Bobby Beausoleil Granted Parole

Thursday, January 3rd, 2019

BEAUSOLEIL FOUND SUITABLE FOR RELEASE

Jan. 3 – Bobby Beausoleil was found suitable for parole today by the California Board of Parole Hearings.

Today’s decision will undergo a 120 day BPH review. If the grant withstands scrutiny, it will then be sent to newly elected Governor Gavin Newsom. Newsom will have five options. He may uphold, reverse or modify the decision. He may also send it back to the full BPH board to review en banc (meaning all 15 commissioners at a monthly meeting), or he may take no action. If he takes no action the grant moves forward.

Beausoleil has been incarcerated since June 23, 1970, serving a term of 7-years-to-life, for the 1969 murder of musician Gary Hinman. He was tried twice, the first resulting in hung jury and the second, a conviction. He was sentenced to death on April 15, 1970, but saw that sentence commuted to life when the death penalty was briefly outlawed.

Beausoleil has been denied parole 18 times since he became eligible on August 4th, 1976.

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96 Responses to Bobby Beausoleil Granted Parole

  1. Michael says:

    Drum roll as California’s new governor decides whether or not to let this stand. On the one hand, Davis was involved in more killings than Beausoleil, but I’m pretty sure Beausoleil’s prison record is more checkered than Davis. Do you think the Manson men (besides Watson) have a better chance than the women because they stood trial apart from Manson and didn’t exhibit the same repulsive behavior the girls did?

  2. Fred Bloggs says:

    I think the big difference between the women in the Family that stood trial and the guys was that the guys weren’t interested in experimenting with whether or not death was an illusion ! None of them wanted to die in the gas chamber. Both Bobby and Tex were more than happy to roll over and stick as much blame on Charlie Manson as they could and shortly after incarceration, both Clem and Bruce figured that they didn’t want to spend their lives in jail. So none of them took the fall for Charlie, whereas the women did. Which, interestingly reflected something Charlie told Al Springer only a few days after the murders ¬> “No matter what happens, the girls will take the fall for it.”
    I’d be fascinated to read the transcript of Bobby’s parole hearing and see which way it went. It would appear that the board buys his story of the Straight Satans involvement in the reasons why he was at Gary Hinman’s in the first place. This being the case, it may have an interesting knock on effect on the outcomes pending for Leslie Van Houten and Bruce Davis. I also think being that he was considered very young when the Hinman thing happened and that he’s getting on now, these things in combination with others may be working in his favour.

  3. Sasha Musgrave says:

    I think it is great that Bobby Beausoleil has been granted parole and about time too. I think he should be freed as the others should too. They are all getting on and should be considered for release especially Charles Watson! Let them go and spend the rest of their lives with their families. Manson is dead and gone and there is no reason to keep them where they are because they are all costing the California taxpayer alot of money to keep them in prison.

  4. Fred Bloggs says:

    Sasha Musgrave says:
    They are all getting on and should be considered for release especially Charles Watson!

    Even I wouldn’t argue that 48 years behind bars isn’t appropriate for someone that murdered 7 people. It’s not a short time but it certainly isn’t a harsh length of time.
    Bobby has been in jail this long primarily due to his own duplicity. The Manson connection would not have hurt as much if he’d played with a straight bat from the start. Or even after a few years.
    The same could be said of Bruce although he was long seen as more closely aligned with Charlie.
    It didn’t hurt Clem in the same way it hurt Leslie. And Susan & Pat can’t [or couldn’t] really complain. They, along with Tex, could have no issues about the length of time they’ve spent inside.
    But though they {and Manson} were legally guilty of 7 murders, when it comes down to the actuality of it, Tex and Tex alone dealt death blows to each of the victims of TLB. No one else in that spate of killings comes close. So I’m interested in your reasoning for “especially Charles Watson” to be paroled.

    there is no reason to keep them where they are because they are all costing the California taxpayer alot of money to keep them in prison

    Are you saying that it’s primarily a financial matter ?

  5. Kurt M Boylstein says:

    They all need to stay in jail anyone involved with tlb!Bobby did his time .

  6. Stephen Craig says:

    The ones who have truly been condemned to any/all forms of imprisonment without the availability/opportunity of parole are the victims and their survivors. BB participated in the torture and eventual murder of GH, an atrocity which apparently transpired over the course of a couple of days. And what makes this case even sadder (if possible) is that GH had considered the Family his “friends”, having let more than one of them stay at his house etc…So, GH loses his life in the most horrible of ways, and is buried before he is 35, his family left to pick up the wreckage caused by BB and attempt to make sense of what has happened and move on with the rest of their lives, forever damaged by this heinous crime. BB, however, is afforded the opportunity to age, spend time with his family during visits , write music, receive health care, is fed, supported, and in some cases sympathized with. And now, because he is getting on in years, some folks think he’s served “his time”, it’s time for him to go home to his family ( an opportunity that BB made sure GH would never have): For me, I couldn’t disagree more. The very least we as a compassionate society should do (IMO), in an attempt to afford a sense of “justice” in a case where there will never be truly any real justice, is to make sure that BB spends the rest of his days in jail, just as GH will spend the rest of eternity in his grave, denied many of the freedoms/opportunities that BB himself has enjoyed while being incarcerated.

  7. Michael says:

    My sympathy for Bobby is minimal, since by all accounts he wasn’t nearly as controlled by Manson as the TLB killers were.

    I’ve never felt that Charlie’s control exonerates any of them, and I still say none of them, Clem included, should ever be released. Still, if the Charlie-worshippers like Atkins and Van Houten were responsible for their actions despite their dependence on Manson, how much more responsible was the relatively independent Beausoleil?

    Besides which, as much as I oppose any of their paroles, I do see strains of remorse in the parole hearing transcripts of Van Houten and Krenwinkle that I didn’t see in Bobby’s hearings.

  8. Lee says:

    I’m sickened that these killers are getting parole grants, but I still don’t think Bobby is going to pass the review. He has lied so much in his hearings and dishonored Gary even further by claiming he murdered him over a drug burn. That part pissed me off the worst!

  9. Pauly says:

    What a waste of time. He’s not going anywhere.

  10. DONNA says:

    I think they should all be released after this many years except Watson and Krenwinkle with their convictions for 7 murders.

  11. Cybele Moon says:

    To Sasha Musgrave and all the so called sympathetic supporters of the Manson gang’s freedom , Bobby Beausoleil I believe is a sociopath with no remorse. He tortured a supposed “friend” of his for 2 or 3 days before stabbing him to death! Please! You want this piece of crazy walking around free- what if it was your son or brother who was murdered in this horrific way. I also read he had sold child porn drawings while incarcerated. He is a creep, plain and simple. There are some people who should never be freed and I believe he and the others are among them.

  12. Cybele Moon says:

    apparently part of a prison report at parole hearing of Beausoleil “Approximately mid-December of 1984 Inmate Beausoleil received in the institution mail a large manila envelope containing Xerox copies of the following. Number one, letters of correspondence with people from various states. These letters pertained to purchase orders of child pornography, ages between four and 12 years old. The types of orders were photographs, movies, tape cassettes and magazines. They were all specific as to what they preferred, age, sex and nationality.”

  13. Michael says:

    Whoa, Cybele, I hadn’t heard about that. Knowing this, the Board found him suitable for parole?!?

  14. Pam says:

    Donna, why should Tex be released? He butchered a fully developed baby in his mother’s belly
    You can’t be serious!!

  15. Donna says:

    Pam… I did not say Watson should be released. Read my post again.

  16. Pauly says:

    Those of you arguing as to whether or not Beausoleil should be released, need to stop.

    Beausoleil murdered a man, and brutally so. He took the life of a human being. Time served in prison will not ever forgive that. Nothing will ever forgive the taking of a life.

    NOTHING.

  17. Cybele Moon says:

    Michael, this is documented in a few places I found. If true it does boggle the mind. Perhaps these criminals are only being released due to the elderly parole program and an overburdened prison system.

  18. Michael says:

    I hope we see his most recent parole hearing transcript soon, which may shed more light on the board’s decision. This is the 4th Manson killer found suitable for parole, and the 3rd within the past few years. It looks to me like Bobby, Bruce, and Leslie may see freedom relatively soon, as wrong as I think that is.

    Although it’s never been as widely discussed as the Tate/LaBianca crimes, Hinman’s murder was the most drawn out of all the Manson-related killings we know of. For about three days the man suffered while being beaten, cut open, and terrorized in his own home. Imagine his horror and pain. I see no justice in Bobby walking away from that.

    If he is released, I think it will provide serious momentum for the releases of Leslie and Bruce, considering the drawn out savageness of Bobby’s actions compared to the horrendous but quicker savageness of Bruce and Leslie’s actions. I can’t imagine Bruce and Leslie’s attorneys not sharpening some arguments making those comparisons.

  19. Mitchmaster says:

    Watson’s book strikes me as the most truthful sounding of all the books written by or about the Family. In it, Tex takes plenty of blame – in no way does he push it on the girls, though he gives them their share of responsibility. He also puts Charlie firmly at the center of it all, particularly La Bianca night. I don’t see a compelling reason to let any of them out of jail.

    That said, I’d love to have Bobby show up at the premiere of Manson’s Girls, which is going to take place on the 50th anniversary of the murders this coming August. We got great reviews at the Hollywood Fringe Festival 2018, and won the award for Best Achievement in Songwriting. You have to see this musical to believe it, it’s a real toe-tapper!

  20. Cybele Moon says:

    Michael I don’t know if there is such a thing as real justice anymore, there are so many variables. The new Governor of Calif. seems to want to follow in the same lines as Brown from what little I have read so who knows. But yes, they may all get out now that they are over 70 and considered not dangerous (?).
    Still the soft, detached voices of those women as they have described the crimes again and again in interviews will forever chill me.

  21. Michael says:

    Mitchmaster, I read Watson’s book and I agree he doesn’t evade responsibility in his retelling of the crimes. I was really troubled, though, by the detached tone of his writing, a detachment Cybele mentions in her last comment about the girls.

    In fact, I was repulsed by his description of Sharon Tate, while begging for her baby’s life, as a “pathetic blonde.” What could possibly have moved him to refer to her that way, especially since when he wrote this 9 years after the crimes, he self-identified as a Christian who was remorseful. Is that how you talk about your victim when you’re remorseful?

    He also shows a near-total absence of feeling in his book. I kept looking for some earnest, detailed expression of sorrow for all he took, and all he inflicted, on those 2 nights, and I couldn’t find it. There are a few sentences – some before his account of the crimes, and some at the very end, but they seem awfully scant in light of the magnitude of the crimes.

    I dunno – maybe it takes years to really come to terms with something you’ve done when it’s that horrendous. But all in all, Watson’s book left me cold.

  22. Cybele Moon says:

    -a musical about the Manson Family!? omg
    I haven’t read Watson’s book. Truthfully, the born again Christian Manson family members even further confound and horrify me. I do believe in redemption and even rehabilitation
    but for some reason I’m not a big fan of banner waving and loudly proselytizing evangelicals who claim they’ve been saved. That always felt dangerous to me.
    Someone pointed me years back to a Susan Atkins segment where she was asking for parole in the name of her “lord and saviour Jesus Christ” and she repeated that often during the interview.” It was creepy and bizarre.

  23. Castor says:

    Which Watson book are you guys referring to?
    Did he write several? Please provide the Title and Year.

  24. Michael says:

    Castor, the book is titled “Will You Die for Me?” and it was published in 1978. It should be available on amazon.com. But better yet, you can read it for free on Watson’s website which is called Abounding Love Ministries. On that website, he has a PDF version of the entire book.

  25. Fred Bloggs says:

    Michael says:
    the book is titled “Will You Die for Me?” and it was published in 1978

    He also has a second one called “Right Hand Man Speaks Out” which was also free on his website. In some ways it’s the better book because it came out around 2005 or perhaps just before then and he’d had much more time to reflect and be affected by what he’d done. He’d also been confronted and forgiven by Rosemary LaBianca’s daughter.

    when he wrote this 9 years after the crimes, he self-identified as a Christian who was remorseful. Is that how you talk about your victim when you’re remorseful?
    He also shows a near-total absence of feeling in his book. I kept looking for some earnest, detailed expression of sorrow for all he took, and all he inflicted, on those 2 nights, and I couldn’t find it. There are a few sentences – some before his account of the crimes, and some at the very end, but they seem awfully scant in light of the magnitude of the crimes

    You know, it occurred to me that when that first book of his came out, although he’d been a Christian for about 4 years, he makes absolutely no mention of it in the book. It’s an odd book in some ways. It’s supposed to be a tome by a Christian who has committed the ultimate violation and recognizes the power of God’s love and forgiveness. But in the book, none of this comes out. He doesn’t even say that he abandoned Manson. He doesn’t really go deep in terms of any kind of recognition of what he’s done as regards how it affected the family members of the victims.
    His second book is better in that regard. It’s also worth pointing out that the merry go round of parole hearings had not begun in earnest when that book was being written and it was to take a lot more to impact on Tex’s life. When he was involved in that first book, he was a baby Christian really and it shows, or at least it does to me.

  26. Fred Bloggs says:

    Cybele Moon says:
    Truthfully, the born again Christian Manson family members even further confound and horrify me. I do believe in redemption and even rehabilitation but for some reason I’m not a big fan of banner waving and loudly proselytizing evangelicals who claim they’ve been saved. That always felt dangerous to me.
    Someone pointed me years back to a Susan Atkins segment where she was asking for parole in the name of her “lord and saviour Jesus Christ” and she repeated that often during the interview.” It was creepy and bizarre

    As a Christian myself, I can see it from both sides.
    To the Christian, it’s important to remember that these are realities. Whether one has murdered or not, discovering that Christ is more than just some historical guy we might have read about and then ignored is pretty momentous. It’s hard to be quiet about it initially. Knowing that one is forgiven and set on the right track with God and able to engage in an ongoing relationship is such a bang on the head. It eventually affects every aspect of one’s thinking, words and actions and has a marked effect on certain things done in the past.
    For someone in the situations of Bruce Davis, Charles Watson and Susan Atkins, I can so see why they would have gone on the way they did. To become a Christian in prison with no let up, no respite, nowhere to go to for any real peace and contemplation of how to live this new life can only be hard. It’s hard even on the outside but at least those of us not in prison have a ceratin room to breathe and aren’t surrounded by criminals and deviant thinking 24/7. I remember a couple of years back, reading about Tex complaining that his bible that he’d had for some 40 years had been stolen. I shouldn’t have but I did laugh. I thought “you’re in prison ! It shouldn’t have come as that much of a surprise !!” The irony of it all struck me as humorous. When my bible was stolen, the thieves smashed in my car window and also nicked the stereo and it was freezing driving home, I could barely grip the wheel. It struck me back then as being somewhat ironic and rather funny too. But within a couple of days, I could buy a new bible of my choice. The choices surrounding Tex, Susan, when she was alive and Bruce are very different and I think it’s to their credit that they’ve clung onto Christ, even if it sometimes makes them sound goofy or perhaps highlights that they needed some genuine feeling in their souls.
    As far as Watson goes, had it not been for Christ, it’s doubtful if he would have gone deep because I think he’s immensely self centered and would stay that way without God’s frequent challenge and assisstance to move away from that, bit by bit.
    In my opinion, both Atkins and Watson’s first autobiographies {“Child of Satan, Child of God” and “Will you die for me ?”} were written at the wrong time. While they do have a certain use in relation to Family life and the murders, both were immature Christians {they’d been believers for 3 and 4 years when the books came out} and that shows throughout both books. They’re comparable with “Slow Train Coming” and “Saved !”, two of the 4 albums Bob Dylan made when he went through his born again phase at the end of the 70s. The albums are fantastic musically and I dig them to bits, but Dylan the man does not come through on them. Doctrine and biblical passages do in almost parrot fashion although Dylan being Dylan knocks out words that were above average. By the time of “Shot of love” and “Infidels” the realities of the struggles of everyday living as a Christian had asserted themselves and the songs tell you much more about what Dylan actually felt and also, he was able to put many things in a context that wasn’t to be found on those first two. Watson and Atkins to me reflect this in their books, Watson to the extent that he doesn’t even talk about his conversion, what it meant and how it impacted him.
    I can understand why people don’t like them talking about being saved {‘rescued’ would be a better term} but it’s not vastly different to having a benefactor save you from having your house repossessed or buying up the organisation you work for so that you keep your job and on better wages. It would be hard not to talk about that at times.

  27. Cybele Moon says:

    Thanks for your input Fred. I suppose I think of all this saved business as decidedly North American in flavour. I never heard that in any of the more orthodox European churches as in those it seemed more an ongoing and lifetime contemplative effort for grace. I mean how many so called enthusiastically “saved” preachers were found to be ongoing sinners lol.
    oh well,
    But I suppose all fanatics remain fanatics whatever belief system they might embrace. I guess I could not get around thinking of the horror of their crimes to these now devout lip services to “my lord and saviour” who I believe was once Charlie. Nevertheless, if we do believe in a merciful Presence then I suppose there is mercy for them also.

  28. Gorodish says:

    Fred:
    You are totally on the mark when you refer to Tex Watson as “immensely self-centered”. His Christian conversion goes out the window, as far as I’m concerned, with his utter refusal to acknowledge his role in Shorty Shea’s murder. Three family members have put him in a central role in Shorty’s killing – two of them accomplices (Bruce Davis and Steve Grogan), the other being Mary Brunner. Even when backed into a corner at parole hearings, Watson remains closemouthed on Shorty. It’s weird; he freely describes his role in slaughtering 7 people (really 8 including the unborn Polanski baby). It may be because there is no statute of limitations on murder in California, although it is doubtful any case could or would be made against him, should he admit it. It makes me wonder if he mentioned Shorty to Bill Boyd, his original Texas attorney, and Boyd told him to never bring it up again. Another reason I would love to hear the infamous “Tex Tapes” from 1969.

  29. Fred Bloggs says:

    Gorodish says:
    You are totally on the mark when you refer to Tex Watson as “immensely self-centered”

    You know, I don’t ever recall him saying anything anywhere about having snuffed out the life of a baby before it had even begun, not even in relation to his own children. He’d mention Sharon Tate being pregnant, almost in passing, but nothing about the actual baby that could have been delivered if help had arrived within 15 or so minutes of his Mum dying.
    Although he tells the story of how he left Rosina to the mercy of Lotsapoppa and his friends, as far as I’ve come across his words, he has never spoken of the implications of such a move or how he feels about it and what that could have actually meant for Rosina. It’s little things like that that I notice about him.
    I do believe that his conversion to Christ was genuine and having gone through the same process myself, can only say that God works, not so much in mysterious ways {although that’s often true too} but in an order of priority that most of us wouldn’t. Sometimes, you see little things change in a person while big elephants dance in the room ! And one kind of thinks “God doesn’t appear to be on the ball there.” But after a length of time, and many challenges, one starts to see the logic of chipping away slowly, but surely.
    Self centredness isn’t the preserve of Charles Watson, it’s a thing pretty common to us as human beings. It comes across in different ways and in some like Tex, it’s just a lot more obvious than those of us that can mask it well or hide it better !

    His Christian conversion goes out the window, as far as I’m concerned, with his utter refusal to acknowledge his role in Shorty Shea’s murder

    I think he was involved in that crime, not so much because of all the people that mentioned his name {Bruce, Clem, Mary Brunner, Kitty Lutesinger, Danny Decarlo} but because Charlie stated that he “doesn’t know that Tex was there.” When Charlie would dance, I’d study the steps !
    But recently on another blog, you seriously made me pull up short when you mentioned that he might not have been part of it. It was sufficiently effective to make me think, I’d better be careful how I put his involvement because in reality, there’s no actual proof of it ! I genuinely like your writing. It pretty much always thoughtful and thought provoking.

    Three family members have put him in a central role in Shorty’s killing – two of them accomplices (Bruce Davis and Steve Grogan), the other being Mary Brunner

    When the police spoke with Mary, Shorty was kind of a side issue. After all, at the time, there wasn’t even any suspicion of him being dead other than what Al Springer and Danny DeCarlo had said. And that went hand in hand with the police not being able to find any reports of a Black Panther that had been killed, despite Springer saying this is what he’d been told by the Family. Whereas with the Cielo and LaBianca slayings, there was mounting evidence and they were the cases that it seemed everyone was freaking out about. So the Shorty matter didn’t really get taken that seriously. The various police agencies never knew whether Shea would walk into Chatsworth one day. And as a result, Mary was a better bet as a witness against Bobby in the Hinman matter. Not that long after turning state’s evidence, she herself was in jail for the Hawthorne robbery and was not in any frame of mind to be talking to LE, especially as they tried to prosecute her for trying to recant her statement in Bobby’s trial.
    As for Bruce and Clem, in the early days of any investigation, they were tight lipped and were saying nothing because they didn’t want to implicate themselves. It wasn’t until the early 80s or possibly ’79 that Clem started mentioning Tex in regards to Shorty and I think it was the early 90s when Bruce did. And in both instances, it came up during their parole hearings rather than as part of any police investigation. But most tellingly, they contradicted each other’s stories which rather took the fizz of credibility away. It’s amazing how with each of the witnesses that could have spoken against Tex, he somehow managed to weasel his way out of any bother ~ without actually doing or saying anything !
    I wouldn’t mind betting Charlie Manson was foaming at the mouth that Tex didn’t even have to make any effort when he put so much effort into trying to evade justice yet the more effort he made, the deeper in the mire he was stuck !
    I have a strange sense of humour and things like that I find genuinely funny.
    Going back to Bruce and Clem for a moment, regardless of what they said about Tex stabbing Shorty {and both had to admit they didn’t actually see him do it, although from their stories, it was obvious he did}, there was nothing to corroborate their stories. The DA’s office basically said that the reason they didn’t prosecute him was because at the time he was facing death 7 times over for TLB and so what was the point. But once the death sentences were commuted to life, they didn’t go for him on Shea, which kind of indicates that they didn’t really have a case.

    Even when backed into a corner at parole hearings, Watson remains closemouthed on Shorty. It’s weird; he freely describes his role in slaughtering 7 people (really 8 including the unborn Polanski baby)

    I think part of it is that there was no evidence of him having anything to do with Shorty and at the time he wasn’t charged with that murder. It came up during his trial, something that Paul Watkins had apparently said to a paper and Tex’s lawyer brought it up in court and was fuming. It always gets closed down when brought up ~ and always by the lawyer. We both recently noted over at Mansonfamilyblog [I write there as ‘grimtraveller’] that in neither his books nor in any interview we’d ever seen of his does he even mention Shorty. He doesn’t even mention him as a character that hung around or worked at the ranch.
    If he did murder Shorty {and between them, Bruce & Clem have opened up the possibility that he didn’t, not to mention stuff about him being chopped up not being true ~ in other words, there’s sufficient doubt surrounding the whole case}, he would appear to have gotten away with that one but he’s playing a somewhat dangerous game where God is concerned.

    it is doubtful any case could or would be made against him, should he admit it

    I think the opposite ~ admitting it would provide the evidence that currently doesn’t exist. Admitting it would make the case.

    Another reason I would love to hear the infamous “Tex Tapes” from 1969

    Same here. I’d seriously love to hear those tapes. But I don’t think he talks about Shorty on them and I’ll tell you why. He wasn’t averse to LAPD hearing the tapes recently. He didn’t want the tapes publicly aired {he says, to spare the families of the victims further heartache} but had no problem having them turned over to the Police. Now, I think his memory is pretty fuzzy and was so even back in ’78 and the early 2000s when he did his 2 books {there’s an argument that Chaplain Ray Hoekstra was the main writer of “Will you die for me ?”} but even he would recall if he’d admitted to murdering Shorty on those tapes ! When he made those tapes, he wasn’t angling for the psychiatric defence.

  30. Chuck says:

    I totally agree – being ‘born again’ isn’t some cosmic get out of jail free card. You’re still responsible for what you did and you still have the Earthly punishment. These people who believe they’re neither responsible for what they did (God’s will) nor accountable for the results (forgiven) are making up their own Bible, certainly not following it.

  31. Pam says:

    “I do believe that his conversion was genuine” There’s a fool born everyday. Watson is nothing but a born con artist who was using God to get out of jail and that’s why he constantly mentions it during every parole.Jail house religion, the oldest con game in prison.

  32. Cybele Moon says:

    I agree that conversion ( genuine or not) doesn’t equal a get out of jail ticket.
    But my last thoughts on the Bobby Beausoleil parole is WHAT IS THE PAROLE BOARD THINKING!!!?- a murderer, torturer and purveyor of child porn free to walk among us after years of denying him because of the elderly parole program and the youthful offender act? The California justice system needs an overhaul. Even the original death sentences (so final) that became life with the chance of parole after 7 years never made sense to me. These people made their beds long ago, thumbed their noses at law abiding “piggies” and committed savage murders to make a statement for a criminally insane con man named Manson. People have never forgotten the horror. I hope they have found redemption but they need to stay where they are.

  33. Pam says:

    In the book, Restless Soul, Doris Tate fought successfully to remove Watson has prison chaplain at CMC when she found out he was using it to obtained special privileges as well as tax exempts charities of $1200 dollars a month. After Doris Tate called for an investigation and notified the media, Watson was “removed from his assignment in the Protestant chapel at CMC.” So much for genuine conversion!

  34. Donna says:

    Watson just traded one god for another, and in both cases he thinks he is the chosen one.

  35. Fred Bloggs says:

    Pam says:
    In the book, Restless Soul, Doris Tate fought successfully to remove Watson has prison chaplain at CMC when she found out he was using it to obtained special privileges as well as tax exempts charities of $1200 dollars a month. After Doris Tate called for an investigation and notified the media, Watson was “removed from his assignment in the Protestant chapel at CMC.” So much for genuine conversion!

    And how long ago was that ?
    If it was a con, why carry it on for a further 27 years when it clearly has not gotten him anywhere close to parole ?
    Sometimes, people really need to think outside their own box.

    There’s a fool born everyday

    And what day were you born on, Pam ?

    Watson is nothing but a born con artist who was using God to get out of jail and that’s why he constantly mentions it during every parole

    Well, let’s have a look at that and see how the actual facts stack up.
    Watson became a Christian in 1974. One would imagine in “Will you die for me ?” that he’d be waxing eloquent about his conversion to Christ but he does not mention it once. The book ends before the point at which he’d converted. In fact, one of the truly interesting aspects of the book is his struggle in accepting the reality of God’s input in his life and even though he was starting to bend towards God, when it came to his trial, clearly tells us how he abandoned God and God’s ways and went for what he calls ‘self preservation’ and basically lied his balls off. And it netted him a death sentence. It was not with any ease that he eventually capitulated to Christ. And many people that choose to follow Christ would say pretty much the same thing. I certainly can concur with that.
    When he had his first parole hearing in 1978, he obviously wanted to get out of jail. He naturally explained to the PB about his new found faith in Christ and how that was changing him. Stephen Kay commented how good it was that he was now a Christian and pointed out that he had been found guilty of 7 murders and he was not going to be coming out of any prison but should basically continue to do his ‘good works’ in jail and stay there. The irony of Kay’s 1978 remarks is that that is more or less what Watson has had to do.
    If anything, it was getting married and starting to have children that Watson saw as his route out of jail. He said as much back in 1990. Without a doubt Watson mentions Christ at every parole hearing ~ as far as he’s concerned, that’s what has injected even a bit of humanity into him. But what has the net result been ? Has it been parole board members gushing at the mouth and saying what a good little Christian he’s been ? Au contraire, it’s actually counted against him !. No one on any of those boards can understand what the heck he’s talking about. When they tell him he needs some kind of counselling to show that he’s working on himself, a la Leslie Van Houten, he says no, Christ is sorting him out and that just counts further against him as it looks like he’s refusing help that they are prepared to give and can acknowledge and understand. Perhaps it needs a Christian to really see this but I can assure you with no fear nor favour that Tex Watson would have to be earth’s greatest idiot to imagine that being a Christian would con anyone into thinking that he can now be released from prison.
    There was a fascinating happening back in the early 90s when Rosemary LaBianca’s daughter, Suzan LaBerge, also became a Christian and as part of a prison visiting programme contacted Watson and ended up visiting him in jail. She hadn’t told him who she was and of course, he had no reason to recognize her or her name. After a period of time, she revealed who she was and because they were both in Christ, they found that they had to see one another in a completely different light. Anyway, she spoke up in support for him at a parole hearing. I have long said that her heart was in the right place but her Christian maturity wasn’t, not at that time. She was able to forgive and because of that, she saw beyond civil justice because that’s often what happens when you no longer hold something against somebody.
    But he’s still in prison. His marriage crumbled. He admitted that he’d had experiences with God so deep that he was able to really start seeing how he’d impacted the victims of his crimes and their families and society as a whole. And did the PB say, what a nice deep Christian fellow this Charles is ? No, they said what have you been feeling for the previous 20 or whatever years when you’ve been telling us what God has been doing in your life !?!
    He was stabbed in jail a few years ago. He’s been exposed continually in parole hearings and given 5 year denials. The simple reality for those that care to see it is that at every turn, being a Christian has cost Charles Watson and cost him dear when it comes to getting out of jail. It has not brought him any advantages. Yes, back in the late 80s/early 90s he fell into stupid and unwise behaviour regarding his “ministry” and he paid the price for that. There again, right around the same time Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggart and others fell into similar behaviour with consequences.
    You know, when people take the line that Watson “got into religion as a con game to get him out prison” I ask myself if they really have the slightest understanding of what they are saying. I can understand someone saying “I don’t believe Watson’s conversion due to him never saying anything about Sharon Tate being hung when the evidence points in that direction or about his involvement or even lack of involvement in Shorty Shea’s death” because that’s pretty specific. But in general terms, discounting someone’s faith because you dislike the person or what they did before they had that faith seems rather ignorant to me. If one really thinks he’s running a con with God to get out of jail, yet 45 years after his conversion he’s still in, and despite all the setbacks still talks about God to parole boards, then I have to conclude that you have your own agenda at play there because the actual evidence does not support the assertion.

    Jail house religion, the oldest con game in prison

    Does that statement come from your own experience of [a]Jail, [b]God, [c]con artists and/or [d] people in general ?

  36. Cybele Moon says:

    Fred, there is sadly someone I do know of who became religious in prison but once out went back to his old ways. There is truth to the old “jail house conversion” theories. I have heard this often happens. I understand wanting to believe they are genuine and perhaps in their own way some are. People like Watson might as well be and I hope he is, as all of them are closer to meeting the Maker now, and what they once did was purely evil. But as the other fool, Pam implies, I’m sure being a Pastor and guidance counselor in prison gives you prestige and has it’s perks also. Kudos for Doris Tate by the way. At one parole hearing the converted Watson who had been allowed conjugal visits for heaven sake talked about how much his children meant in front of a woman whose family he murdered!! I could be more sympathetic myself if they didn’t thump their bibles and stayed low key but they like the limelight and they like being noticed I bet. I hate sounding cynical and I am suspicious, but I have been honoured to know some truly spiritual folk too.

  37. Pam says:

    Fred, the incident with Doris Tate occurred when Watson was about 15 years into his alleged religious conversion which is a very long time. Doris Tate also found he was running religious scams in the prison which financially benefited him and his family. Does this sound sincere to you?

  38. Cybele Moon says:

    Pam the fact that a multiple murderer felt in his Christianity that it would be a good thing to father children and was even allowed to do it ( imagine the burden those poor innocents have to carry) in prison boggles my mind. To me that only further shows his lack of insight and Christian forbearance.

  39. Michael says:

    I can believe that anyone, mass murderers included, can have a sincere conversion experience. I also believe a committed Christian can still be seriously wrong. Atkins and Watkins are good examples of this. They may have come to know God through Christ, but Christianity hardly makes anyone perfect.

    Which leads me to my biggest beef with Watson (and the now-deceased Atkins), especially in light of their professions of faith. They both knew that there was nothing they could do to repay what they took from their victims or their victim’s families. Yet they retained a life-long moral indebtedness to those families. The one thing they COULD do was/is to not add to the pain those families already feel, and they both know (or knew) that their release would have been excruciating for those families, especially the parents, spouses, and children of their victims.

    Why, then, as professing Christ-followers, would they not do the one thing they could do for their victim’s families, which is to not compound their agony by seeking parole? They must both have known that for them to walk free would add a crushing weight of pain to the people they owed an unpayable debt to.

    Would it really have been too much for them to simply say, “After all the misery I caused, I’ve been given a second chance at life, along with marriage, children, and the opportunity to create and function, all of which I denied my victims. I therefore owe their families the decency of not adding to the pain I’ve already caused them by seeking parole.”

    They’re willingness to seek parole, knowing the pain it would cause, has always caused me to question not their faith, but the extent to which that faith influences their consideration for the people they permanently crippled.

  40. Stephen Craig says:

    RE Michael’s comment: In order to do what you’ve so eloquently suggested, the convicted would truly have to be remorseful and accept total responsibility for the crimes they were originally sentenced to death for, something I believe they are not. Yes, they do take responsibility on certain levels for their acts, and state that they have a sense of “remorse”; but any accountability is qualified by bringing in Manson/his influence; the drug use; the isolation in which they lived; broken home lives, etc…It’s as if, “Yes I ultimately committed the crime, but it wasn’t entirely my fault (victim of circumstance/the culture)so, hence I’m completely at culpable”. Now, I understand that many of you may believe in everything that the defendant’s have claimed over the years in terms of outside influences that brought them to those two homes on those tragic nights, but for me, I have always felt that in order to kill as they did, there was something “inside” of them already that existed, some kind of “mutation” that allowed them to not only kill, but to kill with such brutality. To put it simply: I believe that people like these defendant’s and their ilk are simply born “bad”.

  41. Stephen Craig says:

    RE Michael’s comment: In order to do what you’ve so eloquently suggested, the convicted would truly have to be remorseful and accept total responsibility for the crimes they were originally sentenced to death for, something I believe they are not. Yes, they do take responsibility on certain levels for their acts, and state that they have a sense of “remorse”; but any accountability is qualified by bringing in Manson/his influence; the drug use; the isolation in which they lived; broken home lives, etc…It’s as if, “Yes I ultimately committed the crime, but it wasn’t entirely my fault (victim of circumstance/the culture)so, hence I’m completely not culpable”. Now, I understand that many of you may believe in everything that
    the defendant’s have claimed over the years in terms of outside influences that brought them to those two homes on those tragic nights, but for me, I have always felt that in order to kill as they did, there was something “inside” of them already that existed, some kind of “mutation” that allowed them to not only kill, but to kill with such brutality. To put it simply: I believe that people like these defendant’s and their ilk are simply born “bad”.

  42. Stephen Craig says:

    Apologies to all for re-sending: I meant to edit/change “at culpable” to “not culpable”, and inadvertently re-sent.

  43. Fred Bloggs says:

    Cybele Moon says:
    there is sadly someone I do know of who became religious in prison but once out went back to his old ways

    As a Christian for the last 34 years, I can sadly report that not only is that not confined to people that “become religious” in jail, it is not at all unusual. It’s sad and hurts many people on both sides of the equation, but it’s not unusual. Bob Dylan became a Christian…he went back to his old ways. I know quite a few people that have done likewise and none of them were remotely criminal. A relationship with Christ is like any relationship ~ one has to choose to stay in it and one is free to leave it at any point. It’s not an easy, feet up life. It’s pretty difficult at times, especially when one is faced with the kind of dilemmas that one never has to face when God isn’t part of the picture. And that’s kind of my point about Watson. He could check out at any moment but 45 years on, there he still is.

    I understand wanting to believe they are genuine and perhaps in their own way some are

    That made me sit up and take notice. Do I actually want to believe Watson, Atkins and Davis are/were genuine ? Particularly in the light of their lives since their conversions and the way some things have been revealed progressively, for example, only pretty late in the day has Bruce Davis come clean about his actions and involvement in Shorty’s murder. It doesn’t seem to say much for God if people that are supposedly saved and following Christ act in such ways.
    But I’m not God. The almighty has an agenda and reserves of patience, tolerance and love that, let’s face it, we can sing and make noise about but can’t really fathom. Michael is bang on the money when he says “They may have come to know God through Christ, but Christianity hardly makes anyone perfect.” It really is a journey that takes place over a lifetime and that does unfortunately mean that whatever wilful acts one might engage in as a Christian, knowing them to be wrong, are going to be pounced on by others and God doesn’t let people get off scott free when we know better. That said, God doesn’t dwell on our wrongdoings like the rest of us and often uses the fallout to smooth down those rough edges that need to go.
    You know, there are many people I’ve heard professing to be Christians and I spend a long time checking them out and at the end of the day, I just don’t believe them. Susan Atkins was pretty borderline. I didn’t know Bruce was a Christian but one day back in 1994, I was watching this documentary in which he speaks a few times and I could just tell by what he said that he either was or had been and a decade later when I started using the internet {I was a late convert !}, found that my initial thoughts were confirmed. It was through Charlie Manson that I learned Tex had become a Christian.
    Now, I know that the one move guaranteed to bring all the flak of cyberspace raining down on one’s head is to say anything that even appears to be in defence of Charles Watson. However, because of my own experience with Christ, defend him I must ~ where I think it is appropriate to do so. It’s not a matter of wanting to believe he’s genuine. I don’t shirk away from his flaws {or mine for that matter} and I’ve called his actions out many times over the last 4 years on 5 different sites. But I do believe he’s genuine about Christ. Perfect ? No. Flawed ? Yes ~ like any one of us that are negotiating our way through this life with God’s guidance. For me, it’s highly significant that it is only in prison that the reality of Christ has come to him. Christ doesn’t make anyone perfect overnight, much less in a prison environment. And at the risk of sounding a bit bible thumpy, the new testament is filled with examples of people who were close to Christ or in at the vanguard of that spiritual experience that changed their world, that took years to change {Peter and his racism, for example}. God picks up flawed people and bit by bit makes us less flawed.

    I’m sure being a Pastor and guidance counselor in prison gives you prestige and has it’s perks also

    I don’t doubt that this may be an outcome in some situations. But what has it brought Watson ? A knife in the back and getting written up 40 years ago for accepting an apple or something that he shouldn’t have, which still gets brought up at hearings today. I’d say it works both ways. But even if it is all perks and privileges, the question is, is it a con ? 45 years worth ? And was it something he thought about before stating that he was a Christian ? And furthermore, there would have to be some evidence of results and outcomes. I saw a documentary on this prison in South America where the authorities basically left the running of the jail to the inmates. It was a violent place full of violent men but the authorities were content {with reservations} to let the inmates run it because they could see, at least for a time, that there was order and progress in ways that there weren’t when they ran the jail ! If there are perks, it’s partly because of the effectiveness that’s there for all to see.

    I could be more sympathetic myself if they didn’t thump their bibles and stayed low key but they like the limelight and they like being noticed I bet

    Cybele, how do you get to hear of any of the ex-Family members parole dates or outcomes ? Whose idea was it to have cameras in there ? Who is it that, when they get wind of the upcoming hearing, floods the airwaves with requests to send in letters of protest ?
    When you say they should stay low key, tell me, when have they publicized themselves ? I think you might find they’d all be quite happy never to be noticed again because being noticed dredges up a whole host of stuff that ultimately helps keep them where they are.
    As for thumping their bibles, well, that is because they feel that contained in those bibles are words and concepts that go a long way towards explaining the changes they’ve gone through.

  44. Cybele Moon says:

    Thanks very much Fred for replying to me. I do get that you are speaking from your own experience with faith. Having been raised good old Catholic and my husband Greek Orthodox, I never felt that fervour about being “saved” as other Christian sects do. Don’t get me wrong, it is always a struggle to keep in the light so to speak but I have changed over the years and after (casually) studying Buddhism for a while I see a lot of light and wisdom there too. My whole idea of faith and spirituality has totally evolved and changed. I do know faith can bring about positive change for many but the “I found it” people can also be frightening and condemning and intolerant. I don’t know Watson’s walk with the Lord but I agree with Michael in that he and the others want to be free even if it causes pain to their victims and another thing is that he felt that it was ok to bring children into the world to bear his terrible legacy which shows ( to me) a complete lack of insight and much selfishness. Maybe he may have thought he was doing “God’s Will,’ which by the way is another aspect that scares the h— out of me given the light of what is going on in the world today among fanatics of faith. I’m afraid I remain unsympathetic with all of their plights to leave prison.

  45. Fred Bloggs says:

    Pam says:
    the incident with Doris Tate occurred when Watson was about 15 years into his alleged religious conversion which is a very long time. Doris Tate also found he was running religious scams in the prison which financially benefited him and his family. Does this sound sincere to you?

    15 years into his conversion would make this 1989/90. There was still a Soviet Union in 1989/90. There was still a communist bloc though it was disintegrating. Nelson Mandela was still in prison and apartheid was still South Africa’s system. Margeret Thatcher was just rolling out the poll tax, Charles and Diana were still married, there was no internet, no Euro and the UK only had 4 TV channels. There were no MP3s, no flat screen TVs, records and cassettes were still being sold in huge quantities. George Bush snr was the new president of the USA and names like Gorbachev were frequently in the news.
    It was a long time ago. People, even believers in Christ, do unwise and stupid things. They move on from them. Life is a continuum.

    Michael says:
    Why, then, as professing Christ-followers, would they not do the one thing they could do for their victim’s families, which is to not compound their agony by seeking parole?

    As logical as that sounds, it’s actually not at all.
    Being a follower of Christ first and foremost means that your debt was to God and God has written that off. They are not in debt to the families of their victims. I understand that that seems really harsh and even looking at it on the screen, I can see how that can come across, but a question has to be asked ~ where does one draw the line ? Which family members would they be in continued debt to ? To which generations ? What happens if the present generation all die off ? Are they released from that debt ?
    Fact is, the debt is primarily to society and each society has its ways of dealing with those that violate it. California has dealt with the killers and continues to deal with them. Part of the way society dealt with them was in handing them a sentence that included the possibility of parole. Not the guarantee of it, but the possibility of it. We’re all hugely critical of the Manson troupe’s willingness to jettison the laws of its covering society at the time of the murders {and indeed, before it, which gave rise to the conditions that eventually led to murder}, but then some of us encourage them to do just that when it comes to parole because we don’t like the idea of them being out of prison. Parole is not something that was invented by any member of the killing fraternity. It’s part of the law that California society operates under. The simple fact of the matter is that unless one takes the path Suzan LaBerge, Rosemary LaBianca’s daughter, took in forgiving Tex Watson {and, one presumes, the other murderers}, then it really matters not what any of the professing Christian inmates do because they can’t do anything that’s going to make anyone feel in any way better. The family members of the victims do not allow him to in any way make amends because how can anyone ?
    It should be noted that Watson is still in jail. He’s been there now for 10 months short of half a century. I wouldn’t be surprised if he died there and he couldn’t complain if he did. I’d say that on all fronts, the law is working well. His right under the law to be heard in relation to parole is exercised, the state’s right to refuse him parole under current circumstances is exercised, the families right to protest at the idea of him being freed is exercised. The result may not always be the same as it has been since 1978. For him to say “I’m not going to apply for parole, ever” is tantamount to him saying, “I’m going to live off the state with my free healthcare and food, thank you very much.” As a man following Christ, that’s insulting on any number of levels. He’s lived his whole Christian life in jail. He’s 73. If any of us were in his position and there was the possibility of trying to do some good in society we’d take it.
    One final point. For all his flaws and through all his parole setbacks, Tex nevertheless works on being improved. Not perhaps the way each of us might do it or appreciate it, but continues to. There’s a lesson in that somewhere.

  46. Bones says:

    I think Bobby is a supremely talented artist, highly intelligent and seems to be a spiritual person. I just believe though that he was not only the catalyst for Tate/Labianca , but he was part of the conspiracy. The girls frequently visited Bobby in jail after his arrest, and I have no doubt they were working on a copy cat situation. I don’t think he would be a current threat though .

  47. snoop says:

    Tex is devoid of any humanity . Manson was not lying when he said “No one can kill like Tex”

  48. Pam says:

    Here’s the paradox for me, I firmly believe that being a sociopath is inconsistent with being a Christian. According to the APA, sociopaths lokevWatson can never be cured, you can’t make them feel empathy for others At his last hearing, Debra Tate called out Watson for saying her mother got cancer because she couldn’t forgive him. A true Christian would have understood Doris Tate’s desire for justice, not that sociopath who could butcher 7 people without mercy

  49. Pam says:

    Snoop, speak truth to power!

  50. Fred Bloggs says:

    Stephen Craig says:
    Yes, they do take responsibility on certain levels for their acts, and state that they have a sense of “remorse”; but any accountability is qualified by bringing in Manson/his influence; the drug use; the isolation in which they lived; broken home lives, etc…It’s as if, “Yes I ultimately committed the crime, but it wasn’t entirely my fault (victim of circumstance/the culture)so, hence I’m completely not culpable”

    I suppose one could look at it that way but I don’t. I have worked with children that went on to commit murder and there really are a mixed bag of events and influences that could have had a bearing. But aside from one of them that was mentally ill {she murdered her partner and her 6 year old daughter}, none of the others had an excuse because there are no excuses. But there were combinations of influences, events and circumstances in their lives. For them to explain the part those things played doesn’t mean that it was because of those things that they murdered.

    Now, I understand that many of you may believe in everything that the defendant’s have claimed over the years in terms of outside influences that brought them to those two homes on those tragic nights

    We like straightforward simple answers to complex matters and sometimes, that’s what is there. Other times, it’s not. Personally, I evaluate what the killers say and you know something ? I’m not afraid to acknowledge that they could be telling the truth. You know why ? I’ll tell you. It’s because none of them were forced to do what they did. Anything in mitigation isn’t there to excuse and justify.

    in order to kill as they did, there was something “inside” of them already that existed, some kind of “mutation” that allowed them to not only kill, but to kill with such brutality

    Soldiers are trained to kill, sometimes in defence, sometimes in “defence.” Are they born with something inside them ?

    To put it simply: I believe that people like these defendant’s and their ilk are simply born “bad”

    I’d love to agree with that. Reality however, dictates that I can’t. You see, until a particular circumstance brings out a particular action in a person, you can’t know that you’re not one of the “born bad” people.

  51. Cybele Moon says:

    Pam said “At his last hearing, Debra Tate called out Watson for saying her mother got cancer because she couldn’t forgive him.” He did!!?? oh I wonder why a three or a five year old gets cancer! This kind of “spiritual” we bring things on ourselves reasoning makes me so angry I’ll probably get some incurable disease too.
    Apparently the wonderful guide dog trainer Miss Krenwinkel made a similar statement in Nikki Meredith’s book about Abigail Folger being a drug user and therefore was somehow responsible for her own horrific end. Unbelievable!! and then when Meredith hesitated to endorse her parole plea at the time she refused to see her anymore.
    We are dealing with some very aberrant personalities folks. Just because they have finally found God doesn’t mean they are not still abnormal. Fred might venture to say that we all are somewhat abnormal, however……!!

  52. Michael says:

    Statements like the ones you cited, Cybele, are pretty repugnant. To what extent they prove what’s going on in the heads of these people, or to what extent they represent stupid verbal slips, I really don’t know. But they’re repugnant any way you cut it.

    Still, I don’t know them and can’t judge their sincerity or lack of it. But I would be more convinced of their remorse if they had at least held off on seeking parole as long as their victims parents, spouses, or children were alive. Their debt to society (which was effected pretty severely by these crimes) is far less than their debt to the families, who were effected more than anyone besides the victims. Not that I think Watson or Krenwinkle are going anywhere soon anyway. Of course the law allows them to seek parole, but my issue isn’t whether or not they can. It’s whether or not they should.

    My wife and I are going to Hawaii tomorrow but it’ll be good to catch up on the Beausoliel situation when I get back in two weeks. I’m very curious to see Gov. Newsome’s response. My wife doesn’t share my interest in this case so I hold off when we’re traveling.

  53. Fred Bloggs says:

    Fred Bloggs says:
    Watson became a Christian in 1974

    Actually, it was May 1975.

    You know, I don’t ever recall him saying anything anywhere about having snuffed out the life of a baby before it had even begun, not even in relation to his own children. He’d mention Sharon Tate being pregnant, almost in passing, but nothing about the actual baby

    To be fair, in his 2016 parole hearing, he does actually mention the baby by name as he does a roll call of apologies for the lives he wrecked.

    Cybele Moon says:
    I never felt that fervour about being “saved” as other Christian sects do

    As time goes by and God shows one the increasing depth of their flaws and how one is being changed from that, it can produce a gratitude and love that is hard to contain sometimes. It comes out in different ways, some loud, some cringey, some quietly sincere and some quite ignorant. And some quite fervent.

    I do know faith can bring about positive change for many but the “I found it” people can also be frightening and condemning and intolerant

    Unfortunately, true. I’ve had my condemning and intolerant moments, if I’m honest. But as I keep saying, it’s a growing process. Christians are no less human than anyone else and no less prone to making mistakes that we actually regret for life. There are lots of things I wish I’d never said, thought or done.

    he felt that it was ok to bring children into the world to bear his terrible legacy which shows ( to me) a complete lack of insight and much selfishness

    Well, I completely agree with that. But that’s not something for which all the blame lays at his door. Firstly, the state allowed that. Secondly, his wife consented to that. Both the state and his wife showed equal lack of insight there. On the other hand, who are we to deny his ex-wife the freedom to love a man, to know him better than the rest of us, to take advantage of the system of conjugal rights among inmates and to have children with someone she loved at the time ? It should be noted that both of them were hopeful of a parole date when they started having kids.

    I’m afraid I remain unsympathetic with all of their plights to leave prison

    I’m kind of neutral about it. I understand why they’d want to be paroled. Were I in their position, I’d want to get out of jail, especially if I sincerely regretted what I’d done.
    If their sentence had been LWOP, there wouldn’t even be this conversation and they would have just lived out the rest of their existence in jail.
    They might still have to.

    Bones says:
    The girls frequently visited Bobby in jail after his arrest, and I have no doubt they were working on a copy cat situation

    Well, you better start doubting because that’s simply untrue. No one visited Bobby prior to the murders, let alone ‘frequently.’ He wasn’t even transported to LA until the 7th August ~ the murderers set off for Cielo on the night of the 8th. On this site, on the Bobby Beausoleil page are the documents and reports pertaining to his first trial. Have a look through those and you’ll see that Bobby could not have been part of any planning. Even Manson wasn’t around that day.

    snoop says:
    Tex is devoid of any humanity. Manson was not lying when he said “No one can kill like Tex”

    Tex said a few years ago “I don’t know why the death penalty was abolished in 1972. It doesn’t seem too cruel or unusual for what I did….if anyone deserved the death penalty, it was me”
    I think without Christ, he would have continued to be devoid of humanity.

    Pam says:
    Here’s the paradox for me, I firmly believe that being a sociopath is inconsistent with being a Christian

    Well, it isn’t. Has Tex ever been actually diagnosed as sociopathic as opposed to people just saying that’s what he is ? Even if he had, God through Christ is all about damaged people. Hopeless people. People going nowhere and people who acknowledge that their efforts aren’t enough and need something. Real collections of believers in Christ comprise of people with a variety of mental illnesses, scary tendencies {sociopaths and pschopaths, take note !}, people that have stolen, killed, cheated, abandoned their families, are dependent on booze or a litany of drugs, both legal and illegal, the broken, the sick, the lazy, the ‘entitled’ etc, etc. Gradually, God patches people like us together and enables us to live the way human beings should. Not everyone makes it, not everyone wants to go the whole hog, every one of us falls and fails numerous times. Some stay down, some wallow in self pity, some get back up. Many have done all three at varying times. Every negative condition or mode of being you care to name is consistent with being a Christian because being a Christian is a tacit admission that you need God’s everyday input to get through. And bit by bit, one gets cleaned up ~ if they’re willing. Odd as it may sound, not everybody wants to. But if Tex was a sociopath when he met with Christ, that would have been the beginning of a move away from sociopathy.

    At his last hearing, Debra Tate called out Watson for saying her mother got cancer because she couldn’t forgive him

    She said a number of things in that hearing that she should have been called out on because they were inaccurate. Watson had been asked a question {recorded in his 2nd book} “It’s pretty well known that resentment and anger have a negative effect on people, do you agree ?” to which he replied “Yes I do. If we allow our hearts and minds to be taken over by resentment and anger, it can only have a harmful physical effect; this is known as a psycho-somatic illness. The psyche is the mind, which has an effect on the soma – the body….Victims can easily justify allowing bitterness to grow. They have been hurt tremendously and anger is a natural response of the vindictive nature of mankind. But this does not help or make it right. It will cause cancerous disease and create another victim”.
    In truth, many people believe that. I have discussions of that nature with people all the time. I personally don’t agree that it can only have a harmful effect resulting in disease and I acknowledge that Debra felt it keenly as her sister had died of cancer and her Mum had died of cancer but what she says Watson said, he did not say. Debra also went on to say “I would like to make note to my unborn nephew who suffocated slowly because his mother didn’t have any blood in her bloodstream. He was alive for hours while these people went to the refrigerator and fed their needs.” I’m generally uncomfortable when someone tries to drag out the stops in making someone look worse than they are. You can’t get worse than taking someone’s life. The coroner at the time said the baby would have survived 15-20 minutes and they didn’t raidthe fridge at Cielo.

    A true Christian would have understood Doris Tate’s desire for justice

    Equally, a true Christian might also have recognized that there was more going on there than just a desire for justice, no matter how harsh that seems. She went beserk when Suzan LaBerge forgave Tex and came to bat for him at a parole hearing, saying her mother would roll over in her grave, a woman she’d never even met. I wonder how she would’ve responded to Debra in 2016 saying this to Tex: “Mr. Watson, I would like you – I would like to have meetings with you. I would like to come and visit with you without counsel. I would like you to make me understand. There are other people in this room that would like the same thing although you have never offered that. I’m extending that gauntlet to him and let’s see what kind of Christian he is and what kind of Christian his counsel is. I want to see. Let me see. Let me understand. I really would like to believe that it’s all okay but in my heart right now, sirs and ma’am, it is not okay”

    Sory folks, that was long one !

  54. Pam says:

    Fred, I thank God that you’re not sitting on any of the parole boards for these killers. Your defense of them is scary!

  55. Stephen Craig says:

    I’d like to address Fred’s response to my “born bad” comment of yesterday. Although I appreciate your thoughts, I respectfully disagree. Obviously, since when I since we’re discussing the Manson Case, being “born bad” means the ability to kill another human being. When you refer to a “particular circumstance brings out a particular action in a person, you can’t know that you’re not one of the “born bad” people (and I’ll assume here you’re referring to taking the life of another human being), I will readily admit that, if under a certain set of circumstances I could theoretically take the life of someone else, especially in order to protect my children, my loved ones, or even myself. For instance, if someone breaks into my home and begins to brutalize my family, believe me, I’ll do what I have to do to protect them. But then, does this circumstance, this “killing” make me ” born bad”? You see, for me at least, when you read the accounts of these particular crimes, the details of the acts of violence are staggering. I can’t even begin to imagine what it was like to actually experience it. For a person/persons to drive to a location, enter the home(s), intent on killing, physically manhandling the victims, trying them up, listening and ignoring their please, etc… what “circumstance” forced them to do this? What circumstances forced these particular offenders to do what was done at the Tate/LaBianca’s home those night? I’ll assume you’ve seen the crime scene photos? What kind of “influence” allowed for that butchery? I guess what I’m trying to say is that my “reality” is that there are those who have the capacity to kill as these killers did, and those who don’t; that these people lack empathy for others to such a degree that they were able to commit the crimes they were convicted of. I remember recently reading a book (the title of which now eludes me) where the author, after communicating/visiting both LVH and PK, still, even though she supports LVH’s bid for parole, has difficulty the brutality she visited upon Mrs. LB, and the lack of empathy she
    displayed toward the victims. I truly believe these people possess a characteristic, a trait, we do not.

  56. Cybele Moon says:

    I’ve often wondered about that too Stephen.

    Fred, you always bring up some interesting points though I don’t always totally agree. You tend to show the other side of the coin which is why I once asked if you were a Jesuit ( the famous devil’s advocate so to speak). As far as that goes I do not wish eternal damnation on anyone. I struggle with “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” If they have found their own redemption that’s good and that’s separate from whether we want them out of prison or not. Some may have a shot at getting out and that seems possible now.

    I am not sorry that they have spent almost 50 years in prison given the savagery of the murders. I’m on Tate’s side about that and whether they raided the fridge or not, her nephew did slowly die inside his butchered mother.

    We cannot know what kind of people they will be once released. Being in prison and being out are two different worlds. I only hope if they are released that they will fade into anonymity as opposed to being anti heroes or celebrities or heaven forbid held up as examples of long suffering political victims of the justice system. But I suppose that is inevitable too. People are still cashing in on the Manson name with books and movies 50 years later.

  57. Fred Bloggs says:

    @Stephen: To a large extent I concur with your last post. It’s a complicated subject and there are no easy answers and I mean no disrespect when I say that I find the ‘born bad’ theory somewhat easy.
    Earlier, I said that I’d worked with 4 kids that went on to commit murder. Two of them were among three of the funniest people I have ever known and there really was nothing in the years I knew them that indicated where they would end up. I guess what I’m saying is that for any of us, there could be all kinds of circumstances and combinations of circumstances that could bring us to the point where we’d actually be prepared to take a life. It’s a bit like all those guys that say they’d never hit a woman. None of them might have that intent but who knows what situation could occur that could end with them doing just that.
    Personally, I think the TLB killers ‘got bad’ along the way, in terms of murder.

    Pam says:
    Fred, I thank God that you’re not sitting on any of the parole boards for these killers. Your defense of them is scary!

    I can understand that but I honestly do not think that you truly are interested in what I’m saying.
    Firstly, defending someone like Tex comes from a position of wanting to be fair, not from saying he should be paroled. Have I argued he should be paroled ? My stance on Tex is that he is my brother in Christ and I have to be honest about my brother. If I were on one of the parole boards, I would not vote for him to be paroled. Not because I think he’d kill again or because I think he has no remorse or insight into how he ended up where he did. I don’t think he’d kill and I think he has more insight than any of the last two boards understand. The sheer magnitude of his activities do make those of the others smaller by comparison. I’ll always argue that murder is murder, but at the same time, saying that killing one person in anger in a bar fight, even though the perp meant it at the time, is the same as setting out with the intention to kill at random and killing 10 people makes no sense to me. If I were going to vote for Tex’s parole, it would be when he’s in his 90s ~ and that, provided that the good behaviour and remorse continued. God loving and saving a person does not let them out of their obligations on earth, particularly familial and criminal ones.
    I would not have voted to parole Bobby. Again, not because I think he’s a current danger, I don’t, but simply because his entire history literally from the moment he was arrested on the morning of August 6th ’69 has been one of duplicity. Even if one accepts his story of the mitigating circumstances that led to him being at Gary Hinman’s in the first place {and this has been his story since the mid 1970s}, just studying the available transcripts over the years, one can see how the story alters each time and the thing about parole is that as far as I’m concerned, it’s about more than simply remorse. After all, one could murder 12 people and then be truly remorseful 2 days later. Rehabilitation in the prison sense is preparing a person to rejoin society and over a 50 year period, Bobby has never given me confidence that he’s sufficiently put that past and its attendant mindset behind and away from him. Had he kept his mouth shut and kept his nose clean, he may well have been paroled some years ago.
    I can see why Pat continues to be incarcerated. Again, I don’t think she poses any risk but she can’t explain to her various boards how this unconfident, non violent woman for 3 hours of her life became an animal and because she’s tried a variety of measures, it eventually comes across as “she’s trying any old thing just to get out.” It also comes across as her trying to hide some truths that the board members are sure are there. Unlike Leslie who is articulate and can explain that she wanted to kill because she believed in this ordained mission, Pat just flubs and hence, gets nowhere.
    Up until the time Susan Atkins died, even though she’s {or was} a sister in Christ, I would not have voted for her parole. Her changing of stories and flip flopping was understandable before she followed God. The reason I earlier said she was borderline was because the flip flopping continued for the rest of her life and when you are the girl crying wolf, the day the wolf actually appears, no one is going to believe you.
    I would not have voted to parole Steve Grogan, certainly not back in 1985, not after only serving 14 years. Yet it is inescapable that he has kept his nose clean, turned his back on his past and been a productive member of society.
    I would not have voted to parole Charles Manson, even if from the day before he died, he began a new chapter of remorse and rehabilitation, simply because his 48 years in prison up until then spoke volumes.
    With Bruce, there are some questions that I would want to ask him as one brother to another that would go towards determining whether I would vote in his favour. As a Christian, I could ask questions in a way and with an incision that most parole board members wouldn’t be able to because spiritually, Bruce & I stand on the same bank of the river.
    With Leslie, I’d be more inclined to vote in her favour although it is by no means a foregone conclusion that I would.
    But to address Pam’s actual point ¬> I can and have done and will continue to defend every one of those people where I think they need defending. To say that Charles Manson was treated like toilet paper and I’m not surprised at the attitude he developed and pointing out those people in his history that bear responsibility for ill treating him is not the same as saying “He was innocent and should have been released” and shouldn’t be equated with such.
    Pointing out the truths of what Charles Watson said and how Debra Tate twisted those things in order to make him look worse than ever and saying I think his conversion to Christ was and is genuine, notwithstanding areas that bother me, is not a code for “He’s really a good guy and should have been paroled ages ago !”
    Saying that I think the former Guv’nor of California was wrong in his reasons for keeping LVH and Bruce in jail when they were between them recommended for parole 7 times by the people whose job it is to make that determination is not the same as saying that they should have been paroled. And so on and so forth.
    In a sense though Pam, you’re right. It is scary to be confronted with someone’s humanity when you don’t want to acknowledge it. When you want to shit all over them and someone says, “That’s not a great idea. They’re people too, even if they have erred in the worst possible way.”

  58. Fred Bloggs says:

    Cybele Moon says:
    You tend to show the other side of the coin

    You get that. Pam doesn’t. What I’m saying is there’s no need to be afraid of the other side of the coin. Sometimes it may overlap into one’s conclusion about where the killers should end up. But it’s not a fait accompli. Seeing the other side doesn’t mean “They must go free !”

    If they have found their own redemption that’s good and that’s separate from whether we want them out of prison or not

    I totally agree with that. I pointed out a few years back that if what Tex believed in actually was the truth, it wouldn’t ultimately matter if he died in jail. He’d still be free all the time he’s alive in prison. And I think he knows that.

    I am not sorry that they have spent almost 50 years in prison given the savagery of the murders

    Even if they had just slipped into the houses, shot everyone once and they died instantly, I would not be sorry that they’d spent so long in jail. I don’t like the death penalty and I do believe in life imprisonment. I also believe in parole, not as a right, but as something the state can grant in exeptional circumstances. There has to be some uniformity about how it is organised, hence setting a certain number of years before one is able to apply for it. Mind you, I’ve long thought the original 7 year tariff was way, way too short.

    I’m on Tate’s side about that and whether they raided the fridge or not, her nephew did slowly die inside his butchered mother

    When a person has to make something terrible on its own merits look worse, they’re clutching at straws and are beginning to show that they are not prepared to acknowledge that people may have a different view about that which they are defending. To kill an unborn child by killing his Mum is reprehensible. So why try to make it look worse, especially when actual solid evidence exists that shows what you are saying to be untrue ? Debra does not do herself any favours there.

    We cannot know what kind of people they will be once released

    That’s why this is such a passionate debate at many levels. What it shows is that there is something of an effort on all sides to try and get this right and to avoid the kind of situation that happened with Ed Kemper.

    Being in prison and being out are two different worlds

    True, but every person that comes out of prison has to adapt and learn to deal with this. Many do. Some don’t. The one thing perhaps in this particular lot’s favour is age. In a real sense, they’re in no worse a situation than many people in their 70s who kind of feel the world they’ve known slipping away from them.

    I only hope if they are released that they will fade into anonymity as opposed to being anti heroes or celebrities or heaven forbid held up as examples of long suffering political victims of the justice system

    Unfortunately, even if their choice was to fade away, would certain strands of the public and media let them ? I mean, here we are, writing on a blog about them. If “XX” was released tomorrow, would you have absolutely no interest in what they might be doing a year from now ? If “XX” was working in a dog kennel or a petrol station or a halfway house for prisoners and someone found out, in this day of camera phones, it would likely get out.
    As for being political victims, Guv’nor Brown has sealed that particular legacy along with the first board to say ‘yes’ to LVH.

  59. Cybele Moon says:

    very true Fred! We are fascinated and the media will always look for a story. I think what I meant was that I hope they don’t profit by their infamy with book deals and talk shows etc.

    I still think of that terrible case up here in Canada, and the famed “deal with the devil.” The wife of killer Paul Bernardo turned evidence against her husband for a lighter sentence. It was only after tapes came to light that law enforcement saw she was an eager participant in the rapes of young girls, two of whom were tortured and murdered. But the law is such that they could not recharge her. She served a 10 year sentence and then disappeared only to have the media find her and expose her living as a wife and now mother of two children. People were outraged to find her in their neighborhood and a member of the local PTA. You can imagine. She said she just want to live a “normal” life though she forfeited that a long time ago.

  60. Pam says:

    Cybele, in the book Restless Souls, Doris Tate discovered that Watson’s plan was to use his fame as a serial killer to earn his living
    He plan on becoming a TV minister and believed his notoriety would bring him a large audience and a huge paycheck. She called Watson’s conversion, “a wolf in sheep’s clothing.” Kudos to Doris Tate for exposing his true nature.

  61. Pam says:

    Yes, we can find excuses for Tex’s failures, he was in his early stages of conversion, it was a long time ago, his victim’s survivors are out to get poor Tex, but when to you see a pattern of behavior
    Tex’s failure to admit to the killing of Shorty and hanging Sharon tells you that he continue to deny the the truth At what point, do you see a pattern of behavior?

  62. Fred Bloggs says:

    Pam says:
    Yes, we can find excuses for Tex’s failures

    Name me one excuse I used ? I don’t excuse Tex’s behaviour, I try to understand and explain it. Like I said, unlike you, I’m not afraid to acknowledge things I may not be comfortable with. Neither am I afraid to take a stance that runs counter to the majority view, if that’s what I see. The simple reality here is that you are determined to refuse to even consider the possibility that Tex may have had a genuine conversion to Christ. Almost as though you’re saying that overnight perfection is the only basis on which you might consider such a thing. Even the New Testament writers died imperfect !
    But I don’t hold that against you because it’s clear to me that you know little, if anything, of what it means to be a Christian in a real day to day relationship with Christ, complete with all the difficulties that entails for our selfish human psyche.
    What I find interesting is that on the one hand, there’s those like you that refuse to acknowledge that this man just may have undergone change. Then there are those that can see that it might actually be possible, so they then say “well, if he was genuine, he wouldn’t try to get parole” or “he should tell the truth of what really happened during those murders.” Even something so simple as not being able to recall every detail, they wouldn’t accept that and throw every argument into the pot in support of how no one would be able to forget such a thing. In other words, it matters not what line Tex takes, he’s in a lose – lose situation.
    And you think he’s running a con game.

    but when do you see a pattern of behavior

    You just want to argue Pam, with a view that isn’t yours. I can see all kinds of negative patterns in Tex’s behaviour {as I can in my own and those of many others} which is precisely why I can see how God has been dealing with him {well, in part} and why I believe his conversion was genuine.

    Tex’s failure to admit to the killing of Shorty and hanging Sharon tells you that he continue to deny the the truth

    Well, it has never been conclusively proven that Sharon was hung and it has never been conclusively proven that he killed Shorty. You may not like that reality, but then, I don’t like lots of realities but have to go along with them.
    The state can’t prove he killed Shorty so how in the world can you assert it ? When you have a situation where two of the people convicted of that murder tell contradictory stories about who was actually there, you have more than doubt because their words can’t be trusted.
    As for Sharon being hung, that was the opinion of one person. It never passed into the court record, why do you think that is ? So the reality here is that the things you use to show that he is a charlatan and wolf in sheep’s clothing fall flat and at best, are opinion. The opinion of a number of people {including myself, for what it’s worth}, but opinion.
    Be careful of relying too solely on the words of Doris Tate. There’s little she actually proved and was full of her own opinions which people like yourself see in a book and grant the status of fact.

  63. Pam says:

    “Not only was my daughter murdered by you, Mr. Watson, but I have to live with the fact you make money out of the tortures you have inflicted on her.” I stand with victims, not monsters who murder innocent babies in their mother’s belly and t think their finding God entitles them a get out of jail free card.

  64. Cybele Moon says:

    Fred and Pam, I don’t blame Doris Tate for being full of opinions. Yes, she could be a bit extreme but she was angry and who can blame her. She wasn’t perfect either. She did a lot for victim’s rights and was recognized by the President for it at the time She wanted to keep them in prison and I’m with her on that. Fred mentioned her meeting with Susan Laberge. Well, I have to say that when I read about that I thought Susan was a nut case, Christian or not, similar to those women who fall in love with men on death row. Whether or not they walk with God is between them and God. And it’s not just Christians who walk a spiritual path. Any sincere spiritual discipline takes a lot of work and letting go. I admit I can’t determine the state of Tex Watson’s soul but the monstrous actions of his younger days cannot be forgotten or dismissed just because he has found the Lord. It’s like LVH saying that she knew she had to pay for what she did but she didn’t think it would be for the length of time it has become! Huh?

  65. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Didn’t have time to read in depth all that has been written, let alone form opinion or debate as was.

    I can say that anyone who holds the true victims to a higher standard of what they say to or about the very one (s) who tortured and murdered their kin has a damn screw loose. Etiquette and finger wagging on how to communicate to a convicted murderer?There is NO equation. Doris Tate had to earn her right as a victim by changing legislation and I say piss on each and every one of these Mansonites. May they all chap their butts on the devils carpet.

    While certain things we will never know as it was not corroborated at trial–Tate hanging, Tate’s blood outside, etc. the only persons alive are the very ones who committed the crimes. Does anyone really think you can believe a freakin’ butcher of 7 people and an unborn child? Really? No reason to lie about what truly happened? No reason to lessen their guilt? Nothing self serving in their finding of God (another one for as you know CM was God to them) creating a ministry, fathering children while he butchered the unborn and his mother. But I digress, this is not about CTW, this is about Cupid.

    I get so sick of the law changing to suit the needs of these aging criminals, these youthful offenders as well. Ask the victims what they think…Hey Gary! Did you know that because of poor Bobby’s age and incorrect diaper changing by Mommy he’ll be paroled in his old age? How many years did your days of your torture age you? Yep, your murder stopped your aging didn’t it? Did that lessen the pain inflicted because sheesh, afterall, he was soooo young and easily influenced by the counter culture and wanted to impress Manson and BLAH BLAH BLAH.

    He’s a murderer. Let him rot until his shriveled raisins flush down his stainless steel toilet.

    Oh, and Happy New Year folks!

  66. Cybele Moon says:

    No justice,
    B.B. I believe, was a narcissistic creep from the get go and very full of himself. He was “Lucifer Rising” (the name of a movie he starred in?). As I said in an earlier post what is the justice system thinking! Elderly parole and youthful offenders- no longer dangerous etc. He tortured a man for 3 days before killing him. He sold child porn in prison. – and now they want to let him out. Why? Is it financial?

    Happy New Year to you too.

  67. Pam says:

    “Etiquette and finger wagging on how to communicate to a convicted murderer.” LOL!Pam

  68. Fred Bloggs says:

    Pam says:
    I stand with victims, not monsters who murder innocent babies in their mother’s belly and think their finding God entitles them a get out of jail free card

    I don’t disagree with that in principle.
    By the time Doris Tate died, Tex was 21 years into his sentence. For 14 of those years, he was eligible for parole. Not “was to be given parole,” just eligible to apply for it. So, when a parole board asks a Tex why on earth he should be considered for parole, a Tex can only throw into the mix everything that he finds to be positive about his situation, of which God is one. I don’t think he thought that saying that he found God would entitle him to a ‘get out of jail free’ card and if he did, he was in for a rude awakening, particularly bearing in mind what Stephen Kay had said to him and about him in 1978. Right from the start, him saying that he’s found God has been greeted by the authorities with cynicism and underlying doubt. They tend to point out that Charles Manson was his God at one point and that he’s just substituted one crutch for another. So for the authorities to equate God in Tex’s life with Charles Manson {and this, since his first parole hearing} simply sounds the death knell to anyone that thinks that Tex has been running a con and that he has seen being a Christian as a cute quick way out of jail.

    Cybele Moon says:
    I don’t blame Doris Tate for being full of opinions. Yes, she could be a bit extreme but she was angry and who can blame her

    I don’t blame her at all. But neither will I make the mistake of according everything she said as solid, die hard, unshakable truth. Everything she said wasn’t.

    She wasn’t perfect either

    Well, I’m glad you said it. Very few people connected with this case have any real objectivity because most people take a side. It’s important to understand the sides that people take. It’s also important to understand that they represent only one side of the mountain.

    She did a lot for victim’s rights and was recognized by the President for it at the time. She wanted to keep them in prison and I’m with her on that

    She did great work for victim’s rights and I don’t blame her at all for wanting to keep the perps in prison. I mentioned earlier to Pam that at the point that Doris died, the perps were 21 years into their sentences. From that perspective, she did the right thing. 21 years for those murders is way too short.

    her meeting with Susan Laberge. Well, I have to say that when I read about that I thought Susan was a nut case, Christian or not, similar to those women who fall in love with men on death row

    I can understand you saying that but I don’t agree with you. Personally, I feel that Suzan {at the time a Christian for only 4 years} had her heart in the right place but was showing a certain immaturity in going to bat for Tex.
    There’s not many that could even begin to understand where she was coming from. I wouldn’t be surprised if she looked back at that now and concluded that it was “too soon.” The thing is though, when a Christian speaks of being born again, they’re talking about a complete overhaul and starting over ~ with all the errors that that may entail. When we’ve seen the kind of changes God brings to our own existence, it’s easy to assume that this occurs in every life. So Suzan doubtless was able to recognize that Tex had gone through deep seated changes and probably wouldn’t be a danger to society. In that, I actually agree with her. However, 19 years simply was not {in my opinion} a sufficiently long enough time to serve for 7 murders.
    I think it’s unfair to characterize Suzan as a nut case. She did something that few could ever actually do ~ she forgave the murderer of her Mum and stepdad. She’d been in communication with him for a long time and not revealed who she was. Here in England, there has for quite a time been this programme whereby offenders meet with their victims or victim’s families so that they have to confront some of the reality of the impact of their actions. In some instances, it does all concerned some good.
    The women that ‘fall in love’ with death row inmates are a different matter altogether but not necessarily that different to people that are interested in people in jail in the first place.
    But I’ll tell you something about God. Forgiveness is at the heart of God’s nature and if those that follow are going to reflect God in their daily lives, then God is more than likely to communicate to a person that they have to forgive someone that they just don’t want to. It’s happened to me; it happens to most of us !

    Whether or not they walk with God is between them and God

    Yes and no. There is the aspect of the relationship that is between them and God but whether anyone likes it or not, there is a social dimension that is inescapable.

    And it’s not just Christians who walk a spiritual path. Any sincere spiritual discipline takes a lot of work and letting go

    I’m not denying that. But Tex is a Christian and that’s the path he walks and therefore, whenever people cast aspersions about the sincerity of his faith, it’s a conversation that touches on Christian living that is going to follow. And if someone is living that life too, all the better because they’re in a position to point things out that one can’t do generally.

    I admit I can’t determine the state of Tex Watson’s soul but the monstrous actions of his younger days cannot be forgotten or dismissed just because he has found the Lord

    I don’t recall arguing that they should be. In fact, with someone like Tex, the monstrous actions of his younger days should never be forgotten ¬> it’s that that demonstrates just what an incredible thing Christ has done in his life.

    It’s like LVH saying that she knew she had to pay for what she did but she didn’t think it would be for the length of time it has become! Huh?

    Well, it is unusual to have been in prison for as long she has for what she did, same with Bobby. With Bobby, he only had himself to blame. He did not engender confidence that he was truly remorseful, what with all the alterations of his story and attitude. Whether she stays in jail till she dies or not, at the very least one can’t say that about LVH. To give some context, when LVH first went into prison after being convicted, there were two women on death row. Both those women were paroled within 10 years and never reoffended. Their murders were brutal. As well, when LVH got a 2nd trial, the jury was hung. And the prosecutor of the third trial made all kinds of encouraging noises about her progress and his belief that parole was almost just around the corner. Whether rightly or wrongly, most of us in such a position would be hopeful of parole in a time not approaching 50 years.

  69. snoop says:

    Pam,

    Tex is not a real human being. He is a malignant narcissist and feels absolutely nothing for his victims or their families . He told the truth one time in his life, to Voytek saying “I am the devil and here to do the devil’s business” .

  70. Cindi says:

    I always wondered if Tex is openly against abortion as a “Christian” ? He probably avoids the issue as he killed a baby two weeks before birth. . He is the devil’ son.

  71. Fred Bloggs says:

    NoJusticeNoPeace says:
    Didn’t have time to read in depth all that has been written, let alone form opinion or debate as was

    Well, maybe you should because then your comments will at the very least be informed instead of just wanting to shout out your already formed opinions.

    I can say that anyone who holds the true victims to a higher standard of what they say to or about the very one (s) who tortured and murdered their kin has a damn screw loose

    Being a victim or related to a victim does not mean that one should be allowed to descend to the level of the perp. It doesn’t mean one should be allowed to twist the truth, misrepresent the truth or lie. It has got nothing to do with holding the victim/family of victim to a higher standard, but rather, holding everyone to the same standard. If your version of justice or fairness means that you can jettison truth and let victims say whatever they want, as they say in France, bon chance.

    Etiquette and finger wagging on how to communicate to a convicted murderer?

    As funny as Pam found that, you’ll have to explain to me what you mean by that. You see, I have a screw loose and I don’t understand.

    Does anyone really think you can believe a freakin’ butcher of 7 people and an unborn child? Really?

    It depends on what. And that can’t be done without weighing up what the freakin’ butcher has said. If your default position is that they are going to lie, no matter what, then you really are in no position to talk about justice.

    No reason to lie about what truly happened? No reason to lessen their guilt?

    You’re really going to have to explain to me how someone that has murdered 7 people including a pregnant woman near the end of her term can lessen their guilt, especially when they fully admit they did these things. I’m not saying they can’t incidentally. But I’ve come across a few people that have made that assertion and whenever I’ve asked how this is possible, the conversation dies.

    Nothing self serving in their finding of God

    This may or may not surprise you, but the days when someone might be impressed that someone has turned their back on their old life to become a Christian went long before this century began. I’ve mentioned Bob Dylan a couple of times; well when he became a Christian, he got flak on every side, from music critics, from churches, from fellow rock stars, from his fans. You can multiply that story a thousand fold to people all over the world in all kinds of situations from those in some Islamic countries that risk getting killed to those in the west that lose many of their friends or get called bible bashers or other such fanciful names. Anyone that thinks it’s going to help them get out of jail is like a racehorse walking around with blinkers on.
    Back in 2005 Watson had resigned himself to spending the rest of his life in jail. At parole meetings, he keeps talking about what God has been doing in his life, even though it is manifestly not getting him anywhere.
    Self serving ?

    But I digress, this is not about CTW, this is about Cupid

    If you had read all the posts, you’d know what I think about Bobby and why.

    I get so sick of the law changing to suit the needs of these aging criminals, these youthful offenders as well

    Even God changed laws that God had given to the people.
    The reality of human life is that laws change. They need to. As time goes by, we sometimes understand more about particular situations that we didn’t at the time certain laws came into being. Even you must know that young people will do things with a certain disregard for consequences that they may not do if they’re in their 50s. Now personally, I’m not sold on the ‘youthful offenders’ bit, not in terms of parole. Nor am I sold on the elderly parole idea. For me, the wheel upon which these matters turn is the behaviour in prison over a lengthy period of time of the particular perp. Have they demonstrated remorse ? Have they turned their lives around ? Have they been productive in jail ? Have they stayed out of trouble ? Even with these and other considerations, it’s by no means a foregone conclusion that an inmate is ready to leave prison but these are indications and as has been agreed in a few debates recently, it is always a risk.

  72. Cybele Moon says:

    Fred, About Suzan, yes I get it, that it frees people to find forgiveness in their heart but to go as far as becoming friends with someone who bayoneted your parents to death and fight for their release is quite another. I am not that good a Christian that I could wipe the slate clean as though it had never happened and invite the murderer for dinner as my brother in Christ, so am not able to come at it from your perspective. Being a good Christian obviously doesn’t mean that you are prudent, sane or wise. For some reason I think the fact that they were given their lives and time to reflect and change was good enough. They refused Atkins so I somehow doubt they will give Watson or Krenwinkel their freedom. LVH has the best chance though I think they all should remain where they are. We shall see.

  73. Fred Bloggs says:

    Cybele Moon says:
    He sold child porn in prison – and now they want to let him out

    That stuff was pretty sickly but I wouldn’t describe it as child porn. That’s possibly a little strong. This is an interesting thread about it all. I hope you have a strong stomach.
    I’m really curious about the hearing of Bobby, I hope the transcript is out soon. I’m intrigued by what was so drastically different about this one

  74. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Fred Bloggs says:
    Well, maybe you should because then your comments will at the very least be informed instead of just wanting to shout out your already formed opinions.

    Informed enough that do not require me to regurgitate your impotent, selected novella responses. Devil advocation does not equate understanding, no matter how many times you use synonyms.

    Being a victim or related to a victim does not mean that one should be allowed to descend to the level of the perp.

    For you or anyone to make the statement that a victim’s verbal responses or legal action to A MURDERER of their kin is somehow poor etiquette and now the victim is on equal footing with A MURDERER is pure bull shit. Or in France, le bull shit.

    As funny as Pam found that, you’ll have to explain to me what you mean by that. You see, I have a screw loose and I don’t understand.

    Screws fall out, it’s an imperfect world Fred.

    I’ve mentioned Bob Dylan a couple of times; well when he became a Christian, he got flak…

    Talk about blowin’ in the wind.

    Have they demonstrated remorse ? Have they turned their lives around ? Have they been productive in jail ? Have they stayed out of trouble ? Even with these and other considerations, it’s by no means a foregone conclusion that an inmate is ready to leave prison but these are indications and as has been agreed in a few debates recently, it is always a risk.

    Remorse is relative. Turning your life around in prison, where you have three hots and a cot, education, medical, etc. I don’t give a rat’s tit nor tail if Cupid has educated himself, found another God to hide behind, work in an office due to arthritis while in prison. That has nothing to do with why he is in prison. You ignore the victim and their plight, forever being that devils advocate aka shit stirrer. I don’t think Gary Hinman would be thrilled to know that his friend, the one he trusted who torturously murdered him, has remorse, a degree and has ‘turned his life’ around while not paying for it, not earning it, not working for it as the every-day man does…or say how Gary Hinman did during his lifetime before it was snuffed out?

    This make Cupid special because?

    This indicates to me steaming bull pucks.

  75. Fred Bloggs says:

    Cybele Moon says:
    it frees people to find forgiveness in their heart

    That’s kind of an outcome but I doubt that anyone forgives thinking “Oh well, now I’ll find freedom in my heart.” Forgiveness is not an easy thing at all. It’s a harder thing to do than we give credit for.

    but to go as far as becoming friends with someone who bayoneted your parents to death and fight for their release is quite another

    That demonstrates that the forgiveness is real and not just lip service. But if one is going to let Christ do his thing, forgiveness is actually mandatory. It might take years before one can forgive a particular offence but ultimately, that person has little choice. It’s important that people understand what forgiveness is ~ it’s no longer holding the offence against a person/nation/race/organisation, whatever, when in actual fact you have the right to do so. For the Christian, it’s predicated on the fact that we’ve been forgiven by God when God didn’t have to so you can see why it would be contradictory for someone professing to reflect and be powered by God not to do so. It’s a way of demonstrating real love.

    not that good a Christian that I could wipe the slate clean as though it had never happened and invite the murderer for dinner as my brother in Christ, so am not able to come at it from your perspective. Being a good Christian obviously doesn’t mean that you are prudent, sane or wise

    I’ll be honest with you ~ the term “good Christian”, though I understood what is meant by it, plays no part in my thinking. Christians aren’t good, just cleaned up by God. Now obviously different people will debate that and have their own thoughts on it but one has to be realistic and know what could lurk within and make sure it never gets the chance to breathe.
    As for being prudent and wise, you’re right, just giving it all over to Christ doesn’t ensure these things although trust and experience will help reach that point. It’s a life, it has to be lived in the real world, like any other and growth should happen.

    I think the fact that they were given their lives and time to reflect and change was good enough

    They were highly fortunate. Particularly when you consider that not long after, that ruling was revoked. It should always be remembered that it wasn’t their particular cases that were overturned. It wasn’t even with their cases in mind. It was a general principle of death being a cruel and unusual punishment. I happen to agree. I don’t think life without parole is cruel and unusual though.

    They refused Atkins so I somehow doubt they will give Watson or Krenwinkel their freedom

    In some ways, the climate was rather different in 2009. There was none of this “youth offenders” and “elderly parole” stuff and also, it’s Susan Atkins ! I don’t think she would have stood any more chance of getting out if she were still alive though. We forget she was convicted of the Hinman murder as well as TLB. She actually had more murders against her than Tex and Pat ! And she was perceived as really dangerous.

  76. Fred Bloggs says:

    @No JusNo Peace:

    As I suspected ~ on this particular topic, you got nothing.

  77. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Aww, c’mon Fred. Don’t let a difference of opinion make you play in another sandbox. I just like my sandbox lump free.

  78. Cybele Moon says:

    Fred, Having read a little of the mystics and great spiritual writers like Thomas Merton etc I do know that a spiritual journey is to rise above human nature or try and yes forgiveness is an act of the will sometimes and not of the heart, and yes amazing transformations can take place. I think many people do come to a place of forgiveness and love. To accept that God wants us to forgive doesn’t mean I have to make Tex Watson my friend if I don’t like him or have anything else in common with him. Anyway Fred you have almost made this into one of those spiritual retreats. Yes we humans like a little vengeance now and then!

    On a funny note, No justice just don’t forget the sandbox scooper. There’s always some creature that will poop in it when you aren’t looking. Cats especially are great opportunists if you forget to put a lid on it. And welcome back to the fray! Some lively debate going on!!

  79. Fred Bloggs says:

    NoJusticeNoPeace says:
    Aww, c’mon Fred. Don’t let a difference of opinion make you play in another sandbox. I just like my sandbox lump free

    Hey, like I said in a previous thread, I like your passion in debate and I enjoy our strands of the conversation.
    We’re cool.

  80. Fred Bloggs says:

    Cybele Moon says:
    you have almost made this into one of those spiritual retreats

    While I won’t say ‘sorry’, I will say that I didn’t intend it and I certainly didn’t want to bore anyone. I try to avoid it but once in a while, an attempted explanation of a little bit of the mindset of a Christian, particularly one in jail, might prove useful to someone.

    Yes we humans like a little vengeance now and then!

    Which isn’t unusual. Because the Christian knows they must forgive, it’s easy to misinterpret vengeance. But if forgiveness is a requirement of God of those that choose to follow, it naturally follows that vengeance in itself is not a bad thing. God acts in vengeance sometimes. If one takes biblical writings seriously, God regulated vengeance so it can’t be intrinsically sinful/bad. It was regulated so it would be proportionate. There’s awful old testament stories of entire cities being wiped out because of one act perpetrated against a person. It’s like “Planet of the apes” sometimes !
    In the school I work in, sometimes kids will come to me and tell me of some misfortune that has befallen them at the hands of some other kid. We have to be seen to be “responsible” and “peaceful” but more often than not, what I really want to tell them is “just go and whap such and such on the bridge of the nose ! They won’t bother you again.” It doesn’t happen so what sometimes ends up happening is that parents get involved and they do the fighting !

  81. snoop says:

    Bobby, like the others have lived a pretty kush life in prison. During most of their incarceration , California prisons were like country clubs . They also were celebrities with special privileges, and they always had a lot of money on their books.

  82. Lee says:

    Listen, I know I have been a hard ass when it comes to any of these people getting out of prison. I honestly do not think they would ever murder another person and would live out the rest of their lives in dusty anonymity and that’s all well & good, but……that cannot undo the absolutely horrible crime they committed. I’ve read over & over on various blogs how other people who have committed similar murders were released, yaha, yaha, yada….and how unfair & political it is not to let the Manson murderers out, etc. All of this is irrelevant to the families of the victims that were left in their wake. For example, Gary
    Hinman’s mom died just a few years later from heartbreak. She suffered beyond imagination. Just think about what Gary’s family had to go through. Claiming the body, choosing funeral arrangements, cleaning his house out and putting it up for sale….just realizing what their son went through before he died, how much he suffered, then left to rot….and on top of all of this, reading & hearing about what an arrogant prick Bobby Beausoleil has been while in prison. Claiming for decades that it was ultimately Gary’s fault that he sold bad drugs. Four years after the murder, he then strutted into a courtroom, got up on the stand like he was performing and announced how unfair his “brothers & sisters” were being treated and “you better hope I never get out.” Also, all the years upon years of him changing his story, blaming the victim and not telling the absolute truth, which is he went to Gary’s house on Manson’s orders to get anything of value from Gary and if he didn’t comply, hurt him. Now that Bobby Beausoleil is an old man begging to be released, everyone feels sorry for him. This isn’t about how much time he’s served. This isn’t about if he’ll do it again, which everyone knows that’s a big hell no. This isn’t about Debra Tate even. This is about Gary Hinman’s savage torture-murder. Bobby Beausoleil must stay in prison for the rest of his life for what he chose to do to a fellow human being.

  83. Cybele Moon says:

    Indeed Lee! Apparently Steven Parent’s mother died of a broken heart not long after. So many damaged and broken families came out of this murder spree. There are such far reaching and tragic ramifications in these cases that them remaining in a prison system which as you say is not exactly like the black hole of Calcutta does not seem unreasonable.

  84. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Lee you’re spot on again. Read his parole hearing transcript where he is busted for placing tape to keep a restricted door from closing–he didn’t want to interrupt a meeting going on in the room with the door he was supposed to go in and out of. Geez, he forgot he was in prison and didn’t think about it because you know, he’s been there for so long.

    Yeah, go read it and see how remorseful he is. Arrogant bastard.

  85. Lee says:

    Yes, NoJustice, I’ve read every, single transcript. The excuses this man comes up with are downright embarrassing. The tape thing was especially ridiculous. He forgot he was in prison. Uh, okay……

  86. Robin Bailey says:

    Glad Bobby has this grant for parole. Hes done a lot with his life,all for the better. I think his case was irrelevant to the Tate ,Labianca case. I do not think it was right to hold that against him. That’s a prejudice. All prisons are hard,you either conform, or you dont,and to those who have deserve a release,andro thise who dont,they stay. To the people who think prison life is Kush,well how would you know? Have you been incarcerated in one? You’re condemning our penal system. Therefore I cant say much about your intelligence. The man has been there nearly 50 years. He deserves this relwasr.

  87. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Glad to re-read your crap there Robin. Done lots with his life? How about the one he took? Yanno, the one he tortured? His ‘friend’?

    Pull your noggin out your narrow minded butt and maybe, just maybe you’ll have more to say about “intelligence.”

  88. Richie says:

    Cupid’s old, sick and no threat to anyone. He’s guilty of a terrible murder, but 49 years is punishment enough!

  89. Lee says:

    See?! I knew it. People feel sorry for poor, old sick “Cupid.” He’s served enough time? Invading the home of a friend, beating this friend over the head with a pistol, holding him captive afterwards with a throbbing head injury from the pistol whipping, then taunting him, telling him he should die, etc. BUT WAIT! It gets even better! Manson & Davis drive on over, Gary runs out and thinks he has been saved and Manson proceeds to slice his face & ear open with a sword all the while taunting him further. Manson & Davis leave and steal one of Gary’s cars. Then, more agony comes with Gary having a head wound & severe laceration to the face, held hostage by the people he thought were his friends, then stabbed in the heart three or four times to finish him off. BUT WAIT! It gets even better! These same savages that murder their friend write slogans in Gary’s blood on the wall, leave then go back a couple of days later and laugh about how the maggots were dining on Gary within an audible range.
    In closing, Bobby Beausoleil needs to be behind bars for the rest of his life!

  90. Cybele Moon says:

    what length of time is considered enough for such brutal murders I wonder!

  91. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Cybele, I would suggest, again, until hell freezes over should any Masonite be paroled. Do not forget this POShart was given the death penalty.

    His reprieve is life…in the hell hole he opted.

  92. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    http://www.cielodrive.com/gary-hinman.php

    According to Beausoleil, the group visited Hinman because Gary had sold him some bad mescaline and Bobby wanted his money back. Whatever the motive was, the conflict lasted 3 days. During which, Charles Manson and Bruce Davis stopped by. As soon as he arrived, Manson raised a sword and quickly struck Hinman in the head, slicing Gary’s left ear and face. Hinman asked Manson why they were doing this and requested him to take the others and leave. Manson and Davis immediately left in one of Hinman’s cars while the others stayed behind. Mary and Susan stitched up his ear with dental floss while Gary, who didn’t believe in violence, just kept on asking them to leave. It all ended on the 27th when Beausoleil finally killed Hinman, stabbing him in the chest twice. Bobby, Susan, and Mary took turns holding a pillow over his face. Beausoleil then wrote “POLITICAL PIGGY” and drew a paw print on the wall in Hinman’s blood in an attempt to make authorities think the Black Panthers committed the murder. Gary died on the floor with his prayer beads in hand, chanting “Nam Myo Ho Renge Kyo Nam Myo Ho Renge Kyo”, the chant of his faith.

    From the horse’s toot. “according to Beausoleil”.

    If only I could post the crime scene/autopsy photos. Then all you wanks who cry this POS has been “punished” enough…

    can trade places with the victims families and tell them how poor Bobby has had it so freakin’ hard.

  93. snoop says:

    Lee-

    No true emotions behind your typed words.

  94. Lee says:

    That’s what pisses me off, Justice. Every, single person involved, including crime partners Susan, Mary & Bruce have said that Manson & The Family were having roundtable discussions around the campfire about who they could get money for their desert trip. Gary was suggested. Bobby seems to think that he sounds less culpable and NOT a Manson Family member by stating it was drug related. He knows that his goose is cooked because he did what the others did. He followed Manson’s orders and is now grouped in with the Manson Family. Manson Family killers don’t get released from prison, but someone who killed on his own because bikers were threatening his life can be held less accountable. Bobby seems to have forgotten what he mouthed off in a courtroom and what he said to an interviewer to make himself look infamous. He also tries to lie about what he said to Capote during that interview. Straight up, he lies!! Please read:
    Please read Ella’s statement to police:

    https://rxstr.com/ella-jo-bailey-hinman-statement/

  95. NoJusticeNoPeace says:

    Great link Lee, thanks. And yes, the distance he tries to create between himself and Manson is sickening. This was as premeditated as murder can get. Horrific what Hinman went through.

  96. Cybele Moon says:

    Lee, – absolutely horrific evil!! And they thought this man was Christ!!? They are where they deserve to be.

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The People of the State of California Vs. Charles Tex Watson