1:30 P.M.

THE COURT: People against Watson.

Let the record show all jurors, all counsel. and the defendant are present.

Mr. Watson, would you resume the stand, please?

THE CLERK: You have been previously sworn.

resumed the stand and testified as follows

THE CLERK: Would you restate your name for the record?

THE WITNESS: Charles Watson.

THE CLERK: Thank you.

MR. BUBRICK: Your Honor, before I pick up where I left off, may I approach the witness, please?

THE COURT: You may do so.

MR. BUBRICK: Your Honor, I have three photographs have heretofore shown them to counsel; I show the defendant the defendant's photograph -- may it be marked WA for "Watson A," if your Honor please?

THE COURT: It may be so marked.

Gentlemen, for the record, we have the alphabetical series in another case under the same number, so I think to keep them apart we'll prefix all the defense exhibits with a "W," indicating "Watson."

MR. BUGLIOSI: Yes, your Honor.


Q: I show you WA, Mr. Watson, and ask you to look at that picture, please.

Do you recall the photograph being taken at or about the time of your graduation?

A: Yes.

Q: And is that the kind of a cap and gown you wore at the time of graduation?

A: Yes, it is.

Q: And do you recognize that picture as a picture of you at the time of graduation?

A: Yes.

MR. BUBRICK: I have another photograph; may it be marked WB for identification, if your Honor please?

Q: I show you that photograph, Mr. Watson, and ask you if you recognize the likeness of yourself in that photo?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember when it was taken?

A: I believe my junior year in high school.

MR. BUBRICK: I have another photo, your Honor; may it be marked WC?

Q: And I show you that WC, Mr. Watson, and ask you to look at that photo, please. Do you recognize yourself in a football uniform?

A: Yes.

Q: And do you remember when that photo was taken?

A: Either my junior or senior year.

Q: Do you happen to remember the game that you were playing in at the time?

A: No, I don't.

THE COURT: Is that your number, 26?


Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Now, Mr. Watson, I think when we left off at the noon break you were with Mr. Dean Morehouse in Terry Melcher's Jaguar and you were at the Fountain of the World in Box Canyon. Do you recall that?

A: Yes.

Q: Who was at the Fountain of the World?

A: Charlie Manson and about six of his girls. I believe, and then the people that lived at the Fountain of the World.

Q: What was the Fountain of the World?

A: I am really not for sure what it is. I believe it is some church organization or something like that but don't really know that much about it at all.

Q: All right.

Where was Manson and the girls? Where were they living when you got up there?

A: Charlie had a school bus and it was parked on top of a hill right by the Fountain and they were working around the Fountain, I believe, and eating and joining in with the group there or something like that.

Q: You had met Manson prior to this date, had you not?

A: Yes; at Dennis Wilson's house.

Q: How about the girls that were there with Manson? Had you met all of them before?

A: No, I hadn't.

Q: Do you remember who the girls were in the bus at the Fountain of the World?

A: I remember two of them. One was Sandy and a girl by the name of Bo.

Q: Now, did anything occur while you were with Dean Moorehouse at the bus?

A: No. About the only thing I remember is a ride over the hill to the ranch and I remember meeting --

Q: Wait. When you got to the bus, did Dean get out and stay there?

A: Yes, he did, uh-huh.

Q: Did you leave?

A: After being there a little Charlie asked Dean to borrow the black car.

Q: You mean Charlie Manson?

A: Yes, asked Dean.

Q: Did Manson borrow the car?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you go with Manson?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Where did you go with him?

A: We went over to Spahn's Ranch.

Q: Did Manson tell you why he wanted you to go with him?

A: Well, he said that he wanted to get me away from the girls because I was talking about the wrong things, or something. I had too much ego he said and I was talking about I guess, my past or what was -- you know, I was talking too about things, I guess.

Q: Too much about the past?

A: Too much about what I had in my head, I guess, what I was talking about, you know.

Q: Did you talk to any of the girls at the bus?

A: I remember talking to one about Mexico or something, you know, something about Mexico, I believe, you know. He didn't want me talking about things outside of the family, you know, so he took me away from the girls and we went over to the ranch.

Q: How long did you stay at the ranch?

A: Not very long.

Q: Can you give us any idea of the distance between Fountain of the World and Spahn. Ranch?

A: Probably about five miles.

Q: Who drove the car?

A: Charlie did.

Q: Charlie Manson?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember who you met, if anybody, at all at the Spahn Ranch?

A: I remember seeing some of the girls, you know, running around the ranch. I met Juan Flynn, I believe that is the name, met him, and I remember seeing my truck that I had given them.

Q: Do you remember seeing what? I'm sorry. What?

A: My '35 truck that I gave Charlie.

Q: The '35 Dodge?

A: Yes. It was parked there at the ranch and that is about all I remember happening then, you know.

Q: Did you do anything at all at the. ranch that day?

A: No, just drove over there and back.

Q: How long did you stay?

A: I'd say probably around an hour, I guess; 30 minutes or an hour, not too long at all.

Q: Then you drove back up to the Fountain of the World, did you?

A: That's right.

Q: Did Manson drive?

A: Yes.

Q: Was Dean Moorehouse there when you got back?

A: Yes, he was.

Q: What happened so far as you and Dean Moorehouse are concerned, then, after you got back?

A: Then we took out up north.

Q: Where did you go?

A: To a town the other side of San Francisco.

Q: Is that where Dean Moorehouse had a trial going?

A: Yes, that's correct.

Q: Did you drive directly to that city?

A: Well, we was on the road to the city all the time but we stopped, I believe, a couple times along the beach, and that about all.

Q: Would you recognize the name of the city if you heard it?

A: Probably would, yeah.

Q: Were you going to Ukiah?

A: Yeah, Ukiah, that's the name of it.

Q: Up in Mendicino?

A: Mendicino, yeah, that was close by, I believe.

Q: Did you spend any nights on the road after leaving the Fountain of the World and before arriving at Ukiah?

A: I believe we drove all afternoon and drove all night.

Q: How long did you stay in Ukiah, if you remember?

A: I'd say a week or two.

Q: Incidentally, did you use any drugs on your way up to Ukiah?

A: I believe when we stopped along the beach a couple of times we met some guys one time that gave us some marijuana and we had a few marijuana cigarettes, and that's about all on the way up.

Q: Did Dean Moorehouse talk while you drove up north?

A: Yes, that was his thing, kind of; he would continuously kind of preach, you know.

Q: What did he talk about on the way up north?

A: The same thing, you know, person losing their ego and losing their thought, and this way you'd have more love, you know, to give.

Q: Had you formed any attachment or feelings for Dean Moorehouse by this time?

A: Yeah, Dean and I were pretty close.

Q: What did you think of him as, if you did?

A: He was just a close friend, I'd say.

Q: Had you formed any opinion about Mr. Manson by this time?

A: No, just like that's what Dean was always talking about, was Manson; and the way Manson had brought him to thinking like this, always talking about Manson's philosophy as well as his.

Q: Well, did Dean refer to Manson as anything in particular?

A: Not that I can recall.

Q: Was Manson ever referred to as Jesuit Christ?

A: Yes, he was referred to that when I got back and started living with the family, I knew him as that.

Q: Did Dean Moorehouse ever refer to him as Christ?

A: I'm not for sure; I know that Dean was always talking about Christ and seems like the two had so much together, you know, by him talking about Christ and by him talking about Manson at the same time, that it just kind of became that Manson was Christ.

Q: Do you remember where you stayed in Ukiah when you finally got there, Charles?

A: At a friend's, a friend of Dean Moorehouse's; and a friend of the family's, too, I believe.

Q: Now, you think you stayed up north a week or two?

A: Yes, right.

Q: And you were using Terry Melcher's credit card, were you?

A: Yes, gasoline and stuff.

Q: Did you use any drugs while you were up north with Dean?

A: I believe at the house we stayed at we smoked marijuana a couple times or so.

Q: And when Dean's matter was over up north, did you come back with him?

A: Yes, we did.

Q: Did you drive back in a car?

A: Yes, same car.

Q: And do you remember stopping in San Francisco on your way back?

A: Yes, we did stop in San Francisco.

Q: Did anything happen in San Francisco?

A: We stopped at a friend of Dean's, and the guy gave him some LSD. It was yellow, I remember, bright yellow LSD.

Q: What happened to that?

A: We took a couple of trips together and then we gave the rest to Charlie when we moved in with Charlie.

Q: Do you remember how much acid you got from this fellow up in San Francisco?

A: I don't recall.

Q: Do you remember how many of them you used?

A: A couple.

Q: And how about Dean?

A: I only saw him use a couple, you know, when we took them together.

Q: Do you remember how many trips you took on acid?

A: Altogether?

Q: Yes -- no, no; in San Francisco.

A: A couple, I believe.

Q: Do you know, Charles, what the normal dose, if there is a normal dose, for LSD is?

MR. BUGLIOSI: Calls for a conclusion, your Honor,

THE COURT: Well, suppose you confine it to him.

THE WITNESS: All I know is I have taken -- this is what I was told, anyway, that some of them were 500's and some of them were 2,000's.

Q BY MR. BUBRICK: 500 what, if you know?.

A: I don't know -- little measurements, I guess. I don't know what they were.

Q: Which of the two is the largest?

A: The 2,000.

Q: Were these drugs that you got by prescription?

A: No, no prescription ever.

Q: You don't know who made them, do you?

A: At first when I was out back to the ranch --

Q: No; we are talking about the drugs you got up there in San Francisco.

A: Oh, in San Francisco.

Q: Yes.

A: Well, I wasn't talking about 500 and 2,000 then.

Q: All right. Maybe I confused you.

Do you know the size of the tablets that you took in San Francisco?

A: I know the guy gave Dean a bag of yellow powder and then some individual caps that stuck together.

THE COURT: You mean gelatin capsules?


Q BY MR. BUBRICK: Do you remember which of the two you took? The bulk powder or the capsules?

A: I took after it had been put in the capsules.

Q: I take it you know where that came from.

A: It came from a friend of Dean's.

Q: It had no labels on it or anything of that nature?

A: No, none at all.

Q: After you left San Francisco on these trips that you have talked about, did you come directly back to the Los Angeles area?

A: Yes, we did.

Q: And where did you so when you arrived in the Los Angeles area?

A: We saw Charlie riding around one motorcycle and he led us up to a place where Dennis Wilson had moved, not the old place, but a new place on the in Malibu.

Q: Now, can you fix the time of the month for us, Charlie?

A: l believe that was around in September.

Q: 1960

A: '68.

Q: Did you go to Dennis Wilson's beach house then?

A: Yes, we did.

Q: Did you still have Terry Melcher's car?

A: Yes we did.

Q: And was Dean still driving that?

A: Yes.

Q: What happened, if anything, at the beach house?

A: I remember we drove the car up there and spent one night at Dennis' place there and then Dennis suggested that -- I think he was kind of mad at Dean or something because of something that happened in the old house, something with Dean and one of the girls in the old house, I believe, and so Dean really didn't want to stay with him and he suggested we go out and stay with Manson out at the ranch.

Q: Did you do that?

A: Yes, we did.

Q: When, if you remember?

A: Sometime still in September there, about a day or two after we got back from up north.

Q: Did you go out to the Spahn Ranch?

A: Yes, we.

Q: Did you still have the car?

A: No. We left it at Dennis' house. We were told to leave it at Dennis' house and that Terry would pick it up.

Q: Is that the last you saw of that particular car at that time?

A: Yes.

Q: How did you get over to the ranch, if you remember

A: I believe we hitch-hiked.

Q: Did you have anything with you other than what you were wearing?

A: No, that was all.

Q: Do you remember how you were dressed?

A: No, I don't.

Q: When you got to the ranch, what happened on your first day, on the day of your arrival?

A: I know Charlie was living in a tent and some of the girls and people were living up at the ranch part and Charlie moved out of the tent and told Dean and l that we could live in the tent.

Q: Where was the tent with respect to the main structures on the ranch?

A: The tent was between the farm have and the main branch part up a creek a ways.

Q: I think we have seen some pictures of the ranch that was identified as a kitchen, the part that you ate in, as a kitchen or the saloon.

A: Yes. It was about half a mile from there.

Q: Did you and Dean then live in the tent?

A: For a couple of weeks.

Q: What, if anything, were you doing on the ranch while you lived there at this time?

A: Charlie was coming around us all the time and started talking to us and he would bring his guitar up to the tent and bring some girls with him and he would sit around and play music and I knew he had marijuana. We smoked marijuana and somewhere in that period right there we started taking acid.

Q: Well, were your acid ingestions, that is the taking of acid, something that you did alone or while as a member of the group?

A: It was always as a member of the group or when Charlie would give it to me by myself or something.

Q: Did you do anything else while you and Dean were in the tent?

A: Yes, he, Charlie, asked me to build a house for him.

Q: Did you do that?

A: I built a house for him.

Q: What sort of house did you build?

A: It was just a house, you know, just a little house called the "in case house."

Q: Like in case you have to go somewhere?

A: In case that was the only place to go.

Q: Do you remember when you built this house, Charles?

A: It was still right there, started on it I know when I was living in the tent, in that first two-week period, and I built on it until December.

Q: You worked on it that long?

A: Uh-huh, all the time I was there the first time.

Q: Now, you started to tell us about Manson coming to the tent with his guitar and the girls; is that correct?

A: That's right.

Q: And was there some singing that was done at the time?

A: Yes, a lot of singing then, at that time.

Q: Was there any preaching being done at the time?

A: Well, this is kind of how Manson would, I guess you could say, preach. This is how he would put his message over to you; and this is how, also, he could look at a person and be able to tell you what you are thinking about, you know, and then you would see that he could tell you what you were thinking about and it would kind of have a big effect on your mind when you didn't even tell him what you were thinking about, and this is what he would sing in his songs; and you'd be listening to him and you could hear your thoughts coming out in his songs.

Q: Well, when he sang, was there any response from the listeners?

A: Yes, at that time the girls would all sing with him and, like Dean and I was new and we was just kind of sitting there watching; and that's about it.

Q: Was any acid being used or any other drugs being used at this time?

A: That's when we first started taking, that I started taking acid, I guess, real heavily there at the tent and also in the back ranchhouse we lived in.

Q: Did you, aside from working on the building, was there anything else that you did at the ranch?

A: I was the mechanic, too. When George, the old man --

Q: Mr. Spahn?

A: Yes, he lived at the ranch -- he would tell Charlie what he wanted done and Charlie would come and tell me what to work on that day.

Q: How frequently would you have these singing sessions --

A: Every night.

Q: -- or music sessions?

A: Every night and sometimes in the afternoon and night; sometimes all day and sometimes in the morning, just any time everybody got together.

Q: Who decided when everybody got together?

A: Charlie.

Q: Manson?

A: Manson.

Q: And who led these singing sessions?

A: Charlie.

Q: Did anybody other than Charlie Manson do any singing or chanting?

A: No, just when the group kind of sung together, you know.

Q: And aside from singing and chanting, did he ever discuss philosophy with the group?

A: Yes, this was done every night, too.

Q: What would he tell you, if you remember? Well, during this first period I was there I know he was always talking about bringing out your inhibitions, I believe; you bring out all the stuff that -- especially on acid, he would -- we'd all be on acid or something and he would throw all your faults up in front of you, and that's the way he'd pull them out of you. He'd pull the thoughts out of your head and that wouldn't be there any more.

Q: Is this the reaction you got to Mr. Manson?

A: Yes.

Q: How often would you use acid while you were at the ranch during this period of time?

A: Anywhere from one, two or three times a week , I'd say.

Q: And who supplied it when you used it?

A: Most of the time when it came, the girls -- like Charlie used to say that they were the power, you know, the power to get new guys and power to run the whole thing. He used to say they had all the power and they would be out hitchhiking and they'd bring home a new guy or something, and pretty soon he'd be coming back with acid and this is kind of how acid came into the ranch, is by people just bringing it, you know.

Q: Well, when you first started to live at the ranch, were there any drugs other than acid which were available?

A: All different kinds of drugs: Acid, mescaline, psilocybin, and the THC, and STP, stuff like that; all psychedelic drugs, I guess you'd say.

Q: Were the drugs that you have just enumerated drugs that Manson usually kept under his control?

A: Yes, it would always be in a Baggie and it would be under his control or the girls' control, and the girls' control and his control was the same control. so he would just ask one of the girls to go and put the acid away and then when he wanted it, he'd ask the girls to bring it to him.

Q: Could a person who wanted acid just go over and take some on their own, without permission from Mr. Manson?

A: Nobody ever knew where the Baggie was. It was under his control all the time.

THE COURT: Do you know what a stash is?

A: Yeah, that's what it was; it was a stash.

Q: Do you know what speed is, Charles?

A: Yes.

Q: What is it?

A: It is a white powder that gets you to speeding.

Q: Were you using speed at this time?

A: Not at that time, No.

Q: What feelings, if any, did you develop about Manson during the period of time that you were talking about, between September through December, or while you were working on the house?

A: It was just -- I looked on him as kind of a supreme being, I guess you'd say, like I said before, that could see all my thoughts that were in my head; and the longer I was around him, the more of these thoughts I didn't have anymore.

Q: Were you staying in touch with your family during this time?

THE COURT: That is your own family, not Manson.

MR. BUBRICK: Yes. Your own family, your mother and father?

A: Not during that time, no.

Q: Were you aware of the fact that you were changing in some respect?

A: I was aware of it, but I was losing -- losing from what I had, it was going out of me, and that's why I left in December.

Q: What did you feel you were losing when you left in December?

A: I was losing my -- myself, my individual thinking, like I was becoming Charles Manson and I was becoming the girls. I remember we could look into each other's face and it would be the same face; my face would be Manson's and the girls' faces would be Manson's, and just have one face.

Q: Was this something that Manson preached?

A: Yes.

Q: Did it go by any particular name?

A: Not that I can recall right now.

Q: Did you talk about oneness?

A: Yes. That is what it was, yes. It wasn't really a name. That is just what it was, it was all being the same person.

Q: Did you ever hear of helter skelter at any time while you were with the family?

A: Yes, later on.

Q: Later on. That is what I want to get.

Did you ever hear during this period between September and December what you later on knew was helter skelter?

A: No. It was just all kind of a love thing up until this time and it was just -- I know his philosophy was you have to get rid of all of your thoughts before you could love.

Q: Did you ever discuss with Manson this thing that you refer to as love? Was it some physical or psychological or mental thing?

A: It was all of them. It was all of them; Mental and spiritual and physical and every way, you know, just one big love.

Q: This is what Manson told you about love?

A: Yes.

Q: Could one do just what he wanted to do while living with the family during this period?

A: Well, you had to do what everybody else was doing. I mean you could always leave but there just wasn't any way of leaving, it seemed like. It seemed like it was just a magnetic pull between Manson and everybody there and anybody that would get around the people too, they would just kind of be sucked in right with it.

Q: Do you have any idea of how many people were living in the family about this time, Charlie?

A: Probably around 30 then.

Q: And how did they break down in terms of male and female?

A: Probably about six or seven males and the rest were females.

Q: Do you know Paul Watkins?

A: Yes.

Q: Brooks Poston?

A: Yes.

Q: Were they at the ranch at this time?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember who else was there among the fellows?

A: Steve Grogan and a guy by the name of T.J. and another guy that was real close to Paul but I can't remember his name. That is about all I recall.

Q: Can you give us any idea, Charles, of the number of times you might have used LSD in this period between September and December that you are referring to?

A: I have no idea really. I know it was -- like I say -- one, two, three times a week and maybe more than that some weeks.

Q: And then you have enumerated other drugs that you used; is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: And would you use those drugs in conjunction, among with LSD, or independent of the LSD?

A: Oh, we would be sitting around in a circle-like when Charlie would get us together and then he would come around with the baggie and say, "This is what you need," you know, "You take this, this, and this," and then he would go to the next person and give them this, and this and that is the way he would do it.

Q: He would determine the type of drug and the quantity that you got; was that correct?

A: Yes, that is correct.

Q: Did Manson himself use much by way of drugs?

A: I never did see him take a lot of drugs but I always thought he was on drugs, you know, a lot of times.

Q: Was he talking about right and wrong at this time?

A: Well, that is what was coming out like if you would take your thoughts away everything would become perfect. There was no wrong. Everything was right.

Q: How about good and bad? Did he talk about that?

A: There wasn't any bad. Everything was good.

Q: How about death?

A: He would always say you had to die, you know, and at first I didn't know what he was talking about, whether he was talking about mentally or physically or how he was talking about because I never had heard of dying in this way, you know, but I came to find out he was talking about, to me anyway, he was talking about mental death.

Q: What was your major in college? What were you trying to do in college?

A: I was a business major.

Q: Take any courses in philosophy?

A: No. I had one course, that is all, a beginning course. I believe just something you had to take for a business major.

Q: Were you much concerned with philosophy in college?

A: No, I really didn't even know what it was.

Q: Did you have any idea of philosophy when you joined the family?

A: Did I have any philosophy?

Q: Yes.

A: No, I had nothing.

Q: Was the doctrine preached by Moorehouse similar to what Manson was telling you?

A: Yes, it was the same because Charlie had got Moorehouse onto acid, and onto this same thing.

Q: Was Moorehouse living at the ranch during this period between September and December?

A: He left after about two weeks when he moved out of the tent. He went on down the road.

Q: When was that, if you can tell us?

A: I really don't know. I just know it was about two weeks after we got there. It was around September of '68.

Q: Did Moorehouse tell you why he was leaving?

A: Well, I know that Charlie -- I heard something to the effect that Charlie didn't want older men around the ranch.

Q: Did you ever see Dean around the ranch after he left on this occasion?

A: I believe only one time.

Q: When was that?

A: I don't know if it was before or after. I don't know.

Q: Now, you have used the December date as a frame of reference about working on the house and in leaving.

What happened in December?

A: I had to take an Army physical the first part of December there, so I was at a telephone, I remember, at a friend's house, at a friend of the family's house, in Topanga Canyon and I called up Dave and this is when I called Dave and told him that I was kind of losing myself.

Q: Dave Neale?

A: Yes; and this is when I asked if I could come and stay with him.

Q: Did you leave?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Do you remember where Dave was living at this time?

A: He was living in the Pasadena like area.

Q: With whom?

A: With his brother.

Q: Jay?

A: Yes, that is correct.

Q: Did you move in with them?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Incidentally, was it difficult to leave the ranch?

A: Yes, it was. Like I --

Q: No, I don't mean, you know, psychologically. I mean was it difficult to just walk off the property, physically, just move, walk away from it?

A: Well, we had been up north on -- Charlie had sent us up north to see a man called the Candy Man and going to bring back some candy. So we went up north and Charlie wasn't with us then you know, like he had told us to go up there and see about the candy and so a couple of guys and I and some of the girls went up north in a school bus. When we got back down from north this is when I called Dave.

Q: Did you call him from the area of the ranch?

A: No, I called him from the beach area around Topanga Canyon.

Q: Then you never went back to the ranch, is that correct?

A: I did on one occasion.

Q: No, I mean coming back from this northern trip that you have told us about.

A: I went to live at Dave's; then something drew me back to Manson. Then I went back to Dave's again.

Q: But when you called Dave in the latter part of November or early December, you went out and stayed with him in Pasadena, is that correct?

A: Right.

Q: How long did you stay with him then?

A: I stayed with him until he went into the Army.

Q: When was that, if you remember?

A: Somewhere the first of December.

Q: And after he was gone did you continue to live with Jay?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Same apartment in Pasadena?

A: Yes.

Q: How long did you stay?

A: On and off, I'd say about a month and a half.

Q: Did you eventually get back to the family; that is, to Manson and the ranch?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: How did this happen?

A: Well, that was about -- I called him up one day and said -- I just called up the ranch, you know, and --

Q: Do you know why?

A: Well, like I said, there was kind of a power that was just - pulling me back, a magnetic thing between my mind and their mind that just pulled me back, I don't know why.

Q: All right, you called Manson on the phone?

A: I called the ranch on the phone.

Q: Okay.

A: Manson convinced me to come back out and just see them, you know, just see them.

Q: Did you do that?

A: Yes, I went out.

Q: And when was this?

A: That was about some time in February.

Q: 1969?

A: Yes, February or March, somewhere like that.

Q: Did you go back out to the ranch then?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Did you stay then?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Where did you live on the ranch, or where did you move into when you got back to the ranch?

A: We were just staying all over the ranch, kind of, all over the ranch part there.

Q: Do you have any idea how many people were at the ranch when you got back in February or March?

A: I'd say around 30, again.

Q: And how many men, if you remember?

A: There were a few more men then.

Q: And what did you do if anything? What was your work assignment?

A: Well, at that time he had started a club, a little club or something there at the ranch, and also Charlie had got a couple of dune buggies; and so he kind of got me to working on the dune buggies.

Q: Did he still preach or philosophize with you?

A: It was the same, except he had a different kind -- his philosophy had changed.

Q: What was he talking about now?

A: Now, he was talking about the Beatles all the time and Helter-skelter and the revolution coming down, and singing about it and talking about the end of the world coming and about the bottomless pit out on the desert, and all of these songs that the Beatles had, someway, he was bringing all them out, too, to back his philosophy, I guess you'd call it.

Q: Had you ever listened to the Beatles' music prior to this time?

A: Yes, on a few occasions, yes.

Q: Were they played at the ranch?

A: Yes, in the saloon where the club was.

Q: Had they been played when you were first there between September and December?

A: Not those records, no.

Q: Was there much talk about the Beatles when you were first there between September and December?

A: No, none at all.

Q: Then, how regularly would this helter-skelter philosophy of his be talked about

A: Every night and all day long.

Q: Were drugs being used at the same time?

A: Yes, a lot of real heavy physical and mental acid, you know.

Q: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that,.

A: A lot of heavy physical acid and mental acid, too.

Q: What was mental acid?

A: Well, that's the kind that would -- well, both of it did the same, except one of it drew your body, drew stuff out of your mind; and the other at the same time would be drawing your body.

Q: Did you ever use belladonna while you were at the ranch, Charles?

A: Yes, I used it in April of '69.

Q: Do you remember how you first got it?

A: Paul Watkins got some from around the ranch there and Brenda cooked it up

Q: What form was it in when you used it?

A: A root form.

Q: Had you ever seen anybody eating it in root form?

A: No, I hadn't. I never had seen it before.

Q: Did you know what belladonna was used for?

A: No, I didn't even know it would have any effect on you, I had never even heard of it before this.

Q: What happened when you took it?

A: I took it on the ranch and I started hitchhiking down to this motorcycle shop and by the time I got down there I was crawling on the ground.

Q: Do you remember anything else that happened on that occasion?

A: Yeah, I remember having cotton mouth so bad that I couldn't speak there at first; and then I got this little scooter thing out, a little hill climber, hill climber motorcycle out of the shop, and started toward the ranch with it and I blacked out going down.

Q: Where were you when you came to?

A: I was in the back seat of somebody's car

Q: Do you remember anything else about that experience?

A: The police were shaking me and waking me up.

Q: Did they take you off to jail?

A: They carried me off, one of them had me under both sides of my arm and they were dragging me.

Q: Did anything happen to you in jail that you remember?

A: I had a fight

Q: Do you know why?

A: Three guys jumped on me and they said I was crazy, and I was insane; that's why they beat me up.

Q: Did you get any injury in that fight?

A: I cut -- they cut my eye; one of them cut up my eye pretty bad. I had to have it sewed up.

Q: Do you remember what jail you were in when this occurred?

A: I found out later it was Van Nuys.

Q: And do you remember what month this was?

A: April, I believe.

Q: Do you have any idea what the belladonna that was being brewed up by Paul Watkins and Brenda was to be used for?

A: I know after that I heard that Charlie kept talking about putting it in the water tanks of this city.

Q: Was that in connection with helter-skelter, if you know?

A: Something in that -- something to do with it.

Q: Did Manson say anything more about helter-skelter during this period of time?

A: That's all that was talked about during this whole period of time, during the whole period of time it was helter-skelter; and like the more acid we took, the more helter-skelter it would be.

Q: Well, did he say when it was going to start?

A: Any second.

Q: Is that what he would say?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: Did he tell you what the dune buggies were to be used for?

A: Yeah, after helter-skelter came down, that's how we'd get out of the city.

Q: Did you believe in helter-skelter?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Did you believe in revolution?

A: Very much so.

Q: How about the bottomless pit?

A: Yes.

Q: Was there any portion of the Manson philosophy that you disagreed with?

A: No, I agreed with it all.

Q: Did he tell you what you would have to do during helter-skelter

A: No, it was just that I remember we were the only ones that were going to be saved, because we didn't have any fear.

Q: Was fear a big thing with Manson?

A: Yes, it was.

Q: Did he talk about it a lot?

A: All the time. This is what the acid would do, and plus Manson's philosophy

Q: What did he say about fear?

A: He said that we had already experienced -- we were experiencing now all the fear that you could have, and that he would take us on wild dune buggy trips and wild car trips while we were on acid; and the acid and his philosophy and him scaring us all, with the animals and stuff, would pull out all our fear until we had no fear at all; and then he'd talk about the people down in the city, how they were afraid to die and that we had already experienced death and that we were experiencing death at the time, and pretty soon we were dead mentally.

Q: Were there any demonstrations by Manson during these sessions where death was talked about?

A: He would always make out like he had – somebody was sitting in a chair on the other side of the room, and some person that had a lot of fear, like one of the persons down the hill or something, and he would pretend like -- like we were just sitting there with no fear and we could just see the fear in this imaginary person that was sitting there, and he would be talking to them and telling them how not to be so scared or anything and don't worry and everything would be alright, all he wanted was for you to sign all their possessions to him and after they'd do this he'd just scare them to death.

Q: Did he use animals in demonstrating fear?

A: Yes. He would bring animals into the room and he would take an animal, like a cat, for instance, and he would start throwing it up in the air and squeezing it and pulling on it and the cat was crying at first, I remember, and then when he got through with it, the cat didn't even -- never would make a noise again and it was still walking around alive.

Q: Did he give the cat any drugs or anything of that nature, if you know

A: No, no drugs at all. He would do us the same way. He would take us into his arms, on acid trips, and he called it the movement or the flow, or something and he would take all our stiffness out of our body, until we would just float right with him.

Q: How would he do that?

A: I don't know how he would do it. He just put his arms around you and take you and caress you and start moving you in all different directions and taking all of your fear out of you and all you are and the rest that you had in you out of you, until there wasn't anything, until you and him were one body.

Q: You would move when he moved?

A: It was the same movement, the same body. There was no push or there was no pull.

Q: If you would lift your arm up, it would just drop down immediately?

A: Yes, because he would take it and he could move you in any direction you wanted to move.

Q: And you didn't resist; is that correct?

A: There was no push or no pull, no resistance, just like one, being one body.

Q: I think you told us you started to use -- you used belladonna for the first time in April of '69; is that correct?

A: That is correct.

Q: Did you use it again while you were at the ranch?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: How often would you use it?

A: Not very often. About once a month or a little over.

Q: What effect would it have on you when you use it?

A: About the same effect all the time.

Q: What was that?

A: Well, the blackout and then waking up and having hallucinations and being completely away from reality and talking to space people that would come down out of the sky and you could see their space ships.

Q: Did you ever do that? Talk to space people?

A: Yes, uh-huh.

Q: Where, do you remember?

A: Well, several times out at the ranch and one time in jail the first time.

Q: Was that what led to the fight in jail?

A: That was some of the things because I was making strange noises back at the space people.

Q: How long would a trip on belladonna last?

A: It would depend on if you got woken up. If somebody woke you up, you would start having a lot of hallucinations. I know it took about 18 hours before you could walk around on your own with it and then if you took speed with it then you could move around.

Q: Did you ever take belladonna and speed at the same time?

A: Yes. That was one of the things to take belladonna and then when you woke up to get your energy going and to -- you would have a lot of energy from the belladonna and the belladonna would give you so much energy that after you woke up, it would give you so much energy that you just wouldn't know what to do. You would be bright red, kind of red, and your whole body would be dehydrated to where you wouldn't be anything but muscles and bones.

Q: When you say the body was bright red, did you actually turn red or did you imagine that you were red?

A: Well, I looked red from my eyes. I don't know how I looked to other people.

Q: Did you ever look at yourself in the mirror under belladonna?

A: No, not that I can recall.

Q: I think you told us that when you were there, when you were at the ranch between September and December, you used LSD and no speed; is that correct

A: Used what?

Q: You didn't use any speed between September and December of 1968?

A: That is correct.

Q: When you got back in this period you are talking about, February or March of 1969, was speed available at the ranch?

A: It started being available in a little tablet, Charlie used to give it to us all the time, all the guys and some of the girls too, to be able to stay up and work on the dune buggies.

Q: Do you remember what the tablets looked like?

A: It was a round tablet with a cross in it and then we run out of those and then he had a baggie, a white powder that was methedrine.

Q: How would you use methedrine?

A: Sniff it.

Q: Who kept that supply? That is methedrine.

A: The girls would keep all of the supplies.

Q: Did you ever have any of your own?

A: I knew where the speed was but I didn't take any unless Charlie or the girls would bring it to me to take to work on the dune buggies.

Q: Is that what you were doing primarily during this period of time? Working on dune buggies?

A: Yes, working on dune buggies. Eventually I got so high and out of control on speed that I didn't work on any dune buggies any more that much.

Q: What did the girls do in this period of time?

A: The girls, I know the girls that were around me so I could work on the dune buggies more. They would go after screw drivers and parts and wash parts off to help me out so I wouldn't have to do that.

Q: Were there other chores being performed by the girls?

A: They would cook and do the things that girls did on dune buggies.

Q: What did the girls do on dune buggies?

A: They put a lot of fur on Charlie's dune buggy.

Q: How about garbage runs? Were there any things like that going on?

A: Yes. They went on garbage runs everyday.

Q: What was the purpose of that?

A: To go behind grocery stores and get the vegetables and fruits and anything that they could find to eat.

Q: Is that what you lived on at the ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: What did that mean?

A: That meant to, that is another way Charlie would take the fear out of you. He would take you out at night and just walk up and down the beach and get close to people's houses and stuff, you know, to experience the fear of being around things.

Q: Did you ever go into a house and take anything while you were with Manson?

A: No. I did not.

Q: Did the girls do that, if you know?

A: I don't know.

Q: Were there credit cards around the ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you know where they came from?

A: I know the girls on two or three times I can remember, the girls went out and got credit cards. I remember one time or two times they were hitch-hiking and the guy would take them home with him and they would end up leaving with his credit cards.

Q: Then would you use them around the ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: Were all the girls around the ranch pretty much of the same order; that is, would they all do pretty much the same thing?

A: Pretty much the same thing.

Q: Was there any one girl who seemed to be a little closer to Manson than anybody else?

A: Brenda, seemed like she was always pretty close to Manson.

Q: Anybody else that you can think of that was close to Manson?

A: I don't know -- all of them was, they were all, you know, his girls. You know, that was understood, that they were his, you know.

Q: Well, was there any one girl that gave any more orders than any other girl, if any of them did?

MR. KAY: Well, that assumes a fact not in evidence, that any of them gave orders.

MR. BUBRICK: I said if any of them did, in his presence.

THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.

THE WITNESS: What is the question, again?

MR. BUBRICK: Would you read it back, please Mr. Reporter?

(Record read.)

A: I don't say any orders were given to any girls it would have been from -- by any girls, it would have been from Brenda or Squeaky or Sadie.

MR. BUBRICK: Were they the oldest members of the family, as far as you know?

A: Yes, nearly all of the girls were -- was all members older than me, had been there a lot longer than I had.

Q: What sort of a person was Sadie?

A: Her and Charlie were always -- Charlie was – her and Charlie was always kind of having trouble together because she would kind of tell people what to do. She was kind of an authoritative like girl.

Q: Did Charlie disapprove of that?

A: Yes, he did.

Q: And how did he demonstrate that disapproval?

A: He'd beat her up in front of everybody.

Q: Did you see him do that to any of the other girls?

A: I saw him beat on some of the other girls, yes.

Q: About the same time?

A: Well, through the periods I was there, all the time, I guess.

Q: Did you ever meet Linda Kasabian?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Do you remember when?

A: Around July '69.

Q: Do you remember when you first met her?

A: Her and Gypsy were walking up to the ranch one afternoon and I was out standing on the grounds of the ranch and they came walking up to me.

Q: Were you introduced to her?

A: Yes, her and her little girl.

Q: Did Linda have a baby with her?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you talk with her for some while?

A: No, they just kind of passed by me -- was introduced to her, and then they went on about their business, you know.

Q: Did you see her anymore that first day?

A: Yes, I was standing at the end of the boardwalk and she came walking up.

Q: Did she still have the baby with her?

A: No, she didn't.

Q: About what time of the day or night was it when you met her this way?

A: I know it was --the sun was still up.

Q: I take it you didn't have watches out there, is that right?

A: No watches or nothing like that.

Q: What happened between you and Linda?

A: I know I put my arms around her and we went into a back shack and made love.

Q: How long did that take?

A: I don't have any idea. I know that some girl came and got us because it was time to eat, time for everybody to eat and Charlie was getting everybody together, you know, to eat.

Q: Where did you eat on that occasion, if you remember?

A: I don't remember.

Q: Did you talk with Linda at all that evening?

A: Yes I did.

Q: What did you talk about, if you remember?

A: Well, she was interested in the family.

Q: What did she ask you?

A: I remember the main question she asked me was how did we live and how did we get our money, things like that; just how we got along, you know.

Q: Did you tell her?

A: Yeah, I told her that everybody who came to the ranch gave up all their money and possessions and everything.

Q: Do you know of your own knowledge whether Linda ever brought money back to the ranch?

A: Yes, about $5,000.

Q: Did you send her for it?

A: No, I did not.

Q: Did you tell her to get it?

A: No, I did not.

Q: Were you around when she brought it?

A: I saw it, but I didn't -- I saw the money there but I wasn't around when she came back with it.

Q: Do you know who she gave it to?

A: No, I do not.

Q: It wasn't to you, was it?

A: No, it was not.

Q: Do you remember what you continued to do during the month of July around the ranch?

A: I know I was taking a lot of speed then.

Q: Anything else?

A: Yes.

Q: Any other kind of drug?


Q: Was Paul Watkins and Brooks Poston still there?

A: No, sir, they were not.

Q: When did they leave?

A: I believe they left in May.

Q: Do you recall, Charles, whether drugs became more or less frequent after Brooks and Paul left?

A: A lot more.

Q: About how many men were left after Brooks and Paul left?

A: About three, I guess, or four of the ones that had been there for a while.

Q: You were there and who else was there with you?

A: Steve Grogan and Bruce Davis.

Q: How did Manson and Bruce get along?

A: Bruce was always real loud, loud talking, and he was just running around kind of trying to be Charlie all the time and putting out -- all he would do is just go around preaching Charlie's philosophy all the time, you know. He was trying to be Charlie.

Q: How about Steve?

A: Everybody was, you know, preaching his philosophy except Steve didn't have the -- you know, he was real quiet. He didn't have that kind of thing.

THE COURT: Would this be a good time to have our afternoon recess?

MR. BUBRICK: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will have our afternoon recess at this time. Once more again please heed the admonition heretofore given.


THE COURT: People against Watson.

MR. BUBRICK: Mr. Watson, I think you told us before the break that in the period of time between the leaving of Paul Watkins and Brooks Poston and this July period that we are talking about, you increased your LSD; is that correct?

A: Correct.

Q: What effect was the LSD having on you, if any at all?

A: Well, the LSD, this drew up fear. The LSD made me more aware, hearing and seeing and taste and smell, just all your senses became more aware; and you became so aware that you were living in fear and getting so used to living in fear, with all the awareness of things around you you were more like an animal; and until I experienced so much fear that there wasn't any fear any more.

Q: The end result was that you became fearless; is that correct?

A: Correct.

Q: Did Manson talk about fear a great deal?

A: Yes.

Q: Was that part of his philosophy?

A: Yes, continuously, that part of it; and the acid, too, then and Manson.

Q: How about the subject of killing? Was that brought up by Manson?

A: There was no wrong. Everything was perfect. It was perfection, the flow and the oneness, and there was no mistake. Manson was a perfect being, to me more like Christ and we were totally him then.

Q: Did you ever doubt or dispute anything he told you?

A: No, none at all. Everything was perfect.

Q: Did he make any particular comments about killing?

A: Yes, everything was perfect. There wasn't nothing that was wrong. There was no thought of any wrong at all. There was no thought in our heads. All the thought was gone.

Q: Did he use the word "Pig"?

A: Not that much but he always talked about the people, the people down the hill and how much fear they had and how we had already experienced all the fear there was, and had no thought any more, and that all of those people down there were dead already because they had so much fear, and there was no way for them to escape helter-skelter when it came down.

Q: Was he talking more about helter-skelter during this period?

A: Yes. The helter-skelter, of confusion of all the people would be in when it did come down, the fear that they would have. They would just be running into each other in cars, trying to get away from all the fears that they hadn't experienced yet and we didn't have any fear. That is why we were going to get away.

Q: I take it you remember the day of August 9, 1969?

A: Yes.

MR. BUBRICK: August the 8th, August the 8th running into the 9th. Do you remember August the 8th?

A: Yes, the morning. I remember all that night before on the 8th. I was up all night on speed and I ended up at the waterfall. Where Charlie and the girls and I believe some babies were over there, a couple of babies that at the ranch, and the younger people were at the waterfall and there was belladonna hanging around that they had pulled up all around the waterfall and I took some belladonna that morning .

Q: The root form?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember how big a piece you took?

A: About the size I always took, about an inch or three-quarters of an inch long and about that big around or so --

THE COURT: An inch in diameter?

A: About an inch; three quarters of an inch or an inch, something like that, not a large piece.

MR. BUBRICK: That was in the area of the waterfall?

A: Yes, that was at the camp at the waterfall.

Q: What did you do after, after taking the belladonna?

A: Walked over to the ranch.

Q: How far a walk was that?

A: I'd say less than a mile.

Q: What happened at the ranch?

A: I got over it and I remember seeing Sadie and Linda Kasabian, they had just got back from somewhere, I recall that.

Q: Do you remember whether it was early in the morning or mid-morning or what?

A: It was real early in the morning, about the same time the sun was coming up, about sunrise, yeah.

Q: How were they dressed when you saw them?

A: They were in black, all black.

Q: Did you say anything to them?

A: Not that I can recall. I just -- no, I heard something about conversations they had got some credit cards or something, that's about all I heard.

Q: What did you do that day, if you can remember?

A: I went in the shack down below the ranch and I was out all day on belladonna.

Q: Do you remember what time you woke up?

A: At eating time, when it was time to eat, one of the girls came and woke me up and told me it was time for the family, like Charlie was pulling everybody together for the night meal or something.

Q: Who decided when it was time to eat dinner?

A: Charlie did.

Q: Did anybody eat before he did?

A: No, I remember one time somebody ate before he did and he got real mad, you know, or nobody ever went to sleep before he did or nobody ever got out of bed before he did. You know, it was everybody was doing everything at the same time, one person, that was Charlie.

Q: When you were awakened in time for dinner, did you go to dinner?

A: Yes I did. I had a lot of energy but I didn't have a lot of pep or something, so I took some speed to get me moving, you know.

Q: Do you remember eating?

A: I didn't eat that night.

Q: Did you see Manson again that night?

A: I was sitting on the fireplace in the house where we ate and I don't remember who was in the house, but I know he called me outside and told me to go up to the ranch front, so that's what I did.

Q: When you got to the ranch front, who else was there, if anybody?

A: I remember a girl walked out, one of the girls, and everybody was taking acid that night, and that's what I was told, anyway, so I took some acid.

Q: Who gave it to you, if you remember?

A: I can't recall. I believe it was Squeaky, though I'm not for sure.

Q: Did anything else occur that evening that you remember?

A: Yes, Charlie called me over behind the car, down at the far end of the ranch, and handed me a gun and a knife and he said for me to take the gun and the knife and to go up where Terry Melcher used to live and to kill everybody in the house, as gruesome as I could, or something to that effect; or, "Make sure everybody is dead, as gruesome as you can," or something to that effect.

Q: Did he tell you who was in the house?

A: I think he said something about movie stars but I'm not for sure. I believe he did, though, I recall something about movie stars. I recall something.

Q: Did he say something about Terry Melcher living there?

A: No, he didn't. He said where Terry Melcher used to live, I believe.

Q: Who else was present at this conversation?

A: No one, just Manson and I.

Q: And what happened after that conversation?

A: Well, he continued to tell me the things he wanted done.

Q: Like what?

A: He said, "The bolt cutters are in the back of the car for you to cut the highline wires; then to go in and make sure everybody is dead as gruesome as you can"; and he said afterwards to wash off and to throw away the guns and the knives and the clothes; and then to come back to the ranch. Then he said something about writing on the walls, and we were walking over to the car that the girls were in and I said -- the first words that I had spoken -- and I said, "Now, what did you say?" or something to that effect. I wasn't real clear on what was to be wrote on the walls or clear about the whole thing, really; and he said, "Don't worry about anything, just make sure that everybody is dead and that it is done as gruesome as you can do it."

Q: What did you do then?

A: I got in the car.

Q: Where?

A: In the back seat of the car.

Q: Who was in the car?

A: Linda Kasabian.

Q: Where was she, if you remember?

A: She was at the driver's under the wheel.

Q: Who else was in it?

A: Sadie and Katie.

Q: You were in the back. Who else was in the back with you, if you remember?

A: It was either Katie or Sadie. I can't recall to be that perfectly clear on who it was.

Q: Did you see the bolt cutters in the car?

A: They were laying on the back floorboard of the car.

Q: Did this car have a back seat?

A: No. There was all kinds of stuff on the floorboard and there wasn't anything in the back seat but a bunch of bottles and stuff like that.

Q: Do you remember what the bolt cutters looked like?

A: They were big and they were bright red.

Q: How big?

A: About that long (indicating) or so.

Q: Two feet? Your Honor, I have here what appear to be a pair of red bolt cutters. May they be marked W-4 for identification?


MR. BUBRICK: W-D. I am sorry.

Q: Will you look at the bolt cutters in front of you and tell me if you recognize those?

A: Yes. They are the bolt cutters.

Q: Were they the bolt cutters in the car that night?

A: That is the kind.

THE COURT: It looks like it anyway?

A: Yes, right.

MR. BUBRICK: Incidentally this car that you were in was a yellow car, do you remember?

A: Yes. It was a yellow car.

Q: Who did it belong to, if you remember?

A: I believe his name was John.

Q: It was the car that you saw around the ranch?

A: It was, yes.

Q: All right. Did you drive off from the ranch?

A: Yes.

Q: And was Linda driving?

A: Yes, that is correct.

Q: And you were in the back seat; is that correct?

A: Right.

Q: Was there anything else in the car that you were aware of?

A: The only other thing that I was aware of is the gun and the knife that Charlie had given to me.

Q: How about any items of clothing?

A: No.

Q: And where was the car driven, if you remember?

A: It was driven up to the top of the hill and that is where Terry Melcher lived.

Q: It was on Cielo Drive?

A: I didn't see the street or anything. That is where we were, though.

Q: Did you say anything while the car was being driven?

A: No. I was laying down in the back seat. My head was in the girl's lap when I was laying down.

Q: Could you hear any directions being given to Linda?

A: No. I couldn't hear anything.

Q: Do you recall the car coming to a stop, the car stopping somewhere on the hill?

A: Yes, it stopped.

Q: Where? Do you remember?

A: It was by a telephone pole.

Q: What happened at the pole?

A: I know the girl that I was in the lap with shook me and said I'm to cut the wires, so I knew, you know, Manson had told me that to cut the wires, so I just went straight up the pole, you know.

Q: How did you get up the pole? Do you remember?

A: I can remember being on the pole, on the things that you climb on, your know. I was on those.

Q: The pegs or the bars in the pole?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you remember how far off the ground the first one was?

A: No, I don't.

Q: Do you know how you got up there?

A: I can't recall exactly how I did get up there.

Q: When you got up on the pole were you carrying the bolt cutters?

A: No, I was not.

Q: How did you get them?

A: Linda handed those to me.

Q: Where was she in the car?

A: She was -- the car I remember was parked right by the pole and she was in the driver's thing, right outside the door, handed them up to me.

Q: Did she get out of the car to do that?

A: Yes.

Q: And then you went up the pole, did you?

A: Yes.

Q: And you cut the wires?

A: I cut the first wire, all the wires that I could see.

Q: Do you remember how many there were?

A: No, I do not.

Q: Did you come down the pole?

A: I know I had to come down the pole but I actually don't recall coming down the pole.

Q: Do you remember whether you cut any other wires on the ground?

A: No. I did not cut any other wires.

Q: Did you have any other cutting device other than the bolt cutter?

A: Just my knife, that is all, the knife that Charlie had gave me.

Q: Did you have any pliers in your pocket or wire snips or anything of that nature?

A: No, nothing else like that.

Q: And you used those, that bolt cutter, to cut those pole wires; is that correct?

A: Yes, that is correct.

Q: You came back down the pole. Do you remember getting in the car?

A: No. The next thing that I can recall is walking back up a hill.

Q: Do you remember where the car was parked when you started to walk back up the hill?

A: We walked up the hill. It was at the bottom of a hill.

Q: Is that where the telephone pole was where the wires were cut?

A: No. The car was a long ways from the -- a pretty good little walk back up the hill.

Q: How did the car get from the pole where the wires were cut to where it was parked at the bottom of the hill?

A: It was drove to the bottom of the hill.

Q: By whom?

A: I don't know for sure who drove it.

Q: Did you do it?

A: No, I did not.

Q: Then how many were walking back up the hill when you got out of the car?

A: There was four of us.

Q: Do you remember what you were carrying?

A: I was carrying a gun and a knife.

Q: Did you pass any buildings, any houses on the way up the hill?

A: Yeah, I believe there were houses on one side and on the other was hills and rocks and things like that.

Q: How were you dressed?

A: I had on Jeans and a black shirt, I believe.

Q: How about the girls?

A: They all looked kind of like I did.

Q: In what respect?

A: The same kind of clothes kind of thing.

Q: Do you remember how you were carrying the knife?

A: I had the knife in one hand and I had that gun in the other hand.

Q: And were you carrying them exposed that way as you walked up the hill?

A: I was carrying them just the way they were given to me.

Q: What sort of knife did you have, Charles, if you remember?

A: I know it didn't have a handle on it; it was just a piece of metal.

Q: Do you mean there was no wood on the part that you grasp?

A: Right, yeah; there wasn't any, it was just a piece of metal.

Q: Did it have anything wrapped around it?

A: No, not that I know of. I didn't look that close.

Q: Now, as you passed these houses and approached this house on Cielo Drive, Terry Melcher's old house, were you aware of a gate?

A: No, we just walked right up to the fence and started over the fence; there wasn't really -- more of a gate, I don't know.

Q: Had you ever been to this house before?

A: Yes, I had.

Q: On how many occasions?

A: I'd say three.

Q: Do you remember how you got into the house -- or, strike that. Do you remember how you got up the driveway on the other three occasions?

A: Yes, there's a button outside the gate.

Q: What do you do to the button?

A: You push the button and the gate swings open.

Q: Did you do that on this night of August the 8th?

A: No, we did not.

Q: Did anybody push the button, as far as you know?

A: Not as far as I know.

Q: Why didn't you do it, if you knew it was there?

A: There was no thought about a button, it was just the fence was there and we just went over the fence; there just wasn't any thought about a button or anything like that.

Q: How high was the fence?

A: It was hard to get over; I don't know how high it was.

Q: You eventually got across the fence?

A: Right.

Q: And did the girls do it, also?

A: Yes.

Q: Then you got back to the driveway and continued walking on up; is that correct?

A: That is correct.

Q: Did anything happen as you were walking up the driveway?

A: Yes, a car's lights flashed on us and the car came up and --

Q: Just before that, do you remember, Charles, whether you -- what order you were in, in the sequence of four going up the hill; was there anybody in front of you?

A: There was two girls in front. We were kind of like we were riding in the car, the same way we was riding in the car we was riding up, going up that hill.

Q: Two girls in front of you?

A: Yes.

Q: And you are in back with another girl; is that correct?

A: Correct.

Q: The four of you walked up this hill together?

A: That's correct.

Q: What happened then, when you saw the approaching lights?

A: We were all four across the fence and the car pulled up and stopped and --

Q: Was anything said by anybody?

A: No, nothing was said by anybody. I stuck the gun in the car and shot.

Q: Shot what?

A: The guy.

Q: How many times?

A: I don't recall the exact number of times.

Q: Did you know who was in the car?

A: No, I just knew that Charlie, you know, like I could see and hear him, hear his voice like, and to kill everybody in the place; and I remember one of the girls did say something about, "We got to get everybody," or something to that effect.

Q: Was this before or after you saw the headlights of the car?

A: This was before we saw -- I saw the headlights of the car.

Q: Were you able to see who the driver of the car was?

A: No, I didn't see anything.

Q: Did he take any form or shape in your eyes?

A: No, huh-uh, just kind of like a mass thing there, you know. There really wasn't any -- felt like I was in a dream or something, you know, about half and half, you know; I felt half awake and half not awake.

Q: All right. After you shot the driver of the car, what did you next do?

A: Started walking up to the house.

Q: Were the girls still with you?

A: I didn't see the girls again until we were in the house.

Q: Was there anybody in front of you as you continued on up the driveway toward the main house?

A: No, there was nobody in front of me.

Q: What happened as you approached the front of the house?

A: I walked in the front door.

Q: Was there anybody there?

A: There was a guy laying on a couch asleep.

Q: But that's after you got in the house; is that correct?

A: That's after I got in the house.

Q: As you approached the door, was the door closed?

A: I believe it was, uh-huh; and I walked right in the door.

Q: You just opened the door --

A: Just opened it up.

Q: --just turned the knob and go right in?

A: Right.

Q: Was any of the group -- that is, any of the three girls with you at this time?

A: No, I didn't see any girls at that time.

Q: All right. What happened when you got in the house?

A: Then I saw Sadie.

Q: Where?

A: She just popped up.

Q: Do you know where she came from?

A: No.

Q: Did you see her before or after you saw the man on the couch?

A: I saw her -- did you say before or after I saw the man on the couch?

Q: Yes.

A: I believe I saw her before.

Q: What was she doing, if you know?

A: She went by me and went in the other part of the house. I was in the front room and she started bringing out people out of the rooms.

Q: How many people were in the front room that you went in?

A: There was one man laying on the couch asleep.

Q: And was he awakened while you were in that room?

A: He awakened when everybody was coming into the room.

Q: Who was coming into the room?

A: A bunch of people walking into the room.

Q: How many? do you remember?

A: Three or four people were walking into the room.

Q: Was Sadie one of them?

A: Sadie, yes, Sadie was one of them.

Q: Do you remember who else among the girls was in that group, if they were?

A: I didn't see any other girls yet.

Q: You didn't see Linda?

A: No, I didn't see Linda.

Q: Nor did you see Patricia; is that right?

A: She walked in the house as everybody was walking into the room.

Q: What happened when the group was in the room then?

A: A guy started toward me and --

Q: Was this the man that had been on the couch?

A: No, it was another person.

Q: What happened then?

A: And I was -- I remember I was kind of running or jumping back and forth behind the couch and making funny noises and Sadie said, "Watch out" or something like that and I turned around and I emptied the gun on this man.

Q: You say emptied the gun on this man?

A: Yes.

Q: How many times did you shoot him, if you know?

A: I don't know. I just shot, you know. I don't know how many times I shot him.

Q: Did you do anything else?

A: Then I went around the couch and started stabbing him.

Q: This is the same man that you shot?

A: Yes. Patricia was already over there stabbing him and I went over and I did the same thing.

Q: How long did that take or last?

A: Until Sadie hollered at me and she was fighting and stabbing a man going out the door.

Q: What did you do about that, if anything?

A: I remember Sadie hollering, "Tex, Tex," a bunch of times and I ran over and started hitting him with the gun.

Q: After you hit him, did you do anything else?

A: I hit him for a while and then there was a little lapse of time, I believe, and then Sadie was still stabbing him on the ground and I walked over and stabbed him some more.

Q: While he was on the ground?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: He is now outside of the house; is that correct?

A: That is correct.

Q: On the lawn?

A: On the lawn.

Q: Did anything else happen?

A: Then Katie came running over and grabbed me by the arm and said something like, "There's one over here," or something. I don't know what she said but she said, "come over here," and we ran over and there was just a woman lying there that had blood all over her and stabbed her.

Q: Did these people, or these people that you stabbed, or the objects that you stabbed, have any form?

A: They had form but I really didn't see any faces, you know, or expressions or -- they were just blobs of, you know --

Q: Did you have a rope with you that evening?

A: No, I did not.

Q: Did you carry a rope up the hill or into the house?

A: No, I did not.

Q: Did you tie any people up in that house?

A: No, I did not.

Q: Did you throw a rope over a rafter or anything of that nature?

A: No, I did not.

Q: I think you told us now you shot and stabbed somebody in the house; is that correct?

A: That is correct.

Q: And then you stabbed some people outside of the house; is that correct?

A: That is correct.

Q: Do you remember where the couch was in the house?

A: The couch was kind of in the middle of the room longways, up and down, up and down the room.

Q: Where were the two people that you stabbed in the house in relation to the couch?

A: Well, I only stabbed one person.

Q: I am sorry --the one person in the house.

A: In front of the couch, laying longways, laying --

Q: Parallel or perpendicular to the couch?

A: It was the opposite way of the couch.

Q: That would be perpendicular to the couch?

A: Perpendicular to the couch.

Q: How about the other person, do you remember if that was a man or a woman?

A: Had on blue jeans and stuff. I guess it was a man.

Q: How about the other person?

A: The other person was laying at the end of the couch up toward the room where they came out of perpendicular to the end of the couch, on down from the end of the couch.

Q: Did you touch either of those bodies after you had shot and stabbed them?

A: No.

Q: Did you move them?

A: No, I did not.

Q: Did you tie anything to them or tie them together?

A: No, I did not.

Q: After you left that room and went outside, did you go back into the house again?

A: No, I did not.

Q: Did you write anything on the walls of the house?

A: No.

Q: Did you slit the screen in that house?

A: No, I did not.

Q: Did you see Linda about that house at all while you were there?

A: No, I did not.

Q: You did see Sadie and Patricia; is that right?

A: Sadie and Patricia, yes.

Q: Was there any screaming among any of these victims?

A: It was wild and it was loud and all kind of noises.

Q: Did anybody beg for their life?

A: I couldn't really make out anything like that – screams and noises, loud noises.

Q: Did you hear any dogs barking?

A: No, I didn't hear any dogs barking.

Q: Did you hear the sound of music from a hi-fi set or anything like that?

A: No, I didn't hear any music or anything like that.

Q: How long would you say you were in this house on Cielo Drive?

A: I don't have any idea of time or anything, how long I was in there.

Q: After you left the house where did you go?

A: I was outside in the -- between the, like on the driveway outside of the house there.

Q: I take it these people were not people you had ever seen before, were they?

A: No. I never had seen anybody. I couldn't make them out, not that much.

Q: Can you tell us what it is that made you go there?

A: I was doing what Charlie had told me to do.

Q: I take it you had no grievance with those people?

A: No, none at all.

Q: How did you leave the premises, Charles?

A: We walked down the hill.

Q: How many of you walked down?

A: Three.

Q: Was Linda among that group?

A: No, she was not.

Q: Did you punch the button and get through the gate on the Way out?

A: We walked out the gate, but I didn't punch any button.

Q: Do you know who did?

A: No, I do not.

Q: You walked on down the hill?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you have the gun and the knife with you?

A: Yes, it was still with me.

Q: And where was the car, if you remember?

A: Parked at the bottom of the hill.

Q: Where you had left it?

A: Yes.

Q: All right; did you get back in the car?

A: Yes. No, Linda was sitting in some leaves or something beside the car, and she got in the passenger's seat and the girls got in the back seat and I got under the wheel and then Sadie or Katie, one, said for Linda to drive and for me to change clothes. So I scooted over and Linda drove off and I was changing clothes.

Q: Did the car come to a stop again?

A: Yes, it did.

Q: Where?

A: On some street.

Q: What did you do in between the time that you left Cielo Drive and the car stopped?

A: I changed clothes.

Q: Removed what, your shirt and trousers?

A: Yes, removed everything I had on.

Q: And you obviously put some other clothing on; is that right?

A: Yes. The girls in the back seat handed me some clothes to change into.

Q: And how about the girls, did they change their clothes?

A: As far as I know; I can't remember what they did, really, at that time.

Q: Where were you in the car when you changed clothes?

A: I was in the front seat.

Q: Alongside of Linda; is that correct?

A: Correct.

Q: And do you have any recollection of how long you might have been driving before you next stopped?

A: No. It didn't seem like too long, though, too long a time.

Q: Then you came to a stop in the car, did you?

A: Yes.

Q: Did you all get out?

A: Yes, we did.

Q: Where did you go?

A: We were walking up the street and a water hose was coming out the driveway.

Q: Incidentally, when you drove on this street where you saw the water hose, did you park the car on that same side of the street?

A: The car was parked going back down the street.

Q: So the front was pointed down toward Beverly Glen; is that right?

A: It was pointed back towards the main street.

Q: I mean Benedict Canyon, not Beverly Glen, I'm sorry. Is that correct?

A: It was pointed down towards the main street.

Q: Then you walked toward the water house, did you?

A: Yes, that's correct.

Q: The four of you?

A: Yes.

Q: Did somebody come out while you were there?

A: Yes.

Q: What happened when that person appeared?

A: He appeared and walked right up in front of me, right up to my face and said, "What you doing?" or something like that; and I said, "Getting a drink."

Q: What were you doing?

A: Getting a drink.

Q: Did you have the water hose and the water running?

A: I don't recall that.

Q: What happened after he talked with you?

A: I know there was a lot of confusion came down then; somebody ran out the house and we started walking towards the car.

Q: Did this man say or do anything?

A: I can't recall him saying anymore than what he said.

Q: Did he say, "What are you doing?" and you said you were getting a drink of water?

A: That's correct.

Q: And there was this confusion that you spoke of?

A: Yeah, and we started walking toward the car.

Q: How far away was the car?

A: Not too far at all; it was just right -- not too far.

Q: Did this man ever threaten you?

A: No.

Q: Did you threaten him?

A: No.

Q: You still had the knife and the gun, didn't you?

A: Not on me.

Q: Well, was it in the car?

A: Yes, it was in the car.

Q: What happened when you got back to the car?

A: I jumped under the wheel this time and the girls got in and we drove away.

Q: Where did you go?

A: I started driving and then one of the girls in the back seat said we had to stop and throw out the clothes and knives, so that's what we did; stopped and threw away everything that was in the car.

Q: Incidentally, Charles, I hate to take you back, but do you remember how many people you shot in the house?

A: One person.

Q: Oh, you shot one in the car, is that correct, outside of the house?

A: That's correct.

Q: And one in the house?

A: That's what I did.

Q: Do you have any recollection of shooting any other person in the house?

A: No, I have not, no.

Q: Did you know that the gun still had live bullets in it?

A: No, I did not.

Q: You thought you had discharged them all?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: All right. Now, back to leaving the house at the scene: Where did you drive after you left the house where you got the water?

A: Where did we what, now?

Q: Where did you drive after you left the house where you got the water?

A: Up the hill.

Q: To where, if you remember?

A: We went up and over and stopped at a filling station.

Q: Didn't anything happen there that you remember?

A: No, I know I got out and went to the bathroom.

Q: And then after that, where did you go?

A: I came out of the bathroom and got into the back seat of the car and laid down and ended up at the ranch.

Q: Do you remember what time of day or night it was?

A: Just that it was dark and late.

Q: What did you do when you got to the ranch?

A: We all went into the room at the end of the ranch house.

Q: Was anybody up at that hour?

A: Charlie was running around without any clothes on, I remember that.

Q: Anybody else with him?

A: And Brenda was there, and that's all I can recall.

Q: Did you tell Charlie what happened, or was anything said about that night?

A: I didn't say anything that night, but I know Charlie was kind of talking to some of the people in the ranch house there.

Q: What did you do after seeing Charlie back in the ranch house?

A: I went to sleep.

Q: Did you talk at all with Charlie that night?

A: No, I did not talk to Charlie that night.

Q: Did you see him the following day?

A: I didn't see him until later that night.

Q: Do you have any recollection of being up at all that following day?

A: Not the following day, no.

Q: Did you sleep most of the day?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: What happened the following day when you saw Charlie?

A: The first thing I remember is him giving me a knife and some acid.

Q: What time of the day or night was this?

A: I know it was just dark, a little after dark.

Q: Had you eaten supper yet?

A: I can't recall about supper that night.

Q: You got the knife and acid and then what?

A: He told me to get in the car.

Q: It was the same --

A: The same car.

Q: The same Ford automobile?

A: Yes.

Q: Was anybody else in the car?

A: Linda and in the back seat, was full, it had Sadie, Katie, and Leslie and Steve Grogan.

Q: There were seven of you; is that correct?

A: Yes, that is correct.

Q: Who was driving?

A: Charlie was driving.

Q: Did he say where you were going or what you were going to do?

A: I can't recall right now what he said.

Q: Incidentally, before you went out this evening of the 9th, had there been any discussion between you and Charlie about weapons? Anything said about weapons?

A: No.

Q: Did you ever tell Charlie that you ought to have better weapons than you had the night before?

A: No, I did not.

Q: Did you ever use the expression "I am the devil here to do the devil's work"?

A: No, I did not.

Q: Did you ever say that at the Tate house?

A: No.

Q: Did you say that the following night, if you remember?

A: No.

Q: Did you ever tell Charlie in the bunk house that that is what you said?

A: No, I did not.

Q: Had there ever been any discussion about the devil as part of the Manson philosophy?

A: The devil was the people, society, in that they were -- had so much thought that they were tearing up the world.

Q: That is who Manson considered the devil?

A: Yes; and also we, before we lost our thought, we were the devil.

Q: But you were no longer the devil now?

A: No, sir. We were considered as Christ, perfect.

Q: Is that what Charlie told you?

A: Everything was perfect, no mistake.

THE COURT: I think this would be a good time to recess. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will recess at this time until 9:30 tomorrow morning.

Once more do not form or express any opinion in this case.

Do not discuss it among yourselves or with anybody else. Please keep an open mind.

9:30 tomorrow morning.

(An adjournment was taken until Thursday, September 2, 1971 at 9:30 a.m.)