County of Los Angeles Sheriff's Department


Statement of MARY BRUNNER taken at the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department located at 211 West Temple Street, Los Angeles, California in the presence of Captain G.S. Walsh, Sgt. P. Whiteley, Detective Division Homicide Bureau, Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department and Detective Roger Brown, Claire, Wisconsin, Sheriff's Office, Deputy District Attorney Burton Katz and Deputy District Attorney Aaron Stovitz, Attorney Hugh Manes and secretary to Attorney Manes. Investigation under case file number 069-02378-1076-016. Date and time of statement: April 6, 1970, 2100 house.

Recorded statement transcribed by Audrey Belotte, Transcriber/Typist.

Unidentified noises in background.

MR. MANES: Is there any objection to my - oh secretary's being here, cause I want notes, it's only for my own --


MR. MANES: -- purposes.

MR. STOVITZ: (Unintelligible) here, sure. Is there any objection to my loosening my tie, I've had a hard day.

CAPT. WALSH: Eh - just a moment I'd like to get Sgt. Whiteley here.

MR. STOVITZ: You got a chair?


MR. STOVITZ: Mary, this is Captain Walsh, he's the head of the Homicide Division of the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department. Now the reason we're here now we've moved from the back room where we were talking is because I want to again, go over some of the things. Tomorrow morning at a secret session of the Grand Jury without any advance notice to the press, or anything like that, you'll be brought in this building and you will be called as a witness. The foreman of the Grand Jury will ask you certain questions. Before you're sworn among those questions that he'll ask you is that you have -- he'll ask you whether or not you understand that you have a right not to incriminate yourself. Now do you know what that word means?


MR. STOVITZ: Not get yourself in trouble. Now he'll ask you that he understands that you may be a possible suspect in the crime for which the Grand Jury is -is-eh investigating. And he'll tell you as a possible suspect you have a right not to be sworn as a witness. Now, Mr. Manes and I have agreed upon the following: That if you testify truthfully before the Grand Jury, and if you testify truthfully in the case of the people versus Beausoleil, you testify truthfully in any indictment that the Grand Jury may return on Gary Hinman murder, that we will ask the Superior Court to give you a order, to issue an order, giving you complete and absolute immunity of all crimes for which you testify. That will be all crimes, except one crime of perjury. And you know what perjury is? Swearing falsely. You understand? And - oh you will be - we anticipate that you will testify that you were in conspiracy to commit robbery against Gary Hinman. Now the word "conspiracy" is legally language for an agreement to rob Gary Hinman. And you may have thought morally that it wasn't robbery at the time but taking some property from somebody else against their will, without their consent, is robbery. You will be asked to testify completely as to what happened on two or three days before Gary Hinman met his death, on the day that Gary Hinman met his death, on the days up until August the eighth, the day that you were arrested in San Fernando. Do you remember the date? Do you remember the date?

MS. BRUNNER: August the 2nd. (8th)

MR. STOVITZ: Yah. Was it exactly at four p.m. that you were arrested or were you booked at four p.m.?

MS. BRUNNER: Unintelligible

MR. STOVITZ: All right we can check the official records at the San Fernando Police Department to - ah check it out. Now after your arrest you stayed in custody until what about September 19th or September 20th?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes, something -

MR. STOVITZ: And then - oh - did you plead guilty or, or were you found guilty?


MR. STOVITZ: You pled guilty. Do you remember whether a Public Defender was your attorney or not? Now without telling us what you said, did you tell the Public Defender anything about the Gary Hinman case?


MR. STOVITZ: Now after you pled guilty oh - you were allowed to get out on bail or out on your own recognizance, do you remember which it was?

MS. BRUNNER: I was out on bail before I went to court.

MR. STOVITZ: You were out on bail. Now you also had a bail on a traffic warrant up - in where is it, San Jose or some other -

MS. BRUNNER: Some - I don't know where it was.

MR. STOVITZ: Some place like that. It was about a $120 bail?

MS. BRUNNER: Um, hum.

MR. STOVITZ: And Charles Watson was the one who was there to pick you up from the jail, right? And then did you remain at Los Angeles or did you go right back to Wisconsin after that?

MS. BRUNNER: I left - I left the next day.

MR. STOVITZ: You left the next day. And then you came back for the date of (indistinguishable) the second or did you come back to plead guilty?

MS. BRUNNER: Came back to plead and then when I came back again for the sentence.

MR. STOVITZ: You came back again for the sentence. All right now, we understand that you have a child age how old?

MS. BRUNNER: Two months. (years)

MR. STOVITZ: You understand that our office, the Sheriff's Office, that no one in Los Angeles County can control what will happen to that child. You understand that. That's up to the authorities in Wisconsin, the child is in Wisconsin.

MS. BRUNNER: No, it's up to the authorities in California.

MR. STOVITZ: Oh, is it up to the authorities in - are the authorities in California the one who set the child --

MS. BRUNNER: Unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: Ward of the California courts.

MS. BRUNNER: Ward of the California courts.

MR. STOVITZ: Oh, is that right?

MS. BRUNNER: Uh, hum.

MR. STOVITZ: All right now. You understand that we're making no promises, making no threats, making no accusations or anything like that. If you prove to your - to the social department, Department of Social Welfare that you are a fit and proper mother then you can get that child back. Mr. Manes explained that to you right?


MR. MANES: Well I haven't gone into that aspect of it because I think we - we're not dealing with that aspect because that's something to do with the welfare of the child and we don't know anything about that. That's up to the Department of Social Welfare. Now -

MS. BRUNNER: Then - then who - who put that stopper on him that I couldn't have cause one day I can't have him till I get a job and two weeks later they decided no, not now.

MR. MANES: Isn't there some kind of dual control with Wisconsin and California?

MS. BRUNNER: California' got control and Wisconsin's has supervision. Wisconsin's supposed to check with California (unintelligible).

MR. STOVITZ: All right, now the child is actually in the physical custody of your parents? And as far as you know is the child being well treated?


MR. STOVITZ: And we're not going to take the child away from your parents you understand that. You understand that.

MS. BRUNNER: Yah. You're not (unintelligible).

MR. STOVITZ: You know that-that-that-eh when you talk about "we" we're talking about the society in general. They're only interested in the welfare of your child, right? And if you prove that you're a good mother then you'll be able to get the child back, Right? Don't you think so?

MS. BRUNNER: No. I've tried.

Unidentified sound in background - unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: Do you understand that, don't you understand that?

MS. BRUNNER: The probation (unintelligible).

MR. STOVITZ: Now, you have, what? Three years probation? Has your attorney explained to you what that means?

MS. BRUNNER: No I just assumed it (unintelligible).

MR. STOVITZ: Now do you have any questions about testifying before the Grand Jury tomorrow?

MS. BRUNNER: Well, what's the Grand Jury?

MR. STOVITZ: The Grand Jury is a body of about nineteen to twenty-one people, there will be no attorney present for the defendant. The defendants will not be present. It will be just a group of citizens in a court to hear this special matter. Now they sit all year long. They hear criminal cases one after the other. Mr. Katz will be there, I'll be there, Captain Walsh won't be there, special investigator won't be there, Mr.Manes will not be there. You'll be called into the room. You'll be explained your rights. You'll be explained that (unintelligible) although you have this right against self-incrimination that if you freely and fully testify that we will ask the Superior Court when all of the cases are over that they grant you full and complete immunity and we expect that to be done. But that immunity will not cover you from any perjury committed.

MS. BRUNNER: In other words my probation doesn't get dropped until like after everybody's been in court?

MR. STOVITZ: Everybody's been to court - everybody, now do you have any questions? Now if we call you as a witness tomorrow will you testify truthfully? Now if we call you as a witness tomorrow will you testify completely? In other words, such a thing as lapses of memory being lapse of memory. Now back in December when the officers came back and talked to you back in Wisconsin. Mr. Brown were you present then when the officers -

MR. BROWN: Yes, sir

MR. STOVITZ: And - (unintelligible). All right now, if you want to see that statement you have a copy of that statement to refresh your memory. If there's any police reports that you want to see to refresh your memory as to the dates you can see that as well. Now - ah is there anything now that you can remember that was inaccurate, in other words, something that stands out glaringly. Not how many - oh times Gary Hinman got stabbed or things like that. I can't expect you to remember that in minute details, but anything that was such a glaring difference from what had been stated in this case. Now let me ask you this. Whose car did you come out to when you went out to the Hinman house? Whose car did you go in, the very first time?

MS. BRUNNER: One of the cars at the ranch.

MR. STOVITZ: Was it an old '49-'59 Ford?


MR. STOVITZ: Yellowish in color?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, it was probably that one.

MR. STOVITZ: Was it?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes, it probably was that one.

MR. STOVITZ: All right. Do you remember whether it had a back seat in it or not? Not that's important (sound of coughing) but that's just one of the little things that we identify one of the cars. Now oh - do you remember who went with you when you got out there?

MS. BRUNNER: Sadie and Bobby and I and Bruce drove.

MR. STOVITZ: Bruce drove. Now when you went out there did you talk about it? What was gonna happen did you go out there for a musical lesson; did you go out there for a singing lesson or did you go out there to get something?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, Bobby said he's going out to go get some money from Gary.

MR. STOVITZ: Was any specific sum mentioned?

MS. BRUNNER: Three thousand dollars, three thousand.

MR. STOVITZ: Three thousand dollars, not twenty thousand?


MR. STOVITZ: All right now, was this three thousand dollars to be used for anything like paying the taxes or buying a new car or putting a new roof on the barn at the Spahn Ranch or anything like that?

MS. BRUNNER: I never heard any, any purpose attached to it.

MR. STOVITZ: It wasn't to go moving out to Barker Ranch in the desert or anything like that, that you know of?

MS. BRUNNER: Bobby said that Gary's got three thousand dollars with him.

MR. STOVITZ: Now you get out there and I understand that Gary didn't have the three thousand dollars, right?

MS. BRUNNER: That's right

MR. STOVITZ: I understand he had some money in the wallet and you took some of the money, that right?

MS. BRUNNER: Unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: Now up 'till the time that you had taken the money from him did you see him suffer any injury at all?


MR. STOVITZ: What injury and how was it inflicted?

MS. BRUNNER: He got hit in the head with a gun

MR. STOVITZ: By whom?


MR. STOVITZ: And was Sadie there at that time?


MR. STOVITZ: Now when you went out there did you expect him to be hurt in any way?

MS. BRUNNER: I didn't really know what to expect like eh - cause - eh I know that he didn't have any money and I told Bobby I knew that he didn't have any money. But Bobby said come along, so I went along and - and Bobby had said, you know, that he said like you know, if Gary doesn't come through well, you know, -

MR. STOVITZ: Rough him up a bit?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, little bit but I didn't really think, you know, it wouldn't turn out to be - why I didn't think Bobby would do it, you know, and he knew Gary didn't have no money. He must have known, 'cause I knew.

MR. STOVITZ: All right, now, did - did Charlie Manson ever come out to the ran - to Gary Hinman's house while you were there?

MS. BRUNNER: Only once.

MR. STOVITZ: All right, now - in your original statement you said that you got there Friday night at about midnight, you stayed there 'till about two o'clock Saturday morning and it was about two o'clock Saturday morning that Charlie Manson came out. Is that accurate or did he come out during the daylight hours?

MS. BRUNNER: He was there in the night time.

MR. STOVITZ: And was it the night time immediately following your first arrival there?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes. The same night time

MR. STOVITZ: The same night time. And when Charlie Manson came there did he come there again with Bruce Davis?

MS. BRUNNER: Um, hum.

MR. STOVITZ: Do you suspect that Bruce Davis went back to the ranch and came back with Charlie?

MS. BRUNNER: Um, hum.

MR. STOVITZ: Now did somebody call him that night, like, you know, Charlie Manson, to come out to eh -

MS. BRUNNER: Nobody.

MR. STOVITZ: Bobby called Manson to come out to Top - oh Hinman's house, is that right? Did you overhear what he said?


MR. STOVITZ: Now did he tell you what he said after that?

MS. BRUNNER: I don't know if I overhead it or, or if the impression I got.

MR. STOVITZ: What was the impression?

MS. BRUNNER: That he called Charlie and eh- just the impression that things weren't going the way he wanted them to go.

MR. STOVITZ: All right, and so then without me asking you questions, now, you just tell me as what you can best remember exactly what happened - what happened when Charlie Manson and Bruce Davis got there at the ranch in the middle of the night there.

MS. BRUNNER: At Gary's?

MR. STOVITZ: At Gary's

MS. BRUNNER: They came to the door and it was just a big scuffle and they wound up in the living room and Gary wound up cut and Charlie wound up cut and it was one of those things when everything's happening all at once and - you know, you know of things that were said and you know things happen but you don't what happened because it was - Whizzzzztttttt! - you know like that, like an accident - like a car accident just boom! And they came in the door.

MR. STOVITZ: By they you mean Bruce Davis and Charlie Manson?


MR. STOVITZ: Did they come in the front door?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah there's only that one -

MR. STOVITZ: All right.

MS. BRUNNER: -- door to come into the house.

MR. STOVITZ: At the time that they came in the front door had you all seen eh - helped Gary Hinman in any way with the wound that he had on top of his head?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, I cleaned him up.

MR. STOVITZ: And this was not a gun shot wound, right?


MR. STOVITZ: And it wasn't a knife wound, right?


MR. STOVITZ: How do you think he got that wound?

MS. BRUNNER: He got hit with it.

MR. STOVITZ: He got hit with what?

MS. BRUNNER: The gun.

MR. STOVITZ: And who was holding the gun when he got hit with it?


MR. STOVITZ: All right, now, did Bobby still have the gun when Charlie Manson came into the house?


MR. STOVITZ: When Charlie Manson came into the house - I take it this is a very small house, right? Eh - you come right in and you come right in to the living room?

MS. BRUNNER: Right into a den or a hall and you can either go to the right to the kitchen or to the left to the living room there. Or right straight to the bedroom.

MR. STOVITZ: And where was Gary Hinman at the time that Charlie Manson came in?

MS. BRUNNER: At the door.

MR. STOVITZ: Right - opened the door for him?

MS. BRUNNER: It was like everybody was at the door at the same time.

MR. STOVITZ: This is the hallway, right, straight in between the kitchen and the - eh living room?


MR. STOVITZ: Now, did Gary say something to Charlie about "Help me, call your men off me, help me, please I don't mean to eh-I don't want to get you in any trouble."

MS. BRUNNER: I don't know if he said anything.

MR. STOVITZ: All right. Did Charlie say anything to him about "what's the trouble" or anything like that?

MS. BRUNNER: I - I don't remember any words he said I just remember a big blurry of - of, you know, just.

MR. STOVITZ: Big blurry. Do you remember whether Charlie came in carrying that short sword?

MS. BRUNNER: I know he came in the kitchen afterwards with it.

MR. STOVITZ: All right. And when Charlie came into the kitchen afterwards was this the sword Charlie usually carried?

Unidentified voices in the background.

MS. BRUNNER: Eh - the only sword that was at the ranch like you couldn't put any thing with anybody usually because everybody used the same things.

MR. STOVITZ: Now, this is like a short pirate's sword with a round thing covering it? Here, let me get a picture.

Unidentified noise in background.

MR. STOVITZ: And oh - well - did you see Bruce Davis with any knife or anything like that?

MS. BRUNNER: Not - not that I can definitely say.

MR. STOVITZ: Okay, now, you say this hassle came. Was - was it like two people against two people or was - oh Gary Hinman fighting everybody or was just one person fighting Gary Hinman?

MS. BRUNNER: Everybody came - they - it was like we were all there at the door like we weren't coming up and Sadie had gone to the living room to look out the window to see who it was, and Bobby and Gary and I just about got, you know, we sort of got to the door at the same time. And then eh - the other two guys came in and you know, I know there were words said but I don't know what the words were. And then everything happened in the living room.

MR. STOVITZ: All right, now after everything happened you saw that - ah Gary Hinman had this cut over the side of his face, is that right?

MS. BRUNNER: I was in the kitchen and the first thing that Charlie came back and he had a cut in his finger and I fixed it.

MR. STOVITZ: Now what - what kind -

MS. BRUNNER: And Sadie was fixing the cut on -

MR. STOVITZ: What kind of a cut was it. Was it a little cut, like you get from a razor blade. Was it a cut you get from scissors or was it a good gash?

MS. BRUNNER: It was a good gash.

MR. STOVITZ: A good gash.

MS. BRUNNER: Yah good gash.

MR. STOVITZ: Was it an index finger?

MS. BRUNNER: Unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: You're indicating your left index finger, is that right?


MR. STOVITZ: Now and was it on the inside of the finger or the outside of the finger or the knuckle part - huh?

MS. BRUNNER: Inside.

MR. STOVITZ: Inside. Did Charlie say how it happened?

MS. BRUNNER: No, he just said like to cut my finger off.

MR. STOVITZ: He had the sword with him at that time?


MR. STOVITZ: Charlie said something "Like to have cut my finger off".

MS. BRUNNER: Practically cut his finger off.

MR. STOVITZ: Is that picture I show you now, although it's broken here does that look like his sword?

MS. BRUNNER: That's probably it. I thought - I thought a kind of -

MR. STOVITZ: You thought it had what?

MS. BRUNNER: I thought it had maybe something around like a (unintelligible).

MR. STOVITZ: Like a guard around here?

MS. BRUNNER: Yes, like a guard around (unintelligible).

MR. STOVITZ: All right. Now then, how soon after you saw Charlie's cut finger did you see Hinman?

MS. BRUNNER: I didn't really see him good, all that night not 'till the next morning 'cause Sadie took care of him.

MR. STOVITZ: All night and when you did see Gary the next morning describe how he was cut. Was it an eye, was it a nose?

MS. BRUNNER: No, it was his ear and his cheek.

MR. STOVITZ: Do you remember which ear?

MS. BRUNNER: Umm, this one.

MR. STOVITZ: You're indication your left ear and then it would be also his left cheek is that right? Was there actually a portion of his ear missing?

MS. BRUNNER: No it was just sliced in two.

MR. STOVITZ: Just sliced in two. In other words you could sew it back on if you had a good needle and thread is that right?

MS. BRUNNER: Unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: And - eh by the next morning what did you do? Go to sleep or did you just stay talking to Charlie there?

MS. BRUNNER: Charlie left.

MR. STOVITZ: How soon would you say he left, an hour, two hours?

MS. BRUNNER: I don't know. He and Gary talked for a while and then he had just left.

MR. STOVITZ: Do you remember what he and Gary talked about?


MR. STOVITZ: Did he say anything about, "Why don't you give us the money and then nothing will happen to you?"

MS. BRUNNER: I don't think he even talked about the money.

MR. STOVITZ: Did Gary say anything about "please call your guys off - ah I won't say anything to the cops, I won't say anything to the police."

MS. BRUNNER: I don't think he said anything he said stuff like that to Bobby but I don't think he said anything to Charlie.

MR. STOVITZ: What was Bruce doing all the time? Drinking beer or something?

MS. BRUNNER: I don't know what he was doing. I just - I don't remember him being any places in particular.

MR. STOVITZ: All right now, when Manson left do you remember anything that was said by Manson to Bobby as to what to do with Hinman?

MS. BRUNNER: Not right then.

MR. STOVITZ: Did they ever tie Hinman up, by "they" I mean Bruce or Bobbie or Charlie?

MS. BRUNNER: Uh, uh.

MR. STOVITZ: Now then Manson left, was it still daylight when Manson left?

MS. BRUNNER: No, it was still dark.

MR. STOVITZ: Still dark. Bruce left with Manson.

MS. BRUNNER: Unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: Now after they left did you go to sleep?

MS. BRUNNER: Unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: Did anything - was anything said about somebody guarding Hinman - Gary?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah. We - I mean somebody stayed up all night.

MR. STOVITZ: And - and when that person stayed awake did they have a gun or a knife on - with them?

MS. BRUNNER: There was a gun in the house all the time he keeps it on the dresser.

MR. STOVITZ: Can you - can you describe the gun for us?

MS. BRUNNER: It was just a gun.

MR. STOVITZ: Do you have any pictures?


MR. STOVITZ: Mary, - eh- Mary how did Charlie leave, did he leave in the same car that Bruce was driving or did he take one of Gary's?

MS. BRUNNER: Well sort of like that one.

MR. STOVITZ: The gun is sort of like this one?

MS. BRUNNER: You know, guns look alike to me, you asked if the gun is shaped like that, you know.

MR. STOVITZ: Not a revolver. You know the difference between a revolver and an automatic don't you?

MS. BRUNNER: No, I don't I just know that it was a short gun.

MR. STOVITZ: Eh - let me show you what a revolver looks like. That's a revolver.

MS. BRUNNER: Oh, yes. Eh, uh.


MR. STOVITZ: Mary did Charles take that Fiat back to the ranch?

MS. BRUNNER: Somebody did. One of them did.

MR. STOVITZ: Well what kind of car did they leave there then?

MS. BRUNNER: Just one of Gary's cars.

MR. STOVITZ: So in other words, Bruce must have left in the same car that Bruce came in and Gary must have left with the Fiat - or that is Charlie Manson must have left with the Fiat.

MS. BRUNNER: Well - he - they took both cars back to the ranch.

MR. STOVITZ: How do you know this?

MS. BRUNNER: Well the Fiat was gone the next morning.

MR. STOVITZ: Well did you actually hear a car starting up or did you see Charlie taking the keys or anything like that from Hinman or from the house did he take some keys?

MS. BRUNNER: The keys were in the kitchen when I was in the kitchen.

MR. STOVITZ: Did you see them?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, I think I saw Charlie take them.

MR. STOVITZ: Then you heard a car starting up (unintelligible) car wasn't there afterwards.


MR. STOVITZ: Okay, now then did daylight breaks now it's Saturday. And you said that eh - you saw Gary's wound on Saturday. Now was Gary bleeding from anything above his face except from the ear part. No and did he have any wounds in his chest or hands or anything like that? All right, had the blood stopped from his head where he had been beaten on the head? All right now, eh - stayed there all day Saturday, what did you and Gary and Bobby and Sadie talk about?

MS. BRUNNER: We didn't talk about much of anything.

MR. STOVITZ: Did anybody leave the house to buy any food?

MS. BRUNNER: Sadie left once. I don't know if she left Saturday or Sunday.

MR. STOVITZ: How did she leave? Did she leave in one of the cars?

MS. BRUNNER: Hitch hiked.

MR. STOVITZ: What's that?

MS. BRUNNER: Hitch hiked.

MR. STOVITZ: She hitch hiked. All right, while you were there any phone calls received? And did you answer the phone at any time?


MR. STOVITZ: And did Sadie answer the phone at any time?


MR. STOVITZ: And when Sadie answered the phone did she speak in her normal way, or did she speak -

MS. BRUNNER: No, once she put on - she definitely was acting. She always, she never spoke you know, (Unintelligible).

MR. STOVITZ: And did anyone come to the door while you were there?


MR. STOVITZ: Who was it who came to the door?

MS. BRUNNER: Some guy I don't know him.

MR. STOVITZ: Did you speak to him or did Sadie?


MR. STOVITZ: Did she tell him anything?

MS. BRUNNER: She told him Gary had gone for a walk.

MR. STOVITZ: And (unintelligible).

MS. BRUNNER: At the door?

MR. STOVITZ: Unintelligible.

MS. BRUNNER: I don't know.

MR. STOVITZ: Now when Gary and Bobby were talking there on Saturday before daylight Bobby asking Gary for the money still?

MS. BRUNNER: Might have kind of been like they had gone through that the night before. There wasn't any.

MR. STOVITZ: All right did he ask him where some money could be hidden? What gave Bobby the idea there was money there?

MS. BRUNNER: Gary had it in stocks.

MR. STOVITZ: Did he say so?


MR. STOVITZ: Did he say anything about getting it out of stocks?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, he said you know, just couldn't be done.

MR. STOVITZ: What's that?

MS. BRUNNER: Couldn't be done. He said his father had the stocks at his father's house in Colorado and that something (unintelligible).

MR. STOVITZ: Did Bobby ask for the stocks? (Unintelligible)

MS. BRUNNER: He asked Gary could he cash them in and Gary said no he couldn't.

MR. STOVITZ: Was - at any time did anybody mention the fact that Gary might have had twenty thousand dollars instead of just three thousand?

MS. BRUNNER: Well oh - is it two thousand or three (unintelligible) I don't know it's so ridiculous. It doesn't make - you know.

MR. STOVITZ: Well that time you folks were living at the ranch you had you used to go on those garbage runs, did anybody have any large sum of money there?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah at times.

MR. STOVITZ: When new people would come to the ranch you had large sums of money (unintelligible).

MS. BRUNNER: Or when old people got money that they had.

MR. STOVITZ: And eh - so anyway now we're talking about Saturday and you and Bobby and Gary were there and - eh what was happening was anybody getting medical attention for Gary or was he suffering was he swollen or -

MS. BRUNNER: No, he asked me to sew his ear up and I sewed it up one day. I don't know if it was Saturday or Sunday. I just took one stitch back together again.

MR. STOVITZ: And what kind of thread did you use?

MS. BRUNNER: Dental floss.

MR. STOVITZ: Did you have any nursing experience?


MR. STOVITZ: And eh - when you sewed it back up did Gary tell you how he got hurt?

MS. BRUNNER: Tell me how he got hurt?


MS. BRUNNER: No, no you know, it was pretty obvious it had been cut.

MR. STOVITZ: Did he say how or what, like he fell down on a chair and cut himself or -


MR. STOVITZ: Somebody use scissors on him or somebody bite him?

MS. BRUNNER: No didn't anything because there wasn't any need to.

MR. STOVITZ: Well just like, you know, there's an old story you say, eh, somebody bit another man's ear off and he says "well how do you know, did you see him bite the ear off", he says, "no, I didn't see him bite it off but I saw him when he spit it out," so - sure he didn't bite his ear off?

MS. BRUNNER: It was perfectly obvious it was cut.


MS. BRUNNER: It looked like it had been cut - well I figure it had been cut with that sword.

MR. STOVITZ: You - you never saw any blood on the sword though?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah I imagine sometime.

MR. STOVITZ: But you didn't - you didn't know whether that blood was from Manson's finger or from Hinman's ear, did you -

MS. BRUNNER: Charlie mentioned Gary's ear at that time.

MR. STOVITZ: What did he say?

MS. BRUNNER: Said his ear was probably cut off.

MR. STOVITZ: Let me ask this (unintelligible) made a statement. (Unintelligible) sword with some blood on it after you later or shortly thereafter saw Gary Hinman with his ear (unintelligible). Gary Hinman, oh - had you see it just shortly after Charlie made that statement to you. (Unintelligible) in other words, it wasn't seven or eight hours later after you realized Gary had been cut?

MS. BRUNNER: No I knew that he had been cut right away but I didn't sew it because he was back in the room and Sadie took care of it.

MR. STOVITZ: Oh, I see, in other words, you knew by the fact that Charlie had said that he cut his ear and eh - there blood on the sword?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah and eh - you know -

MR. STOVITZ: Where was the - let me ask this - where was the (unintelligible) sword, Unintelligible.

MS. BRUNNER: Oh, well, he was wearing the sword don't know, its only that one.

MR. STOVITZ: This is the short sword? (unintelligible). We're just going to show you some pictures, they're not gory or anything just to refresh your memory as to the interior of that place. Let me show you the pictures. She'll see there tomorrow when you get orientated. Eh - this is the pictures of the kitchen with the table and chairs overturned, is that right?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, they were.

MR. STOVITZ: And - eh what's this, this is the kitchen too?

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: This is the kitchen too. Eh - I was just - I was just going to show her these pictures.

MR. KATZ: Well I (unintelligible)

MR. STOVITZ: Now this is the living room is that right?


MR. STOVITZ: Right there, and (unintelligible). That looks like (unintelligible). Mary let me ask you this, was there a struggle in the kitchen?

MS. BRUNNER: Um hum.

MR. STOVITZ: Is that how this little (unintelligible) came to be broken or did somebody break it afterwards?

MS. BRUNNER: First it was broken and we fixed it and then rebroke it, on purpose.

MR. STOVITZ: Why did you break it on purpose?

MS. BRUNNER: Bobby's suggestion.

MR. STOVITZ: What did you do in the meantime? Was this before or after Gary was dead?

MS. BRUNNER: Um - he'd - he stabbed Gary but Gary didn't die. He went to the phone then.

MR. STOVITZ: Was this when he was rasping pretty heavily?

MS. BRUNNER: No he was just laying on the floor passed out.

MR. STOVITZ: Where was this eh -


MR. STOVITZ: Was Gary in the living room at the time?

MS. BRUNNER: Uh, huh.

MR. STOVITZ: Where that blue buddhist shrine (unintelligible). And - eh right there was a time when a gun during a struggle - a time when a gun discharged, right. New look at this picture here (unintelligible) in the kitchen when the gun was discharged. So then ultimately (unintelligible) you struggle. (Unintelligible) In the kitchen is that right?

MS. BRUNNER: It was when eh -

MR. STOVITZ: That when Sadie had originally had the gun? Let me ask you this.

MS. BRUNNER: There was - I think there was two fights over the gun and that was one of them.

MR. STOVITZ: Was there a - was there a time when Bobby eh - a passed the gun to Sadie to hold on him and there was - a he was out rummaging around in the house.

MS. BRUNNER: That's when he made the phone call.

MR. STOVITZ: Back to the ranch to Charlie and there was - did you hear any conversation between Sadie and Hinman, about "hey just stay cool" or something like that and Bobby ran back and there was a struggle for the gun?

MS. BRUNNER: Sadie or Bobby asked (unintelligible) Gary asked Sadie for the gun and said you know, cooperate and all that and Sadie kept backing up but he kept coming and he just took it from her.

MR. STOVITZ: And then Bobby and then Bobby got into the struggle. Were you engaged in (unintelligible) the struggle. This was all in the kitchen? And was that - that struggle was when the (unintelligible) - was overturned?

MS. BRUNNER: No I think it was before that because that one wound up with everybody on the floor and I know it wasn't that one.

MR. STOVITZ: Was that eh - (unintelligible). Let me ask you this (unintelligible) this words to here do you remember who wrote those words there on the picture eight?

MS. BRUNNER: Those weren't on the wall when I left.

MR. STOVITZ: They were not on the wall when you left Hinman's house on Sunday is that right?

MS. BRUNNER: Unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: All right, and eh - was this so-called "paw" eh - see this thing looks like a paw or heel print?

MS. BRUNNER: There wasn't - there wasn't anything on the house when I left.

MR. STOVITZ: Now do you know anything as to how the words "Political Pigs" go there?

MS. BRUNNER: Bobby told me he had put it.

MR. STOVITZ: Did he say when he put it there or how he put it there or anything?

MS. BRUNNER: He put it there after - we - after Sadie and I had gone out.

MR. STOVITZ: Gone what?

MS. BRUNNER: Gone out of the house.

MR. STOVITZ: You from Canada?


MR. STOVITZ: People from Wisconsin Say "out" too, huh?

MS. BRUNNER: I guess so.

MR. STOVITZ: All right, now, was this on the same day, Sunday, or was this a day or two later?

MS. BRUNNER: Sunday when he put it there.

MR. STOVITZ: Sunday when he put it there. In other words you three had actually loft the Hinman residence and you were outside when Sadie -


MR. STOVITZ: Did Bobby go back in or head he remained inside?

MS. BRUNNER: I guess I just left ahead of them cause you know (unintelligible).

MR. STOVITZ: Have you (unintelligible) gather any of the bloody garments and stuff (unintelligible). (Unintelligible) okay to do that?

MS. BRUNNER: It was one of those things, where you know, eh - somebody told you to think of it, you (unintelligible).

MR. STOVITZ: Did you wipe down the house for prints at all (unintelligible)? (unintelligible) another you did spontaneously or Bobby told you to do it?

MS. BRUNNER: I don't know, it was just done.

MR. STOVITZ: Let me ask you this, see this picture here this is tree room, over here in this door (unintelligible) kitchen there's a slug in that door there. Do you know how that happened? Do you know whether or not Bobby tried to (unintelligible)?

MS. BRUNNER: Bobby? I don't know.

MR. STOVITZ: Yah, he may (unintelligible).

MS. BRUNNER: I don't know.

MR. STOVITZ: Were you ever in this little room?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, I walked back and that door was open and went in.

MR. STOVITZ: It was - it was open?

MS. BRUNNER: Unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: All right, right have there are little bits of chain you can't see them they're very fine kind of chain you wear with a charm around your neck. Were you wearing a chain or was Sadie wearing a chain or was Bobby or anybody?

MS. BRUNNER: I know, know wasn't. I don't think Bobby was and I don't remember seeing Sadie wearing one.

MR. STOVITZ: How about Gary, do you think Gary might have - eh worn a chain?

MS. BRUNNER: Gary was out in that room the whole time we ere there.

MR. STOVITZ: He was never in this particular room? Now Mary eh - I know it's going to be difficult for you to get a good rest tonight but I want you to get a good rest. We would appreciate that you not call any of the people at the ranch, because we understand that you still have a fondness for some of the girls that you used to be with, it that true?

MS. BRUNNER: Unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: Now recently it was reported to us, we don't know if it's true or not Lynda McCann, or Nancy Pitman and Lyn Fromme came out to see you in Wiscounsin. Did they come out to see you just last week?

MS. BRUNNER: Does it matter?

MR. STOVITZ: Well the thing is this, that if they came out to influence you not to testify and if you are influenced by this, then it would be a good reason not to see them. Now if they came out there merely to extend their greetings and wish you a Happy Easter that's one thing, but, eh - we understand that they have exerted - I don't know if you call it pressure or what you want to call it and oh it cause witnesses to you know change their mind. Now you were in jail on August the 8th so therefore you have nothing to do with the so-called Sharon Tate killings and the next day the La Bianca killings, right?


MR. STOVITZ: Aside from forgery that you committed which we know about, they don't know about anything that you did that we don't know, do they?


MR. STOVITZ: The girls. They don't have anything over your head that they're spill the beans on you if you talk or anything do they?


MR. STOVITZ: All right, now, we understand that you're still very fond of Charlie and we're not going to try to talk about what's right and or what's wrong, what's moral or what's immoral. We understand that you have a certain thing about that. But you do understand that if you testify truthfully you may be getting Charlie in trouble, you understand that? Are you still willing to testify truthfully?

MS. BRUNNER: Unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: Now - eh as I said before there is nothing that we can do to prevent you from seeing these people in the Beausoleil trial. If they hear that you are here they may come down and try to get in to the court room, so far they have been excluded because they may be witnesses in the case. But they may be down tomorrow, you see. Do you think that would affect you in anyway that they were in the court room at the time that you were testifying in the Bobby Beausoleil case?

MS. BRUNNER: Having Bobby in the court room will affect me.

MR. STOVITZ: Having Bobby. Do you have any feelings close feelings for Bobby?


MR. STOVITZ: Even after he did, don't you think that killing another human is just about as bad as anything could be?

MS. BRUNNER: I did it too?

MR. STOVITZ: All right, now you did it too. You had a conscience at one time, right? Do you still have a conscience?

MS. BRUNNER: I - it's just that you know, like - eh like I killed Gary and that's wrong you know.


MS. BRUNNER: And now you're asking me to kill Bobby.

MR. STOVITZ: No, we're not asking you to kill Bobby. Do you know what's going to happen? You know what's going to happen? You testimony might in effect - in effect, save Bobby from the gas chamber. And that this - this is the way I use this for rationalization. One person had (unintelligible) all on his own. He had to share that crime all by himself. Sometimes the jury goes very heavy on him. But the jury's been told already by Danny DeCarlo's statements that Manson's bragged about cutting off Hinman's ear. So they know tho, that the base has been spread out so they can share the blame, so to speak. Now you feel that killing a human being was wrong why didn't you go to the police after Gary Hinman's killing. Tell about it. Get it off your chest?

MS. BRUNNER: Cause I was an outlaw then.

MR. STOVITZ: I see. You do feel it's wrong to murder, right?

MS. BRUNNER: I feel that, that either all was wrong or all was right there's no "sometimes it isn't."

MR. STOVITZ: By this you mean you're talking about war and things like this? All right.

MS. BRUNNER: And gasing and things like that.

MR. STOVITZ: Eh - in Wisconsin do they have the death penalty, do you know?

MS. BRUNNER: No, I know they don't.

MR. STOVITZ: They don't have the death penalty.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: And haven't for many years.

MR. STOVITZ: What's that?

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Not for many years. Since 1914?

MR. STOVITZ: 1914. Don't they have it for killing a police officer in the line of duty? No crime at all?


MR. STOVITZ: And you know you have less murders in Wisconsin than you have anywhere else, do you know why? You have a very stable population. A very stable population. A good stock of people there. You gotta be good to live in that cold weather. All right now aside from the feeling about killing Bobby eh - are still going to testify truthfully in Bobby's trial?


MR. STOVITZ: Is there anything that you want to tell us now - now we're going to go into greater depth with you tomorrow at the grand jury you understand that. We're just showing you the type of questions that we're going to ask you and we want you to answer eh - tomorrow outloud no like "um hum" or like that because um like this stenographer, the reporter there is very deaf. They employ very deaf people and they have to hear what you say since you have to answer out loud and I'll be reminding you of that over and over again. And it will be like, you know, "Speak up young later", like they used to do in speech class, remember your speech class? Did you ever take speech? No?


MR. STOVITZ: Unintelligible.

MS. BRUNNER: Bobby wore it.

MR. STOVITZ: ANd Bobby had this knife with him when he went in the house?

MS. BRUNNER: Is that the knife (unintelligible) there?

MR. STOVITZ: Yah it's got (unintelligible).

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, I remember that.

MR. STOVITZ: Was there anything on the tip of the handle at all, do you remember any symbol or a -

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Tip of the handle or tip of the blade?

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: No tip of the handle.

MR. STOVITZ: There's an eagle-little eagle?


MR. STOVITZ: What was it a Thunderbird or Eagle or something (unintelligible).


MR. STOVITZ: (Unintelligible) remember anything like that. (unintelligible). Now this is the Fiat that was there at the ranch.

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, front end of it anyway.

MR. STOVITZ: Front, do you (unintelligible).

MS. BRUNNER: No, I don't know the front from the back.

MR. STOVITZ: Do you remember the front end of it?


MR. STOVITZ: Is that it?


MR. STOVITZ: And this V.W.


MR. STOVITZ: And let me just ask you this question, how many times did - eh did Bobby stab Gary?

MS. BRUNNER: I don't know for sure.

MR. STOVITZ: Unintelligible.

MS. BRUNNER: Oh, Gary was bleeding from the chest.

MR. STOVITZ: Where was Bobby in relation to eh Gary when he was bleeding from the chest?

MS. BRUNNER: Near him.

MR. STOVITZ: Near him. Did he have his knife in him at the time?

MS. BRUNNER: I suppose so. When - the first time he must have stabbed Gary I had been in the kitchen and Sadie was in the bathroom and there was this noise in the living room and - and Sadie and I both went running in there and Gary was bleeding from the chest.

MR. STOVITZ: Well did Gary say anything at all? Or do anything, did he try and walk out of the room?

MS. BRUNNER: He got up and went in the bathroom.

MR. STOVITZ: And what happened? Did he go back -

MS. BRUNNER: He won't back in the living room and lay down.

MR. STOVITZ: Where at the at the little shrine?

MS. BRUNNER: Unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: Did anybody force him to lay down or did he just lay down?

MS. BRUNNER: He lay down.

MR. STOVITZ: Mary there's some funny little beads here eh - have you ever, did you have any beads at all that you know of?

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Unintelligible, it looks like a stethoscope, in that picture, chanting beads. Did you ever hear him chanting at all?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, Gary chants. I don't remember seeing any of these beads at all.

MR. STOVITZ: Well, with reference to chanting did Bobby ever tell him to chant? When was that?

MS. BRUNNER: After he stabbed him.

MR. STOVITZ: After he stabbed him the first time? Did he make any statements after he stabbed him as to eh, well he was doing him a favor and all that (unintelligible) struggle all soon would be over (unintelligible) like (unintelligible) his brother did he talk like that much?

MS. BRUNNER: He just asked him if Bobby was (unintelligible) real and he just asked Gary to chant and (unintelligible).

MR. STOVITZ: Now that was after he stabbed him the first time? How did he make that loud rasping noise after the first stabbing or second?

MS. BRUNNER: Second.

MR. STOVITZ: How much time lapsed between those two stabs?

MS. BRUNNER: Eh - couple of hours I guess.

MR. STOVITZ: Oh, I see so in other words Gary after the first stabbing got up, went to the bathroom and came back out and lay down beneath the shrine. Is that right? Now he began this chanting (unintelligible) Bobby. Or just chants?

MS. BRUNNER: Just chants.

MR. STOVITZ: Chants - and -

MS. BRUNNER: He just, you know - chants.

MR. STOVITZ: And (unintelligible).

MS. BRUNNER: I don't know how long he kept it up.

MR. STOVITZ: You saw blood though (unintelligible) and a couple of hours later Bobby stabbed him?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, Sadie and I were out of the house and then Bobby stabbed him with (unintelligible).

MR. STOVITZ: Unintelligible what Gary indicated to you that -

MS. BRUNNER: No, then - then Bobby came out and said, "Let's go" and then Gary started that rasping.

MR. STOVITZ: And then what happened?

MS. BRUNNER: Bobby went back in the kitchen.

MR. STOVITZ: And unintelligible the door?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah and (unintelligible).

MR. STOVITZ: And then what happened?

MS. BRUNNER: Threw a pillow over Gary's head so he wasn't rasping so loud and then I don't remember when he opened the door if he opened it right away or if he went in and came back and opened it and then he asked me (unintelligible) call (unintelligible).

MR. STOVITZ: Was that call made back to the ranch at that time?

Sound of ringing.

MS. BRUNNER: Another call made back at the ranch sometimes around then I don't know or after the second stabbing sometime.

MR. STOVITZ: Did Bobby ever say that he called Charlie back at the ranch and oh that he told Bobby that morning or night I stabbed Gary and he was gone, Bobby told you that?

MS. BRUNNER: He told me what he'd (unintelligible)

MR. STOVITZ: And - eh did he tell you that after he made the second call to the ranch?

MS. BRUNNER: He told me that after he called the ranch, I don't know what number phone call.

MR. STOVITZ: Do you know who he talked to at the ranch?

MS. BRUNNER: Not for certain. I assumed it was Charlie but it, it was.

MR. STOVITZ: Did he tell you it was Charlie?


MR. STOVITZ: Eh - what made Bobby leave the Ranch driving that Fiat to try to get away or what? Did somebody tell him to beat it or -

MS. BRUNNER: He - eh - he just left there.

MR. STOVITZ: Just on his own idea?

MS. BRUNNER: Like it was the second time he'd done it.

MR. STOVITZ: Now you remember that?

MS. BRUNNER: He left ones and he was going to get rid of it and then came back with it a few days later.

MR. STOVITZ: Now you remember that after Charlie - eh after - eh Bobby left the ranch you got word at the ranch that he'd been arrested by the CHP remember that? Was that by telephone call, or did somebody notify -

MS. BRUNNER: Bobby called.

MR. STOVITZ: Bobby called the ranch. Eh - was that to say, "I've just been returned to Los Angeles," or "I've just been arrested," or what?

MS. BRUNNER: He didn't talk to me I don't know.

MR. STOVITZ: Do you know who he talked to?

MS. BRUNNER: Unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: Do you know whether or not Charlie was there at that time?

MS. BRUNNER: At the ranch?



MR. STOVITZ: He ran himself when Bobby called the ranch?

MS. BRUNNER: I don't know.

MR. STOVITZ: Do you remember a girl by the name of Stephanie Schram?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, I know the name.

MR. STOVITZ: Unintelligible young girl.

MS. BRUNNER: I met her once.

MR. STOVITZ: Eh - she went away with Charlie around August the second or third and they went up to Big Sur and then they went to San Diego in this bakery truck.

MS. BRUNNER: He picked her hitch hiking some places, she hadn't been to the ranch.

MR. STOVITZ: Oh, she'd never been at the ranch?

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Eh that the girl he picked up at Big Sur?

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Charlie was driving that bakery truck that you and Sandy were using that day you got arrested remember that, that white one sort of a white bakery truck?

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: Is that when Charlie got back to the ranch with that bakery truck?

MS. BRUNNER: When he got back which time?

MR. STOVITZ: Well, no - you we can fix the date that you went out on August the 8th and you and Sandy had that bakery truck wh - why, why didn't you take it before - (unintelligible) bakery truck.

MS. BRUNNER: Unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: Charlie had to come back with that bakery truck sometime before you and Sandy (unintelligible) do you remember when it was?

MS. BRUNNER: He went up north and then he came back, then he left again, then he came back, then he left again, then he came back. He might have gotten back that day or the day before, I don't remember.

MR. STOVITZ: He didn't tell you what he'd been doing or anything like that?

MS. BRUNNER: Unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: Do you know anything about any of these so-called killings up in San Jose or Ukiah Mendocino County?


MR. STOVITZ: You know they've tried to connect the - the quote - "Manson Family" with that, do you know anything about them at all?

MS. BRUNNER: No. I heard there was something they were trying to connect us with something in Mendocino but I never (unintelligible).

MR. STOVITZ: Cause you see you girls had been arrested in Mendocino County back in '68 do you remember that?

MS. BRUNNER: Um hum.

MR. STOVITZ: And cause Susie, Sadie went up to San Jose in '69 around June, something like that and there'd been two people killed in San Jose about that time. Any talk at the ranch about that?

MS. BRUNNER: Unintelligible.

MR. STOVITZ: Did eh - anybody come up to see you in jail after you were arrest on August the 8th?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, Lynn Fromme.

MR. STOVITZ: Lynn Fromme. Did they tell you that they were trying to get money from Melba Cronkite to get you out of jail?

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, I called Melba and asked for money to get me out of jail.

MR. STOVITZ: Was that the same day you were arrested?


MR. STOVITZ: It was the day after?

MS. BRUNNER: It was some day when I was in court when I had access to a phone.

MR. STOVITZ: Did she say anything about Charlie had already asked for money and she told him, "no."

MS. BRUNNER: Oh, I remember it was the day that - not the day but when they got - when they pulled that GTA bust up at the ranch.

MR. STOVITZ: August 16th.

MS. BRUNNER: Okay, well, then and then what day was that?

MR. STOVITZ: August 16th.

MS. BRUNNER: Was that a Saturday?

MR. STOVITZ: I think it was a Friday. I think Friday.

MS. BRUNNER: Well anyway I saw the girls in the jail in the lock up there but they didn't lock up and then the next time we went to court after that, Monday or Tuesday after that and I didn't know what happened to them, you know - and all that and then I called Melba that day and asked if she (unintelligible) and bail me out. But Charlie was still in jail and she said she'd do it if she could and then later - eh I (unintelligible) she told me that Charlie said that he'd take care of it.

MR. STOVITZ: Who do you think eh - got Nancy and Lynn (unintelligible) saying these stories that Susan and Sadie just made up the stories about the Tate case? Do you believe them when they say that? That Sadie'd been talking about the Tate case (unintelligible)?

MS. BRUNNER: I haven't talked to Sadie.

MR. STOVITZ: Mary - eh - you're going to be kept in this hotel room so that no harm will come to you. We're not trying to keep you away from anything but harm and a lot of different things come to you oh - so it may very well be that after you testify tomorrow, we'll want you to remain till Monday because we don't know what Bobby Beausoleil's going to say in defense. We've heard of two things that we've heard number one, that he's going to blame Manson for doing all these things that he did. And if he does say that we would like you to hear that. See ordinarily once you testify in a case you're excluded as a witness and you can't stay in the court room but if he testifies as to Manson doing these things we want you to hear it, okay? He'll -

MS. BRUNNER: What for?

MR. STOVITZ: Just so that (unintelligible).

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: (unintelligible) in the other room.

MR. STOVITZ: Well just say that she's no longer a witness, that's all.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: No but she was a witness.

MS. BRUNNER: Why do you want me to listen to Bobby saying that, if he does say that?

MR. STOVITZ: Well, I - I don't know. I just want you to know what - how these people do things, you know, that they - they you know, they say anything they can to save themselves. And I don't think it's right. You see, the first trial Bobby didn't testify. I think (unintelligible) Charlie at the time. If you don't want to be in court you don't have to.

MS. BRUNNER: Yah, I don't you know -


MS. BRUNNER: - why do I want to make myself feel worse? I'm not that mad.

MR. STOVITZ: Okay - eh you will keep in touch with us when you get back or else we'll have to keep in touch with you and as much as you keep in touch with Mr.Manes.

MR. MANES: Well there no reason for her to actually make (unintelligible) calls here, is there?

MR. STOVITZ: No, it's just that when she does change her address or - eh

MS. BRUNNER: Well you know it through the Probation Department anyway.

MR. STOVITZ: Yah, well but you know, you're supposed to put a stamp on a letter to mail it oo, sometimes people forget to put stamps on letters. So we want you to make sure that you keep in touch with the people that you're supposed to keep in touch with when you change your address.

MR. MANES: I think it would be enough if she kept in touch with me.

MR. STOVITZ: That's right. That would be -

MR. MANES: You don't have to get in touch with anybody else.

MR. STOVITZ: Mr. Manes, is a very honorable man we trust him and he trust us. Eh - if you keep in touch with him them all we'd need to do is get in touch with him and so that -

MR. MANES: See the idea is that -

MR. STOVITZ: We don't want any harm to come to you -

MS. BRUNNER: Like if you have my address and phone number -


MS. BRUNNER: -- there's no reason to get in touch with you for anything unless I change it, -

MR. MANES: That's right.

MR. STOVITZ: That's right.

MR. MANES: That's all we care about.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I think what we're trying to impress upon you too Mary is if you change your address notify your probation officer in California. (unintelligible). If you move without notifying them you be in lot of trouble.

UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: That's the whole point of our getting you out from under it and otherwise it would (unintelligible) right?



MR. MANES: Once you're finished with it there won't be any consequence.

MR. STOVITZ: (Unintelligible)

MR. MANES: If you want to call me during the night just call my office exchange - have the exchange contact (unintelligible).


MR. STOVITZ: Okay. Good luck.

Background noise.