the --
Q: So you knew that the mission was murder before you even left Spahn Ranch; is that right?
A: I really had no thought of what even murder was.
Q: You knew that the mission was going to kill these people; is that correct?
A: I had no thought. I was just doing what Charlie told me to do.
Q: You knew you weren't going to the Tate residence to play Canasta, didn't you, Tex?
A: I had no thought.
Q: Have you ever heard of Canasta?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: You have heard of volleyball?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: You weren't going there to do those things, were you?
A: I had no thought of what I was doing.
Q: What was that knife in your hand for?
A: It was put there by Mr. Manson.
Q: What were you going to do with that knife?
A: I was told to kill everybody in the house with it.
Q: Now the word "kill" comes out, not Canasta; right, Tex, kill?
THE COURT: Just a moment. Change your form of examination, Mr. Bugliosi.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Isn't it true, Tex, that no matter how many people were inside that residence, you were going to kill them?
A: I was told by Mr. Manson to make sure everybody was dead.
Q: Talking about your state of mind now.
Isn't it true that no matter who was inside that residence, you were going to kill them?
A: I was told to, yes.
Q: Not talking about what you were told, Tex. I am talking about after you were told by Mr. Manson, it was your state of mind that no matter who was inside that residence, you were going to kill them; right?
A: Yes, I believe so.
Q: If there were 10 people inside, you would have killed 10 people; isn't that right, Tex?
A: I guess I would; that's what I was told to do, make sure everybody was dead, as gruesome as possible, yes.
Q: What would you have done, Tex, if you arrived at the Tate residence and you saw a squad of police cars at the scene?
What would you have done then, would you want to turn around and go back to Charlie?
MR. BUBRICK: I think that in objectionable, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: On the following night, at the time you left Spahn Ranch, you knew at that time that you were going to go out and kill; isn't that right?
A: I was really blank, without any thoughts.
Q: How did you know what to do, if you never had any thought in your mind, Tex?
A: Well, I was being run by Mr. Manson.
Q: So he put the thought in your mind, then; right?
A: That's the only thought I had.
Q: So you did have a thought in your mind, and that thought was to go out and kill; is that right?
A: I had a thought of Mr. Manson, yes.
Q: You weren't going to kill Mr. Manson, though, were you?
A: No.
Q: Did you ever take drugs out at Spahn Ranch without telling Charlie about it? I believe you testified that he was the dispenser of the drugs, or he would dispense them through the girls; is that right?
A: Yes, that is correct.
Q: So you were afraid, then, to take drugs without Charlie knowing about it; would that be correct?
A: No, sometimes I did take drugs without him knowing about it.
Q: I believe the Tate murders -- what is called the Tate murders -- these are the killings, Tex, took place on the Cielo address --
A: Yes.
Q: -- took place in the early morning hours of August 9th, which would be a Saturday. Now, you left Spahn Ranch on a Friday. Are you with me on that?
A: Yes.
Q: Friday night.
A: Yes.
Q: Now, the previous night would be August the 7th; that would be a Thursday night; is that correct?
A: Yes, Thursday, Friday and Saturday; right.
Q: Now, did you take speed on August the 7th
A: I was taking --
Q: -- Thursday night?
A: I was taking speed most every day for about the last month or two there.
Q: So you took speed, then, on the evening of August the 7th?
A: Yes, I stayed up all night, I believe, that night.
Q: Did you tell Charlie that you had taken the speed?
A: Why we were taking speed was to be able to stay up and work on dune buggies, but I never hardly worked on dune buggies, I was so high all the time.
Q: My question is, when you took the speed on August the 7th, that a Thursday --
A: Yes.
Q: Did you tell Charlie that you had taken the speed, or did he know that you had taken the speed?
A: I can't recall.
Q: Was Charlie in the vicinity when you took the speed?
A: He was always around the ranch, but I don't recall that particular time.
Q: You were up all night?
A: Yes.
Q: This would be going to early morning, then, the early morning of Friday morning; is that correct?
A: That is correct.
Q: And where were you on the ranch that night?
A: I was at the waterfall; I ended up at the waterfall.
Q: Did you see Charlie at all that night?
A: Yes, he was at the waterfall sleeping, and I had heard he was on belladonna, you know. I didn't know.
Q: Did you talk to Charlie that night?
A: I really don't recall that much.
Q: But you saw him sleeping?
A: Yes.
Q: Was he sleeping with anyone?
A: There was a lot of people sleeping, you know, out in the open; I can't recall if he -- if he, you know, had anybody beside him or not.
Q: Just so we don't have any confusion here, Tex, August the 7th, that's a Thursday; August the 8th is a Friday; August the 9th, Saturday; August the 10th, a Sunday.
You took speed on August the 7th, a Thursday; is that correct?
A: Yes, I was taking a lot of speed all during that month.
Q: And you were up all night?
A: Yes.
Q: So you were up in the early morning hours of Friday; August the 8th; is that correct?
A: Yes, right at the time between daylight and dark.
Q: All right. At the waterfall?
A: Yes, that's correct.
Q: And you say you saw Charlie sleeping?
A: Yes, I did.
Q: Daylight
A: No, not
Q: Dusk -- not dusk; but dawn?
A: It was kind of in between, I remember.
Q: You also took some belladonna on August the 8th, a Friday?
A: Early in the morning, yes.
Q: Again, early morning, August 8th, a Friday?
A: Right, yes.
Q: Did Charlie know that you took the belladonna?
A: I'm not for sure; like I went out on the belladonna and I don't know what Charlie knew then.
Q: Did you tell him you had taken belladonna?
A: No, I did not tell him that.
Q: What would you say, Tex, if I told you Charles Manson wasn't even in Los Angeles in the early morning hours of August the 8th?
MR. KEITH: Objection, your Honor.
MR. BUBRICK: I'd object to that, your Honor.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I can ask him that.
THE COURT: Sustained.
THE WITNESS: Do I answer the question?
MR. BUBRICK: No.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Are you aware, Tex, that Charles Manson was not in Los Angeles the early morning hours of August 8th?
MR. BUBRICK: Assumes facts not in evidence, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: So on the night of the Tate murders, Tex, you had belladonna, speed and LSD in your system; is that correct?
A: Yes, that would be correct.
Q: Did you have anything else in your system?
A: Nope; I can't recall of anything.
Q: Do you recall a doctor by the name of Dr. Frank?
A: I have talked to so many, I couldn't tell you.
Q: This doctor's first name is Ira Frank; he interviewed you in March and April of 1971 out at UCLA.
Do you remember that doctor?
A: I'm sure he did.
Q: Do you remember telling him that you also took cocaine?
A: No, I do not recall that.
Q: Do you recall being interviewed by a Dr. Bohr, B-o-h-r, in May of 1971?
A: As I said, I have been by a lot of doctors, and I do recall hearing that name, though.
Q: Do you recall that the only drug you told him you had taken was belladonna on the night of the Tate murders?
A: No, I don't recall that.
Q: Tex, why don't you admit to these folks on the jury that you had no drugs in your system on the night of the Tate murders?
MR. KEITH: Objection --
MR. BUBRICK: Objection, if your Honor please.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
The jury will disregard that question entirely.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You testified, I believe, Tex, that whenever you took belladonna you had blackouts and hallucinations; is that correct?
A: Yes.
Q: This is your testimony yesterday; do you remember that?
A: That is correct.
Q: And how long would a bad trip normally take?
A: It just depended on -- are you talking about the whole trip from start to finish?
Q: Well, from the time the bad effect first took effect upon your body until it no longer was having any effect?
A: I'd say about 10 days or a week.
Q: And you'd have blackouts and hallucinations during this period of time?
A: No, not the whole period of time, no.
Q: But off and on during that period?
A: No, not during the first part of the trip you would black out and then if someone woke you up or something, you could get up and run around earlier; but if no one woke you up, you'd just stay out for a while longer, but ---
Q: When would you have these hallucinations?
A: You'd have hallucinations while you were out; and then the first part of it after you woke up, for a while, and then the rest of the time you'd just be kind of in a daze and being able to see the wind blow and being able to see a lot of things; and a lot of things out of the corners of your eyes.
Q: On the night of the Tate murders, did you have any blackouts?
A: I was halfway in between and halfway -- I was kind of half and half.
Q: How would you define a blackout?
A: A total blackout would be going out all the way and not seeing anything; and then -- that's what I would describe as a blackout.
Q: Do you recall telling Dr. Bailey that you had blackouts at the time of the murder?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you in fact have blackouts?
A: I was halfway in between and halfway -- sometimes you go out, blackout, and sometimes you are light again and sometimes you are just floating between the two.
Q: During the blackout, do you know what you are doing?
A: During a blackout, you are out and you do things that you don't know you are doing, actually.
Q: You didn't have any blackout when you were stabbing these people?
A: When I was stabbing them?
Q: Right. At the time you were plunging your knife into their bodies, you didn't have a blackout at that time, did you?
A: Like I said, I was kind of halfway in between black and light, most of the time.
Q: Does belladonna tend to give you a lot of energy?
A: It gives you a tremendous amount of energy, so much energy that it is just unreal, you know.
Q: And speed also gives you energy; right?
A: Speed? I don't know about the energy, it gives you energy, but it more or less puts you in a buzzing state of mind, where you are just -- I forget what the word is -- you are wired like on speed.
Q: Full of electricity?
A: Yes, electricity, too.
Q: Wide awake?
A: It depends on when you take it. If you take it after a belladonna trip, to bring you up on the belladonna, you wouldn't be as awake as if you just take speed by itself.
When you take speed itself, you are just buzzing. You are not really -- you are awake but you are just buzzing, kind of like a machine or something.
Q: If belladonna gives you all this energy and speed tends to speed you up and makes you feel like buzzing around, how come, according to you, you claim you were sleeping in the back seat of the Tate car -- I mean the back seat of the Swartz car on the way to the Tate residence?
A: Belladonna gives you energy but it also relaxes you so much that you are --
Q: I see.
THE COURT: Let him answer the question, please.
THE WITNESS: You haven't got any -- you can't tell but your muscles, really. It relaxes you so that your muscles seem tender and your body, you can look at your body and you are just muscle and bone and then when you grab a hold of something, it just seems like you can break it in two and you don't even realize you are doing it.
Q BY MR. BUGLIOSI: So although belladonna gives you a lot of energy and speed makes you feel like buzzing around, on the night of the Tate murders you were fast asleep in the back seat of the car, is that correct, Tex?
A: You can go to sleep and then when you awake, if somebody shakes you or waken you up or something, you are buzzing, yes.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I think this might be a convenient time.
THE COURT: Very well.
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will recess at this time until 1:30. Please, again heed the usual admonition.
(Whereupon, the jury was excused and the following proceedings took place in the judge's chambers)
THE COURT: Let the record show we are in the chambers outside of the presents of the jury.
Go ahead.
MR. BUGLIOSI: The court has permitted an incredibly wide latitude on direct examination. Of course, I don't have to state the law that cross-examination is always more broad than direct. You can ask leading questions on cross-examination and not that the court is going to change, but I want the court to know that I am kind of disturbed.
I feel that you are limiting cross-examination to an unreasonable standpoint. If you can't ask a witness whether he is lying on the witness stand, and if it is necessary that you have to ask him every single question did he lie on that question -- I don't quite understand. His state of mind is very relevant on the witness stand, whether he is telling the truth or telling a lie and if I raise my voice a little bit, you tell me to go onto another subject.
This is cross-examination and seven people are dead here and I don't quite understand the court's position. The court was very liberal on direct.
THE COURT: I will make my position very clear. Whether seven or seventy people are dead, a witness is entitled to the same protection, whether he is a witness or a defendant, and the prosecution is limited to asking proper questions on cross-examination.
MR. BUGLIOSI: All right.
THE COURT: When I believe on your examination the question is improper, I am going to sustain an objection. Now, I never heard a question like you asked: "Why don't you admit to this jury that you had no drugs in you the night of the Tate murder?"
MR. BUGLIOSI: I have asked it many times and I have heard it asked many times by defense attorneys and prosecutors. You have been on the bench and you have been a lawyer 10 times longer than I have, or five times --
THE COURT: I never heard that question and in my court if that is asked I am going to admonish the jury to disregard it, see, and when you try to bring in acts of his conduct other than prior convictions, just for the purpose of showing that he is of bad character, I am going to stop you from doing so.
MR. BUGLIOSI: The defense, your Honor, during direct examination tried to show that he is a good boy.
THE COURT: Did you object once?
MR. BUGLIOSI: I think it is admissible, just like I feel these other things are admissible,
THE COURT: I don't think that other offenses are admissible.
MR. BUGLIOSI: If they are being brought in to show lack of credibility, but we want to show the type of guy he is. The picture that they painted is an all-American boy from Texas, never did anything wrong,
Now, I think if they do that on direct, and I think they can, I think it is proper on cross-examination. We have the right to show that he is not an all-American boy.
THE COURT: By proper questions you may do so, but if I think they are proper I will allow them and if I think they are improper I will sustain the objection.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: I have no love for this kid or any other person charged with murder, but it is my duty to protect him as well as any other witness that takes that stand.
MR. BUGLIOSI: There is no question about that but I feel that on cross-examination it is different than on direct.
THE COURT: You have a wide latitude on cross-examination but it must be within the realm of proper cross-examination. There is nothing personal in this case at all, Mr. Bugliosi, so far as you and I are concerned.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Oh, of course not.
THE COURT: And nothing personal. I will rule as I think I should rule.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I am not even suggesting that, of course not. I am just saying that I feel that the court thus far has been overly restrictive on cross-examination. That is all I am saying.
THE COURT: I am sorry you feel that way. That is the way I rule.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Thanks, Judge.
(The noon recess was taken until 1:30 p.m. of the same day.)